AFPRB 2012

[The B Word]

Written Answers
Friday 10 February 2012

Armed Forces Pay Review Body

Question
Asked by Lord Craig of Radley

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a part of their commitment to the military covenant to implement the recommendations of the Armed Forces Review Body in full.[HL15377]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The Government believe that the recommendations of an independent body such as the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB) should constitute an integral part of the process used to determine the pay of the Armed Forces. An announcement about the 2012 Pay Review Body's report is expected to be made shortly.


When you wish upon a star...

:hmm:

[Kreuger flap]

"And this years pay award is........................................" Ta dah!!!!


A

http://www.igin.com/imgs_arts/Resources/Zero.GIF
Almost forgot, because stuff is more expensive this year we have decided to put up all housing charges.
Oh and we are going to lower all rates for allowances as you don't need the extra money. That's before we make you work as cheap labour security guards at the Olympics.

Apart from that I think the AFPRB has looked after your interests well in this years pay review.

[adminblunty]

Over the last couple of years the AFPRB headline % increase recommendations have been very close to the headline % specified in the Civil Service Pay remit document issued by HMT. Public Sector Pay - HM Treasury (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_pay_index.htm). The Civil Service Pay remit hasn't been issued yet and they are issued at the same time. There is currently a rumour that there is some debate between HMT and Cabinet Office about the Chancellors announcement of 1% increase for the public sector actually means. BBC News - Osborne confirms pay and jobs pain as growth slows (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15931086) Until that's resolved I don't beleive we'll see the AFPRB report. I could bore your with the details of the rumour however I won't.

[orca]

Surely the AFPRB will have to take a cut to pensions into account and therefore recommend a significantly increased pay deal.

No?:sad:

Really?:ooh:

How come?:confused:

Oh, I see.:hmm:

[Biggus]

I think that the minister describing the AFPRB as "independent" is stretching credibility somewhat....

It will be interesting to see if any members of AFPRB resign on principle. I believe in their last report they said they were "disappointed" at being told what to recommend (0%) for two years, and looked forward to returning to business as usual. However, they have now been told what to recommend for 4 years in a row, 2 years of 0% and two years of 1% or less. One has to question what is the point of the AFRPB (yes, I know they also look at allowances, charges, specialist pay, etc).


Having said that, even in the "good" old years you will find in the first paragraph of an AFPRB report the statement of the remit they have been given, which includes the government inflation target, and how much MOD can afford. Hence they are effectively told the maximum they can recommend (they only recommend, the government awards) from the start, hence they are never truly independent.

But will any of them resign - somehow I doubt it! :=

[Jumping_Jack]

The AFPRB is still required. Who else would recommend increases to accommodation and food charges during a pay freeze? :ugh:

[EODFelix]

Remembering of course that a 1% rise in the pay bill doesn't mean that all will get 1%. On the Defence Intranet answering a question that was posed to the Board PUS indicated that some may get more than 1% - others less (or no rise at all). It all depends on where skill shortages etc are!! To widen the scope a little various contractors on PAYD units are starting to make noises as the price that they are allowed to charge for the core menu is fixed by the AFPRB and so during the last year they have been unable to raise prices for food despite inflationary pressues in the retail market (as anyone shopping in their local Waitrose/M&S/Asda etc can confirm). Wait Out

[GalleyTeapot]

PAYD at a Lincolnshire base has resulted in a price increase for everything except the core menu since it was introduced in November. Standard of the core menu has reduced drastically in the same period.

[nice castle]

You know, I, nor anyone else, didn't see that coming! PAYD, what a monumental failure...

Sorry, back to AFPRB...

[TdotEdot]

Despite being on a pay freeze, it appears other people in the public sector have found a way to still receive pay increases once they reach the top of their pay band. From the Civil Service jobs website link - https://jobsfiles.civilservice.gov.uk/admin/fairs/apptrack/download.cgi?SID=b3duZXI9NTA1MDAwMCZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZkb2N fdHlwZT12YWMmZG9jX2lkPTExNjU0NSZ2ZXJpZnk9ZDY0ZmFmMGRkMWFlMjI 1ZjY5ZGUxM2FlMjc2MTNhYWMmcmVxc2lnPTEzMzA1MDA1MTEtMjNkMGJjM2U 2OWI3N2Q1YTIwODM3YTE2ZjkyMzQ4OGJhODk4NjllMA==:

Pay progression

Existing staff

Staff who meet the required performance standard progress to the target rate by means of annual pay award increases effective from 1 July. Pay ranges consist of milestones each of which is worth an increase of 1.02% over the milestone before.

Staff who meet the required standards will progress by a minimum of three milestones a year until they reach the target rate.

The target rate is the maximum consolidated pay point. Any increases above target rate will be paid as a non-consolidated, non pensionable bonus. Staff on the target rate who have met the required standards will move on to the new target rate and can receive a maximum payment of the value three milestones above the target rate as non-consolidated, non-pensionable bonus.

New Entrants

New entrants are eligible to receive pay progression subject to having met the required standards. They receive a pro-rata pay award according to their length of service.

Those employed for at least eight months on 1 July will progress by three milestones
Those employed for more than four, but less than eight, months on 1 July will progress by 2 milestones
Those employed for up to four months on 1 July will progress by 1 milestone

[Just This Once...]

I know the precedent was set previously but it is a shame that service personnel will get less then 28 days notice of their rent and other charges for the coming financial year.

Civilian rents cannot be adjusted in this way but I guess that this will be another example where the 'covenant' means we are disadvantaged compared to the rest of the country. Is anyone keeping a list of the covenant promises broken, perhaps as bingo cards in a manner to keep us amused?

[Wensleydale]

Remembering of course that a 1% rise in the pay bill doesn't mean that all will get 1%.


Performance related pay for JPA auditors?........

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Disgusting.

[ALM In Waiting]

It's normally released on or around the 21st March, going from previous years.

My bet is on 1% across the board, with above inflation level increases in food and accommodation charges....

[Melchett01]

My bet is on 1% across the board, with above inflation level increases in food and accommodation charges....

Aren't we still on year 2 of the pay freeze, or have I miscounted? I thought the 1% rise (or 1% cut if they manage to get inflation back to 2%) was Apr 13 onwards?

[Scuttled]

My understanding too.

[ALM In Waiting]

I appear to have been wishing the years away, you are quite correct as we did get a raise in 2010.

[Halton Brat]

The wheel does indeed turn full circle; the joys of the early/mid 1970's UK (electricity cuts/3 day week/Public sector strikes) included meagre annual military pay rises which were then obliterated by increased accomodation/food charges, often resulting in a net loss to the individual, compared to the previous year.

When Mrs Thatcher won the 1979 General Election, I seem to recall that we had x2 pay rises in one year; she was HM Forces pin-up girl for a while.........

HB

[tucumseh]

The original question mentions the Military Covenant.

The Government has established a committee to look into implementation. The Vice-Chair (at least) has e-mailed his constituents seeking input.

I answered (in a supportive manner) but wondered if all MPs have sought opinion, just those on the committee, or just mine?

[higthepig]

Just seen the signal, no pay rise for me and accomodation charges are going up, also got a letter stating that from Apr the LOA is reducing and the FFIR rate will remain at 1.14Euro to the GBP, even though the exchange rate has been well above that for at least 3 months. Now looking for the sugar that should have coated the pill........

[ALM In Waiting]

Hig, have the major points been released in a DIN then?

[Gericault]

Certainly has -20120313 DIB 2012/14: Armed_Forces_Pay_Award_2012-U‏

Gericault

[Could be the last?]

Can someone confirm that there is another cut in LOA?

[taxydual]

I don't know yet if this is pukka

2012 British Military Pay Award Chart (http://www.navycs.com/uk/2012-british-military-pay.html)

but, how come an American website publishes this?

[Jumping_Jack]

Office of Manpower Economics - OME (http://www.ome.uk.com/)

It may have been published on a US website, but the accompanying guff is wrong. It states a cap of 1% for 2012 was imposed....out by a year, 0% this year cap in 2013.

[NavyCS]

Jumping Jack, you are absolutely correct - it appears as I have totally screwed the pooch on this one. I miss read a Telegraph article of a few months back.

navycs.com is my hobby, I shall fix this mistake - my apologies to all for any confusion I have caused.

Respects,

NCCM Tom Goering USN, Retired.

[ALM In Waiting]

The reduction of the LSA levels to 180 days is welcome, but that's about it unless you are an SAC or below.

[WPH]

Wonder why they feel they have to justify food charge increases by citing raises in the RPI, but then don't draw the same conclusion when considering basic pay!

[wokawoka]

From the tables under the above link am I misunderstanding something there?

2010: Salary is X
2011: Salary is X
2012: Salary is X

Have we been frozen 2 years already? With a third one on the way?

I am sure I am being thick and that is not the case, but that is what the table seems to say. Can anyone point out my mistake?

[m0nkfish]

If they have decided our pensions should be based on CPI then surely they should also use this index for our food/accommodation rates??

[NavyCS]

wokawoka,

2010's number is a result of a 2% raise over 2009. 2011 was frozen, but with a £250 increase for those who made £21,000 or less - 2012 is also frozen, but with another £250 increase for those who make £21,000 or less.

[Melchett01]

If we add the current 2 year pay freeze to the 2x 1% rises over the period 2013-15 and then take into account Brown's need for public sector pay restraint under Labour to prevent rampant inflation leading to sub-inflationary rises in the 2000s, has anybody worked out what the cumulative net effect on Armed Forces real terms pay has been over the past decade or so?

And frankly, Brown's arguments about the need for pay restraint to prevent inflation taking hold were complete bollox even back then. A decent pay rise in line with inflation - not even above inflation - but in line with it wouldn't even touch the sides when compared with the size of bonuses and rises being dished out in the financial and corporate sectors. Then again, even in recession when our pay has been reduced in real terms, inflation is still rampant in spite of public sector freezes. If Brown couldn't see that other external factors such as commodity prices were more likely to contribute to an inflationary picture than the pay of an average airman, he really was more deluded than I first gave him credit for.

[wokawoka]

Thanks for the expelling NavyCS, I can fly but can't count.........

[ALM In Waiting]

Having read the report, it seems there will be quite a focus on Specialist pay and how it will be applied under the NEM (New Employment Model) in the future.

Seems they are keen for it to be further linked with retention and recruitment, and are after mechanisms for increasing and reducing it in line with particular specialisations manning levels.

Also it mentions the disparity between personnel on specialist pay spines and those receiving specialist pay.

Seems they are also keen for it to be renamed to something that reflects its use as a retention mechanism.

[high spirits]

.....and the great Pension raid may just be starting.

[Just This Once...]

Did anyone post a link yet? If not it can be found here:

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm82/8299/8299.pdf

Some strong words on SP:

3.29 We continue to hear concerns about MOD’s announcement that it will completely withdraw SP from those who submit notice to terminate. This could mean, for example, that submariners may be required to serve at sea for several months during their notice period without receiving the same SP as those working alongside them. While we understand that it can be argued that if someone has said they are leaving, SP has not served its retention purpose, we have a particular concern when the situation relates to someone who has already served a full career, so demonstrating the effectiveness of SP in retaining them to date.

3.30 We strongly encourage MOD to reconsider its decisions on reserve banding and on withdrawing SP from those submitting notice to terminate, before the announced cuts come in to effect.

The MOD’s strategic approach to recruitment and retention payments, including the respective rationales for pay spines and for SP. It is not clear to us why some groups are on pay spines, which provide certainty of long term payment (which is pensionable), while others receive SP which is in principle a temporary payment (and not pensionable), although in practice the expectation of many receiving it is that it will be permanent. The career-continuous basis of some SP reinforces this and appears to us to resemble a pay spine. Clarity on the underlying rationales would enable a strategic review of their appropriateness in relation to specific cadres and the potential interaction with other return of service commitments including FRIs.

[WPH]

At least it was recognised as a concern...

"However, we heard widespread concern that the combination of the pay freeze and the significant cuts in MOD allowances such as Home to Duty, while inflation remained high, implied a noticeable reduction in real income for many personnel. Many also robustly questioned whether our decisions not to make recommendations on base pay for those subject to the pay freeze, while making recommendations on accommodation and food charges, were compatible with our role as an independent review body."

[Hueymeister]

WPH - Just what I said to them...if we're having a pay freeze, pse freeze our charges....:ugh:

[GalleyTeapot]

"Para 2.26 In 2010-11 personnel had an average Individual Leave Allowance (ILA) entitlement of 52.5 days,"


An AVERAGE ILA of 52 days??

[higthepig]

An AVERAGE ILA of 52 days??

I suppose if you add PODL to your annual leave allowance you could get up to nearly 52 days, then you can't take it all, then you lose most of it when the next leave year starts.:ugh:

[Melchett01]

An AVERAGE ILA of 52 days??

I assume they are talking about the mean average rather than mode or median figure? If so, then not entirely unexpected if taken across all 3 Services.

Everybody starts with 38 days. Many will have a full 15 days to carry over which will give them 53 days leave from the start of the leave year. If they then go on ops they could add anywhere between 12 - 20 days post op leave to their leave total.

Others may have other leave issues to take into account e.g. sick leave or relocation leave which will add to their balance - for the year in question I had almost 80 days when you took into account being deployed at the start of the leave year with full carry over, 20 days POL and 5 days relocation leave on posting.

So all in all, I can understand where they got 52.5 from if it is an arithmetic mean. It can be slightly misleading though as it implies people aren't getting their leave. However, all it takes is a couple of years of not being able to take the extra carry over leave and it is very easy to carry 15 days every year whilst still using up your full quota of annual leave.

[Clearedtoroll]

Freezing increases in food and accommodation charges might seem like a reasonable thing to suggest, but I can think of several good reasons not to have done so and think the AFPRB have been sensible so far.

Firstly, it would muddy the water between pay and charges. If charges hadn't increased in line with what the rest of the population *theoretically* have to pay (as well as SP in private accommodation) then it would provide the government with an easy opportunity to say "look, we have given the armed forces an effective pay rise by cutting their charges in real terms". As it is, there is no way the government can argue that this is anything other than than a simple pay freeze.

Secondly, not increasing charges to compensate for a pay freeze is of no benefit to those who do not live in Service accommodation or eat in the mess.

Instead I think we should be pushing (admittedly not sure how) for the AFPRB to make recommendations for pay as they always have. If the government genuinely believes our pay and allowances 'compare favourably' to the private sector then they should let the AFPRB make this analysis in an evidence-based and auditable fashion. If the government feels the need to then decline the recommendations of the AFPRB for budgetary reasons then so be it. Personally, I think a temporary pay cap is probably necessary but the government should have the balls to decline the recommendations rather than preventing the AFPRB from doing its job. The AFPRB has said as much in its own report.

If the AFPRB cannot return to making uncapped recommendations next year then I would hope the members resign on the basis that their independence is compromised. Looking as the CVs of the members, I don't think it is too optimistic to think that might happen; none of them seem like 'yes men'.

Whatever happens, there is going to be a major discrepancy between what the AFPRB recommend and what the MoD believes it can afford. Whether that happens next year or gets hidden behind a cap for another few years will be interesting to see.

[VinRouge]

the 53 will include bank holidays, christmas, easter and any aoc's grant post inspection one imagines. PODL is not annual.

[Jumping_Jack]

For those blathering about the 52 days leave....read the report INCLUDING the footnotes!

6 Comprises Annual Leave Allowance, Seagoers Leave, Post Operational Leave and Authorised Absence. Does not include rest and recuperation, re-engagement leave and relocation leave.

[Climebear]

I can easily seen how that figure can obtained as a mean average. In 2010-11 my ILA was 75 days, comprising:

38 days Annual Leave Allowance (ALA)
15 days carried over ALA
1 day Authorised Absence (IIRC that was the Flt Lt's Wedding holiday)
21 days PODL.

On top of that I had 5 days relocation leave.

Of course there is a difference between a leave allowance and the amount of leave taken.

[teeteringhead]

I assume they are talking about the mean average rather than mode or median figure? ... and always be suspicious of "average" if they don't tell you which it is.

Got told that by a statistics tutor many years ago - and it's still true.

[Dunky]

I believe the phrase "lies, damned lies, and statistics" may be appropriate in this case.

[mayorofgander]

The smoke & mirrors from the AFPRB has obviously worked.....

All we are talking about now is the amount of leave anyone has instead of, the sh1t pay rise, the sh1t rise in charges, the sh1t reduction in LOA/HTD etc & the prospect of SP being messed around with...notwithstanding the pensions robbery to come.

Brilliant!!!

MOG:ok:

[baffman]

Agreed, MOG.

Clearedtoroll's post has not had the attention it deserves, in my opinion.

[Jumping_Jack]

Agreed. Indeed, when you read the report it becomes clearer that without the AFPRB sticking it to the MOD we could be paying a whole lot more. The MOD were very much pressing for higher charges accross all grades of accom from the worst to the satisfactory. :mad:

[unclenelli]

AFPRB2012 = T3 (by stealth)!




or at least part of T3 x stealth:
PAYD
Omlette (cheese, ham & onion) & chips - RAF Halton Lunch £1.80 (3 fillings standard for £1.35 + chips for an extra 45p) - Contract - ESS Compass
Omlette (cheese, ham & extra onion) & chips - RAF Waddington Lunch £1.75 (£1.35 for std 2 fillings + 40p extra filling) - chips free - Contract - ISS Mediclean
Omlette (cheese, ham & extra onion) & chips - RAF Marham Lunch £1.75 (£1.35 for std 2 fillings + 40 extra filling) - chips free - Contract - ISS Mediclean
Omlette (cheese, ham & extra onion) & spuds - RAF Marham Dinner £2.15 (£1.75 for std 2 fillings + 40p extra filling) - spuds free (Chips not on offer)

So a 2 filling omelette & chips can cost between £1.35 (Wad Lunch) - £2.15 (Marham Dinner) - Omelette not available at Halton Dinner (besides it would be £2.20 and also a waste of a "free" filling!)

ALL 4 DIFFERENT PRICES WHICH ARE CORE COST OR ABOVE TO VARYING DEGREES DEPENDENT ON FILLING, LOCATION AND TIME OF DAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME MEAL!!!!


I'm sure others can think up other T3xS examples!

[Ken Scott]

Unclenelli:

That's a major bit of omlette related research you've carried out......

[dctyke]

There will be egg on their faces over that!

[monkeymanagement]

Well you can't make .... I'll get my coat.

[unclenelli]

I've been travelling a bit lately on det prep.

[StopStart]

ALL 4 DIFFERENT PRICES WHICH ARE CORE COST OR ABOVE TO VARYING DEGREES DEPENDENT ON FILLING, LOCATION AND TIME OF DAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME MEAL!!!!

Capitals, bold and lots of exclamation marks? That's an awful lot of rage over 80p.

Empirically speaking I would've liked more data on number of eggs per omlette as well as the portion size of the chips/potatoes. Without this I'm afraid I find your presentation somewhat flawed. Comparing like with like however, it is apparent that lunch is £1.75 across the board (with an understandable additional 5p Home Counties weighting at Halton) although there are some additional filling discrepancies that need addressing. I would additionally need to see a breakdown of dinner costings across the board to draw anything further from this deeply depressing eggy survey. That said, I would suggest forwarding details of your OmletteGate findings to the AFPRB and, perhaps, the National Audit Office, who can deal with this scandal head on.

I look forward to hearing your further omlette pricing updates from Theatre. The work you are doing will help make this a country fit for the heroes of our Armed Forces. Or at least those that like omlettes.

PS. I fully expect to see some of the Pprune Grand Knights of The Holy Order of Airworthiness in here shortly, demonstrating quite categorically how omlette pricing is directly linked to airworthiness.

[downsizer]

PS. I fully expect to see some of the PPRuNe Grand Knights of The Holy Order of Airworthiness in here shortly, demonstrating quite categorically how omlette pricing is directly linked to airworthiness.

They won't be interested in omlettes, they are just concerned with the salami slicing. Nobody would eat a salami omlette surely?

[VinRouge]

does chorizo sausage count? I reckon that could be quite nice and continental. Bet its not core menu though.

On a more serious note, why is it that the majority (if not all) of commands are not on Pay as you starve? Is there a reason for this other than their lordships are holding out to the last possible minute before they get subjected to lips and arsehole sausages and a slice tescos value thin base pizza for lunch?

[BEagle]

Is there a reason for this other than their lordships are holding out to the last possible minute before they get subjected to lips and arsehole...

A taste with which they will be only too familiar in their rush for self-promotion, no doubt?

In the real world, you'd have to pay a lot more for a ham omelette and chips than £2.20:

Omelette and Chips

Served with two of the following fillings;

Cheese, Ham, Mushroom OR Tomato £5.30

Courtesy of the Station Café, Alton via 't Interweb. A fine establishment which describes itself as a 'Traditional Cafe catering for workmen, commuters, steam train enthuiasts, Watercress line users and motorcyclists, together with a van delivery service.'

Go upmarket a bit and a typical pub 'light bite' price would be £4.95 for a 2 egg omelette with chips, or £5.95 for the 3 egg version.

I loved this from (it had to be....) an American website:

Ham and cheese omelettes are so called because they have a ham and cheese-based filling.

No $hit, Sherlock!

[The B Word]

These people must have been eggstatic about this thread...

The Omelette Appreciation society | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Omelette-Appreciation-society/202827889789909)

:ok:

[The B Word]

PS Not too sure what they serve in the Mess in Auckland...:yuk:

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/406869_2771863331866_1116480214_3050653_2091331728_n.jpg

[VinRouge]

One of these?

Vomit omelettes and swims in rotten food: Inside the weird (and revolting) world of fraternities | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114399/Vomit-omelettes-swims-rotten-food-Inside-weird-revolting-world-fraternities.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

[HTB]

That looks like something my dog leaves on the kitchen floor when he's not feeling well.

Does it feature in the core menu? It's enough to make you want to bring marmite butties for lunch.

Mister B

[baffman]

All "offaly" amusing, but might it by any chance be possible to resume discussion of pay, charges and allowances, and what arguments can be submitted to the AFPRB on behalf of serving personnel for the ensuing year?

[unclenelli]

StopStart
All were 3 egg-omelettes
Chips were help yourself from the similarly sized chip scoops

I like omelettes - they are a known constant regardless of daily menu which may or may not be to your liking - unless you like MEATBALLS (in various guises) in which case EVERY day is to your liking!

I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the PAYD system depending upon filling, location & time of day.

I'm not sure how Trading standards would view charging 2 different prices for exactly the same meal at different times on the same day?
Would the mess allow you to pay for 2x at lunch and eat the 2nd at dinner?

80p/day = £178/yr (based on a 5 day week minus 38 days annual leave)

I'm sure you must agree, this is another pay-cut (or increase)-by-stealth depending upon your posting location/shifts!

Of course everyone is always able to Big-Up to Scoff, Supreme or Special, but that is a different meal for the extra cost, my gripe is 80p difference for exactly the same dish!


Don't get me started on sausages............

too late!!!!!
2 sausages on Monday lunch (with honey & mustard sauce) £1.35
2 sausages on Tuesday lunch (with Sage & Onion gravy) £2.50
both with a selection of carbs, bread & butter, veg, tea coffee etc

The only difference, gravy includes a 99p dessert which you didn't ask for, but still doesn't justify 16p difference for the change of sauce.
This is where the various PAYD companies are making their money from people who don't claim their dessert!

So since the introduction of PAYD, the people who don't eat desserts are still paying for it, only now it's twice a day!

[StopStart]

http://www.mortalkombatunited.com/images/smilies2/SmileySuicide.gif

[Ken Scott]

StopStart: don't be so harsh, it's attention to details such as this that has made the military what it is today.......