IR and MEP Renewals

[Yorky9]

Good afternoon Ladies and Gents.

Hopefully this subject hasn't already been Threaded to death already, apologies if it has.

Coming up yo my first IR/ MEP Renewal and I wanted to know if there were any schools anyone would recommend in the Greater London area.

I have already had some quotes from Stapleford and Wycombe Air Centre, with good feedback for both however unaware of the prices and quality of many others providers in the area.

I am keen to undertake the IR training in the Simulator and DA-42 for the MEP work. Most likely 3 hours in each.

Thanks in advance for your time

[Tsym]

Not to deter you from renewing your MEP, but as this is your first renewal, do you specifically need your MEP?

Instrument Ratings can be renewed by doing your test solely in a simulator each alternating year. If you want to renew the MEP at the same time, you would be required to do the whole test in the aircraft. As im sure you can appreciate, the price difference between the 2 is quite substantial!

Airlines look for the IR on a multi-engine aircriaft (ME-IR), whereas the MEP is just a nice addition - if you have no intention to fly MEP's in the next 12 months, there is little reason in renewing it. I'd advise you to let it lapse and renew the MEP next year when you would be required to do the IR in a real aircraft.

I would advise you to take a look at flying time aviation based out of shoreham. They have a fleet of DA-40/42 aircraft, and DA-42 FNPT2 simulators. They are situated by brighton, so not so far away!

They offer a IRR special at £490 inc VAT, which includes refresher training in the simulator, the test itself and the examination fee. This is extremely competitively priced, and having renting aircraft from them on a few occasions, I can only recommend their professionalism.

Check out Flying Time Aviation (http://flyingtime.co.uk/en/IR_revalidation_special) for more information!

Hope this helps!

[Yorky9]

Thank you very much for the heads up.

Although I am not in desperate to renew my MEP I would like to get some flying hours, so will consider both.

Either way I was planning to refresh IR in SIM and test, and undertake a couple of hours in DA-42, testing on MEP to get both done.

[smarthawke]

At Wycombe Air Park, Airways Flying Club have the Tecnam P2006T available for IR/MEP renewals (Wycombe Air Centre is now part of the same parent company as Airways Flying Club).

One done yesterday (post #17):

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/477316-renewing-mep-rating.html

[AucT]

Just a quick note:

One revalidates ratings and renews licenses. So the correct term perhaps should be "Revalidation of MEP". Excuse me for offtop.

[mcgoo]

Just a quick note:

One revalidates ratings and renews licenses. So the correct term perhaps should be "Revalidation of MEP". Excuse me for offtop.

Not true, you re-validate a rating that hasn't expired and renew it if it has expired.

[AucT]

Not true, you re-validate a rating that hasn't expired and renew it if it has expired.

Thanks for correction. Something new to learn everyday.

[truckflyer]

First question, why do you want to renew your MEP? Unless you have to much money!

Be sure you do your ME/IR renewal before expiry, within 3 months from expiry date, so you can do your renewal in sim.

Unless you have a job lined up with a Multi Piston, it is a waste of money to renew your MEP, completely useless.

ME/IR renewal is in the sim first time, normally 2 session practice in the Sim is enough, and do your ME/IR renewal.
I did mine at Stapleford, and they have the DA42 sim, cost around £800 if I recall correctly.

They did not even want me to do the second session, but I did that for my own piece of mind. They are to busy to bother to try to rip you off, which is good! But make sure you book in early, because exactly that, they are very busy there.

Forget about the MEP renewal, waste of money and time, unless you would like to do some pleasure flights, save the money in case you need to do another renewal next year, as that will be in the aircraft, but again you do not need a MEP to do that renewal as far as I can recall.

[ReleasePT]

Hi guys, can you confirm that we can do the ME IR revalidation every alternate year on the FNPTII sim without doing the revalidation of MEP together?

I've completed my MEP and ME IR last year, they will both expire on 03/30/2012. I'd like to go to the UK to do my revalidation at Shoreham because they offer an interesting package to revalidate only ME IR on the sim.

The problem is that my CPL JAA licence is from Portugal I contacted them to confirm if I could do all this before going to the UK and they keep saying that since the MEP will expire by the 03/30/2012 the ME IR, even if I try to do a revalidation before, will also expire together with the MEP.

So what they are saying is that I have to do the revalidation of both on the airplane in order to keep them valid for one more year. I really don't know what to say. Portugal and UK are both JAA members I thought they should have the same rules.

Any help?

I'm currently living in Switzerland, that means I can convert my Portuguese licence to a Swiss licence (Switzerland is also JAA member). I already contacted them to see if they authorize revalidation of ME IR on the sim. I'm still waiting for an answer but I think so because at least one flight school here in Switzerland offers revalidation biannual in the sim and biannual on the aircraft.

[Linda Mollison]

Release PT

I think that what the CAA is saying is that, if you do not revalidate your MEP at the same time as your IR, you will not be allowed to excercise the privileges of the IR in a m/e aircraft because your MEP rating will have expired.

However, if you have revalidated the IR you will still have a current IR i.e, its expiry date will be one year on from its current expiry date.

There is no point in revalidating/renewing your MEP unless you actually want to fly a m/e aircraft. The airlines are only looking for a current IR, not a current MEP. You have to revalidate/renew your IR within 7 years of its expiry date, in order to keep your ATPL ground exam credits. Not renewing your MEP, even for more than 7 years, does not affect your ATPL credits.

The only extra thing you have to do if you let your MEP lapse for over five years is the MEP 40 question written test. So, to answer your question, on alternate years you can revalidate your IR in the FNPT2 and it keeps it current.

Linda Mollison

[ReleasePT]

Thank you Linda,

The Portuguese CAA (INAC) actually told me that they cannot give me a licence with a date other then the 03/30/2012 because this is the date the MEP expires.

They say I cannot have a ME IR expiring the 03/30/2013 while MEP expires the 03/30/2012. They say it's illegal.

How does it appears on your UK licences on the "ratings to be revalidated" section?

On my licence it appears like this:

(Class/Type) / IR ----------- Validity
IR (ME) ------------ 31/03/2012
MEP (land) ------------ 31/03/2012
SEP (land) ------------ 31/03/2013

[truckflyer]

Important you get the facts clear when you speak to your CAA.

ME/IR and MEP, don't have anything to do with each other.

You can renew your ME/IR 3 months before your expiry date on your ME/IR, and you get full credit for the renewal date.

First year in the sim. You do NOT have to have a valid MEP to renew your ME/IR in the sim.

From what I have been told by my FTO, when you renew in the aircraft, your ME/IR, you also do NOT need to have a valid MEP.
However I am a little uncertain if you get a new MEP when you renew your ME/IR in the aircraft, if you do the additional exercises, if that is required. Unless required to have an MEP I would not bother to renew that.

[ReleasePT]

I know ME IR and MEP don't have anything to do with each other.

I'll put it simple. I don't need MEP. I'm not flying, I just want to have the minimum requirements to apply to a company or to start a TR. Normally what they ask is CPL, ATPL theory and ME IR basically.

I'd like to revalidate ME IR for one more year and spend the least amount of money possible. If in the next year I don't get a job I'll apply for a TR on my own and I'll revalidate IR along with the TR. I'm tired of waiting. Anyway...

What the UK CAA authorizes apparently the Portuguese CAA doesn't. I want to revalidate the ME IR for one more year and let the MEP expire. What they are saying in Portugal is that if I let the MEP expire, the ME IR will expire automatically together.

That’s why I’m asking if any of you have on your licence an expiration date of ME IR after the MEP.

[truckflyer]

Yes I have that, and I know the FTO which did it for me, can confirm this too.

At the moment I only have a valid ME/IR, don't have any MEP valid.

Have the CAA UK told you this is not possible? Or is it just the Portuguese CAA who have told you this? One or both?

[ReleasePT]

Only the Portuguese CAA told me is not possible. I already sent an email to the English, Swiss and Greek CAA.

I'm still waiting for an official answer. I'll keep you updated.

[truckflyer]

Not sure if there is some confusion with the terms for the Portuguese CAA, maybe that's why they telling you that.

If you renew your ME/IR, but dont have valid MEP, you will not have a valid aircraft that you can use your rating on, except SEP.

Maybe this is what they refer to, the actual ME/IR does not expiry, when your MEP expires, but you will not be legal to fly PIC on any MEP with your MEIR rating.

If they say otherwise, as you have explained, than they are wrong. Why don't you check with the school where you plan to renew your ME/IR directly, as if in same country as issuer of your licence, they will sign your licence renewal, and they will be able to confirm to you that it is like this.

Note that if you are taking a renewal in another country, like Portuguese licence, and renewing in UK, this is possible, but you need to check what Portuguese CAA requires of documents from you and from the FTO.

I recall when I did, they needed the schools JAA authorization, the sims confirmation of standard, the instructor JAA examiner authorization, his licence, his medical. The UK FTO was not allowed to sign my licence, I had to send it to my CAA, and they reissued be a new licence. (MEIR valid) MEP expired.

[ReleasePT]

When I did my initial MEP and ME IR last year I did it in Greece. I had to send to the Portuguese CAA all that documents you referred. There were no problems at all.

I actually told them that I don't need MEP and just want to keep the ME IR current. They answered this:

You cannot have ME IR without a valid MEP. So if you don't revalidate MEP, the IR ME qualification will always be limited to the 31/03/2012, date of MEP validity.

I cannot go there in person because I'm living in Switzerland now, but I'll try to go to the Swiss CAA this week and try to clarify this.

[lasseb]

Hmm, is it a special UK rule that a MEP last 2 years?
I'm pretty sure that for the rest of the JAR world a MEP is only valid for 1 year. (A SEP is 2 years though)

[Tsym]

@lasseb - The same rules apply in the UK. MEP rating lasts for 12 months from date of issue; SEP lasts 24 months from date of issue.

To clarify (or atleast reiterate what has already been mentioned here), the MEP and ME-IR are not related to eachother. They are both seperate ratings, and can be renewed independently of eachother.

The MEP rating can only be renewed in the aircraft, whereas the ME-IR can be renewed every other year in the simulator.

You can let the MEP lapse as you will not need it unless you intend to fly twin prop aircraft; airlines do not care about your MEP, its the ME-IR that they want.

I believe the MEP is required for initial ME-IR issue (i may be wrong), but beyond this you do not need it.

As above, every other year you will also be required to renew the ME-IR in a real twin aircraft. You do not need a valid MEP to do this, nor do you have to renew the MEP at the same time (if you don't need the MEP, don't renew it!).

The reason why people renew MEPs at the same time as the ME-IR in the aircraft is because it is only a small 'add-on'; a few extra circuits and some general flying/nav. It adds an extra 0.5hrs onto your test, so it makes financial sense if you really want the MEP.

@ReleasePT - I would try and clarify the regulations in your case with a local flying school, as I believe your licensing authority are mistaken. Or rather, the person you have been speaking with is mis-informed. As above, the MEP is a completely independent rating, and the validity of your ME-IR is not influenced by the former. Simply put, you can hold an ME-IR indefinately by renewing in both simulators and real aircraft without ever gaining your MEP rating back on your license!

Hope this helps

EDIT : Having written the above, I don't even think the MEP is required for initial ME-IR issue.

Afterall, the MEP is a rating to fly a type of aircraft. The ME-IR is a rating to fly in instrument conditions on an aircraft type on which you are rated. So this really re-emphasises how unconnected the 2 are; You can have the MEP and fly in VFR conditions, or you could hold a ME-IR and not exercise its privileges should you lack the MEP (or any other multi-engined aircraft type rating - ie A320,B737 etc etc)

[ReleasePT]

Thank you Tsym. I went to the Swiss authorities in person and they also allow doing the ME IR revalidation on the sim every other year. They actually showed me a licence with MEP expired but with ME IR current.

But they also told me that although Portugal, UK, Switzerland, etc are JAA state members each state has the authority to be more restrictive. I'm trying to speak again with the Portuguese authorities to see if they can do the same has the British and the Swiss.

[Tsym]

@ReleasePT - whilst each member state can be more restrictive, I do not believe they have given you the correct advice so far.

As I mentioned before, the ME-IR just allows you to fly in IFR conditions on any aircraft type that you currently have an active rating on. This rating could be on absolutely anything; MEP or A340 or A320 or B737 or B747 or ..... You get what I am saying here... The 2 ratings are very different, and so their validity will be unrelated.

If you don't want to fly a twin piston aircraft, why would anyone be forced to keep renewing their rating for it?! It makes no sense, and the licensing authorities know this.

To put this in context, it is also a requirement to have a Class One Medical certificate to fly commercially, however the validity of your CPL is 5 years, whereas your medical is 12 monthly.... Using the same logic as your licensing authority have applied thus far, they might aswell tell you that your CPL must expire on the same date as your medical. This is just silly!

Good luck and keep us posted!

[ReleasePT]

I will...

I insisted with them and they gave me a direct email of one Portuguese CAA inspector. I'll wait but I don't have many hope on this to be honest.

But let's see...

[ReleasePT]

I’m still not having a definitive answer from the Portuguese CAA but I decided to take this to another level and I sent an email to every EASA/JAA members.

Besides Switzerland, UK and Greece I can add the Czech Republic, Romania, Estonia, Norway, Sweden and Luxembourg to the list of countries that allow ME IR revalidation on the FNPTII simulator. I'm still waiting from other countries answers but I guess the only country that doesn't allow this, is my country... lol

You can see on this part of the JAR FCL where it states that WE CAN DO IT on the simulator.


http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2020/jarfcl1246.jpg

[BUTLER01]

Mid Anglia School of Flying at Cambridge Airport has a PA-34-200 Seneca available and ideal for recurrent multi-engine and IR training, revalidation and renewals. This can all be carried out at Cambridge where we have an NDB, ILS/DME and, when manned, Radar Service. 01223 294466.

Learn to fly - Mid-Anglia School of Flying | Cambridge Flying Club | Gift Vouchers (http://masfcambridge.com/?page=flighttraining&section=meir)

[BigGrecian]

As I mentioned before, the ME-IR just allows you to fly in IFR conditions on any aircraft type that you currently have an active rating on. This rating could be on absolutely anything; MEP or A340 or A320 or B737 or B747 or ..... You get what I am saying here... The 2 ratings are very different, and so their validity will be unrelated.


No true.

The ME IR is broken down into ME-IR-SPA and ME-IR-MPA

SPA = single pilot aircraft
MPA = multi pilot aircraft

If you do it in a single pilot aircraft it's only valid in single pilot aircraft and vice versa.