When I read the article the first thought that came to mind was:
WTF? Here's a snippet:

CHICAGO (AP) - A small but growing number of teens and even younger children who think they were born the wrong sex are getting support from parents and from doctors who give them sex-changing treatments, according to reports in the medical journal Pediatrics.
It's an issue that raises ethical questions, and some experts urge caution in treating children with puberty-blocking drugs and hormones.
An 8-year-old second-grader in Los Angeles is a typical patient. Born a girl, the child announced at 18 months, "I a boy" and has stuck with that belief. The family was shocked but now refers to the child as a boy and is watching for the first signs of puberty to begin treatment, his mother told The Associated Press.


WTF is wrong with us? Are we all collectively taking a ride to hell in a hand basket? An 8 year old second grader wants to become a boy? Didn't we used to call that a tom-boy and the girl dealt with it? What the hell is going on? Or, maybe, is it....


The Continuing Pussification of the Western World

The Continuing Pussification of the Western World

Isn't that the opposite of what the young lady wants?

Gender Identity Disorder in children: an expert's view - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9094828/Gender-Identity-Disorder-in-children-an-experts-view.html)

Zach Avery: the boy, 5, who wanted to be a girl - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9094439/Zach-Avery-the-boy-5-who-wanted-to-be-a-girl.html)

You know what, f**k it. If I had a 5 year old who wanted to be the opposite gender to that which they were born, I'd deal with it the ol' fashioned way: a slap upside the head and told to deal with it and get on with it. Sheesh. Enough already.

WTF is wrong with us? Are we all collectively taking a ride to hell in a hand basket? An 8 year old second grader wants to become a boy? Didn't we used to call that a tom-boy and the girl dealt with it? What the hell is going on? Or, maybe, is it....

There is nothing wrong with us and there are many examples in history. Thank goodness this stuff is in the open and we are getting to grips with it. Read the story of Chely Wright who had a miserable childhood and adolecence until she realised that she was gay. When she finally plucked up the courage to tell her father he said 'You're my child and I still love you'. That takes courage from both sides. Chely was ostracised by the US Country scene (she's a country singer-songwriter) and as a result has set up a gay and lesbian organisation for people just like herself.

I repeat - there is nothing wrong with us but unfortunately this stuff is often blown out of all proportion by people who should know better. Let's just let everyone get on with their lives the best way they can and give them love and support when they need it and privacy when they want it.

Oh stop it. Stop it now. I'm not talking about homosexuality and "coming out of the closet" and being open about it.

I'm talking about teens, and pre-teens, deciding that they really don't want to be the gender they are and change it to the other.
This has nothing to do with being gay and all to do with madness.
You're going to tell me that an 8 year old knows enough, is mature enough, to make a decision on gender change? If so, then I say give the 8 year old the legal right to drink and, while we're at it, give the 8 year old a rifle and get his arse over to Afghanistan.

You know what, f**k it. If I had a 5 year old who wanted to be the opposite gender to that which they were born, I'd deal with it the ol' fashioned way: a slap upside the head and told to deal with it and get on with it. Sheesh. Enough already.

I hope to the heavens that you're not a parent.

Here's a snippet:

could have been put better. :uhoh:

I'm with RGB on this one--a couple of good smacks and a reminder that, at 8, the child doesn't get to decide. This thread, like the continuing saga of DSK on the nearby thread, are examples of The Continuing Pussification of The Western World or, more accurately, the lack of any moral or ethical compass and a supine desire "not to judge", just when judging is called for.

GF

One wonders how these children came to these conclusions. :hmm:

One wonders how these children came to these conclusions.


Probably wanting to copy their peers.

Reminds me of a furious mother of an eight year old when inhalers were the 'in thing'. Her daughter had gone to a party and the host had told the mother that they all spent a lot of the time looking for the 'puffer' that her daughter had lost.

The anger was down to the fact that the girl didn't have one to lose in the first place, but wanted to be part of the scene.

Try putting fafafini in Google ....

I suspect I may be one of the few regular contributors to this forum who has someone in their (extended) family who has changed gender, so I have first-hand experience of this matter.

First of all I totally agree that the idea of children being allowed to make this sort of decision is highly dangerous. At that age they are incapable of understanding their own bodies and sexuality to the extent that they could make a life altering decision like this.

In my relative's case, he grew up as a fairly normal boy, but as he reached puberty began to realise there was something wrong. For some years he lived as a gay man, but knew that wasn't the answer, and finally in his late 20s entered on the long road to sex-change, which took over two years to complete. For the last ten years she has been living as a woman, which she is, other than the inability to bear children. She was fortunate in that as a man she was a slightly-built 5'5" with size 5 feet (UK size) so she doesnt look like a man in a dress. The only odd thing about her is she is a very good driver and a competent motor mechanic ;)

Gender reassignment isn't a joke or a fashion statement, it can quite literally be a life-saver for those very few people who find themselves trapped in a body of the wrong sex.

.

Gender dysphoria in children solved by a "smack upside the head" or alternatively "a couple of good smacks"?

I, and I strongly suspect, RGBrock1 were brought under parents who made abundantly obvious that following our parents' dictates was not optional and failing to do so would be painful. We are both self-sustaining, responsible adults, former serving members of our armed forces and (mostly) happily married. I don't think our opinions are that far out.

GF

Get real you lot. Since when has Nature been perfect. There is ample medical research to suggest that many are born with indeterminate sex, a mix of both genders or the brain of one and the body of the other. It happens.

I believe I was born intersexed. A paedriatric surgeon, in an interview about how they choose what sex a child should be, commented that sometimes external environmental aspects played a part. He said that towards the end of WWII and afterwards as the country was going to be short of men all intersex children were surgically altered to make them boys.

By the age of fifteen my parents had initiated moves to get me into the military, stating that "This would make a man out of me", obviously needing such. It took me half a century to get over that cure, with numerous attempts at taking my own life. The surgeon who carried out my gender realignment surgery said there was evidence of atrophied female organs inside. So make of that what you will.

I wouldn't even attempt to make any judgement on others so disposed especially the young. There is nothing new about it. Just watched a DVD of Spitfire Women, the story of the Air Transport Auxiliary in WWII, where one of the pilots is recounted as stating that she believed herself to be man in a woman's body.

Well, but as often - there are true problems and 'copycat' ones, like with everything that is hard to determine 100% (unlike a missing leg that's really obvious). And people who would do anything for their 15 seconds of fame. For these RGB's cure could work well.

TTN 's post is both informative and forthright concerning a topic most of us, as he says, know little about.....:ok:

The ability of child to articulate their emotions with regard to latent sexuality is clearly limited, however, the views expressed on the NHS site below are interesting in that (a) they become aware at an early age and (b) public awareness is now increasing.....thanks in part I suppose to education and the internet....

Gender Dysphoria - NHS Choices (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx)

Thus the "if you don't understand it, hit it" parenting..:confused: philosophy advocated by the cousins ( on a par with the lap top clip....I am surprised they didn't suggest shooting the children as well ) is disturbing in many respects.

Genetics are , quite frankly, beyond our control as humans in the conception stage and, whilst most of us are fortunate to have no problems as such, there are those, through no fault of their own ( this is the bit that may confuse the closed minds brigade ) who do have gender related problems which can, and should be addressed to enable them to live a full life.

I seem to recal their was an idealogy which also felt that genetics had a certain relevance to conformity....the prime criteria in this case being blonde hair....

Anything I've ever read or heard on the subject seems to indicate that the person concerned recognises it in themselves at a very early age and it never goes away. Given the nature of society and families this was usually suppressed until later, sometimes completely.

So obviously times have changed. Children are saying it and their parents are listening. To be honest it's not something to be wished upon anyone. So it's got to be tough for all concerned.

I have two boys, fortunately neither demonstrate an inch of gender confusion, except that the youngest has a slight predilection for pink. Both are mightily offended if you call them girly though. The five year old is also proof positive that sexist pigs are born not made considering some of the statements he's made already! I think he's reincarnation of some unreconstructed old git from the fifties!

i take RGB's point. at about 8 my nephew decided he was allergic to nuts, which of course he wasn't nor ever had been. No you're bloody not just eat it, was part of the remedy to this 'affliction'.

As TTN and alisoncc point out, gender identity problems that require corrective surgery or not are problematic for the person and is also a separate issue from homosexuality. it does need help, counselling and treatment which is a long road, but the situation of banding everyone into a box with an affliction from gender identity to ADD, ADHD is frankly counter productive. such an issue as gender identity needs to be dealt with on a personal level with the individual concerned rather than treat them as a conveyor belt 'problem' with a nip here and tuck there, bob's your auntie, next please ! attitude.

just my 2 cents worth.

Anything I've ever read or heard on the subject seems to indicate that the person concerned recognises it in themselves at a very early age and it never goes away. Given the nature of society and families this was usually suppressed until later, sometimes completely.

Absolutely. I knew from at least the age of seven that there was something drastically wrong. And feeling my fathers belt often around my behind did nothing to correct this feeling. So no, a clip around the earholes does not change anything. It's what is between your ears that determines your gender not what is between your legs.

Alison

It's what is between your ears that determines your gender not what is between your legs.



that's probably the most accurate statement that can ever be made.

Further to previous. I once gave a talk to a church group on the subject of Gender Identity Dysphoria. An oldish chap at the back asked the question "Why are there so many of you around nowadays"? I replied that until it was diagnosable, 80% of those so afflicted were estimated to take their own lives.

When I started on my journey in the mid-nineties I knew a girl in Northern Ireland who wrote that when she started in the early nineties there were ten in her local support group. By the late nineties only three were still alive, and a short while later I heard that she too had taken her own life.

So don't let anyone kid themselves that it's some kind of lifestyle choice.

alisoncc wrote:

Get real you lot. Since when has Nature been perfect.

Nature is not perfect, no. But are we not a part of nature?
And when was the last time, aside from homo sapiens, when you saw a gender change in nature. Did you ever see a male giraffe decide to become a female?

Galaxy flyer: spot on. I was brought up by parents who expected me to behave in a certain manner. It wasn't optional either. I either did, or didn't. And if I didn't, I paid the price.
This foundation in self-discipline is what helped me through my military career and especially through Ranger school. Discipline.
Self discipline. The ability to know ones limits, to know when to say no. To know the consequences of ones actions. And to take responsibility for all actions.

All of which are sorely lacking in today's society. Very sorely lacking.

rgb: it happens often with some fish, especially reef fish for some reason. Difference is, of course, my taxes aren't paying for it!

Before you know it, the docs will cease their long custom of gratuitously carving the tails off the significant numbers of young'uns fortunate enough to be born with same.

Yet another inch for letting it all hang out........, whatever it may be.

All other discussion notwithstanding, I applaud alisoncc's candor.

Nature is not perfect, no. But are we not a part of nature?


RGB, I can only presume that you came out of a machine somewhere. Perhaps something like the ones they used to use in Butchers shops to produce sausages.

I was brought up by parents who expected me to behave in a certain manner. It wasn't optional either. I either did, or didn't. And if I didn't, I paid the price.


I was no different. I sure paid the price whenever I strayed in the direction of my elder sister's clothes and toys. A 2inch wide leather strap was used, no tap on the shoulder. Followed by eight years in the RAF, serving on Vulcans, Lightnings and down the Gulf. And there wasn't a day in my life that I wasn't fully aware of and troubled by a voice in my brain that constantly stated "This is all wrong".

By my early fifties, after the third visit to a hospital for stomach pumping, a visiting shrink saw fit to ask why. It was only then, for the first time in my life that I told someone of my lifelong battle, previously believing that I may have had some kind of split personality, or other mental disease. I fought it hard for fifty years, in the end preferring to end my life rather than continue. I couldn't fight it anymore.

Some people believe that those born disabled have only themselves to blame. Quite sad really.

rgbrock, galaxy flyer; I think few people here will disagree with you that self discipline instilled from an early age is a life long benefit both to an individual and to society as a whole.
It is a well researched and documented fact of life.

In some countries vigorous corporal punishment is still en vogue, other places believe that a slap in time saves a lot of trouble later on, and in some countries laying a hand in anger on a child is illegal. But that difference is not what this thread is about.

Equally, most people would agree that while gender dysphoria may be manifest from a very early age, taking action is wrought with ethical dilemmas and needs to be a very carefully considered process.

Point is, you both write that (parentally enforced) self discipline should counter gender dysphoria.
Science does not back that point of view, nor do the 2 people here who have first and second hand experience in the matter.

Does that not make you think a bit about your chosen position?

Judd:

Regardless of the 1st and 2nd hand experience of this so-called gender dysphoria it does not in anyway, shape or manner change my opinion that an 8 year old has no business thinking in terms of gender change. That was the premise of my initial post opening this thread. An 8 year old (most but perhaps not all) has no idea of sexuality or anything remotely similar. For an 8 year old to ask his/her parents about gender change is, in my mind, just plain wrong, for want of a better term.

No, alisoncc, i was not born from a machine. I understand, somewhat, the experiences you have chosen to share. However, I am of the firm opinion and belief that what we were bestowed with at birth, by nature itself, is ours to keep and take care of. Whether we like what we were bestowed with or not, it is what it is.
In other words, I believe in dealing with the cards one has been dealt with. And that holds true for everything else in life. Basta.

I spent twenty years after the RAF doing the extreme macho bit, trying to prove that I was more masculine than the next. Driven the length of the Kalahari - south to north rolled a landrover on it's roof in the process, and crossed the Sahara in minimally prepared vehicles.

Flew solo charters in PNG and then in Southern Africa at a time when the continent was going through massive upheaval. The Pork and Cheese had pullled out of Angola and Mozambique, the ANC were streaming into SW Africa through the Caprivi Strip, Ian Smith had declared UDI in Rhodesia. Let me assure all, hedge hopping into freshly prepared strips to pick up wives and children of ex-pats with minimal light was not for the faint hearted. I fought my GID like you wouldn't believe, but the reality was that I could never win. That voice would always return.

Alison

rgbrock Is it possible that part of your thinking is influenced by a confusion between sexuality and gender? I have no personal experience of the subject, but I suspect gender dysphoria is not driven purely by sexual motivation but by a feeling of simply being in the wrong body. So our putative 8-year-old isn't thinking "I fancy boys, therefore I should be a girl", he is thinking "Deep down, I believe I should be a girl; I have the wrong body" - is that less outrageous?

As a parent, it's not a challenge I would relish encountering, but I hope if one of my children were to raise the subject I would listen and do my best to support them in making the decisions they needed to make them feel content in themselves - whatever that took.

I don't think that many would dispute that children/adolescents should reach a sufficient age to understand the consequences of their proposed actions (21 maybe? but I guess that's going to vary between individuals).

Given the likely difficulties a transgendered person will have to overcome on their journey, I suspect they would leap at the chance of changing their innermost feelings by applying a little "self-discipline" if that were all that were required. It appears clear that such feelings are fundamental and immutable. And I'm not sure it behoves those of us lucky enough not to be burdened with this condition to make life more difficult for them.