Progressing from SFO

[KLOS]

Apologies if this has been aired previously -

I fly TPA from LGW circa 5 times a year. Aircraft is often with SFO as PF.

Does an SFO have to have had time on SH before becoming an SFO LH? Is the expected career progression on a LH/SH airline - FO - SH- SFO - LH- Capt SH - CAP LH. Would a FO -SH be allowed to forgo the SFO-LH and wait for a SH command ? Do airlines have any discretion or is the standard laid down in aviation regulation?

Grateful for any info- thanks

[wiggy]

Is the expected career progression on a LH/SH airline - FO - SH- SFO - LH- Capt SH - CAP LH.

Depends on the airline. There's at least one I know of with a mix of SH and LH types where it's perfectly possible and normal to progress through the rank structure without spending any time in shorthaul.

Would a FO -SH be allowed to forgo the SFO-LH and wait for a SH command


Yes ( in the particular airline I'm referring to).

[theshed]

More importantly it depends on the pilot and what he/she wants.

There is more to life than the number of stripes on your shoulder or the seat you sit in. Many pilots want to be in the left hand seat as soon as they can and therefore as short haul usually demands less seniority early commands are seen on short haul so guys will go LH FO/SFO to SH Capt.

Others view there lifestyle as the most important thing and again this goes noth ways some value short haul and getting high in the bidding order so as to be at home every night with their family. The other side of it is being away on LH trips but more days off at home in between affording lifestyle that way. These people may well go LH FO and sit as a career FO/SFO gaining the seniority to control there lives and not wanting to ever give that up for the extra stripe.

The point I'm making is it is very individual and even for one person the journey plan often changes as families arrive etc. In my company seniority rules and that is how the options open up to you. Also interesting fact a surprising amount of people don't realise if you join my company you join as an FO no matter how much experience should you have 10000 hours PIC on LH with another company and you will wait 4 years until you get promoted to SFO thats is what it is based on just time in the company.

Seniority rules :uhoh:

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Three career progressions known to me:
1. Dan-Air 727 first officer, joined BA as 747 'Classic' first officer, then senior first officer 777, then captain 777 to retirement. (Preferred long-haul.)
2. Dan-Air One-Eleven first officer, joined BA as 747 'Classic' first officer, then senior first officer 757/767, then 757/767 captain to retirement. (Preferred short-haul.)
3. Monarch 737 captain, joined BA as 747 'Classic' first officer, then senior first officer 747 to retirement. (Preferred organised 'top of the bidline' senior first officer lifestyle to a command, and the tax advantages of living in France.)

In theory, if you have the aircraft type endorsed as 'Pilot in Command' on your Airline Transport Pilot's Licence, then you can fly it in command. Needless to say, it doesn't work like that. The CAA, before approving the airline's operations manual, will insist that the minimum flying hours for command is written somewhere. This is the legal bit. The company's insurers will also lay down minimum experience levels, for all flight-deck crew.

[KLOS]

Thanks to all for informative responses.

I was struck by the policy of the airline which places company seniority over past flying hours in command. I was imagining a flight deck with a newly promoted youngish captain with a nunber 2 with a huge stack of command flying hours elsewhere. It makes you wonder how CRM might work if there were a difference of opInion on options in an emergency and the two individuals were people not known for having their opinions questioned- just a thought :hmm:

[theshed]

You hit on a good point and that is where the professionalism and CRM training come into play. A flight deck is a team and all experience should be and in my experience has been taken into account to get through the day in the best and safest way poss.

It does amuse me how often people have issues with how the command gradient works on a flight deck. The captain will always be the captain but in an modern airline you would not be a commander of an aircraft if you don't have the ability to realise the guy beside you may have more relevant experience in any given situation.

Flip the situation round you have a capt. on an aircraft who has been flying that aircraft as a capt for 20 years has thousands and thousands of hours on type, but has been lucky enough never to have had anything go wrong. Beside him is an FO who has been flying for a year and last week had an engine fire. They experience an engine fire who would you be listening to?? Experience isn't always simple to quantify and we are trained to respect this and to make sure we are getting the best out of what ever team we are placed in.

It is very rare to have someone that is hard to get along with at the levels you are talking about. That is what the recruitment processes are in place for, long winded as you may think they are.

Or maybe I've just been lucky in my career. :ok:

[parabellum]

The company's insurers will also lay down minimum experience levels, for all flight-deck crew.


Not strictly true. Underwriters accept that companies operating under an AOC will have Operations manuals approved by the legislating authority that will contain minimum hours requirements for various positions that are considered sufficient, so allow them to self regulate. When it comes to smaller companies, what is known as a 'Pilot Warranty' may be included in the insurance cover that stipulates minimum hours for pilots in that company, i.e. for a Twin Otter it could be something like, "1,500 hours total time with 500 on type", (that is just an example), that company could then approach underwriters and say, "We have a pilot with 5000 hours total, all relevant, will you accept 250 on type?" , almost certainly, from my experience, it would be a "Yes' without additional premium. Another example would be a company buying a high value, one off, corporate aircraft, the underwriters would certainly want to know the pilots experience before covering it.

All the above does not exclude the possibility of an AOC company with a bad accident/claims record having pilot warranties introduced, if thought necessary.

[KLOS]

T,

I have been off- line, just back from TPA.

Belatedly , many thanks for a great response and for taking the time for us amateurs :ok: