RACNSW in 'De Good Ole Days'....

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A few 'memories' of the Good Ole Days at RACNSW BK, when it was a 'full of vitality, enthusiastic, organisation....and men were men.....and the 'Chippy' was the mainstay trainer for some, and the PA-24 Comanche was the 'new kid on the block'.....

And, some 'memories', like all good stories, sometimes have a 'dark' side.....
And although some of the people concerned would have 'passed on' by now,
'some' stories are not for these esteemed pages - and they are no doubt, the more 'interesting' ones......some humourous - and some not!

I mean, who can remember playing 'fighters and bombers' with the aid of a bucket in the middle of the floor of the bar...??

And the lovely Sunday evening dinner dances when 'Betty' was the manager of the classic 'country club' dining room - The one with the very large photo of Kingsford Smith in the Southern Cross cockpit, and the huge fireplace and the trophies.....
Those were some very nice nights!

In the time I was there, Pat Galagher was the CFI, and he could turn a Chippy inside out - so it seemed.
VH-RSK was his favourite.

I had the pleasure of doing my First Solo in RSK, with Bill Lord, the 2.I.C.'....

Well...that's a start

Cheers :ok::ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Griffo, have you just stopped talking to Angry Ant? :E

[Centaurus]

Remember Vic Schuback who instructed there in 1947. He subsequently flew Hudsons and DC3 newspaper aircraft of the Sydney Morning Herald Flying Services based at Camden. Later a captain with East West Airlines. Died two years ago in Sydney.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

OOOppss Cap'n,

I only left it for few secs to make a 'brew'....Honest....:eek::eek:

[greybeard]

1962, Pat was my testing officer for the first AOPA flying scholarship, got a College of Knowlege Comercial course as third place.

Tom Young was AOPA president, stayed in the accomodation.

Trip from Perth was in an Electra, Viscount via Melbourne, back direct in a DC-6 all an adventure in 1962 as a 18 year bare private licence.

Jees I am getting on.

:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

The 'College of Knowledge'.....

Still have the Private and the Commercial Courses in a box.
Went into the city to Clarence St (SY) to meet Mr Roy Corbett, Principal I think, a couple of times to discuss some answers....

Did the November '65 CPL Exams at Bondi Pavilion.

Cheers:ok:

[Jack Ranga]

Did my Commercial at Illawarra but used to head up to the Aero Club in it's final days for a beer.........So my only memory of there is a parmy and schooner of new and my feet sticking to the carpet wherever I walked :E

It wasn't real flash in it's final days Griffo!

[angry ant]

I deleted the other thread on the RAC of NSW, I didn't notice until afterwards, that you had started an RAC thread, shortly before me.

Cheers

AA

[angry ant]

Mr. Roy Corbett was the Chief writer of the courses , he passed away many years ago. RIP.

The Chief of the Office and majority owner was Mr. Peter Kelly, an old friend of mine. He passed away in June 2010. RIP.

I started work at the College on a Mon. in March, 1970 and was having lunch with him at the Gresham Hotel, opposite the Syd. Town Hall, when a Very Senior Captain from AAPNG came to see Pete, I was introduced to him, he thought for a few moments and asked me if I had applied for a job there, I said, yes. He asked if I had received a telegram from the Chief Pilot, Capt. Dick Glassey,asking me to contact him at his Syd. Hotel, I said, No.

We all had lunch and just as he was leaving, he said, well do you want it, I said, want what, he said the Bloody job. YES PLEASE. What else could say.

Irate binatang

AA

[Frank Arouet]

Fond memories of the place. Some names from the logbook of member F1046.

Circa 1970's;

W Lord. VH RSQ DH C1
C Gibbons. VH RSQ DH C1
D Lewis. VH RSN PA 28
S Mobbs. VH MRH C210T
S Jones. VH RSL PA 28
R Williams. VH DSG C177
D Goodwin. VH DHT B33
A Aiken. VH DSG C177
W Gengos. VH MRH C210T
R Clamback. VH MNG C210

From Circa 1950-60's. Not all from log book, not all from RAC;

P Gallagher.
H treloer.
E Veitch.
Tony Fisher.
D Morris.
R Rutherford.
J McDonald.
B Walker
G Grandt.
R McLean.
D Grant.
L McIver.
K Endacott.
A Olsson.
S Marshall.
K May.
D Fawcett.
K Andrews.

[ANCIENT]

Had my first lesson in FTA with Pat Gallagher in early 62. Lived and worked at the club during 63, an education for a young chap.
Remember K Wycherley, G Layton, A Kell.
Wednesday night night flying always provided an entertaining time at the bar after the flying finished.

[DTE]

Hi All,

Great thread and great memories.

My father's first civilian job after the RAAF was instructing at the RAC of NSW, then it was my first 'paying' job about 30 years later.

It's sad that the RAC of NSW is no longer with us. (Although I've still got the tie.) :)

Cheers,

Owen
Owen Zupp (http://www.owenzupp.com/_blog/Owen_Zupp)
My Aviation Blog

[clotted]

How about:
Ray McClelland,
Steve Peck
Len Moran
John Lysaght
Keith Fitton
Ross Davies
Bill Whitworth
C Randall
Kell, was Arthur

[Norman Wells]

It stirs the nostalgia and fond memories of the days when Bankstown Airport was a centre of activity for young aspiring aviators and the Royal Aero Club was a meeting place. Perhaps the camaraderie of those days is something missing from today’s flying schools.
Vic Schubach taught me to fly and must have done something right because I and a couple of my colleagues ultimately made it to B747’s.
I vividly remember flying over to Camden for one of those ‘competition days’ with two Chipmunks, Pat Gallagher in one and Eric Marsh in the other, barrel rolling around each other all the way. For a young pilot their skills were not only breathtakingly inspiring but so exciting that even today, it is a moment frozen in time.
There were others. Like Tas Dalton, CFI, a thorough gentleman and an excellent role model of professionalism.
Tom Long, Bob Jarvis, Bob Hay and Jim Minahan were about in the early fifties and from each one of them I learnt something which I carried with me throughout my professional career.
The Royal Aero Club of the fifties was full of characters, scallywags, the Walter Mitty;s, the hopefuls and the dedicated.
Am I biased or were they not ‘the good old days’?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks for the post 'AA',....I'm not 'in competition'.... I just went to make a 'brew'....:ok:

Hi Norman,
Bob Jarvis - Did my CPL Flight Test with Mr Jarvis. It was a crap day re weather, but he said we would 'work around it', and so we went.
An interesting and 'successful' flight.
On the first sector of the flight, the cloud was 'not far away', and the engine of the 172 gave the tiniest of changes of tone.
I immediately went to pull on the Carby Heat - and found my hand on the back of Bob's - and he was pretending to read a publication all that time....
He didn't miss much.
A gentleman.

Ray McLean - one of Life's real characters, and a very good instructor.
First met Ray at Albion Pk, then later at 'Aircraft Rentals' at BK.
John Cougle of Aircraft Rentals and he decided 'one night' to get three distinct regos,....VH-SEX, SIN, & SON, and to park them outside in that order.

They got SEX, a PA-30. Instructions were when booking the acft, do NOT even think of asking the receptionist for....
SIN was a Seneca, but not with A/R, and SON a PA-31, also not with A/R.

:ok:

[sms777]

I flew the last mission in the Duchess VH-LBF back in 1991 with ATO Peter Tilia on my CPL test. I have passed, the next day the doors were shut for good leaving most of my fellow cadets thousands of dollars out of pocket.
I have done most of my training under the watchful eyes of Oberstumpfuhrer Joe Gostner (RIP old friend). I have made it thanks to him.....

[Frank Arouet]

Bob Jarvis did my NVFR.

He didn't like flying single engine at night and my over dilligence to detail at the old tower nearly had him in a state. I even taxiied back to RAC to get another torch. The evening went well until arriving back at YSBK R11 with a hefty cross wind he stated, "are you capable of landing this aircraft in this cross wind" to which I answered "yes" despite it being somewhat more than published recommendations, to which he replied "because if you can't, I :mad: can".

Signed my licence that night with the rating.

I overheard a radio call sierra echo xray for runway 11. To which someone said, "wouldn't it be better on the grass".

[Jack Ranga]

Frank, was that C Gibbons that used to ATO at Illawarra? (the fellow that had the engine failure in the 210 near Canberra).

[Frank Arouet]

Jack;

Long time ago buddy, could have been.

[ANCIENT]

Did my PPL with Bob Jarvis in RSP and my CPL with Tom Curlewis.
Will not forget my CPL test, when the throttle was closed to simulate an engine failure Tom mentioned he had just done a gliding course and had heard I was also doing some gliding. The moment I confirmed my gliding the mixture went to cut off and we spent the next half hour seeing who could thermal a PA28. Never did get to demonstrate a forced landing. We did manage to prolong our glide with a few thermals around Badgerys Creek. Must have been ok as I got my CPL and am still using it 48 years later.

[Tmbstory]

Remember Ken Hammond, the Manager of the Royal and the friendly office staff in the early 1960's. The other end of the building was the Instructor's 'Den' with all sorts of stories from there.

Tmb

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

If I remember....Ken went off to manage "Helicopter Utilities" if I've got that right...

"Thermalling" in a Cherokee.....just CANNOT imagine that.....
:D

[Frank Arouet]

Another name, Jack Zappertal, (spelling), comes to mind. He was capable of doing some peculiar things with the PA28.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Interesting memories: I did my AU CPL test with Curly (Curlewis, that is) --- a bit of a culture shock.

Previously, my only experience of "the men from the Ministry" was at Stanstead, UK. Said men from the Ministry were kitted out in the same uniform as a BOAC Captain--- they actually were supplied by the BOAC uniform store, only the hat badge and wings were different.

So, to me, a bloke looking like a WWI naval captain was the norm for an Examiner of Airmen--- then Tom turned up at the RACNSW flight hut, wearing a paint spattered green jumper and well worn cords, complimented with a decrepit pair of brothel creepers --- desert boots to those of you of tender and sensitive disposition.

Looked like he had been painting the house, accounted for by the fact he had been painting the house ----- and loudly announced: "Where's today's victim" ---- not a great confidence booster.

I realized I had past, only when, walking into the office on conclusion, he again announced to all and sundry: "I supposed young XXXX won't fxxking kill anybody" ----- a reasonable guess, I haven't.

It was the "good old days", all the Examiners were people, for whom we all had respect, we knew their foibles ---- they were all "firm but fair".

----- there are many of today's FOIs who are certainly not fair, too many of them have a very aggressive ( not Tom's mock aggressive) attitude, generally to mask their lack of aviation experience and often lack of quite basic aeronautical knowledge, let alone the advanced level of knowledge and understanding that should be a necessary qualification for an FOI --- and can't fly to save their lives ( I was going to say something somewhat less complimentary.)

It is worth looking up the FAA minimum qualifications to even apply for an inspector's job, then look up the FAA induction training --- then look up all the info. you can find about the most recent ICAO and FAA audits of CASA ---- the problem is there for all to see.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Looking through Frank's list, it is a sobering thought that so many died in accidents, and not of other natural, if self induced, causes.

[triadic]

I am sure that if we were to start a thread on the big aero clubs at AF, MB and PF we would get much the same. Maybe we should?

Laurie Macpherson was the CFI/Manager at RVAC in the 60's then went to BK for a while. Lost track of him there, but understand he was manager for some years. He did my PPL test at RVAC in 65. Back then John Bally CFI, then Bill Cambell-Hicks. John went to DCA in Bris I understand.

It was the introduction of DUI rules that killed many of the aero clubs, especially in the big smoke when many folk had some distance to drive (ie north shore) it just was not worth it. I seem to recall that my Morris Minor of the day had 'seemless' gear changes when going home for some reason!!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

My 'trusty steed' of the time was a Morris 8HP 'Ute', & although it was 'ancient' then, it was very dependable, and got me up the Marion St hill to BK every time it was asked to...

There was a club aero champion at the time who, on returning from the trng area in his Modified (I think) Chippy, did a low roll right in front of the boys in the 'old tower', (29R..?) landed, and scarpered. He was USA bound for a job.

However....Murphy's Law, he was back not too long after, and was invited to 'tea and bikkies' at Waverton, the DCA office at the time.
So I heard....he will know who he is if he reads these pages.....

I could be wrong, but...... :ok::ok:

[Tmbstory]

I remember the night of the incident, the discussion went on for a long time at the bar, lessons were learned

Tmb

[LeadSled]

Shades of Eric Greathead beating the place up in the Sea Fury, then running out of fuel just after clearing 11/29.
It was a great view out Russ Evans window at Balls Head Rd,. Waverton.
Tootle pip!!

[eagle 86]

Some snippets circa 1962:
I was a Balmain RL fan - lady in the office was married to Peter Provan brother of Norm playing second row for the Tigers at the time,
young American instructor married to an Oz girl got called up to the USN and in 1966 was an instructor of mine at Pensacola - overjoyed when posted to Skyraiders and Viet Nam,
Arthur Kell DFC killed in a Chippie that wouldn't come out of spin - two bob bit jammed under pole - couldn't get full forward stick - interestingly a mate and I with still wet military wings couldn't get one out of a spin on the first attempt - often wonder whether it was the same aircraft, and
leather helmets, old green RAAF cotton flying suits and unique Pommy aircraft smell - years later discovered that a Wessex helicopter smelt the same!
GAGS
E86
PS In 1966 I did flight grading in Chippies at RVAC - my instructor was Roy Goon instructor of Bluey Truscott who could do everything well except land!
PPS The other thing in common between the Chippie and Wessex was throat mikes!!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Mr Evans, now there is a gentleman.
Great friend of Ray McLean, and a very 'firm but fair' DCA man of the time.
Great sense of humour....
I do remember his "I wanna see you'...at the RACNSW Bar one Friday night....was something to be concerned about.
Ended well.

If you ever read these pages Mr Evans, I sincerely wish you well.:):)

Cheers:ok::ok:

[sixtiesrelic]

I was Royal Vic, but my father and uncle were in the Royal NSW in the thirties. Left the old man’s scuffed and worn leather flying jacket with the oxidised gold braid RANSW wings at a girlfriend’s place when I moved to another city and then we broke up. Never saw the relic that had flown thousands of hours in NSW and New Guinea again … bugger it.
The thing for us fifties and early sixties students was the calibre of the instructors.
Laurie Mc Pherson went with me on my pre-solo check and exuded experience. I was thrilled that ‘he actually let me fly with him’ and avidly listen to his advice.
Many instructors were ex-fighter pilots who had flown for their very lives and heard their aeroplanes creak and groan as they hovered in grey-out or pink-out, knowing not to yank or shove the controls any more or the bloke behind him's bullets would be smacking home.
They knew just how far you could get to the edge of the flight envelope before losing it and they flew there often, eg. ‘Jack above, who could do some peculiar things with a PA 28.’
There was a certain military (real one) atmosphere in the aero clubs which were air force huts anyway. Today's golden bars and student uniforms don't seem to cut the mustard. The military chain of command and earned respect was natural and seeped down from the CFI in most of the established aero clubs.
Royal Vic had all the fleet lined up in place at 10 AM and 2 PM when the grey Mobil truck moved along the line at the rate of today's peak hour traffic. Tarmac terriers leaping up onto the Tiger Moth reinforced black painted cowl to top up the tank at lightning speed or darting round the Chippy’s noses to fill the wing tanks.
For most of us, there was the long walk from the tram or bus stop… who had the money for a car? Cars for young blokes, was still off in the future.
Trying to listen in to the instructors in their den and what they were talking about.
Ashtrays stinking out the briefing rooms.
Terrier on the wing tip as you taxiied off the bitumen parking area, looking for a flashing green from the tower.
Promotion from the Tiger to a Chippy with the great big flight ground switch to power up the ship with electricity. Brakes, flaps... a five channel wireless set, headphones (no leather helmet and leaning forward to bung ya gob over the squashed Gosport tube funnel to talk.
No head in front of you, TWO fuel tanks ... hell a real complicated cockpit now.
But you didn’t need to be trussed up in leather to keep some of the cold out… you were INSIDE with Perspex all around and above you. The wind hissed past as you flew if you lifted up your head phones and the rain stuck to the windscreen at glide speed, making it difficult to see out, so you needed to side slip with power on to blow it away.

Looking inside the C172 or Tri-pacer with just lap straps and seeing the huge three band, medium frequency RADIO COMPASS dial in the middle and six inch square black panels for very high frequency wireless and high frequency sets beside it and a fishing reel in the ceiling with the trailing aerial wound on and a miniature windsock hanging under the belly making the aeroplane appear to be a boy ... lines of switches and lots of instruments… frightening!

Being out in the training area and having a good squiz around to see if there was any one else to witness your couple of flops off the top of an oval loop or a try at a roll, before returning home from spin and stall practice. The instructors had done a couple to overcome their boredom or exasperation at our ham fisted flying when out in the aero area ‘just showing us one.’
Remember the sudden smell of the earth again when you descended through the winter inversion after climbing up to seven grand to do spin and stall practice in the Tiger Moth.
There’d be the forgotten aroma of coal smoke, eucalyptus leaves and wattle that hadn’t gotten up into the clean air you’d been in, as you entered the brown murk and could finally make out the aerodrome off in front of you as you glided down homewards.
The dirt from the Chippy’s floor rushing up past your face, maybe getting in your eye, to stick to the canopy with a hiss of a marimba when your bum had air under it and the straps pressed hard into your shoulders.
Funny how this fear of stalls and spins crept in from instructor to instructor after the Chippy and Tiger Moths were sold off and club members flew in suits or at least a long sleeve, white shirt and tie inside cabin monoplanes with heaters. No thousand buck head phones in them… We listened to the speaker in the ceiling.
Today’s noise attenuated headsets won’t stop the continuous cicada’s screech inside older pilot’s heads, because they will have stuffed up THEIR cillas with their MP3 players jammed into their ears.
Dubbo, Wagga, Charleville… Longreach aeradio … not just Melbourne or Brisbane Centre then … blokes like FSO Griffo who knew their area implicitly and could help us out with their real local knowledge.
Chippies were responsible for this nowadays silly fear of stalls in my opinion, as many landed up as balls of twisted metal and strips of flapping fabric returning to the aerodrome on the back of trucks. Pilots pushing the stick real hard, but not hard enough to MOVE it forward and get out of the spin that got flatter and flatter the more they went round and round. Remember Chippy spins … howling nose down spiral dive initially, then BOP, the sudden nose rising as she settled into the spin, then the half, or was it one and a half, turns waiting for her to recover. Tiger Moths however, went in and out of spins with a vengeance… sudden and positive.
Going in … whoosh … the sudden being upside down and then nose pointing straight down for a moment… “Whaaa happened?”
A good sideslip where you got an abrupt wack in the side of the face with the frigid airflow… always glide approaches and the embarrassment of being heard trickling on some power because you misjudged when to close the throttle on base.
RVAC could be pretty frightening when Bally and Rossier started a screaming match behind the instructors counter and we students quaked on the other side not game to look at each other for fear of smirking and getting caught at it.
Bally going at Rossier in his Chermann accent… Rossier attacking in his Hungaarrrian one. ‘They hated each other.’ …‘Different sides during the war’ was the reported reason amongst us plebs. Rossier snapping at you, “Turn your mike off” and the fumbling with the silly little switch on the front of it which was way out in front of your face, to be able to be heard answering him. He knew the background noise from your mike made it harder to understand him with his awful accent. He’d be yelling at you from behind, because you’d forget to turn the mike on when answering and he didn’t know if you were ignoring him. Your head was within easy punching distance, if instructors needed to let you know his voice was one of the many coming through the phones and you missed what he was saying as you struggled with some manoeuvre.
A sudden punch in the back of the scone accompanied by, “I’m talking to you ….CLOT!” got your attention. Potts forgets that he did that to me. Denied it when we flew together years later in the nine and I told him the story… “I remember the day we….”
We students told each other Bally was a Stuka pilot and wondered how the enemy got a job in an Aussie aero club.
We respected nearly all the instructors because we knew they could really fly, even the C grades.
Never ascertained if the stories were true or not.
Like the RNSW, the Royal Vic had a cook/maid/housekeeper in the dining room (ours was a fussy, motherly, little widow lady) and there were pictures of Kingsford-Smith and old aeroplanes on the ‘Government green’ painted masonite walls, Leading off it was a hall with bedrooms off it for pilots staying the night.
There was respect for those with more experience and humility at our few hours and minimum knowledge. We knew our place. Not too much strutting around tarmacs with the same image in OUR heads that our mums have of their precious boy who’s dad’s are paying for the full time degree .
Funnily … most of us lament that we were ten years too late getting into flying. My father said the same and he started in 1937.
Grass is always greener?
It sure WAS.

[sixtiesrelic]

Eagle 86. I remember the report in the crash comic and that two bob bit just happened to roll into the wrong place at the wrong time.
I got the sole of my shoe jammed inbetween the rudder pedal and the overlap of the aly sheeting on the side wall once had had to push with the other foor to release it before I could get full rudder. I also did ten inadvertent extra spins once because I wqas pushing with maybe twenty four pounds of pressure not twenty six, so tyhe pole hadn't moved forward till I looked.
The green flying suit... yes weren't you Biggles when you got one of THEM. I sppose the lads feel the same when they get their golden wings and one gold bar to denote they're a student now.
Most old aeroplanes had their smell. DC-3 can get ya eyes watering after a long absence. TAAs Convairs, Dovers, Dragons all had their own smell as does the Tiger Moth and Chippie.

[Tmbstory]

Eagle 86:

The chipmunk involved in the accident was VH-FTA, the same aircraft that I used to instruct on. In those days Instructors were allocated to certain aircraft.

Tmb

[Tmbstory]

sixtiesrelic:

Good post and enjoyed the read, talking about dirt coming up off the floor, in those days we used oxygen masks with no oxygen but the microphone was in the mask. The instructor sat in the rear seat and on occasions when doing aerobatics or the weather was rough, some students would get airsick and vomit. The sight of it coming out of the sides of the mask were not the best and the feel of it not good either.

Great days.

Tmb

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Mr T,
Fast forward to a 'few' years later....

i was in the 'Wheatbelt' of WA instructing in 'Chippies', once again in RSK, and the student of the time felt a bit...*#@!!, and so he did 'it' out to the port side, whilst I 'cringed' to the stbd.

Then, he CHANGED SIDES, and I 'wore it'!!

ON landing, I reminded him that it was HIS responsibility to let me know if HE had had a 'rough night' the night before,....and it was HIS job to hose the aeroplane down...I hosed myself down thankyou very much....

:*:*

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Russ Evans is still alive and well, sharp as a tack ---- and still flying, I was speaking to him only several months ago.
Tootle pip!!

[Fantome]

Thank you old relique . .. . your Royal Vic reminiscences have brought back similar fond memories of salad days at the RAC of NSW. While Griffo who kicked all this off did say there are some stories better left unsaid, there is on the other hand the argument that once the subjects are with us no longer . . .. then social history is better served by describing what is recalled first hand. . . whether or not readers choose to regard such as 'nice' or scurrilous. Sanitised is simply not fair to the memory of red-blooded men who in one way or another made their mark. And deserve to be remembered as such.

We should not seek to to libel the dead . .. . . so much as put some metaphorical meat back on their bones.

When Bankstown still retained some of the flavour of it's formative years as primarily a military airfield, the clubhouse (long gone), hugging as it did the NW slopes of the aerodrome - all glass fronted with panoramic views across the field to Milperra Road - had nestling behind it a large hut. This was a wartime barrack building equipped with toilets and showers unchanged since the war. The rooms were tiny, fitted out with their no doubt original saggy iron framed beds, the mattresses stuffed with horse hair, the pillows filled with some stale smelling lumpy flocky stuff. Blankets - grey - troops for the use of. An evening of propping up the bar in company with some of the club's senior members was usually followed by wending a weavy way to the sack at closing time. A tricky little nav ex to be sure.

Much could be gleaned listening to these older members, most of whom flew in the RAAF - fighters, bombers or Tigershmitt trainers. As round followed round the stories became racier, raunchier, the laughter louder and longer. One night, well past the witching hour, I woke to the sound of singing coming from the other bed in the tiny room in the bunkhouse. The faint light from the passageway revealed one 'Blackjack' Walker lying there propped up on one elbow alternately swigging from his rum bottle and breaking into verse after verse of 'Eskimo Nell', followed by snatches of wartime ditties, songs of the Wirraway and the Beaufort. Maybe that was the same night on which earlier a young instructor who worked on the aerodrome was sitting outside the bar on the steps with his beer and a smoke. Blackjack walked up the steps from the dunnies underneath the building. 'Pardon me Brian' said the young blade - 'Could I get you to sign my logbook sometime?'

'What the f . . . for young fella. We've not flown together have we?'

'No sir. But one day when when I'm an old man, with what hair I have left as
white as snow like yours, I can look at your moniker and I'll say "Yep . . . he must have existed. He wasn't a figment, a legend, full of the most improbable stories I've ever heard." '.

Another Second World War veteran with a prediction for the rum was Chris Braund, a stammerer of
some distinction. It was he who introduced me to 'Inner Circle', a bottle of which he was never without on his many and varied sorties and peregrinations across Australia and New Guinea. We'd lobbed into
Roche's Albion Hotel in Parker Street Cootamundra at around one a.m.. 'See you in the morning Chris.'

'Ah . . ah . . d.d. don't turn in yet. We m.must have a l.little night cap.'

Among the more dedicated of drinkers (well pisspots - to be honest) frequenting the old aero club bar was a short tubby man with an incredible capacity for beer. Thomas A Long known to his intimates as 'Fat Cat'. The more he put away the more droll and scathing became his tongue. He put you in mind of John Norton, original proprietor of Sydney's TRUTH newpaper. A more lurid, lucid and locquacious man never made his mark in the old town. (He also excelled at alliteration.)

Stories Tom told of his chequered past sometimes beggared belief. Could he really piss out of the little side window of a 310 without injury or blow back? Was he really sacked by QF as a new SO for putting his dick through a hole he'd cut in his plastic lunch plate, then covering it with a lettuce leaf, then ringing for the hostie so as to ask her if she thought the meat was off?

Tom had the baleful eye of the lapsed catholic and the trenchant turn of phrase that goes with it. He claimed he'd been a novitiate at Saint Pat's at Manly, that imposing stone seminary occupying large grounds up the hill from the harbour. The story went they'd expelled him for pimping. He said that he was an agent for the night services of a prostitute who hawked the fork up in the bushes behind St Pat's.
That he was also a supplier of liquor and smokes to any of the young lads who were intent upon the road to purgatory. He said how else could he find the money to pay for his flying lessons.

Little wonder that further down the track, Tom's kidney's packed it in. At any rate he was down to one by the late sixties. Somehow he managed to retain his medical, being rarely deemed unfit by Farmy Joseph, his medico in Wagga. An indelible memory is that of seeing him pull up outside the hangar at Coota one morning in one of the company's 310s. Shutting down, he climbed out and walked with grim determination into our little flight office cum rest room. Obviously in extreme pain from renal cholic (kidney stones), he'd administer his own morphine.

In the Flight Service Unit at Wagga early one morning he'd collapsed at the table where he was filling in his flight plan. And he had such a morbid sense of humour too. If ever asked 'Is you father still alive?' he'd reply 'No! He's still dead.'

The RAC of NSW instructor who had the misfortune to have 'Fantome' as his pupil was the aforementioned Arthur Kell. Arthur had been a skipper on Lancs with 617 SQN. He'd missed the dams raid but he had won a gong for dropping a Tallboy on the Tirpitz up a Norwegian fiord one night. After the war he flew in Transport Command - Brittannias. Arthur's funeral service at St Phillips in Macquarie Street was conducted by the Rev Gordon Powell, a well known former RAAF padre who wrote a book on his wartime service in the RAAF in the Pacific attached to a Beaufighter squadron.

Poor Arthur and his pupil (Sorenson?) The loose coin had found it's way into the arse end of their Chippy, jamming in an elevator pully. The score marks on the coin proved that. And so it goes.

Afterthought on the club's really early days at Mascot. Among it's many notable members was Emile Mercier. He was one of Sydney and Australia's great cartoonists. His cover illustrations for the club's magazine FLYING in NSW were all very droll. Very artistic. It would be a pleasant exercise today to look over a set of those journals. When the club folded most of it's archive may well have gone to the tip.

[Frank Arouet]

As late as July 1992 the rooms at the back were marginally active despite the state of the ablutions block. Mate and I stayed there and the beds were as mentioned of the coir coconut or horse hair variety.

It must have closed after that date in my logbook. (27th July).

[eagle 86]

TMBStory,
Interesting - FTA was my favourite - shall consult my log book - more than likely it was the aircraft my mate and I were in when it was reluctant to come out of the spin.
GAGS
E86

[lamax]

And remember the files RACNSW instructors keep on DCA examiners which indicated their favourite subjects for instructor rating renewals. Surprised nobody has mentioned Spike Jennings, plenty of wisdom there! The collective experience of instructors in the mid 60s ( ex military, ex and current airline as well as experienced GA guys) makes the present crop of instructors look underdone.

[ad-astra]

Maybe urban myth but during my time working there in the 70s/80s the accommodation block was reputed to have been the VD clinic during the war years.

Never did ask whether you got 'it' or lost 'it' in those rooms!

[dhavillandpilot]

No accommodation block was the hospital for the RAAF base, my aunt was a nurse there for a period.

I remember the early 70's at the RNSWAC, good day, i'll never forget going out on a freezing winter morning to meet Stan Mobbs at 7AM to do an hours circuits in the "NEW" Cessna 150 VH-KPU.

The other memory was coming into the club after a weekend away flying, there was an air of comradreship that no longer exists. People spoke their minds be it the DCA people, the instructors, the students and other aviation people - no one was hated and everybody got on - now we have people who despise CASA, and those that have this air of superiority just because they wear a white uniform shirt.

My father who is now 92, was an instructor with the likes of Jimmy Minahan, prior to joining the airlines always says the 12 months instrcuting was some of the best year of his life - easy going

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ahh Stanley Q Mobbs - now there was a gentlemen. I did a bunch of flying with him at Rex Aviation in the early 80s. Aerobatics in a C152A (he had a low level approval in them) night circuits - great instructor with a great sense of fun...bordering on mischief:ok:

I doubt the statute of limitation is up so I won't relate my Stan story:E

[LeadSled]

The collective experience of instructors in the mid 60s ( ex military, ex and current airline as well as experienced GA guys) makes the present crop of instructors look underdone.

Folks,
Ain't that the truth, the larger clubs, like the Royals, had a mixture of salaried and volunteer instructors ---- now actively discouraged, which is a great pity.
The reasons for today's degradations of basic stick and rudder skills is not too hard to work out.

Memories of Chris Braund, who finished up in Cairns with Bushies, as I recall.
When he was with EWA, he seemed to be the core of a never ending series of stories, but one takes the cake:
One morning at (then) ASSY ( why did the public servants agree for us to loose the A for Y, we don't live in Yustralia) said Braund's DC-3 was cleared for takeoff on the old RW16. One of the new fangled B727 was on the ILS ( there was only one, RW07), and the tower has stuffed up the separation a bit, and cancelled the EWA t/o clearance, but CCCCChris was a bbbbbbit sssslow on the rrrreadback, so the tower sent the B727 around.

When finally the EWA was heard from, came the never forgotten "CCCCCChicken".

Back in those days, on 07, A very crisp " Sydney Tower, XXX, Glenfield inbound, left 3000" was the height of professionalism in announcing yourself on tower.

Not for our Chris, who, when the mood took him, would come out with something like (to the tune of the Aeroplane Jelly song) " Sssssssydney Ttttttttttower iiiiis our tttttttower, wwwwwwe hhhhhear then eeeeeevey dddddday etc".

There are some ripper stories of his days in the CAF Mustangs, including "orbiting" the Harbour (ostensible to check a boat in trouble) but he orbited the bridge verticaly !!
I often wondered if the stories of his then girfriend's farmer father running his tractor on avgas was true, with the "logged" flight time on a practice cross country allegedly being some what more than the actual genuine dinky dye flight time.
Tootle pip!!

[Tmbstory]

Fantome;

Recently I found out that Tom Long has passed away, he taught me a lot, especially instrument flying on the rain making contracts. Tom had one of the best pair of hands when hand flying of any pilot that I knew.

May he Rest in Peace.

Tmb

[Tmbstory]

Fantome,

I remember the time that Chris caused a stir by singing to Sydney Tower something like "Sydney Tower is our tower, we use it every day..........." Apparently singing helped with the stuttering.

Good days,

Tmb

[bob johns]

Wonderful times indeed as member F104, before Australia in general and aviation in particular lost its sense of humour.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And....the way it told around the Club was the second 'verse'

'AAnd, Ththis is EEWA, aand we're aabeam of Broken BBay.."

lamax mentioned Spike Jennings - Spike was ONE of the instructors I flew with - there were 'many'...didn't question it at the time. The ex RAAF system was entrenched. If you were 'roostered' to fly with 'x', you flew with 'x'.

As said in another thread, Spike certainly was a character - as they all were I suppose.
His account of being shot down twice in Italy in WW2 and being found by the Yanks in a vineyard accompanied by two (2) local girls, and 'almost sober'....and evading the Germans.

The second time around, he said he wore ARMY boots as they lasted longer when he had to 'walk back'. Those 'Silly' flying boots weren't made for walking.

When I asked him about his first flight in the Mustang he said it was at Mildura. He had opened the throttle 'a bit at a time'... a few times, got the tail up, and thought 'thats enuf!'
One day, he says, he 'left it a 'bit late' and when he looked down again the ground was about 20ft below him. He was passing a couple of thousand ft before he was game enough to move his hands and get the gear up.

His description of the landing was something to behold...especially at the bar to a 'young fella'....
You sort of looked straight ahead, thru the curved down side panels of the windscreen, as you rounded out, and... When the 'black' of the bitumen on one side turned to green - you knew you were on the grass...

BUT, one thing he did say that has 'stuck with' me, was that 'one day they will invent a gadget that you will pull out of your pocket, lick the suction pad, stick it on the panel, and there you are - the complete nav kit. And when you're finished, you unstick it, put it in ya pocket, and 'go home'.

And now with some 'pocket' GPS...wot do we do..??
Onya Spike.
Cheers:ok::ok:

[Fantome]

"Wings in the West - A History of the First Fifty Years of the Royal Aero Club of Western Australia" - Giles, R. O.

Rob Giles was a member of the club in the early thirties. He became an instructor, served in the RAAF and after the war was a manager with MMA following which he became state manager for TAA.

His book is highly readable as it gives a colourful account of the varying fortunes of a club that played an important role in civil aviation in Australia.
He sets each period in the more general context of the times. The picture he paints of Maylands in the thirties is graphic. At times it was a struggle to stay afloat. (Not a pun on the Swan that sometimes burst it's banks and flooded the aerodrome.) The clubs depended heavily on subsidies and other disbursements from the federal government . Some of it's DH Moths were acquired from the Civil Aviation Branch of the Defence Department that preceded DCA .
An important aspect of club life was it's thriving social side, with dinners and picnics and fly aways even in it's earliest days.

There is not a comparable history published about either Royal Vic or it's Bankstown, Archerfield or Parafield counterparts. Rob Giles earned high accolades for the thoroughness and liveliness of his book.

[Fantome]

When Tom's 7th ? child was born he received a telegram

DAD - PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT I ARRIVED THIS MORNING AT 5.30
ANTHONY

[bob johns]

Tommy Long Brian Walker Jim Hazelton Ray Clamback Minnie Hennessey Ray McLain Pat Harrington Bob Heyhoe (instructors ) and blokes that I flew with Mick Hutchins Bill Lazzerini and that is only at BK .!!25 years and near 13000 hrs in 5 countrys and never scratched an aeroplane or anything. except my car door when ,being an assault in the car park I thumped the blokes head into the first solid place that I could find. It turned out to be MY car!!A great learning experience if you wanted to learn.!

[bob johns]

my girl friend took off and hid, the car door was ,repairable, the drunk was battered, tattered, and (thank God ) not seen again. The sheila that took off came to PNG to marry me ,two kids3grand kids and 38 years on 16 March 12

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

ONYA Bob....Congrats!!!! And a VERY HAPPY anniversary to you both!!

:ok::ok:

Pat Harrington - flew with Pat a few times at 'Aircraft Rentals' under the careful watch of 'Father' Ray McLean.

Pat used to play the clarinet, I think it was....
:ok:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Pat Harrington was the bloke who wrote of Bushie's first Metro ( Emerald, I think) having previously written of a Commanche (250) on the 5th fairway at Pennant Hills Golf Club, and a C-182 in the hills, somewhere.

If I remember correctly, Bob Heyhoe went to ATC.

I well remember the afternoon Blackjack did a gear up in as Baron --- on an air test after a rebuild after a gear up --- back to DeHav's shed and start all over again. Gear up seemed to be Brian's specialty.

Re. Aircraft Rentals ---- "maintenance" done by Ed "Isiah" Fleming, called Isiah, as a result of a Mustang crash, leaving him with "One eyes higher than the other".

Tootle pip!!

[bob johns]

Griffo I think it was a saxaphone. you know ,the curly thing that looks like a coffin for a charter operator.And thanks for the best wishes.!!

[Jesta747]

My Grandfather was Eric Greathead!
He flew for Fly Illawarra for a long time to the best of my knowledge.
Unfrotunatly when i was younger I took a lot of the things i was told about his time as a pilot by him (passed in 1993) and my Father Eric Greathead Jr (passed in 2010):sad :sad:

So it wasn't till afterwards going through old boxes and finding great pictures of the mustangs (Vh-BOY & VH-BOZ) and the Sea fury (VH-BOU) and thinking back to being told as a kid, that i realized just how incredible his life was and how highly i think of him for it.
My brother and i have been hooked on aircraft since the day we were born because of him and my grandfather on my mother side who was in the C47's during WWII.

Anything anybody can tell me about Him, old stories, pilots he trained ect or even photos if you have any would mean the absolute world to me and my brother.

I've spent the last 2 years on and off digging up old photos of then and finding the 3 old war birds. but still would love to hear anything!.

Please feel free to email me. i just signed up to reply this! :ok:

[Escondido99]

I did Com plus Inst Rating with Nic Belloff mid 1956 did 12 months inst then
went to PNG good memories Bill Sherwood.

[nevces]

Owen would you be Phil's son? I knew him in my time at Kingies, '60-63.

Nev Lavers.

[triadic]

This is one of the best threads on pp - thought it was time to bring it to the top again.....

[Ascend Charlie]

Chris Braund lived over our back fence in Harbord back in the 50s. He bought 2 Mustangs for 50 quid each, and used to fly them to country airshows, doing flour bombing displays. He never hit much.

He had to sell one of them to pay for the X-ray crack tests on the wings of the other, then he had to sell the second one to pay for the d-d-d-divorce.

He was in the front of the Ennie-Weenie Airlines DC-3 with Kevin Crowe when I had my first powered flight as a passenger. (Flown in a glider before with my father, who had flown with both Chris and Kevin). What a hoot, standing between their seats, with a headset on, listening to the local radio station 2NZ (Inverell).

[Centaurus]

Learned to fly initially at Kingsford Smith Flying School at Bankstown in March 1951. Used to hitch-hike from railway station to aerodrome with just enough money in pocket to pay for one hour of dual and a sandwich. Three years earlier in 1948, I did first flight which was in a Lockheed Hudson VH-SMK at Camden with Sydney Morning Herald Flying Services. The pilot was Captain Harry Purvis AFC who used to be Charles Kingsford Smith ("Smithy") chief engineer. At KSFS, underwent dual in Tiger Moths VH-BNM. ATY, AUO. Instructors in those days were Stan Birtus and Jan Kingma who were former wartime Polish Air Force. Each flight was around 50 minutes chock to chock. Could hardly understand the thick foreign accents of Kingma and Birtus shouting down through the Tiger Moth Gosport Tube primitive intercom system. I was worried that I was wasting my hard earned money. Then had Tas Dalton for one 45 minute trip. He said practically nothing and when he did, he sounded bored fartless. My morale slumped.

Next flight was saved by the bell by wonderful instructor Bill Burns who sent me on first solo 26 May 1951. By then I had 8 hours of dual. Bill was ex Hudson wartime pilot and then Qantas flight safety manager who liked to keep in flying touch at KSFS.

Ten years later, around 1961 I was RAAF Command Aero Club Liaison Officer, testing Air Training Corps Flying Scholarship cadets at Royal Aero club of NSW. I think Bill Lord was CFI then? Flight Lieutenant John Williams and later Flight Lieutenant Mike Matters (both former Sabre fighter pilots) were the local RAAF Aero Club Liaison Officers responsible for the ATC flying scholarship cadets at Bankstown.

Back in 1951, Bankstown was all-over grass field with many aircraft of different types taking off and landing in parallel 'lanes' on the aerodrome. ATC sat in small tower and used Aldis Lamp light signals. From the Tiger Moth you watched the tower for signal lights when on final. No radio. Wind direction via Signal Square adjacent to tower. You quickly learned to keep your head swiveling both on the ground and when airborne. All approaches in Tiger Moths were glide approaches. Side slip if too high or go-around. If you needed power on final you had stuffed it. After landing in your chosen lane you stopped. Then turn at 90 degrees to check nothing landing on top of you from short final. Watched for flashing green from ATC then taxi like the clappers across the parallel lanes using airmanship to get to the tarmac.

Highlight experience at Bankstown? Battle of Britain Air Force Week Display in September (?) with Mustangs dropping napalm on the aerodrome well away from spectators of course. Huge gouts of red flame and black smoke as napalm canisters hit the ground and exploded in rolling fire. Most impressive. Don't think CASA would allow that now.

[Ascend Charlie]

Centaurus, you mentioned Smithy, my mother paid 2 pounds for a joyride with him - she reckoned it was marvellous, they operated from a tiny park in Neutral Bay and flew around the harbour. She later became the personal secretary to Sir Hudson Fysh, one of the Qantas founders.

[Centaurus]

Ascend C. What wonderful history for you. I wonder if your mother got a selfie with Smithy with a Box Brownie of those days? If you have time read the book "Outback Airman" by Harry Purvis with Joan Priest published in 1979 and probably held in most libraries and certainly available on the internet. In it there are many stories of Smithy and Harry Purvis flying together. Maybe Neutral Bay joy rides are mentioned.

His story in the book of how he took the surrender of 10,000 fully equipped Japanese troops in Bali at the end of the war is both serious and amusing. Knowing the Japanese General nor his aide nor any of the officers had any English, Harry signed the surrender document as "Franklin Delano Roosevelt." In fact Harry Truman was then President.. Roosevelt had died a few months earlier
I corresponded with Harry Purvis for many years until his death due cancer in Cairns in 1980.
See: https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/outback-airman/author/harry-purvis/

[nreese]

A BIll Lord story - Bill's (ex) wife Barbara was one of my mother's best friends and a bridesmaid at my parents' wedding. My father was a RAAF / QANTAS pilot. I was learning to fly at Kingsford Smith Aviation at Bankstown in 1990. I was keen for my father to go for a fly with me, but he would only do so once I had my twin endorsement (after all, he had four engines!!). With my newly minted endorsement on a B76 Duchess, my father readily agreed to go for a 'check ride' (him checking me). We arrived at Bankstown and were walking down to the KSA hanger and I asked my father if he had ever flown at Bankstown. He said "Ahh, about 20 years ago with Bill Lord". He then glanced across the apron and said "There he is now! Bill!! Bill!!", and my father trotted off to have a quick catch up with Bill Lord. Sadly, Bill was killed in VH-CAG at Tocumwal not long after. My father later said he shouldn't have been flying as he was "deaf and blind", but the CAA needed him as he was so experienced ... I'm sure with Bill's experience he could have flown by brail!

[Bodie1]

They got SEX, a PA-30. Instructions were when booking the acft, do NOT even think of asking the receptionist for....

Ha! I've found this aircraft, sitting in a hangar in Was-Vegas!

[Lookleft]

Sadly, Bill was killed in VH-CAG at Tocumwal not long after. My father later said he shouldn't have been flying as he was "deaf and blind", but the CAA needed him as he was so experienced ... I'm sure with Bill's experience he could have flown by brail!

If that was the accident where the CAA Bonanza collided with a glider at Tocumwal then your father was accurate in his assessment.

[roundsounds]

Centaurus, my Dad was an instructor at RACNSW early/mid 1960s, I was only a very young lad then. I recall dad talking about Arthur Kell being the CFI, unfortunately Arthur was killed in a spinning accident in a Chippy (VH-FTA), the 20c coin caught in flight control system incident.

[Dora-9]

I recall dad talking about Arthur Kell being the CFI, unfortunately Arthur was killed in a spinning accident in a Chippy (VH-FTA), the 20c coin caught in flight control system incident.

That was Arthur Kell, DFC and Bar, the aircraft was VH-FTA (C1-0499) which crashed near Cobbity NSW 27.1.1968. I'm perhaps a fraction older than you, Roundy - I was charter flying in WA at the time and can still remember the shock waves through the GA ranks following this accident.

[lamax]

Arthur trained me 65 to 68, a great instructor and true aviation person, spent a day at his home being show his model collection and other aviation stuff. He was not CFI in my time with the RACNSW.

[nreese]

A contributing factor to the VH-CAG accident was that the Bonanza and glider were on different frequencies - one for GA and one for the gliders (which I still think is a strange decision) ...

[Advance]

A good thread Griffo.
But you did not mention the RACNSW member who thought the dining room's oyster shells were reused and just loaded up with bottled oyster meat.
To check the theory this member used to scribe his initials into the used shells with the tip of his dividers.
Didn't he Griffo?
Result?????

RACNSW had a clay pigeon shotgun range outside the club and it was not uncommon to hear pellets rattling on the fuselage of the C172 when taxying from Illawarra past the Aero Club to the threshold of 11 or 18.
How did we all survive?

But great to be reminded of all the names of many who taught me back in the good old days.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

AAAHHH..... Oi have no recollection of that, Sir......
(Too much 'red'...)

Used to hear the shotgun pellets rattling off the Chippy's wing though, when taxying from the Club and the wind was right....

Cheeerrrsss....

Ch yr 'PM's' Mr A......

[Pinky the pilot]

(Too much 'red'...)

Griffo! Nogat sem bilong yu?? := ( Trs; Aren't you ashamed of yourself?)

There is no such thing as 'too much Red.' !!:ugh::E


(signed) Pinky the Pilot.
"A Son of the Barossa"
Barossa Valley born and raised.
"Bei Tanunda once."

[KRUSTY 34]

Griffo! Nogat sem bilong yu?? := ( Trs; Aren't you ashamed of yourself?)

There is no such thing as 'too much Red.' !!:ugh::E


(signed) Pinky the Pilot.
"A Son of the Barossa"
Barossa Valley born and raised.
"Bei Tanunda once."

Now Pinky, that could have been written in reference to a former RAAF Flt Lt, whom I flew bank runs with in the early/mid 90’s. He lived at the club, and was rather partial to a bottle of red.

As most of us were I hasten to say.

[Centaurus]

who told us all about the 'experimental' Prone Position Gloster Meteor, where the 'experimental' pilot was housed in a 'forward' cockpit, added onto the nose of a 'standard' Meteor, the last production aircraft actually

One of the test pilots on the prone Meteor was Eric Franklin DFC AFC. Eric was later a test pilot with A.V. Roe at Woodford, Cheshire when I was there as a RAAF pilot in 1966/67. Eric did my conversion to the RAAF HS 748 VIP version which I ferried back to Canberra. Eric Franklin was a gentleman and a first class instructor.

[Checkboard]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/730x362/prone1_ad481c15fbbb75c647a7a29673b93bceaa0ccc83.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x320/prone2_6b6903bc1ae80e6d1972bd1f6fb81ae283de4999.jpg

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

'Slight' thread drift here fellas , this started off in the Old Fliers Group thread, however......
Thanks for the excellent illustrations Mr C.

There were some 'limitations'. Like, how could the 'prone' pilot see UP?
As can be imagined, in an emergency, the poor fella in the front had a whole list of things to go thru before he could 'slide down - out the back'.
Including ensuring that the nosewheel was retracted ! But then, if he was 'that' close to the ground.....well.......

The other fella in the normal cockpit went out with a bang - thanks to Messrs Martin - Baker.

Thank goodness common sense prevailed.....