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AOJM
20th Feb 2012, 18:29
Hello all,

I've been around on the forums for a while, although I have recently decided upon a name change as I 'outgrew' the old one.

Back to the point,

I'm currently a member of a University Air Squadron, I've been solo and I'm progressively advancing more and more through the syllabus, however, I would very much like to hold a UK PPL and understand that I could use the hours gained from the UAS towards one.

I also hear that to be the case until April/March when military hours will no longer count.

Could anyone please confirm and suggest ways in which I may still be able to use these hours towards a PPL as oppose to starting from scratch and not spending an extra few thousand?

Thanks very much

BEagle
21st Feb 2012, 06:27
I also hear that to be the case until April/March when military hours will no longer count.

Where did you hear that?

AOJM
21st Feb 2012, 13:24
A wing commander from high wycombe talking on the conversation of hours.

Military hours is a very broad term, I apologise. Specifically UAS hours.

blagger
21st Feb 2012, 13:34
I see no reason why your UAS hours won't count towards a PPL in the future, as long as they are with a QFI rather than AEF hours. The changes from Apr 12 are for military exemptions rather than just hours as I understand it, for example the EFT course completion ground exam / flight test exmeptions will probably go.

AOJM
21st Feb 2012, 15:00
Thanks Blagger,
I see what your saying which seems more logical.

I'll ask my CFI tomorrow and see what he knows. I was looking to see if anyone had any rough knowledge for discussion.

Appreciated

Genghis the Engineer
21st Feb 2012, 15:30
From LASORS 2010...

Any previous flying experience in single-engine piston
(Land) aeroplanes gained during any Service Elementary
Flying Training Courses including the UAS Flying Course
(that commenced prior to November 2000, or incomplete
courses from any period of time) may be counted
towards the requirements for the grant of a JAR-FCL
PPL(A). Applicants wishing to claim credits against these
requirements will be required to attend a Registered
Facility or approved FTO and provide logbook evidence of
their training (certified by their military course instructor)
to the Chief Flying Instructor. The CFI will then establish a
course of training taking into account previous experience
to ensure that the specific requirements of C1.2 have
been met.

In addition to any flying training required (where there
is a shortfall of requirements), applicants will be
required to complete one cross-country flight of at least
270km (150nm), during which full stop landings at two
aerodromes other than the aerodrome of departure shall
be made, pass all JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge
examinations* and pass the PPL(A) skill test.

* If the graduate is now a UK QSP(H) credits will be
given for the Navigation & Radio Aids and Meteorology
examinations.


(Section C1, page 6).

Presumably a UAS cadet who does not become a Qualified Service Pilot (QSP), qualifies as having done "incomplete courses from any period of time" ?

G

Fake Sealion
21st Feb 2012, 15:47
GTE has it about right. However, as it states the CFI at the FTO must be able to examine your log book from UAS flying to determine exactly what post solo exercises you have completed. They don't correspond with equivalent PPL course exercises.

foxmoth
21st Feb 2012, 22:16
They don't correspond with equivalent PPL course exercises.

Certainly when I went through service training they were almost identical in content.:confused:

Fake Sealion
21st Feb 2012, 22:33
Quote:
They don't correspond with equivalent PPL course exercises.
Certainly when I went through service training they were almost identical in content.

My service training was back in late 70s - the UAS course then included solo aerobatics and solo formation flying.

I guess things may be different nowadays?

Whopity
22nd Feb 2012, 12:30
Where did you hear that?CAA Website in the Latest CAA Notice (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/IN_2012_029%20Cessation%20of%20Military%20Credits%20of%20QSP %20v1.0.pdf)

Fake Sealion
22nd Feb 2012, 13:07
Quote:
Where did you hear that?
CAA Website in the Latest CAA Notice

This does seem rather odd?

So does a Grob/Tucano/Hawk & Typhoon qualified pilot now have to undertake the entire PPL syllabus and all the theory exams if he wants to fly a Cessna 152?

What the score with NPPL/LPL credits?

AOJM
22nd Feb 2012, 20:27
Thanks for your help guys,

foxmoth
22nd Feb 2012, 21:40
My service training was back in late 70s - the UAS course then included solo aerobatics and solo formation flying

Yes, did the same on mine (and about the same time), but these were on top of the normal PPL post solo exercises and IIRC the only bits that might have been missing were Radio nav and qualifying Xcountry.

AOJM
23rd Feb 2012, 09:31
Upcoming on my syllabus;

Sector recce, Solo Nav, low level nav, formation, aerobatics, basic intrument flying

Fake Sealion
23rd Feb 2012, 12:20
Upcoming on my syllabus;

Sector recce, Solo Nav, low level nav, formation, aerobatics, basic intrument flying

Sounds about the same as in my day. Out of interest AOJM how many instructional hours is a UAS stude entitled to these days?

I did about 90 hrs in 2 yrs - Bulldog

I had heard the bean counters had taken a large axe to it?

AOJM
23rd Feb 2012, 13:21
In the books each UAS cadet is entitled to 10 Hours per year. The most i've seen is 150 + from a 4-5 year pilot bursar!

In the defence review the UAS was hindered marginally i believe, there is a small budget allocated compared it's value to the air force according to OC 22 Group who visited the sqn. We are downsizing our THQ and wales has had theirs demolished to cut costs.

Bear 555
23rd Feb 2012, 20:45
And I came in here looking to read about Unmanned Aircraft Systems . . .

doh

BEagle
23rd Feb 2012, 21:31
They're known as drones.

The revised military accreditation agreement is still awaited........

AOJM
24th Feb 2012, 19:58
Ha,

My apologies for not using the full title!

Romeo Kilo
27th Feb 2012, 08:12
One thing I noticed a few weeks ago when trying to write up my UAS hours was that the little orange UAS logbooks (RAF F414 [UAS]) do not have space to record actual time of departure and actual time of arrival, only durations of sorties and creditable hours. Actual times are required, as I understand it, should you wish to gain any sort of civy license when the CAA/FCL/whoever have a look at your logbook. So, in order to save yourself a rather long and tedious trawl through auth sheets in a year or two, record this information somewhere.

Perhaps a civvy logbook would be the place? But then you've got the whole taxi-time palaver as well - I'll leave that for someone else yo go through.. as I don't think I'm quite clear on it yet! :}

As for the flying available to students - I left in July, and the biggest hindrance to flying was those pesky EFT full-timers stealing (breaking?) all the aircraft!

RK

blagger
27th Feb 2012, 08:14
As long as the flying is certified as correct by the OC UAS I've never know it being a problem not having the take off and landing times.

Fake Sealion
27th Feb 2012, 10:06
As far as I know recording the "start finish times" are not actually mandatory.
However, my Service logbook is based on time in the air. In the civvy world hours recorded are essentially based upon brakes off to brakes on time. See LASORS for the strict definition. Therefore you can as I understand it revise your UAS hours to reflect this taxi time.

Notwithstanding this, it is still the case that whatever "credits" you have on paper you need to demonstrate the level of skill/experience to pass the GST.

I didn't have to claim "hours credit" as such towards my NPPL as I am an exQSP but if you want the latest info on Service/civvy log book comparisons try the CAA themselves or try a post on the Military Aircrew part of Pprune.

mrmum
27th Feb 2012, 15:49
Personal flying log book
Article 79.........
....(3) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (2) must include:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder of the log book embarked on and
disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when the holder was acting in either capacity......
From the ANO, no actual need to log brakes off/on times, although very common to see columns for this many logbooks.

AOJM
29th Feb 2012, 20:15
Thanks for all your input,

Correct there is not T/O and Land column in the orange book i've got.. Thinking I should 'be safe than sorry' maybe.

Genghis the Engineer
1st Mar 2012, 07:01
It is normal practice to record brakes off and brakes on times in civil logbooks, but not - in the UK at least, legally required. It's also worth remembering that whilst the military log take off to landing, civil flying logs brakes off to brakes on, which is longer.

G

BEagle
1st Mar 2012, 07:53
The simplest solution is to buy a civil logbook. Then:

Record flight time in the civil log book under civil rules
Record flight time in the UAS school exercise book under military rules

And fill in the logbook every evening! UAS students were notoriously bad at logging flights - I certainly was when I was a student! But there's so little flying these days that there really should be no excuse.

AOJM
1st Mar 2012, 11:35
The rule i've heard is that for every military hour you can add 10 mins when coverting to civvi hours.

Although I prefer the idea of logging in two seperate books with two seperate rules as i've had to wait at the hold for over 30 mins before.. would of counted in civvi terms.. hehe

Genghis the Engineer
1st Mar 2012, 14:17
The rule i've heard is that for every military hour you can add 10 mins when coverting to civvi hours.

Although I prefer the idea of logging in two seperate books with two seperate rules as i've had to wait at the hold for over 30 mins before.. would of counted in civvi terms.. hehe

I agree. I've heard the 10 minute figure as well, but accuracy seems so much more sensible!

There are plenty of different civil logbooks to choose from - personally I'd recommend either the CAA's CAP 407, or Pooley's professional logbook, both easily compatible with Military logbooks.

G

blagger
1st Mar 2012, 17:11
The taxi time allowance stuff is in LASORS Section A Appendix B, but it states in there it won't be accepted towards licence issue requirements. I strongly advise take up BEagles advice of running a parallel civvy logbook with chocks times in.

flyingcyclist
6th Sep 2012, 15:34
Can anyone confirm yet whether "exemptions" means being disallowed hours completely? All of the supporting documents are fairly ambiguous, I'm just looking for a definite yes/no.

David Balfour
8th Apr 2019, 18:15
I'm in almost the same situation, including hours and dates. I sent you a message but I'm still a probationary person so no inbox.

Did you solve your problem and get your licence?

olster
9th Apr 2019, 12:24
Unfortunately and rather scandalously UAS hours count for precisely zero credit towards an EASA ppl. My son has found this out the hard way. Previously it was possible to credit some hours towards an lapl. Not anymore. My son acquired 95 hours over 5 years at UAS. Now on the modular route to an atpl with no credit. Go figure. Coupled with vat on flight training this is nothing short of ridiculous.

Whopity
9th Apr 2019, 15:29
The wonders of half baked Europrean bureaurcracy.

olster
9th Apr 2019, 16:42
Indeed, whopity. I have tried to raise this with Balpa and zero interest generated. When apparently a pilot shortage, known barriers to flight training due expense, the UAS system is vetoed for no apparent reason. The trainees are uni students, selected, trained by current Air Force QFIs, aerobatics, solo etc and their flight time counts for foxtrot alpha. Unbelievable really.

timprice
9th Apr 2019, 18:33
Well at least they have nice experience's to look back on in the mobile phone pictures etc:O

Whopity
9th Apr 2019, 18:33
One way is to go to the USA and do a FAA PPL where you will get credits, then convert to EASA.

selfin
9th Apr 2019, 19:03
Or Canada which has a more aligned syllabus, considerably less bureaucracy and lower prices and fees.

anchorhold
14th Apr 2019, 18:02
What happens if the UAS instructor happens to be a civilian UK or EASA FI, the aircraft is UK registered, can the instruction then not be counted?

Whopity
14th Apr 2019, 23:14
No, because it was not conducted in accordance with the regulation. Needs an ATO or RTF to be valid. Even JAA training conducted at a RTF or ATO is no longer valid.

olster
17th Apr 2019, 11:25
Unfortunately you are spot on, Whopity. Makes no sense but there you go.

ASRAAMTOO
22nd Apr 2019, 15:24
Hours already flown can't be salvaged, but for the future what is there to stop any UAS declaring itself a DTO ( if any of its QFI's have an appropriate civilian qualification). Its a fairly small cost and perhaps the students could share the cost between themselves to make their hours loggable.

Not sure what Training Command would think of the plan however!

Whopity
22nd Apr 2019, 16:55
Not sure what Training Command would think of the plan however! Training Command ceased to exist decades ago, even PTC is long gone.

ASRAAMTOO
22nd Apr 2019, 19:25
Oh, alright then 22 Group!

BEagle
23rd Apr 2019, 07:01
Even if a UAS attempted to become a DTO, it would need to deliver a recognised Part-FCL LAPL or PPL course in accordance with a CAA-validated training manual.

The idea is rather a non-starter.

If there's someone prepared to make the effort, try investigating the possibility of the CAA adopting a 'modular LAPL' course under Regulation (EU) 2019/430, tailored to UAS flying training.

ASRAAMTOO
23rd Apr 2019, 16:41
Its been a while, so to be honest I don't know what the current UAS syllabus includes. I have been told it is less comprehensive than it once was. Honest question, what is required for either the LAPL or PPL that is not taught on a UAS. My recollection is that years ago the only item missing was the solo landaway, and since all of the syllabi have changed since then....

Ideal solution would be for the RAF to submit the UAS training manual to the CAA for approval. As you say thats unlikely to happen but realistically what is in the AFE/Pooleys books that a UAS does not cover these days?

BigEndBob
6th May 2019, 08:04
After 40 years in aviation and 30 odd instructing, 20 as PPL examiner, i'm just about fed up of flying and all the ridiculous requirements the authorities come up with.
What a complete mess with various licences, medicals, total disregard for any previous experience.
I have a chap at the moment with some 15 hours experience with UAS, but for now i have said let's complete the PPL syllabus and then find out what the latest is regards his experience and then make up the short fall. Even if it's just supervised solo.

olster
16th May 2019, 07:18
After 40 years in aviation and 30 odd instructing, 20 as PPL examiner, i'm just about fed up of flying and all the ridiculous requirements the authorities come up with.
What a complete mess with various licences, medicals, total disregard for any previous experience.
I have a chap at the moment with some 15 hours experience with UAS, but for now i have said let's complete the PPL syllabus and then find out what the latest is regards his experience and then make up the short fall. Even if it's just supervised solo.

I completely agree with you Bob. My son flew 95 hours UAS. His hours count for nothing towards a civilian licence. It is truly Alice in Wonderland stuff rubber stamped by half baked bureaucracy underpinned by a disinterested and useless regulator that pays its chief exec 800k per year. A minister for Aviation equally unacquainted with flying and in line with most of her political colleagues in terms of lack of competence. There you go.

BEagle
16th May 2019, 12:36
Sorry, but you're blaming the wrong people! NOT the CAA, it was the RAF, more specifically 22Trg Gp, who totally failed to ensure that UAS or EFT flying could be counted towards a Part-FCL licence.

At one point I was told by someone from their squirearchy that "22Gp have no knowledge of UAS training" - and on another "We can't support allowing UAS training towards a Part-FCL licence, because the instructors don't meet EASA requirements....".

With lunatics like that running the asylum of UAS/EFT these days, there's not much likelihood of any improvement without a lot of staff work, which no-one seems to think is worth pursuing these days.

I was at a CAA/EASA/industry meeting many years ago at Gatwick and asked the question "Will current military credits continue as they are under EASA?". The EASA lady assured us all that they would and the Head of Licensing nodded sagely.

But that didn't happen - because the RAF failed to make an adequate case. When their abject failure came to light, they even wrote an Internal Briefing Note telling people not to comment on the matter on social media.... Fat chance of that!

olster
16th May 2019, 16:13
Sorry, but you're blaming the wrong people! NOT the CAA, it was the RAF, more specifically 22Trg Gp, who totally failed to ensure that UAS or EFT flying could be counted towards a Part-FCL licence.

At one point I was told by someone from their squirearchy that "22Gp have no knowledge of UAS training" - and on another "We can't support allowing UAS training towards a Part-FCL licence, because the instructors don't meet EASA requirements....".

With lunatics like that running the asylum of UAS/EFT these days, there's not much likelihood of any improvement without a lot of staff work, which no-one seems to think is worth pursuing these days.

I was at a CAA/EASA/industry meeting many years ago at Gatwick and asked the question "Will current military credits continue as they are under EASA?". The EASA lady assured us all that they would and the Head of Licensing nodded sagely.

But that didn't happen - because the RAF failed to make an adequate case. When their abject failure came to light, they even wrote an Internal Briefing Note telling people not to comment on the matter on social media.... Fat chance of that!


Beagle I bow to your extra knowledge in this area. Nevertheless it is very frustrating and unfair particularly for cash strapped kids leaving uni who could do with financial assistance. I am not saying my son is Chuck Yeager but he did well through his ppl but as his instructor said “I wish everyone started with 95 hours!”

Cheers

BigEndBob
16th May 2019, 19:08
I completely agree with you Bob. My son flew 95 hours UAS. His hours count for nothing towards a civilian licence. It is truly Alice in Wonderland stuff rubber stamped by half baked bureaucracy underpinned by a disinterested and useless regulator that pays its chief exec 800k per year. A minister for Aviation equally unacquainted with flying and in line with most of her political colleagues in terms of lack of competence. There you go.


And now i have student from 6 odd years ago, almost finished his PPL, but stopped.
I gave him the fatal advice to ask the CAA via email, what might be allowed, get it n black and white.
He had no reply from the CAA, so he phoned to be told they had one person dealing with 500 emails.
They couldn't give him an answer.

BEagle
16th May 2019, 22:24
And now I have student from 6 odd years ago, almost finished his PPL, but stopped.

Training conducted after Apr 2012 is acceptable; obviously all relevant records from the previous RF/DTO must be complete. All exams will need to be taken again, but apart from that training should simply continue from where it left off, with a bit of refresher training.

Why ever did you feel the need to contact the CAA? Your CFI / HoT should know this stuff!

Whopity
17th May 2019, 07:33
He had no reply from the CAA, Hardly surprising, busy or otherwise. The CAA ceased giving personal assessments years ago and so are not established to do so. Under EASA it is the role of the ATO/DTO to do this and where necessary provide a report of their assessment and training required/conducted.

RV_SLG
13th Dec 2022, 15:35
Hi AOJM,
I just wondered whether you had received the full info you needed?
I am an instructor based at Denham and recently completed the training for twin sons both recent UAS members (OUAS and CUAS). Both utilised their max allowed military hours and received their LAPL licenses from the CAA last month. We have put together some documentation to help other similar ex UAS pilots fulfil their dreams of achieving a civilian pilots license (PPL or LAPL)
Do let me know if you would like any more help or advice!
Happy flying