US Admirals Club....Take Care of Their Own!

[SASless]

Junior splashes a USAF RF-4C with a missile during a One v One ACM mission....refuses to admit making a mistake...and not only stays in the Navy but winds up being nominated for promotion to Admiral years later.

Tell me the Admiral's Club ain't real!

Admiral nominee rose through ranks despite 'illogical act' - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/16/admiral-nominee-rose-through-ranks-despite-illogic/?page=1)

A bit of background....

A War Game Error: Navy Plane Downs Air Force Jet - Philly.com (http://articles.philly.com/1988-04-24/news/26250852_1_timothy-w-dorsey-backup-mission-vital-role-people)

[VinRouge]

Legend!

I wonder if they Hi-5's back on deck and told the air force crew they "could be my wingman any time". :E

[Wensleydale]

US Admirals Club


They insure all their aircraft on just one policy - its cheaper!

[Roadster280]

I thought you meant this bankrupt bag of poo! (http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/airportAmenities/AdmiralsClub.jsp?anchorLocation=DirectURL&title=admiralsclub)

[SASless]

The Dorsey family history seems a bit conspicuous by its absence when doing some googling.....Junior's Daddy was a VADM at retirement, and was CTF Three at one time. A suspicion is that Granddaddy was an Admiral as well. Some names show up but not a lot of information....very limited in what I could find.

As Daddy was an Admiral....whence came my comment about the "Admiral's Club"....as there very definitely is one in our Navy.

"Fall From Glory: The Men Who Sank The Navy" ISBN-13: 978-0684832265) sheds a lot of light on how the Admirals Club works.

[oxenos]

Does this mean promotion for Froggy John?

[glojo]

An absolutely priceless snippet:

He said Thursday that he did not want to discuss the shoot-down or his career because he is about to take a Navy Reserve intelligence post.
Bites lip and sits on typing digits :D:D

[SASless]

OH! Crap! This gets better! It runs in the family for sure.....Daddy shot down his own Wingman during the Vietnam War!

There is a book to be written here......or a movie....


USN F-14 shoots down USAF RF-4C | Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/usn-f-14-shoots-down-usaf-rf-4c.121522/)

This very same LTJG’s father was an active Navy Vice Admiral who, when flying combat missions in Vietnam, accidentally shot down his wingman.

The post by AE2 Mac makes for some interesting reading. ADM Boorda later became CNO....but committed Suicide after some trouble where he was accused of wearing decorations he had not earned. He was supposed to have been a very good Officer and there is some controversy over those allegations.

[glojo]

Hopefully not off topic as this refers to the same warship in possibly similar circumstances although this time there were sadly five fatalities

Click (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_%28DM_357%29)

[SASless]

When I was an NIS Special Agent....now NCIS....we had a saying...."Zero's took no hits!"...referring to the results of our investigations once turned over to the Command for action.

In those days...the actual Command involved...had to request NIS perform an investigation, the Command was briefed of the status of the investigation, provided copies of all reports, statements, and documentary evidence, and at the end of the investigation was then handed a final report for their use in whatever action they determined appropriate.

The Navy was well known for being busier than Cats covering Poop whenever something bad or embarassing happened. Usually the very worse an Officer of the Rank of Commander or above could expect was early retirement with no loss of rank or pay.

[glojo]

This example highlights (http://gohawaii.about.com/od/history/ss/tragedy_at_sea_2.htm) what SASLess is alleging and is also possibly in keeping with the title of the thread. page 2 has a link to the very detailed NTSB report which does not make pleasant reading.

I read the de-classified transcripts of the Board of Inquiry and the commanding officer of the US Navy vessel was EXTREMELY fortunate to be dealt with before an Admiral's Mast and allowed to resign!!!.

[Lonewolf_50]

Two comments: IIRC, after the shootdown, the USAF crew was picked up by the Sea King from the carrier where the nitwits in the Tomcat were based. I think. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for that one.


ADM Boorda later became CNO....but committed Suicide after some trouble where he was accused of wearing decorations he had not earned. He was supposed to have been a very good Officer and there is some controversy over those allegations.

Hackworth was correct about Boorda and his medals. It was a bit of a salt in the wound issue, given that Boorda, as a sailor, was a PN (Personnelman) and in that role had to known the ins and outs of such regs very, very well.
It's part of the craft.
As a 3 star, he was chief of personnel ... BuPers in old Navese ... and once again, would have known that part of the system very well.

If Hackworth was not right, ADM Boorda would not have looked himself in the eye one morning and not liked what he saw ... and taken a case of self loathing to an extreme, and tragic, conclusion.

I encountered ADM Boorda a few times in the fleet, and once got to meet with him in a group setting with a bunch of O-4 and O-5 level officers: a "meet the CNO" deal.

He cared a lot about how he'd achieved the unlikely ... going from seaman to admiral, and then becoming the CNO, which was a first ever for a former sailor.
One of his major talking points, and a valid one, was "take good care of your sailors, and they'll take care of you, your mission, and our Navy."

Like him or not, I'd say he lived and breathed Navy from dawn to dusk.

It is my guess that before he picked up the pistol, he came to the conclusion that he'd let down the side by setting a less than stellar example. :(

SASless, as to the Admiral's club taking care of their own, the Tailhook Convention of '91, and the backlash from that, was a classic example. :mad:

[SASless]

The DOD IG Report (Part One of Two). The first few paragraphs pretty well lays out the shortcomings of the Navy's efforts to "investigate" Tail Hook.

http://mith.umd.edu//WomensStudies/GenderIssues/SexualHarassment/tailhook-91


Part Two of Two.

http://http://mith.umd.edu//WomensStudies/GenderIssues/SexualHarassment/Tailhook-91-part2/sect1



Then there is the "other" Tail Hook Scandal....the one where politics interfered with the dispensing of "Justice". Where the laws of evidence and due process was denied to those accused of wrong doing in an over reaction to Command failures. The Admirals walked but lesser ranks paid the price.

Duke Journal of Gender Law & Policy: Kingsley R. Browne, Military Sex Scandals From Tailhook To The Present:The Cure Can Be Worse Than The Disease, 14 Duke J. of Gender L. & Pol'y 749 (2007) (http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?14+Duke+J.+Gender+L.+&+Pol%27y+749#H2N3)

A final link.....one Woman's summary of how all this came to be...and without a doubt she lays out a very damning explanation for what should have been clearly foreseen as a looming disaster by Senior Navy Officials. But...as she and others have noted....SECNAV John Lehman, who got to be a Navy A-6 Crew Member by questionable means....was an active participant in the carrying on!

Tailhook « Angry Army Wife (http://angryarmywife.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/tailhook/)

[Lonewolf_50]

Angry Army Wife article has a number of errors and inaccuracies, but that doesn't change the fact that in 1991, a party got beyond out of hand, and that Navy leadership decided to try and create a smokescreen rather than do the right thing.

I wasn't at Tailhook 1991 (in fact, I only ever went to one, over a decade before) and yet my wings got dragged through the muck ... :mad:

But I digress.

[WWeasel]

I was in the USAF at the time, and was the last of 4 investigations on the shootdown. The Navy did 2 and the Air Force did 2. Dorsey claimed that he thought that he was being ordered to fire. There were other problems beyond his mistake. One was that the flight, a two ship of F-14s was originally scheduled to fly air combat maneuvers against 2 F-16s out of Aviano AB. The regulations clearly forbid live ordnance loaded for those missions. I suspect that is the reason that the Captain of the Saratoga was disciplined. Incidentally, the pilot of the RF4C showed up in my unit about 6 months later, upon claiming that he had no "tactical handle", we named him Squidly. He hated it instantly, so of course it stuck.

[Lonewolf_50]

WWeasel, thanks for the insight.

Love the call sign, though "sharkbait" might have worked as well. :E

[saudipc-9]

"Hoo Hoo Haa!"