Fuel Pan/Mayday Decleration

[VHCookie monster]

I cant find the relevent information in the AIP. Is it MANDATORY to declare Pan-pan-pan if you THINK you MAY eat into your reserves? And again, is it MANDATORY to declare mayday if you actually do?
I'm from australia, so Australian rules only... Cheers http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[ElitePilot]

Not sure on the Ozzie regs but i'd say it would be inline with ICAO as you suggested.
Either way the policy would be very clear in you're airlines Operations Part A manual. (eg. Mayday when fuel becomes less than final reserves and Pan if it becomes evident to land with less than minimum fuel)

[Jockster]

My understanding is (as I've actually had to do it) a PAN if you think you might land with less than reserves and a MAYDAY if you know you will. I don't wait to be at the reserve fuel level before declaring a MAYDAY.

[ElitePilot]

It's important to keep atc in the loop of how much fuel (time) you have if its getting tight and traffic is high/weather bad before you reach minimum fuel.
Minimum fuel and final reserves can have different meanings too... (eg. You can burn you're alternate fuel if you meet certain conditions allowing a no drama landing with final reserves/more than).

[VHCookie monster]

Is that a company SOP or legislation/regulation somewhere?

[Jockster]

Company (BA) SOP - ref: Operations Manual.

[ElitePilot]

The company SOP is regulated by the countries CAA when the airlines AOC is issued. So SOP's are based on ANO's/AIP's etc but of course can be more restrictive but not less.

[tmpffisch]

There are no specific regulations regarding how much fuel to carry (only CAR 220 and 234 saying essentially you need to carry sufficient fuel; and then recommendations via CAAP234-1), the same would hold true regarding when to declare an emergency.

[Plazbot]

I would think that a good rule of thumb would be that if you will have to file paper work after the required delay/action, declare Pan Pan, if you have to file death certificates, declare Mayday. The first one will avoid the second. I feel the first is too often overlooked due to commercial pressures to avoid diversion.

[Tankengine]

FFS a mayday would only be called if you were going to RUN OUT of fuel!:ugh:

What do you guys think RESERVE is for?:confused:

Plazbot has it.:ok:


On a slightly different subject: If a lighty crashes after an engine failure over landable terrain then the engine failure did not cause the accident, the "pilot" did.;)

[baswell]

How it's not done: Avianca Flight 52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52)

[Wally Mk2]

Basic airmanship/common sense here.. Mayday for anything that is life threatening Eg fire (doesn't have to be an Eng fire either) & or it's imminent that yr gunna turn yr powered plane into a glider b4 you reach the back stuff (list not exhaustive) , anything else Pann call initially which can be upgraded at any time if the situation deteriorates.


Wmk2

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Enr 1.1 Para 60.3.2 could be a lead in.

If you are holding for longer than expected and a diversion will result in you needing to burn reserve fuel, you must declare an emergency. Will chase the reference.:ok:

[Tankengine]

Yep - but an emergency does not mean Mayday.
In this instance PAN will suffice.:ok:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Correct! :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

For What Its Worth....

MAYDAY = "Grave and Imminent danger to an aircraft or its occupants" requiring immediate assistance......

PAN = Urgency call, requiring some assistance, BUT, not necessarily life threatening, and not necessarily 'RIGHT NOW'....

We all understand 'grave'....

2 bob's worth......

[CoffeeNowFO]

There are clear cut regulations that if you eat into your reserves, it is an emergency and as such should be declared. Maybe if we didn't have arm chair pilots out there referring us to CAAPS and other such nonsense, you might know this. :ugh: As it turns out, MakeItHappenCaptain is correct.

[Slasher]

PAN PAN - We are in deep **** but not much of a risk of being killed dead.

MAYDAY - We are in deep **** with a bloody good risk of being killed dead.

[By George]

SOP of two Airlines I've worked for;

Less than 30 minutes PAN

Less than 15 minutes MAYDAY

[Checkboard]

PAN and MAYDAY in flight both do the same thing. Get you all the ATC help (vectors, priority, landing airport suggestions) you want.

So why the two different calls? With PAN it's just you, the controller and a local fire callout (if fire services are available).

With MAYDAY the controllers will also activate the disaster plan (notify the hospitals, give a heads up to the Ambulance service, get the police to think about road blocks etc etc).

So yes - if priority and a bit of Nav help will solve your problem, it's a PAN.

If you think, despite your best efforts, it may all turn to tears and you and the passengers might need a hospital - it's a MAYDAY.

[aussie027]

I agree with most peoples comments here, the last 4-5 well said.
The US procedures for example seem quite practical in most situations. The 'Min Fuel" call could be implemented here in Aust,

If you declare "Min Fuel" to ATC at any time that alerts them that you cannot tolerate any "undue delay" and that could cause you a problem if it occurs.
It does not get you priority anything just makes them aware (not to dick you around basically, un notified holding, re route you on a longer course etc :E) ie anything not allowed for in your existing flt/fuel plan basically.
(Variable Reserves are not required in FARs if I remember correctly.)
If you get to the point of requiring priority vectoring/handling etc to avoid eating into your reserves then you declare an "emergency for 'Low Fuel' " and you get whatever you need to get you on the ground ASAP. I'm just paraphrasing their regs from memory.

Something no one has yet mentioned is the basic purpose of the fixed reserve which I'm sure all are well aware of.

While you NORMALLY cannot plan to use it and should have it intact upon landing at the destination, once you arrive at the final destination but now for some reason cannot carry out a normal approach and landing in normal time then it is THERE TO BE USED in what is now obviously an "urgent/emergency" situation. ( assuming you only had appch and ldg fuel allowance and fixed reserve left when you arrived)
Egs being say the sudden and totally unforecast appearance of thick fog that immediately reduces CAVOK conditions to below ILS minimums,within a few minutes. (Yes it does happen, happened to me) or the aircraft ahead of you having a landing accident on and blocking the only available runway etc.
It then gives the "last chance" time needed to either maybe divert to a very close nearby airport and land or prepare for and carry out an emergency off field landing as circumstances dictate and the crew decide etc.