Frontier Air

[Biggles266]

I was hoping someone out there who has worked for this operator or has some inside information be able to shed some light on where their bases are and what operations they are running?

I've had a look on their website but only lists Darwin.

[Ozzie Mozzie]

Are you sure you were on the right website?

[Ixixly]

Kinda obvious, but first off it is "Air Frontier" and from what I recall they operate out of Darwin, Gove and Borroloola (Don't quote me on the Borroloser one).

In regards to working for them, expect to be taking for a ride to start, known a few people very recently who were working for free around their office, cleaning aircraft etc... they got a little time with them, mostly ICUS, but one in the end was told "Oops sorry, turns out we don't need you now, but thanks for the free labour!!" and another one it dragged on so long (3 months if I remember correctly) they he got fed up and left.

Unless things have changed in the last month or two, good place to get some hours if you can actually get a job, but expect to be stuffed around.

[Hold_Short]

A mate got screwed over there last year, with the boss hitting him up for 6 months accomodation costs in Gove, after agreeing it was included. The operation, as I know of, is a utter joke! Don't waste your time... even on the website. Hold short

[wawa yaka mynmak]

ok, I'll bite.

345789

You wouldn't happen to be an old operations manager of AF who has just started working for another company on the airport in a similar role? Just remember; your new employers/workmates could be reading this site and it doesn't take much to join the dots.

Air Frontier

If you're a new guy looking for a start in the industry with plenty of hours to go in the logbook, then here is your place. I can't think of too many places that will let guys have a crack at the twins with 500-600 hours TT under their belt with only 3-6 months time out remote. There is a good bunch of guys working for the company at the moment, who all put in the hard yards. Be prepared to put in an effort; those that have are rewarded. All the guys who have recently left have all progressed to turboprops/jets.

Better still, they are willing to give 200 hour guys a run. Get some 210 time under your belt before you head North.

[baron_beeza]

Great to see both sides of the coin.

Some of the other companies getting slagged off here don't get around to speaking up.

[Jack Ranga]

If you're a new guy looking for a start in the industry with plenty of hours to go in the logbook, then here is your place. I can't think of too many places that will let guys have a crack at the twins with 500-600 hours TT under their belt with only 3-6 months time out remote. There is a good bunch of guys working for the company at the moment, who all put in the hard yards. Be prepared to put in an effort; those that have are rewarded. All the guys who have recently left have all progressed to turboprops/jets.



And that's a good reason to treat people like **** is it?

And who would you be wawa?

If I had really deep pockets I could post some of the goings on there..................

You've been warned biggles, but I doubt that'll stop you or anybody else going there!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I can't think of too many places that will let guys have a crack at the twins with 500-600 hours TT under their belt with only 3-6 months time out remote.

Maybe there's a reason for that?:rolleyes:

That being said this is not a comment for or against AF.

[Xcel]

Not a post for or against them...

Just know many a pilot who offered services for no such reward, and only to be bitten. The carrot is held in front for as long as possible there... They will milk you. Mind you reasonable equipment ad opportunities there as is most places in Darwin if your in the right place right time...

I wonder if they are still using full length before turning around in the chieftain and baron, gotta save those brakes...:hmm: geez that used to piss me off... As soon as I heard them in the circuit, it was min speed because I knew it was a 30 min wait till they would clear the freakin runway...:D

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

And while there are pilots willing to slut themselves out (note lack of the word prostitute - at least they get paid for getting screwed) there will always be operators happy to do the screwing, using a plentiful supply of screwees as an excuse to continue the practise. :=

"There's always someone else who'll do it if you don't want to."

You paid $40K to get your CPL.
Have some self-respect. Get paid!
And I do speak from experience.

Kinda like skydiving operators who don't pay pilots.....:rolleyes:

[travelator]

gotta save those brakes..

Ha Ha, forgot about that. Worked for GH many years ago and my "induction" was a two hour lecture in front of a Bonanza listing all the things that he would sack me for!

Interesting to note that almost all the other GA operators from my time are gone yet AF still lives.

(please note this is neither pro nor con AF)

[Biggles266]

Would a new CP changes people's opinions?

[Xcel]

Owner and cp biggles

Interesting to note that almost all the other GA operators from my time are gone yet AF still lives.

Still doesn't say much...

Some bought out, others just shut shop. Couple closed down... Doesn't mean the best remain!

[Corvallis]

Has anything changed. after all these years?

[iPahlot]

Yes... but whether it's for the better or worse is a matter of opinion :}

[210Terry]

Apparently all hires now go through some a380 captain who 'helps run' the company from the east coast. I think he wanted people paying foe 'interview check rides' :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Corvallis]

oh thats good.

[Flying Bear]

No BS, I'm afraid...

Said QF Captain has popped up in many places before with "arrangements" like this. The common theme is that he seems to leave a trail of destruction in his quest to assuage an ego that's bigger than he is! I've learnt this first hand, to my cost.

One of the lads he recently did an "interview ride" on told me that he was advised by said QF Captain to go to Brisbane and get some 200 series training... then come back in six months time and try again. Silly lad actually did that, to no avail...

I hope he doesn't cause grief to AF, the current CP could do such rides himself or if not, identify a pilot internally who has some instructing history to look at the prospectives.

[Ixixly]

Flying Bear, please tell me this isn't PB who ran FTA into the ground in Brisbane?

[iPahlot]

Ixixly, that'd be him!

FB, the current CP does have instructional experience. Top bloke. :ok:

[SpyderPig]

I'm told that the privilege his company on this check ride is a real bargain at only $500:ugh: I pity the newbies trying to get a start in this industry, pack lube :mad:

[Cessna Jockey]

Seems he's staying true to his nickname Gougin'

[Flying Bear]

Ixixly,

You've nailed it...

[Ixixly]

Dear God...some people really need to learn when to give up. Ah well, I never had a great deal of respect for Scare Frontier anyway!

[Zuby22]

I hear prospective applicants have to pay to do that "interview ride in Brisbane" then a check ride at AF.
Is this correct or am i hearing wrongly?
And does anyone know what are the chances of getting a position at end, or do you go onto a waiting list, or what?
And what is AF like to work for?

[Flying Bear]

$500 for a check ride in a 210 in Brisbane with Boughen and his school - to only get CONSIDERED for a job in Darwin??

Oh...my...goodness...

What has the world come to?

[megle2]

Which school, I thought PB closed his school / schools

[Ixixly]

From what I understand he still has a number of Aircraft on the field at YBAF, but I wasn't aware he had any affiliation with any particular schools after FTA went down the gurgler.

[Corvallis]

Just heard that AF is ground due to no CP. they hope to be up and running in 3 weeks. Does anyone know if this is true.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Corvalis,
The Chief Pilot's last day was yesterday and as of Tuesday, they didn't have a candidate to present to CASA.
....so yes, I would say this is true.

[Duck Pilot]

They got a bit of a good wrap on ABC Radio Darwin this morning as a result of Air North’s crew shortages.

Looks like the pilot shortage is starting effect the remote communities. I know of at least 4 other GA companies in the Territory who are possibly going to have to put their aircraft on the ground for the same reasons as mentioned above if they can’t hire suitable Chief Pilot candidates.

It will be interesting to see what the NT government’s reaction is when essential services start to become effected.

[Horatio Leafblower]

C'mon Duck, name names.

[Buswinker]

Well, the most experienced general aviation operator in the territory for a start

[Duck Pilot]

AFAP Pilot jobs pages reveals everything. It’s not hard to find.

[davidclarke]

Just heard that AF is ground due to no CP. they hope to be up and running in 3 weeks. Does anyone know if this is true.

Doesn’t surprise me. The owner is stuck in his ways from 20 years ago. Probably still thinks he can get a CP for 70k a year. Not a single ounce of empathy here. The industry evolves and you have to evolve with it or fade away.

[Corvallis]

I heard he was offering 150k

[Enroute77]

$500 for a check ride in a 210 in Brisbane with Boughen and his school - to only get CONSIDERED for a job in Darwin??
As recently as last month, AF was interviewing pilots then telling them to go Redcliffe and get 5hrs C210 then come back to then spend $550 on a check flight.

Then you spend another $440 to read the Ops manual and start the ‘PPDC’ ICUS Course. In other words, a 4 week induction without pay, before 2 more check flights before they offer you a job. They just don’t tell you this during the initial interview/s.

[DynamicStall]

Looks like the pilot shortage is starting effect the remote communities. I know of at least 4 other GA companies in the Territory who are possibly going to have to put their aircraft on the ground for the same reasons as mentioned above if they can’t hire suitable Chief Pilot candidates.

Whats happening with Chartair? They seem to have been advertising for a CP for quite some time now.

[Corvallis]

A company like chartair should be able to find a chief pilot I would assume. AF on the other hand would struggle because no one would want to put up with the management.

[HILFIGER-TOMMY]

I think everyone has gotten sick of a said ex airforce bloke.

[Tankengine]

This “PB” legend. Wouldn’t happen to be a long streak of nothingness that has graced the halls of Archerfield for many years after pretty much failing at every endeavour, or being a fundamental cause in the failure, of many organisations over the years? Ex CAA, ex RAAF try hard/wanna be with little to contribute other than an ego and delusions of grandeur? I’ve not come across a bigger industry bottom feeder. Has a firm hold on the title of the greatest tool I’ve met in the industry (and I’ve been here a while). AF would be wise to cut ties with the clown if it’s the bloke I’m thinking of. The company culture would struggle and ultimately fail where there’s any involvement from this winner. No good will ever come from any arrangement with him. His ego has been writing cheques that his limited ability simply cannot cash for a long time. I’ve not known anyone in my nearly 30 years in this industry to be so universally disliked.
I don’t know if you have the right person (sounds like it though). PB is not ex CAA or ex RAAF, don’t let the flying suit fool you!

[Ixixly]

Yeah, pretty sure PB isn't Ex-RAAF, I do remember him being involved in the Air Force Cadets though in Brisbane, so possibly he's been misrepresenting himself to everyone.

Couldn't agree more with everyones sentiments, a more universally disliked man I have not heard of in Aviation other than perhaps Alan Joyce.

[outnabout]

Just an observation - I haven’t seen too many GA organisations stay in business after a fatality...

[Bend alot]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=191


https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2000/aair/aair200003949/


not 100% on the second. But there is that missing MAF GA8 up that way too.

[Buswinker]

Scare frontier had a fatal in 2001 as well so if they were the sort of outfit to be put off by that sort of thing they’d be long gone by now!!

I’m not able to post a link but there is a PPRune thread on the matter, “Lake Evella crash findings”. Organisational safety culture was roundly criticised IIRC

[Corvallis]

just heard they have found a cp and back in business now. Hope it goes well for them now.

[Pilotette]

just heard they have found a cp and back in business now. Hope it goes well for them now.

Same here, although I’ve heard they’ve lost a large number of their pilots in the process? Only a few willing to wait it out.

[Archie Bargy]

Reading this forum for a while, but I need to confirm a rumour.

Rumour has it that Air Frontier isn't flying due to having lost their chief pilot. Anything to substantiate the rumour and when they will be flying again? Perhaps Darwin pilots could go and have a look.

[megle2]

I think this has been resolved - try here
www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/477049-frontier-air-3.html

or did the new CP trip up

[Buswinker]

The way I heard it, CP left, another CP was recruited who also left after not much time in the job hence the grounding

The job has gone from AFAP though so maybe they have been successful? That or they’ve decided to call it a day?

[Corvallis]

How long will this cp last.

[Duck Pilot]

Their dedicated clientele were sitting out the front the other day looking pretty keen to go back home.

[Archie Bargy]

Ok, still unconfirmed then.

With two (or now three?) looking for a Chief Pilot how will this end...? 1. Northern Territory Air Services 2. ChartAir 3. Air Frontier?

Acc. AFAP

[Pilotette]

We did a few flights for them while they were grounded but they’re back in the air again now.

[Ixixly]

Surprised those clients don't just stay with you instead of going back to Scare Frontier ey Pilotette? :P

[Pilotette]

Surprised those clients don't just stay with you instead of going back to Scare Frontier ey Pilotette? :P

I think they’re creatures of habit Ixixly 😜
Having said that, our machines are pretty flat out from now until Sept so we probably wouldn’t be able to facilitate them on an ongoing basis...unless we bought more machines...🤔

[Archie Bargy]

they’re back in the air again now.
Awesome. Thanks. NTAS and ChartAir still looking for a Chief? Interestingly both are Low capacity RPT operators, so higher requirements.

[Corvallis]

just heard a rumour that the newly hired CP has been poached by the airlines and will be leaving soon. is this info correct.??

[umop apisdn]

just heard a rumour that the newly hired CP has been poached by the airlines and will be leaving soon. is this info correct.??
Hopefully.

[Pilotette]

Hopefully.

:} Not a fan of them upside down?

[pilotchute]

Stop saying poached. It gives the impression that something illegal has happened. Leaving an employer for a better offer isn't against the law.

[Global Aviator]

That’s a rather ominous looking post... Are they owned aircraft?

Looking at a fleet like that reminds you how Aussie GA has not moved forward in 20 years!

[Flyboy1987]

That’s a rather ominous looking post... Are they owned aircraft?

Looking at a fleet like that reminds you how Aussie GA has not moved forward in 20 years!

Try 30-40 years.

[dragon man]

https://www.pickles.com.au/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/live-012306.pdf

This is misleading to say the least, there is no year on the auction date and further examination reveals this was from two years ago when the previous operator of these aircraft went into administration and Air Frontier purchased the aircraft. If you don’t believe me check out Pickles there is no auction. The post should be removed.

[Ixixly]

Was this the Auction before they headed to Air Frontier?

[Bend alot]

Was this the Auction before they headed to Air Frontier?

Don't know but 2 July 2018 is a Monday not a Tuesday!

Seems a foolish post.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-lji

[muddergoose]

My bad, sorry guys!e post removed as requested.

[Archie Bargy]

just heard a rumour that the newly hired CP has accepted a better offer from the airlines and will be leaving soon.
Anything to substantiate the rumour?

[Buswinker]

Anything to substantiate the rumour?

i have heard this rumour also

i suppose being recruited by an airline is more satisfactory than a CP staying a week and then resigning ostensibly because of how “G” treats his staff, “G” then attempting to explain this away as sacking said CP as incompetent.

But that’s none of my business

[The Wawa Zone]

Funny I used to work for Eire Fronteaur 14 years ago and exactly the same rumours about rumours were on Pprune then and probably word for word. For some reason the little fella just keeps on rockin' ? Why ?
He's ticked the boxes for success in GA, ie., he's an engineer who owns his own aircraft and gets revenue from single engine remote bases that don't cost anything. A lot of others have fallen by the wayside, and I think by now he's figured out how to do it properly-like. His pet hate is pilots who whine about having to get stuff done by themselves while all he ever does is put up the money, the aircraft and the AOC and other trivial crap like that.
Say what you like about him - no one's perfect and some people are just out there - but he's there for as long as he wants.

[dragon man]

Do me a favour!
He hates pilots he has to pay a wage to. Even the ones who don't whine and jusy get things done. And there were plenty of them who passed through the Tee-Pee Hut over the last 20 years.

As for, "putting up the money for an AOC, aircraft and other trivial crap like that", do we include fuel in trivial crap?? It's called running a business you half wit. A companies workforce retention, (not detention), is a direct reflection of the company and how it is run. He survives because he is a bottom feeder. There is successful one in every industry. You even contradict your argument by stating, "gets revenue from single engine remote bases that don't cost anything.".

I tell you what if it’s so simple why don’t you try it. Every one is an arm chair expert, put the money up, deal with CASA, get an AOC, employ staff, he deserves a medal not the crap that’s put up here.

[longrass]

I tell you what if it’s so simple why don’t you try it. Every one is an arm chair expert, put the money up, deal with CASA, get an AOC, employ staff, he deserves a medal not the crap that’s put up here.

Well said and very correct, GH has stuck to his guns and despite what everyone on pprune thinks, he is a self made multi millionaire and a GA success story.

[mikewil]

he is a self made multi millionaire and a GA success story.

The point is you don't have to be an honest businessperson to be a "multi-millionaire and GA success story".

The reason many con-artists end up being "successful" and "millionaires" is because they undercut the honest competition who actually do the right thing and pay an honest wage.

[Bend alot]

If he is so rich, he can pay me the wages he still owes me. Instead of crying poor and whinging that I will sink his company if I force him to pay me.

I never said it was easy, I said it is the cost of doing business.

So everyone on here makes up crap just to dump on poor little Jeff, and none of it has any substance? Your a half wit too. I worked for him, I didn't whinge. I kept mouth shut and did the job. He made his money because of the pilots that slaved for him. The "crap" that is on here, some of it is being polite.

​​​​​

I doubt he is cash rich, no GA company is.

He will have some net worth = to the risk and effort put in buying from the guy that went broke (forget his name) but set up the tee pee.

If you slaved for him then you are part of the problem but can also go to Fair Work and make your claim.

Did you?

[Duck Pilot]

Simple fact is that the company is an entry level GA company, get the experience and move on. Sadly there has been some accidents, however I am of the opinion that most of the accidents have not been directly attributed to the fault of the operator - our flight training standards in Australia have dropped considerably.

Good training, good attitude and a genuine willing to learn particularly the operation pilots are flying up here in the North will give then the knowledge and skill sets to make the correct decisions and advance their careers.

Give the company and the owner some respect as the remote communities certainly need long term dedicated operators such as Air Frontier, hence the other operators cannot absorb all the work.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Simple fact is that the company is an entry level GA company, get the experience and move on.
That's a really **** attitude in Australia in the 21st century. There are entry level operators out there living by the skin of their teeth because they do it right.
Meanwhile, other "Millionaire" GA operators feed their families off the exploitation of passionate young pilots, for as long as the passion lasts.

Surely.... surely we are better than this? Than excusing ONE operator for circumventing the rules that the rest of us observe?

[Eddie Dean]

That's a really **** attitude in Australia in the 21st century. There are entry level operators out there living by the skin of their teeth because they do it right.
Meanwhile, other "Millionaire" GA operators feed their families off the exploitation of passionate young pilots, for as long as the passion lasts.

Surely.... surely we are better than this? Than excusing ONE operator for circumventing the rules that the rest of us observe?I have had the misfortune of contracting to operators that refuse to pay. Currently taking debt recovery action against yet another lying operator, they seem to believe that they don't have to pay probably because they have got away with it for years.

[Duck Pilot]

I agree that its a **** attitude and I certainly don’t agree with it, however sadly that’s reality. Happy to be corrected, however the fact is that it’s pretty rare to find an older experienced pilot who has been with a GA operator anywhere in Australia for a long period of time, say 5 plus years.

Exceptions would probably only be some of the aeromedical operators.

Bigger aeroplanes and more dollars will always win sadly.

[Corvallis]

Maybe his son Richard hunt should run the company. He is only 18 but he is total opposite of his dad. He is quite nice and friendly. But I doubt GH will want his son to be fair to his own son. He probably treats his family like puppets.

[Duck Pilot]

The Shovel,
My post certainly wasn’t intended to be a lecture, just my humble opinion. Am I a fool? Yes probably but who cares, I certainly don’t.
I wish you all the best in whatever you are doing now and in the future.

Enough said on this subject from me.

Be safe.

[Left 270]

Certainly not the only operator to have these sort of claims made against them, I know of a more ‘reputable’ operator not paying properly/at all.. Very frustrating for all the guys trying to put food on the table, not only the employees but the companies out there doing the right thing having to compete with those that aren’t.

[The Wawa Zone]

Shovel,

I knew about a dozen AF pilots and we all got paid properly. Funny thing about bush operations is that if the pay is wrong then the revenue rate per MR hour take a bit of a hit - something called backcharter, and the owners know it.

"do we include fuel in trivial crap??" Yes we do, either out of a pump with a card, or a drum / isotank. Are you saying pilots have to buy their own fuel ?

"A companies workforce retention, (not detention), is a direct reflection of the company and how it is run." Yes, that and trivial stuff like your accumulation rate for single and twin time (tick as applicable). If they don't pay up you've got 7? years to use your log book, MR photocopies/pics, F+D records, trip sheets and dated contemporaneous records of conversation and emails as prima facie evidence for the FWO. Read the FW Act and the Award.
Geoffrey was actually one of the most normal owners I met in GA. The rest were a bunch of various fruitloops, airheads, thieves, pedophiles, and included one actual genuine siliconed up Penthouse Pet.

You even contradict your argument by stating, "gets revenue from single engine remote bases that don't cost anything.". Overhead fixed costs are SFA. Wages, MR time and fuel are direct variable costs and not base expenses.

Geoffrey still thought I was a traitor because I left to do other stuff but hey that's Geoffrey.

[The Wawa Zone]

Shovel 02,

>The Lake Evil accident was a cultural problem that developed over 400km's away from the Bosses sphere of influence. The fact he had no idea of the culture is a reflection of his engagement with his employees.<
That was a supervision problem within the chain of command, and the hard lesson would have been learned.

>He survives because of the work his employees do for him. They Work outside the scope of their employment duties.<
Correct to a certain extent - pilots know what needs doing and do it and thats GA, unless you find a company with it's own loaders, ops staff and aircraft cleaners.
He needs to keep doing this and keep his 15 (by now) children out of the way when they start becoming old enough. Its always worked well like this but if it becomes a 'family' business then things will go wrong.

>And I write this on behalf of the countless pilots Jeff has rubbished behind their back's after they left the company. I listened to him verbally bash expilots. I have heard others tell me about listening to him verbally bash other expilots with false claims. I know first hand of his attempts to sabotage my new job after I left, because my new boss recalled the conversation he had had with Jeff to me.<
Operators in the next level up, from Margaret River to Cape York, have heard about this habit. Get a written ref off the AF CP.

You complain too much (and on other's behalf).

[Corvallis]

There is a rumour going around that their contract with NT govt is suspended.

[Alice Kiwican]

There is a rumour going around that their contract with NT govt is suspended.

Could be because NT Govt is broke?

[Hamley]

Could be because NT Govt is broke?

Something else that was broke

[The Wawa Zone]

There is a rumour going around that their contract with NT govt is suspended.

What contract is that ?

[Corvallis]

The fuel gauges on their chieftain was not working and the pilots were told to fly without them. A pax noticed it and complained. Apparently the customer was top end health services.

[The Wawa Zone]

Yes, that would do it, however it's a rumour like everything else.

[jjhews]

As recently as last month, AF was interviewing pilots then telling them to go Redcliffe and get 5hrs C210 then come back to then spend $550 on a check flight.

Then you spend another $440 to read the Ops manual and start the ‘PPDC’ ICUS Course. In other words, a 4 week induction without pay, before 2 more check flights before they offer you a job. They just don’t tell you this during the initial interview/s.


Does anyone know if this is still happening? Was going to apply but will steer clear if this is the case

[The Wawa Zone]

Does anyone know if this is still happening? Was going to apply but will steer clear if this is the case

Yes, if that is the case then AF will have invented a selection process that will weed out the smart people and leave it with the rest. Paying for an endorsement or approval with your name on it is acceptable, paying for company induction is a rip off.