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OzzieA380
11th Feb 2012, 11:35
I have just heard that the CoT Boeing for EK has confirmed that management have gone back on their promise NOT to hire any DEC's. := Apparently DEC recruitment for the B777 will be formally annouced next week!

Previous DEC recruitment had an approx 75% failure rate and if this rumor is true it will be a complete reversal of the company promise to the pilot group. Looks like the Boeing fleet are in for some bad news! Watch this space!!! :{

Wizofoz
11th Feb 2012, 13:09
WHEN did they promise not to employ DECs? Every time I've heard it discussed by anyone in management it has been made clear they have kept that option open.

Secondly, 75% failure rate? Why would you write such tripe.

It WAS around 20%, which is bloody high, but bear in mind they took non type rated guys previously, which they can't under the current rules.

The fact that they HAVEN'T taken DECs for the last three years hass been because it really is something flight ops would rather not do, but with the amount of training slated for the coming year it would not surprise me in the least.

It's a shame, but it has always been an option and if you joined sooner than five years ago (in which case you'd have had a command by now anyway) that was clear to all.

Wizofoz
11th Feb 2012, 13:26
So, basically, you're saying what I wrote is correct, but you just had to call me a moron anyway?

Could you please specify when and by whom a promise not to employ DECs was made?

What exactley is wrong with you, sit?

Black Pudding
11th Feb 2012, 13:33
The question is, will they take from Qatar ?

falconeasydriver
11th Feb 2012, 13:40
Ho hum, next subject please, their trainset, rules etc etc.

We are commodities here to get the job done, forget loyalty or what you think we deserve.
If you can't or haven't come to terms with those facts, then this aint the place for you, moreover, DEC's are just another way of getting the job done.
IMHO they are a band aid to help cope with the impending airframe deliveries and will have a minimal effect on those who met the current upgrade requirements.
As ever, am a mere lowly FO, so what would I know anyway?

Andy24
11th Feb 2012, 13:41
bear in mind they took non type rated guys previously, which they can't under the current rules.

And from where will Emirates intend to recruit type rated blokes?

Loopy
11th Feb 2012, 14:28
Emirates Careers Centre Media Player (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/flash/mediaplayer/media_player.aspx?video=cpt_michael_crosby_flight_deck_crew&youtube=)

kiwi
11th Feb 2012, 14:32
They'll just alter the rules to suit what they want and need to do. They've done so in the past and they'll do so in the future.
For those that remember, their stated policy last time was to only recruit those Captains that had 3000 hours on aircraft of the type the EK operated, they then almost immediately gave B737 and A320 rated guys the DEC jobs.
At the end of the day, they'll do what they need to, to ensure they are able to operate the aircraft that they have being delivered, anybody who can't understand that fact is the moron.

donpizmeov
11th Feb 2012, 16:08
Can't see this as being a big deal as all FOs in the company now knew that EK hired DECs before they joined. As Falcon said Ho Hum.

The Don

busav8r
11th Feb 2012, 17:28
As things stand they will not take from QR...

:rolleyes: Fart Master, why do you think that way?!
I have a couple friends flying with QR and they have been considering that possibility for quite some time now. They are just waiting for the right time...

galaxy flyer
11th Feb 2012, 17:52
I'm just a Yank, so what do I know? I know AA is in Chapter 11, has a large group of p***ed B777 cappy's that might be looking. DL guys aren't too happy, either and topping off their B777 retirements for a few years could be appealing. And AC is tottering, again. So, funny DEC issue comes up while all this happening. I don't believe in coincidence, but not a conspiracy theorist, either

GF

Not EK, but just my 2 dirams

TangoUniform
11th Feb 2012, 18:11
And why would this even been considered? For the most part, they are running out of "qualified" (by their standards) first officers this summer, some time. At first, "fast tracked" f/o's, that had their contracts altered after arriving, will be evaluated. Then look at f/o's that didn't quite make EK's cut for upgrade, giving them another shot. The only solution, if criteria remains the same for upgrade is either DECs or delay of delivery of airframes (might be a possiblity with 380 wing issues).

helen-damnation
11th Feb 2012, 18:38
The rumour I heard was for DEC TRI/TRE, obviously type rated. There's a bunch of them doing outsourced training for us already, makes them a known entity.

Still a bummer for FO's whose courses would presumably get delayed.

Andy24
11th Feb 2012, 19:08
There's a bunch of them doing outsourced training for us already, makes them a known entity.

Coducting training doesn't mean that the instructors are experienced on type. When my company chose Airbus we were sent to Toulouse for training. Our instructor had just finished his on type training (after Retiring from the military), underwent the SFI course and we were his first gig.

In my opinion Emirates will find it hard to find the experience on type. Given their operation, worldwide international experience should suffice. I think the type rating is the easiest part of the story ( especially if CCQ). Getting to know their way of operation is the demanding part

Saltaire
12th Feb 2012, 00:02
Thought it was strange to see some older grey hair mixed in with the usual younger recruits on the 'tour' the other day.... looks like a done deal. Should be just a supplement to the normal upgrades on the 777. Take a breathe.

The Dominican
12th Feb 2012, 02:48
And this is a surprise because?

Wizofoz
12th Feb 2012, 02:51
Wiz, as a DEC yourself, what would you prefer to see: more DECs of the standard and motivational levels we had the last time around or some of the current crop of FOs being promoted???

Well first up, this may well be another beat up. I'm on leave and so not in touch, but while DEC TREs (I hadn't heard TRIs) have been mentioned, DECs have been openly stated by TCAS as not being what EK want, and yes, "SOME" of the last batch are the reason!

Good chance OzzyA380 has heard that and jumped to conclusions.

Think about it- upgrade a Captain to TRI, you need to replace him on line by upgrading an FO, then hire and train an FO to replace HIM- so three training events.

Still, as I said, they have always kept it as an option.

What would I prefer? Well, I'd prefer the aircraft to be crewed at a reasonable level so the hours aren't ridiculously high. Training is bulging at the seams and if they can find the right kind of DEC, that might help some.

At some point that will mean a perfectley deserving FO having his upgrade delayed, but the short term alternative may well be parked aircraft and the current Captains doing even longer hours.

Be great if they didn't have to, but it might be inevitable.

littlejet
12th Feb 2012, 08:03
This should be a fund raising event. If someone posts "confirmed, from reliable source" rumor and it doesn't happen, than a 100 bucks should be placed in a fund to say, fight the global warming or something...legalize gambling...help the airbus 380 project...

TangoUniform
12th Feb 2012, 13:33
You guys are still missing the point. All deserving f.o.s will be given the chance before DECs. If the upgrade criteria stays the same and in house "fast tracked" f.o.s are evaluated, then there just isn't anymore to upgrade, again given current criteria. And the fiasco of the last crop of DECs that keeps getting mentioned, is just an urban legend. Yes there were some difficulties, but no more than the current upgrade pass/fail rate.

And if it really gets to you, you can be sure what the answer would be.

Andy24
12th Feb 2012, 16:12
It's astounding that a pilot reaches the same conclusions as Management, with absolutely no regard for the careers and lives of our F/O's. Oh wait, you went thru it, so to hell with your colleagues following you. No wonder this profession is in such a state of upheaval.

sittingidly I fully agree with Wiz. Airlines operate in a cutthroat industry. If airlines today base their decisions on the affects their decisions might have on their staff's morale than they are a bunch of idiots. At the end of the day managment's role is to make the airline profitable and not let the planes parked on the ramp.

Guys and dolls appreciate that the world is changing and unfortunately we have to start adapting to the new realities.

fliion
12th Feb 2012, 16:15
Sitty,

Remember - its two tablets, three times a day after you eat.

Pharmacy at clinic is open tomorrow.

Theres a good chap.

f.

MagicCarpet
13th Feb 2012, 05:53
No suitably qualified FOs my #$$. Just eliminate the arbitrary “2500 hrs Emirates operating time and 3 years service” requirement for FOs to upgrade.

EK has a lot of highly experienced FOs with airline command experience. No matter how many EK hours & years of service they may have, it’s still more than any DEC can bring in the door.

Yes, yes, . . . I know. Every FO on property knew the rule when he joined. They also knew EK changes those rules all the time. I’m not knocking DECs. I’m contending EK hasn’t tried hard enough to promote from within.

Jetaim
13th Feb 2012, 06:30
Keep discovering...

oz in dxb
13th Feb 2012, 08:12
Keep discovering...

Won't be soon. After April we'll be saying "hello, tomorrow"

fatbus
13th Feb 2012, 10:59
If there are so many qualified FO's why do so many fail the upgrade? Don't just blame it the training. Know for a fact that it was said, by recruiting and training, that we are going to have problems upgrading these guys when they were hired and was vetoed

falconeasydriver
13th Feb 2012, 11:30
Out of interest, who are "these guys" you are referring too?

If they are failing the upgrade in statistically significant numbers, it begs the question who or whom deemed that these individuals are suitable and capable of passing the upgrade.
It's also worth understanding if there is a specific sylabus in place, and are these individuals devoting their time into understanding the areas that the training department, company, and GCAA deem necessary to become a competent commander?

helen-damnation
13th Feb 2012, 11:33
Andy

The trainers that I refer to are the ones the company would like to have and they are apparently very experienced on type.

MagicCarpet
13th Feb 2012, 12:11
“We can offer our flight crew career progression. If you come here as a first officer, providing you meet all the requirements in terms of ability & experience, then the time to upgrade, the time to captaincy is relatively short. It’s probably the shortest of any airline in the world now.”

Captain Alan Stealey
Emirates Flight Deck Crew Careers recruiting DVD
Copyright 2010

I missed the bit about hiring career FOs who would have trouble upgrading. It’s good to know the recruiting & training departments featured in that DVD actually fought for the principles they stated.

As far as experienced FOs, I specifically mentioned “experienced FOs with airline command experience”. They passed upgrade somewhere and managed not to crash. Seems likely they could do the same at EK.

The funny part is, I fully understand the need for DECs under certain circumstances. In fact I’d like to run out my career as one after leaving here. As it stands today though I just happen to believe that Emirates has a lot of good FOs (including many without previous command experience) who given the chance would make good captains.

TangoUniform
13th Feb 2012, 12:30
MC,
What you say is true. But that is exactly what is taking place. "Suitably qualified" f.o.s are being vetted. Think what you would consider a suitably qualified f.o. with your entire family onboard. Not here, but there are potential problems with "rushing" f.o.s to captain when there hasn't been enough experience. This is a highly charged subject at any airline.

Boeing 777-300ER
13th Feb 2012, 12:46
:As far as experienced FOs, I specifically mentioned “experienced FOs with airline command experience”. They passed upgrade somewhere and managed not to crash. Seems likely they could do the same at EK.

MagicCarpet with all due respect I dont agree with your train of thought. So should one gauge if one makes a good commander by the fact that he/she have never crashed a plane or by the fact that they had passed an upgrade before with their previous airline?

I am not sure whether you are a trainer or not. From your post I presume that you are not (please I do not intend to be sarcastic by this comment) as I am more than certain that you wouldnt have posted such a comment.

After doing training for a number of years both in house and on freelance I can say that the standard I have seen varies from shocking to not having anything to say during the debrief. I would not want my wife and kids flying with such 'captains'.That's how appalling some people out there are. One wonders how they managed to pass the selection process (most probably they were sweet talkers and bull**** their way around) when they joined.

I have seen guys arrive for their upgrade training unprepared and very complacent. Their decisions in the sim are uncomprehending. F/O's about to upgrade spend ALL their cruise time reading newspapers and magazines.

donpizmeov
13th Feb 2012, 12:53
MagicCarpet,

This was all argued in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. FOs with over the EK min requirement were bypassed and DECs were hired. There was no secret made of this. If you did any research you would have easily found this out. Many new joiners read that history and then expressed what a bunch of moaners those writing it were.
So since you joined knowing this, how can you have a problem with it now? Are you a more "special" case than the FOs that were shafted?
Up until recently FOs on the BUS have been bypassed by more junior FOs on the Boeing , you knew about that, did you take a stand to protest that?
Taking it that a wide body command at many flag carrier airlines will take a lifetime, the 8+yrs for a new joiner today would still be considered quick. Its just a pity he will have to work the Ryan air roster while he waits.

I am not saying that I agree with the whole DEC thing. However, nothing has changed since any "present day" any FO joined.

The Don

.

MagicCarpet
13th Feb 2012, 15:39
My comments were about the min hours and time at EK. Management already dropped it from 3000 hrs to 2500 two months ago, so that particular goalpost already has wheels. I simply suggested moving it further, because I believe Emirates has done a good job of hiring many qualified FOs who will make good captains.

No, I don’t think unqualified slacker FOs should be upgraded. Everyone I have flown & trained with at EK has been first rate. Maybe I have been lucky.

Yes, I agree that DECs are needed sometimes. Remember, being a DEC elsewhere is my goal.

Yes, I did protest A330 FOs not being able to fleet transfer to the 777 to upgrade faster. I do it every chance I get. That reminds me, I’m about due for a rant on that issue.

No, I don’t think I’m special. I take my shafting right along with everyone else.

Yes, the quip about not crashing was a joke.

Guess this topic really is a raw nerve. I even pissed off the Don!

Wizofoz
13th Feb 2012, 22:45
Sit,

You might want to honestly think about your posting style and content if you are upset by the likes of flion's post. You are quick on the insult (as you just did TO flion) and just as quick to take offence. It makes combativness on the part of anyone engaging you pretty much inevitable.

I did not defend the DEC policy (though exactley why it would be "not smart", as what you or I think of it isn't going to change a thing) but was counterng OzA380s assertion that EK was "Breaking it's promise" as it never made one,and pointing out that, due to poor planning or whatever, DECs MAY be inevitable (though I am now expecting this to be YET ANOTHER beat-up, as I believe they are simply looking at taking on a few experienced trainers. That would be what, six hysterical threads in the last few years, NONE of which came to fruition?)

BTW, what do you mean it is "now" in the OMA- it always has been in one form or another.

Wizofoz
14th Feb 2012, 02:16
Yet, once again I found one point in your post that was clearly wrong. It HAS NOT always been in the OMA that DEC's could be hired ahead of suitable F/O's. The OMA explicitly stated that only if no suitable F/O's were already working here, would EK resort to hiring DEC's. Yet they hired DEC's in spite of disregarding their own policy.


Yes that's true, it isn't what I thought you meant.

kiwi
14th Feb 2012, 02:20
My goodness Sittingidly, you are an extremely verbose and arrogant fellow!
I, like Flion, believe you need to be on some form of medication as your rants on these forums appear to show some form of paranoia or mental illness.
For your information, EK management have always held and used, when they deemed necessary, the right to employ DECs.
While I might agree that they sometimes do things that are less than agreeable to the pilot group as a whole, your arrogant supposition that they are all stupid and that only you understand the whole situation, clearly paints you as the stupid one, not them!
I for one have had an absolute gutsful of your gibberish on these forums and I shall now use the ignore tool to prevent any more stomach acid generated by your twaddle.
End of my rant. Sorry guys

Dropp the Pilot
14th Feb 2012, 10:10
Been using this as a filter for spittle-flecked hysteria for a year or so now. Highly recommended

donpizmeov
14th Feb 2012, 16:30
Dunno about that Varmint, it didn't stop the present FOs from joining.

the Don

Ps. Whats Ansett?

The Dominican
15th Feb 2012, 08:49
Ps. Whats Ansett?

Your life is better off not knowing anything about that, forget you read it, don't ask again and hope that you don't inadvertently find yourself in a conversation about the subject:}

Boeing 777-300ER
15th Feb 2012, 19:18
Ps. Whats Ansett?

'Let sleeping dogs lie' shall we!!

Boeing 777-300ER
16th Feb 2012, 13:07
Fringhtok

Although you are correct with the time issue, I think there is consensus across the board that it's a matter of when and not if.

Wizofoz
16th Feb 2012, 13:22
Not certain that's true, 777. The last year was pretty horendous in terms of training, and they stuck to not hiring DECs. they really won't unless they feel their is no alternative.

They have certainly looked at DE SFEs, SFIs and FCTIs, and possibly TREs, but line DECs will be resisted if possible.

Netset
16th Feb 2012, 13:46
I won't venture into the debate on whether EK should recruit DEC's. The subject has been exhausted in the past. The bottom line is that if EK needs DEC's they will surely recruit DEC's whether it goes down well or not. EK is a business venture and at the end of the day their agenda is to be profitable and not let planes parked on the Tarmac.

they really won't unless they feel their is no alternative.but line DECs will be resisted if possible

Wizofoz they surely have resisted to date but at what cost? Can they possibly maintain this status quo?

Andy24
17th Feb 2012, 07:59
Wizofoz they surely have resisted to date but at what cost? Can they possibly maintain this status quo?

IMHO, I don't think the status quo can be maintained for much longer, especially on the Bus (not that the 777 guys are getting a better deal)

fatbus
17th Feb 2012, 09:35
When they do DEC 's again and for those that come as DEC's rememeber that you will be at the bottom of the Capt list even when you are in you top bid group. You will remain there for a very long time if not forever.Past DEC's did not realize that and complained and got nowhere.
If there is @ 1000 Capts you will be 1001 there is now a @1000 FO's and each and everyone of those FO's are senior to you and when they upgrade they go above you.

CI999
17th Feb 2012, 10:18
We all forget (EK) is a biz institution, they can do what ever deems necessary to ensure profitability, like wise, we walk away when a better deal becomes available. It's business, some DO NOT like understand that, I left EK to JQ. :ok:

glofish
17th Feb 2012, 10:45
I have had some really good experiences with the DEC's and some really bad experiences

same same with FO's

....The thing I hate the most is when guys start in on trying to convince me the way their old airline did things was better.....very common with the guys who came in from large airlines such as BA, USair, Ansett etc.
same same with FO's

so where's the difference?

@fatbus
It's not the best idea to discourage DEC's to come (bid-priority), it's way more effective to discourage FO's to come.
No more FO's -> birds grounded -> no more DEC's needed.

It's supply and demand.

By the way, it's not very reasonable to bring up the quality issue, as long as we have to read too many of those moronic ASR's from the homebred teams ....
(no HF with Mumbai, full Flaps at 1450ft, and so forth)

fatbus
17th Feb 2012, 14:43
I'm not trying to discourage them to come, just trying to provide some valid info. TC said pilots will not restrict the expansion of this airline so I don't see any AC being parked.It really makes no difference to me. As some have said EK will do what ever it wants, the altest is very junior AB FO's (only 330 not MFF ) going to the 380 because of a hugh manpower problem on the 340.Those FO's will upgrade on the 380 when the time comes, while the MMF AB FO's dont know what they will upgrade on,330/350/380. If I was a 340 FO I would be very pi$$ed off right now.

Andy24
17th Feb 2012, 15:11
When they do DEC 's again and for those that come as DEC's rememeber that you will be at the bottom of the Capt list even when you are in you top bid group. You will remain there for a very long time if not forever.Past DEC's did not realize that and complained and got nowhere.

Glofish, fatbus provided food for thought with a very informative statement which is very true. It wasn't the first time some DEC's were assigned two 9 day trips to down under and NZ in a month (within a 15 day period, basically meaning in a row which just a day or two off in between)

777-200LR
17th Feb 2012, 15:29
In such a tight-lipped industry we operate in its hilarious how "someone has heard"...,"announcement to come next week"...,"DEC's coming"..., etc. Maybe it might happen, maybe not, but have a look at the endless possibilities:

Where are they going to come from? (assuming that the requirements set will be wide body command time) China expats make double what we make, so I really can't see them coming from there. Lots of Euro capts have come recently and failed FO interviews here, so unless they are coming from retired positions in KLM, AF, speedbird, QF... I don't see the pass rate being great at all!

Younger FOs with 2500 hrs will continue to flood in from everywhere with the dreams of flying something big but I'm pretty sure higher hour boys and girls will stop. So in a few years, since we'll have a majority of low hour FOs, the company would have only two choices for upgrade; lowering the requirements again or higher more DECs to cover the lack of 'suitably qualified FOs'.

busav8r
17th Feb 2012, 17:08
Recently I heard that a friend of mine who applied to EK failed to pass the interview. I was really surprised as this guy is a highly qualified Captain and has over 11,000 hours Airbus time in his pocket. He is only 42 yrs old and was a former military fast jet pilot. A truly gentleman in all aspects.

Maybe I am wrong, but this does not make any sense to me. What kind of professionals are EK looking for at the moment? Just good talkers? Someone who already knows by heart the whole screening process?

So why is so many people at EK (supposedly FOs) so concerned about this DEC polemic?

Dropp the Pilot
17th Feb 2012, 18:38
What is a "hugh"?

filejw
17th Feb 2012, 20:12
busav8r...You never know when it comes to an interview. I have had the best applicant on paper come across as so arrogant that there was no way I would give the guy a job.

cerbus
18th Feb 2012, 01:50
DECs will be a bad move if EK does indeed go ahead with them. The last batch was a complete disaster and everyone knows it even Wizo. He says the failure rate was over 20% but I strongly suspect that number is a little low.
Who is going to come to Emirates as a current and qualified widebody international captain? the last time all we got was narrowbody domestic pilots. Yes I know there were a few CP or BA double dippers but very few as a %.
Plus Emirates is currently scrapping the bottom of the barrel of qualifed FOs. If they do hire DECs what is this going to do the FO quality? Who is going to come when it will take that much longer to upgrade at EK keeping in mind that many airlines pay more than EK with less upgrade time?
This DEC policy will be a big mistake.
By the way since I have been here 4 times Emirates said it was not going to hire DECs but very shortly after that they did hire DECs. This is the company you are going to join. Not very honest so get used to it.

BDD
18th Feb 2012, 02:04
Cerbus. "Who is going to come when it will take that much longer to upgrade at EK keeping in mind that many airlines pay more than EK with less upgrade time?"

Where is this airline, or airlines you speak of?

BDD

LHR Rain
18th Feb 2012, 08:19
Keep in mind that there are no good airlines that hire DECs. If you do come to EK you will be treated like ****e and forget about any promises or contracts they may offer. They are made to be broken.
Speaking of broken so will you be. 90 plus hours in the middle of the night and then to top it off you will have to babysit a DEC that took your job. Even longer to upgrade. Are you sure you want Emirates?

The Dominican
18th Feb 2012, 23:39
One thing that I don't get about this whole argument is that several instructors have posted that the pass rate was high for DEC's, I think it was mentioned that around a 20% failure rate? So 8 out of 10 DEC's pass their training and are currently on the line, if that is the case then in comparison to the pass rate of other companies that are hiring DEC's the program at EK has been a success. 80% pass rate is pretty good actually, far from being the disaster some are characterizing it as, so why wouldn't they implement a policy that has been very successful for them in the past.:confused:

kiwi
19th Feb 2012, 03:42
To be fair Oakape, if DEC's had to have as detailed a knowledge of the OMA, that our F/O's have to have, to pass their pre command course interview, I am sure no DEC would have a hope off getting through a command course here.
I personally have no problems with the concept of DEC but believe the same yardstick to measure competence for the position should be used.
Some of the in flight incidents and ASR's raised from a small minority of our DEC's would raise the hair on the back of your neck! I do believe that several were fired as a result of these incidents. I believe that this has been the big reason for the company's reluctance, so far, to proceed down the DEC avenue again. That and the belief they'd screw themselves for recruiting the F/Os that they'd still need.
They aren't stupid, they'll do what they have to, to ensure they have drivers for the airframes they have arriving.

kiwi
19th Feb 2012, 06:35
I agree that it would not be possible to have the required knowledge of the OMA expected of our upgrading F/O's at the start of their Command training but I do believe they should be able to pass a standard upgrade interview before being cleared to line by the end of their training, if we are to have the same yardstick of competency.
There were some, and I know it's not fair to tar all with the same brush, that relied on their F/O's to provide them with the knowledge of proceedures and route knowledge to get through the flight without incident. I think this is where a large chunk of the greivances have occurred in the past.

alwayzinit
19th Feb 2012, 07:48
Sorry guys/gals but this swaying back and forth about DECs has been done to death.

(Yes I know if I dont want to read about go to another thread:ugh:)

But if you have not been included into the "DEC memo" mailing list then they who are simply dont care what you think. So save the blood pressure and stick to things you can actually DO something about.

OK coat, hat, door, cheers and good luck!

bagallito
19th Feb 2012, 09:07
Hi guys

LHR RAIN:

I 'm actually rated A340/A330 TRE/TRI both aircraft, before flying B747 with + 19800 hours (Capt 17000 and 13500 WB Captain) and working for an Asian Airline
I'm willing to join to EK if they decide to open DEC
Do you think LHR RAIN you are going to baby sitting me?
If EK open DEC, for sure I will try to join it, and you will be sitting on my right as my F/O, just that, F/O, and perhaps, if you change your mind and becomes more polite, dear LHR RAIN, perhaps you will be not only my F/O but my partner, my mate, my friend as well. This is what a crew concept is, no what you have in your mind.

take care

Andy24
19th Feb 2012, 09:20
I have a feeling that this thread, which for a change has been till now a rather mature discussion, is drifting into the usual bickering.

Whatever one's experience, we still learn from one another whatever the hours and level of experience. I have flown in every continent however at times I 'relinquish' my command as the F/O sitting next to me might know the area or destination better as he or she might have operated more than me. Does that mean that the F/O is babysitting or that I am not a good Captain? It's all about CRM and using all your resources to the fullest.

At the end of the day the safe outcome of the flight is the most important thing.

bagallito
19th Feb 2012, 09:25
Andy
You are very right.
Wise words coming from the experience!!!
kinds regards

Trader
19th Feb 2012, 10:07
bagalito- yes, so what? You have lots of experience. Does that make you better than the FO with 9000 hours, who came to EK with left seat time?

Experience is a fluid aspect of being a pilot. How much value does each additional 1000 hours bring? How much 'extra' is that worth?

Provided that the FO's have good previous experience (ie. command time) then they should be easily upgradable. This becomes even more true as the upgrade time increases (as it will at EK) to 5,6,7 years and beyond. Take into account their experience on the EK network and there is no need for DEC's.

The need for DEC only arises when there are no suitable FO's OR--and it is a BIG OR--- EK decides that they can save money by hiring DEC's.

But I am sorry - these rants about 'having 19,000 hours' or 'I am a TRE' are absolutely irrelevant!!!!!!!! I am happy that you feel very self important but your argument is rubbish. Given anywhere from 500-2000 hours in command (depends on the individual) the 'quality' of the captain/pilot averages out quickly. We have all flown with lower time guys who fly well and know their stuff and high time guys who are are barely qualified-- and vice versa.

I would also contend, and EK proves this, that some TRE's are excellent and some are truly horrific.

So I am glad that you have 20,000 hours. I am happy that you are a TRI/TRE with lots of WB command. Good for you. But it doesn't make you more qualified than most others. In fact, I have found over the last 20 years or so, that the guys who spout off about their qualifications the most are usually the ones who barely make the grade.

Signed,

a captain with enough experience to know better

fliion
19th Feb 2012, 10:32
Ahh Dear Capt....Bagalito...

Your first post was written with all the arrogance of a true Al Baker disciple...I dont think any of our FO's are worrying about you sitting in the LHS at EK anytime soon.

...after all every one of them has displayed better big pic decision making skills over you... by not choosing to live in the QR penitentiary...

Back to the Doha dream with you skipper...

;>

f.

donpizmeov
19th Feb 2012, 11:19
Very good post trader.

The Don

GoreTex
19th Feb 2012, 11:54
EK is taking DEC's for over 25 years now, everybody knows that and the guys who don't know should have made their homework.

AA, UA, LH all the majors would take DEC's too if they didn't have Unions.

The owner of EK can do whatever he wants to his Airline, even change the laws if necessary, just accept it.

don't shoot the messenger

LHR Rain
19th Feb 2012, 15:42
Bagalito you want to be our mate but jump ahead of the senority list? Do you really think FOs will be your "mate" when you take their command?
If you are as good as you think you are why aren't you flying for BA or AF?
I am a captain and I care a lot about DECs. I don't want the airline wrecked believe it or not. 1 in 5 previous DECs failed. That is a huge number and contrary to what has been published here no other major airline has that kind of percentage.
If EK does go ahead with DECs which they probably will it will be huge mistake. As has been said no good airline in the world employes DECs and we know the kind that will come to EK.

Andy24
19th Feb 2012, 20:13
LHR rain, with all due respect, I don't agree at all with your post.

As you put it, the right way to go about things is either retire from flying once you leave EK or else join another airline as a F/O as it is the right and morale thing to do. If however you join another airline as a DEC, that airline is not a good airline as it recruits DEC's. Does all this makes sense?

Sittingidly, if one has to base the decision on whether to join an airline by reading Pprune then he or she is a moron. People won't join EK because they hire DEC's is far fetched. Look around all the threads regarding pilot recruitment and you read all sorts of bull and rubbish one is amazed how planes are flying.

Pitch Up Authority
19th Feb 2012, 21:54
Why should aviation be any different that others industries. You have a vacancy and someone qualified for the job .... just hire him.

skype
20th Feb 2012, 05:11
Attention: This is the Captain;

just read the news from the great one EDSVP or whatever the "Big Reds" title is (EK employees will know who i mean)

"DEC's on the way"

STOP END MESSAGE :ugh::ugh:

clear to land
20th Feb 2012, 06:30
Welcome to the M/E Jungle-the land of changing goalposts.

Craggenmore
20th Feb 2012, 06:37
11 Feb, 1st post

I have just heard that the CoT Boeing for EK has confirmed that management have gone back on their promise NOT to hire any DEC's. Apparently DEC recruitment for the B777 will be formally annouced next week!

As it's been over a week, can anyone point me to the link containing the announcement?

SubsonicMortal
20th Feb 2012, 07:11
Check your company mail. You'll find the answer there.

donpizmeov
20th Feb 2012, 07:28
Dec and right to left on the 380 announced today. But a promise no FO will be held back. Haven't heard that since last time.

FL XXX
20th Feb 2012, 07:47
Dear Bagalitto

CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR ARROGANCE!! This clearly demonstrates a serious lack of common sense and that you have lost the plot! BAD CRM!! You are a typical individual who goes on a power trip in the left seat. Terrible authority gradient on the flight deck. In my opinion you shouldn't be in the left seat to begin with! Do yourself a favor and don't even consider applying to any DEC job out there, since this is an accident waiting to happen. I have flown with individuals like yourself and wouldn't wish anyone having to go through such an experience. A serious threat to flight safety. Or better please think about this with some good common sense and change your attitude! Everybody who displays an attitude like yourself who thinks that he/she is invincible or is better then someone else and doesn't even recognize his own bad attitude shouldn't be flying! Extremely unprofessional and unacceptable. For your own sake take this message with you while it is still only on pprune and change your attitude for the sake of flight safety! GOOD LUCK!

wavesurf
20th Feb 2012, 08:17
Hey,

relax... Maybe I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will give now a very good bonus and pay raise! Otherwise I think a lot of F/O's will be dissapointed, demotivated and you never, know leave the company.

Ok, maybe I'm dreaming but let's stay positive guys!!!!

monsoon.pilot
20th Feb 2012, 08:44
I'm surprised nobody commented yet on the new DEC requirements.
7000 hours total time ,no previous WB experience required! Most of the FOs joined with this kind of total time and previous command. I know I did...
Outrageous!!

Saltaire
20th Feb 2012, 09:48
Seaman's logic looks reasonable to me...I like it.

Guys, as you can see once again, the goal posts are on wheels. Don't get too wrapped up if this is perceived as adversely affecting you. It'll change once again....380 right to left looks interesting and good for those on that path, however, 2500 hours will take more like 3 years in the right seat. Nice lifestyle for sure though...

The good news is that there are enough spots for just about anyone who wants the left seat in the next few years. It does remind me of a certain "bubble" that happened a few years ago in DXB. Not quite sure how this exponential growth will pan out.

Where are the DEC's going? 777 only?

falconeasydriver
20th Feb 2012, 09:52
Said it before and will say it again, "it's their trainset boys" get over it.

Looking at these new DEC requirements I can predict that Wizz Air, Easyjet, and Ryanair will be short of skippers this summer, and I suspect these are the very guys our chaps are targeting, along with a few select Qatar and Teahid drivers.

atiuta
20th Feb 2012, 11:33
Magic carpet and monsoon pilot, read Traders last post.

No matter how hard you try to make your hours look better than a DEC's, the fact is the company has always had a history of hiring DEC's and you knew it.

The hour requirement is used as a benchmark to start the command/upgrade/recruitment process for DEC's and FO's alike. It is their train set and they will set their benchmark themselves, or do you think it should be put out to a democratic vote?

While I'm here....this BS about an 80% pass rate for DEC's is another misconstrued statistic. The figure would be the same for new FO's, but the company has the ability to provide a greater level of training and to accept a lower overall competency level. DEC's can't be afforded that luxury so an 80% pass rate is not bad on an industry scale. Anyone care to name the pass rate for FO's currently upgrading?

One of the reasons DEC's are required is a percentage of the current FO's won't meet the command criteria in time (being ex RJ's) and despite Monsoon's opinion, his stated qualifications do not make him an instant four bar success.

Get over it guys, FO's that qualify and meet the standard will get a command.

MagicCarpet
20th Feb 2012, 11:44
......0 hours Emirates operating time required for DEC
2,500 hours Emirates operating time for Emirates FO with identical experience

donpizmeov
20th Feb 2012, 15:03
Two groups got shafted today by this FCI.
1. Those FOs forced onto the 380 because they had the required experience when others didn't. As they will be watching their less experienced peers upgrade on the minibus as they wait to do the 2500hrs on the 380.
2. Junior Capts on the mini bus, as they watch a new joiner FO do 1yr on the mini bus before going to the 380 and upgrading on it before the minibus capt does his 4 yrs of command requirement.

If they could just decide on one upgrade/transfer policy and stick with it rather than waiting for the knee to jerk again!!! :ugh:

The Don

Gypsy
20th Feb 2012, 15:58
So when EK F/O's get into the LHS and then at some point years later, leave EK for other pastures, do they still strongly oppose DEC's ....?

I think not - most will suddenly think DEC's are OK and take a DEC job themselves elsewhere.

Get over it

PammyAnderson
20th Feb 2012, 16:12
So go on strike then. (or go sick on the same day) Seriously if ALL pilots in the group said we wont fly with that policy then watch how quick it will all change. Yes i know pilots would never stick together or do that, but just imagine....

atiuta
20th Feb 2012, 16:32
No lectures required about unity here Pam. Plenty of pilots in EK that have exercised their legal rights of representation in the past. For whatever reason, they then chose to leave that protection behind and become an expatriate contract pilot.

That's all we are and I do not require or expect anything from my colleagues other than a professional work ethic.

On the subject of FR pilots (or any breed for that matter) and making sense of it all. Wouldn't it be ironic if an FR DEC were to join and fly with an ex FR pilot that is now an EK FO, but had once been a DEC with FR with the first individual as the FO!

Make sense of that and try to find some sympathy.

Craggenmore
20th Feb 2012, 16:43
On the subject of FR pilots (or any breed for that matter) and making sense of it all. Wouldn't it be ironic if an FR DEC were to join and fly with an ex FR pilot that is now an EK FO, but had once been a DEC with FR with the first individual as the FO!

....especially if you didn't like them first time around :}

km5
20th Feb 2012, 17:27
Does Emirates intend to recruit direct entry Captains?

We currently have many First Officers who are ready to upgrade to Captain, and therefore it is not a priority for the immediate future.

fliion
20th Feb 2012, 19:21
Ladies & Gents,

Just to clarify I'm confused....From my reading...you could have a 5-6 year A380 FO through no fault of his/her own who would have say transferred to the 38o at year 3.5 (coz there were no upgrades at their seniority then) who has done the first 3.5 years doing 330 India night turns mainly, now has to have 2500 in the RHS of said bus (new FCI) to transfer to LHS 380 for command.(say 2.5 -3 yrs total 380 time = 6.5 yrs total)...

...yet (wait for it!)...a euro LCC PIC with 7k total time & 2.5k cmnd time can technically come in and interview for Capt...and not even have to know the fcukn OMA....And get a 7 yr start on Capt pay compared to said FO...

What an absolute disgrace....

Cue DSO...car convo...

45ish 3 stripe to 32ish 4stripe:

" mornin!... How long you hear skip?"

" 6.5 weeks!...you?"

"6.5 years on widebody/doubledecker, 3rd world intl flying @ 60% of your pay skippy"

Pathetic.

f.

inciter
20th Feb 2012, 19:38
If this is true, Emirates has gone from the top of the list (in the region) right down to the bottom of the pile next to their cousins down the road.

I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible.

“We do not need DECs because we have plenty of experienced FOs and the only way in is as FO at the bottom of the list”.

filejw
20th Feb 2012, 20:09
inciter , Indignation noted but I remember them taking DEC in the 727 in the late 80's...not going to change...

EK_Bus Driver
20th Feb 2012, 21:17
I once had a TRE tell me that the biggest mistake EK has made in this whole debacle, is that they stopped hiring DEC's. :eek:

He was f$&@"g lucky I have a good sense of humour!! :yuk:

I personally have no issue with the Individual, just the "Policy". Especially when we have some very capable guys in the RHS!! EK should only be going down this path when there are no "Upgradeable" F/O's. And IF and only IF DEC's are required they should be type rated with experience commensurate with the same field of operations, not some Plonker who's got a million sectors crossing the "Chanel" and never used HF!! :mad:

What an Utterly Disgraceful Company! :=:*

guidavide
20th Feb 2012, 21:42
Inciter wrote:

"I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible."

This absolutely ridicolous, I am speechless this is supposed to come from a professional pilot.

If this is the way you consider any company TREs than or that training department is utterly ridicolous or you are missing a few points about this profession. At this moment I might ponder towards the second option...

So much bullsxit about CRM and the hours count/don't count and than sentences like this... Training/checking should be above personal battles, integrity should be the norm otherwise whatever remains of this profession is dead.

If you're working for EK no wonder they keep looking for fresh blood again and again!

HPIC
20th Feb 2012, 23:17
I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible.

If you really feel this way, you are a sorry excuse for a "professional" pilot.

You think DECs should be failed just so TREs can prove a point regarding their(or, more to the point, YOUR) opinion?

Pathetic.

CAYNINE
20th Feb 2012, 23:38
Wind the clock back to 2004.... we all saw it happen then, the reality is guys we have no say what the company does.... because it's not our company. we choose to come here and unfortunately things change that disadvantage us, but, so this is not going to change.

I feel for many of the very good F\O's that we have, it is indeed hard to swallow a bitter pill but hang in there guys, things change rapidly in EK.

We at least are still expanding there is still opportunities for advancement. I for one would sure as sh*t hate to be waiting for a command in BA or Qantas.

Trader
21st Feb 2012, 01:27
...and perhaps...hopefully....just maybe......there has been some forethought......and the FCI is meant to head off any future issues.....and that there is truth that no qualified FO's will be bypassed.....

6100
21st Feb 2012, 01:35
Does the accelerated command policy still exist? and if so, has it been used recently to try and avoid this situation?

Popgun
21st Feb 2012, 02:02
Even if it takes an FO 10 years to wide-body command at EK...that is still extremely fast by most yardsticks.

DECs are always a testy subject...but I think the 'doom and gloom' for FOs and new joiners needs to be kept in perspective.

A few DECs is not going to stop guys chasing a WB command in the sandpit. It will still be MUCH quicker, on better money and better conditions than if they aspired to that goal in their country of origin.

PG

PS. While it has been said before, it bears repeating: It its someone else's train set. Pilots stepping out from their (usually) western, democratised home countries know the risks of working in an environment which lacks any significant employee rights and industrial protections. Risk versus reward should always be weighed carefully.

Andy24
21st Feb 2012, 04:26
"I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible."

Wow. Sorry for saying this but really how low can you go? I am surprised you passed the selection process.

Just keep in mind that a TRE is recommended by the airline to the civil authority.

break_break
21st Feb 2012, 04:40
Wind the clock back to 2004.... we all saw it happen then, the reality is guys we have no say what the company does.... because it's not our company. we choose to come here and unfortunately things change that disadvantage us, but, so this is not going to change.

I feel for many of the very good F\O's that we have, it is indeed hard to swallow a bitter pill but hang in there guys, things change rapidly in EK.

We at least are still expanding there is still opportunities for advancement. I for one would sure as sh*t hate to be waiting for a command in BA or Qantas.

Feel EXACTLY the same, CAYNINE.

We can say whatever we want, the company does whatever it wants.

CAVnotOK
21st Feb 2012, 05:06
I wonder how many Guys have recently applied for F/O will now be told by EK that they actually meet the min requirement for Capt??

Just the same as ALOT of the current EK F/Os do!

It's going to get messy!!

Cav.

inciter
21st Feb 2012, 05:22
If Emirates had no experienced FOs then DECs would be justified but that is not the case.

They are only doing it because they can and because it is the cheapest option.

Funny thing is that even if they offered 20% less most of you would still be licking your chops and jumping at the bid to come over and screw 1000 plus FOs.

Naturally, six months later you would be bitching and moaning about your T&Cs.
YOU are the reason Aviation today pays less than it did 20 years ago.

You want to do the right thing, there is a job for you as FO at the bottom of the list because Emirates DOES NOT NEED your left seat experience, you just happen to come cheap.

Don’t go talking to me about integrity and professionalism. Even though more than qualified for a DEC with Emirates I NEVER have and would NEVER apply.

Someone mentioned earlier, why should aviation be different to any other industry.
Because it was. You started as FO, did your time, earned your colleagues‘ respect and got your promotion. The method minimised ass kissing and the back stabbing that exists in other industries but that is no more, every man for himself these days.

Sky Hooker
21st Feb 2012, 05:45
House is on fire.....wonder where this thread will be heading.
Guys wake up and smell the coffee this is the middle east and you get what u signed on the dotted line. Rest is a bonus take it or leave it.

This is not the wild wild west but money talks and bull.... Walks!

desertcamel
21st Feb 2012, 06:32
I feel you guys on the RHS...sorry if this will affect your promotions, but to be honest, there's nothing much we can do. Most of us been here long enough to understand that the only constant thing in EK are changes. We all expected at some point that upgrade on the whale will happen, and so it will ,based on this FCI. But if you analyze carefully on how it was written...2500 hrs on the RHS 380 before a Command upgrade, and thats 4 to 5 yrs.to build. And by that same time, most of us on the Bus in particular,If not ALL, have already been transferred to "who knows where" 777 or the 380. Even the most senior FO on the 380 does not have a 2500hrs on type at present. And im saying this based on their current phase out plan. So, one can just imagine the number of upgrades coming in the next year or two.
Huge number of Upgrade interviews are still ongoing, but unfortunately the rates of failures and repeat interviews were quite big. And this affects movements for the rest of you, since the the repeats will be called again ahead of others ,due to their seniority. All EK F/Os are qualified to be Captains, and thats the reason they hired us in the first place...but, that seizes once we fail a PPC, ALC, Upgrade interview, etc etc.
So, what to do ? IMHO,do your stuff and study..And try your best to pass the first take. Because , this is one Reason you give to the Company to resource on DEC's.

to my colleagues on the RHS, i hope you'll all get your Upgrades. For now, let's enjoy life. its a waiting game....lets see

My2C
DC

Alconguin Crusader
21st Feb 2012, 17:40
Why is Emirates wanting to hire DECs? Do they need bodies or just trying to save training cycles?
I think they have plenty of not only qualifed FOs but also suitable FOs under the new lower requirements.
This is just another screw job by Emirates and any new joiner should think very carefully about joining this circus. It is a screw job plain and simple.

Immigrant
21st Feb 2012, 17:51
and any new joiner should think very carefully about joining this circus.

Who have to think very carefully?? New joiners with 2500TT joining on 330 or 777 with age around 25 and will get a LHS in JUST 7-10 Years? :*
Com on guys....looks like NG of pilots really.. really..get spoiled... :ugh:

doniedarko
21st Feb 2012, 18:12
Is it true, are the Emirates taking DEC's now ???.

km5
21st Feb 2012, 18:17
There is a whole thread on the ME part of PPRnNe - its true

km5
21st Feb 2012, 18:20
Well its still not up on the main site...

From Emirates web site ...


Does Emirates intend to recruit direct entry Captains?
We currently have many First Officers who are ready to upgrade to Captain, and therefore it is not a priority for the immediate future.

doniedarko
21st Feb 2012, 18:42
So there is ...Thanks:ok:

poitiers
21st Feb 2012, 19:15
hi there,
how much can a captain B777 make on EK these days? how many hrs a year?
tks

atiuta
21st Feb 2012, 19:19
EK Captains make $20,000/mth and fly 750 hrs a year.

Wizofoz
22nd Feb 2012, 02:45
EK Captains make $20,000/mth and fly 750 hrs a year.

I hope you were being sarcastic here!!!

Gypsy
22nd Feb 2012, 05:32
[QUOTE]"I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible."/QUOTE]

Inciter - the snag with your rather juvenile wish is that unless staying until retirement, the TRE's will themselves leave EK one day and I doubt they will be applying for F/O jobs elsewhere. You yourself may leave EK one day as a Captain and again I doubt you will then still have the same principle against DEC's

Get over it...!

Dropp the Pilot
22nd Feb 2012, 06:00
Do we have to do this again?

This Emirates captain here made $27000 net last month and that only includes the things which came to him in cash: salary, appointment pay, housing allowance, flight pay, ERP, and provident A contribution. No productivity pay or profit share figures in that amount.

It does not include those things which came to him in kind, such as life insurance, loss of license insurance, and school fees for the kids. All these would need to be replaced and paid for if this captain worked anywhere else. Do the math, but depending on where you might like to live outside EK you'll need several thousand dollars more to cover those.

Patty747400
22nd Feb 2012, 06:15
Guys

Can't you see the reason for DEC? It is not to deliberately "screw" anyone. It is simple mathematics. If you only hire FOs you reduce the number of possible applicants by at least 50%.
They will continue to upgrade within as fast as they can but with the number of aircraft coming they must find more pilots to fill these seats.
Will they lose FO applicants? Hardly, it is still the fastest way to a wide body command and the applicants know this.

littlejet
22nd Feb 2012, 08:36
Most of the DEC positions around the world are at the national majors in Far East (eg KAL, CAL, EVA, SIA, CCA, CSN, HVN) where your contract as an expat is time limited until their own pilots are ready to take over and you will be sent home. Also in the recession your services will no longer be required. Or they are startups which need pilots of any qualifications to jump start their ops with as little investment as possible. Or they are airlines with high attrition rate so they need replacements fast.
EK is in neither category. Yes some of the pilots will leave EK to be DEC somewhere but they will sacrifice the permanent contract and stable airline seniority and benefits, however most of them are actually planning to stay longer...
It is a good thing that there are so many upgrade slots available in the future and hopefully there will be enough for everyone qualified but in this volatile economy and politics one upgrade training slot might be as big as a whole career.
Although a bit emotional Inciter sends a clear message to potential DEC joiners.
Work very hard and a bit more to prove that you are more qualified with your experience than your FO who is in the company for few years already and knows the airplane and the operations inside out, and is studying really hard to pass all the exams and checks planned in the OMD for his upgrade. Passing the initial screening is just a start.

Dualinput
22nd Feb 2012, 15:08
Requirements for the Position of Captain A330/B777

- A minimum of 7000 hours total flying time (only front seat time on turboprop and/or turbojet aircraft can be counted).
- A minimum of 3000 hours command time on multi-crew, multi-engine commercial jet aircraft with an MTOW of 50 tonnes or more.
Note: We do not accept simulator time for flying hours calculation.
- Must hold a valid ICAO ATPL with an unrestricted class one medical certificate
- English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension); must be at least equal to ICAO English level 5.
- Must have flown as an aircraft commander on a jet meeting the above mentioned criteria, within 12 months of joining
- Preference will be given to type rated Airbus A330/340, B777 or other relevant wide body commanders and Instructors/Examiners

falcon10
22nd Feb 2012, 15:45
This Emirates captain here made $27000 net last month and that only includes the things which came to him in cash: salary, appointment pay, housing allowance, flight pay, ERP, and provident A contribution. No productivity pay or profit share figures in that amount.


Is there a pay scale for the First Officers or is it what is published online every year with no yearly increases? That said what is the average and max pay one can expect as an FO for the first 3-5 years?

atpcliff
22nd Feb 2012, 15:52
The DEC situation IS interesting. In the US, DAL/AA/UAL/Alaska/Hawaiian/USAirways...none of them take DECs, unless you are hired as a management pilot.

cliff
KGRB

Sky Goose
22nd Feb 2012, 16:42
Still nothing on their recruitment website, only FO positions.
Where are you boys getting this info ?

fatbus
22nd Feb 2012, 17:21
Who ever posted $27000 is dreaming as that is @ 100K AED, that might of been the month that the profit share was included.
The web site does not reflect the current situation, DEC are coming ,soon, but not in the hugh #'s as you might think. Put it this way- EK will have problems getting all that they would like because the pass rate will not be great, that is what the stats say. A word of advice for those DEC's that do come - dont slack off once you are on line, you will be checked for the first 9 months . including no notice check rides with standards,fail once - pressure is on , fail a 2nd time - gone packing

atpcliff
22nd Feb 2012, 17:48
Where are you boys getting this info ?
I'm guessing their company email???

Tommy Tilt
22nd Feb 2012, 20:08
inciter:

I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible.

I cannot imagine what toilet-bowl abortion you evolved from to make such an outrageous statement. No Emirates TRE would ever consider acting as shamefully as you suggest.

You have proficiently succeeded in ensuring the opposite effect of your pathetic desire. No doubt, ICAO and the UAE GCAA will now be aware that the integrity of the Emirates Airline may be compromised due to the possibility of manipulated DEC pilot selection/training in order to placate disgruntled First Officers. These entities will now more closely monitor Emirates pilot training. Ironically, any sub-standard First Officers will be more exposed.

On the very, very, slight chance that any renegade Emirates TRE may subscribe to your retaliatory methods, I suggest that any DEC who fails selection or training and feels they may have been discriminated against in any Emirates simulator, submits a detailed report to the respective civil aviation legislative authorities.

In the USA the Pilot Record Improvement Act 1996 (PRIA) is in place. The Act requires all airlines to provide training records, including simulator reports, of any former employee, before that person can be recruited by a US airline. In anticipation of any replies to this post that the requirement to produce records only applies to US airlines, it does not. Emirates flies to the USA, therefore, FAA inspectors may request training records from Emirates and take the appropriate action should Emirates not comply and/or the records are determined to be false.

Inciter, I suggest you pursue your cause with Emirates management rather than hoping that TRE's act illegally on your behalf.

Wizofoz
22nd Feb 2012, 20:26
Who ever posted $27000 is dreaming as that is @ 100K AED, that might of been the month that the profit share was included.


That was my reaction, FB, but then I did the math.

A TRE with on 10th increment, doing 104 hrs and 17 training duties (which they are!!) recieving housing and ERP on, say AUDs does indeed pull 90+k DHS.

$27k would still be a helluva good month, but not inconcievable.

ScottyDawg
22nd Feb 2012, 21:00
To Anyone Who's Not A Space Cadet :suspect:...

TOMMY TILT'S - Post is one of the best in recent memory...:D

Well done Sir... Respect for stating the obvious.. and protecting the integrity of the training department...
The embracement of common decency and integrity that you choose to mention and infer... simply seems to be missing from so many Flight Decks around the globe at present...

Nice to see a person of substance make a suite of comments worth reading for once..!!

If you and your ilk are the individuals responsible for assessing prospective candidates (right or left seat)... Then they are in good hands..!

Well Done...

Regards
Scotty D:p

Fuel Dump
22nd Feb 2012, 22:16
Funny...

This thread just proves that pilots are all the same, no matter if on Emirates or Ryanair or Air China. Everybody just looks to your own career. Experienced F/O's hate DEC's, Long Haul guys "look down" to Low Cost ones. And many don't realize that YOU can be the one looking for a better job in the very near future.

Never say never... And don't forget that you ARE NOT the eagle that you think you are!

Fly safe.

Patty747400
23rd Feb 2012, 00:21
"- A minimum of 7000 hours total flying time (only front seat time on turboprop and/or turbojet aircraft can be counted).
- A minimum of 3000 hours command time on multi-crew, multi-engine commercial jet aircraft with an MTOW of 50 tonnes or more."

Are there many FOs in EK that have these hours? Just asking, not trying to put gasoline on the fire...

GoAround_Flaps20
23rd Feb 2012, 01:25
Fuel Dump...you are the man! Let me sign below your words! Great!

Safe flights!

GoAround_Flaps20

CAYNINE
23rd Feb 2012, 02:22
Tommy tilt and Scotty Dog,

Well said I fully agree

Popgun
23rd Feb 2012, 07:38
Fuel Dump nailed it!

PG

nolimitholdem
23rd Feb 2012, 07:59
HAHAH I guess a bunch of Ryanair captains agree with you wholeheartedly Fuel Dump, fancy that!

As far as screening DEC's, if it's the same level as EK took last round, it won't exactly be a chore to justify failing them. If anything the selection TRE's must have been bending over backwards to get them in, not keep them out.

Seat99k
23rd Feb 2012, 09:06
As a former DEC I do not have a problem with EK hiring them, what I think is wrong is lowering the criteria from 10k 3k on an EK type. Under the previous criteria ie last weeks rules, they would have been experienced on type and most likely experienced in similar flying to EK ops. These type of pilots would be a useful addition to the operation.

Under this weeks rules that is not necessary going to be the case.

What is also frustrating is a lot of people already here meet the criteria for DEC now but are frozen waiting for 3 years.

gottofly
23rd Feb 2012, 10:22
I cannot find anything on their website either.If and when it does,I guess they will do so only because the airline needs DEC to keep up with the expansion plans and also give their F/O's a fair chance...i.e.. they may lower the requirements for their F/O's too.And yes,new guys would be at the bottom of the seniority list.Good luck to all the upgrading F/O's.
Can anyone jot down new requirements about which we are discussing here?

Patty747400
23rd Feb 2012, 12:39
"What is also frustrating is a lot of people already here meet the criteria for DEC now but are frozen waiting for 3 years."

So a lot of guys with 5-6 years as captains on the 737 or 320 has joined EK as FOs? Where did they come from? Wonder why didn't they apply to SQ Cargo as DEC on the 744 instead since they met the requirements and we have hired a lot of guys the last couple of years.

springbok449
23rd Feb 2012, 14:09
Patty,

Probably because EK offer better long term prospects than SQ cargo especially after the way the expats were treated in mainline...

And for your info yes there are quite a few people within the company who meet the requirements except the 3 years in the company...

Rgds.

MagicCarpet
23rd Feb 2012, 14:50
Still nothing on their recruitment website, only FO positions.
Where are you boys getting this info ?

Go to Welcome to Emirates Group Careers Centre - Work for Emirates (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com) and click on Pilot Jobs. Click Apply Now. Register. On Page 02 of the application under “Position Applied For” the pulldown choices are CAPTAIN, FIRST OFFICER and SFI/SFE. Pick CAPTAIN. Below that it will say “If there are no opportunities for Direct Entry Captains, do you wish to be considered for a position as First Officer?” Select Yes or No. Bob’s your uncle.

Patty747400
23rd Feb 2012, 23:23
"Probably because EK offer better long term prospects than SQ cargo"

Exactly. Even if you have to wait four years for your wide body command. Nice to hear someone admit that instead of the usual bitching about being "shafted" "screwed" etc etc


"And for your info yes there are quite a few people within the company who meet the requirements except the 3 years in the company..."

Well, then the company should of course give these guys an upgrade before resorting to DECs. But, would the other FOs prefer that THEY jump the queue rather than DECs doing it?

Alconguin Crusader
24th Feb 2012, 08:03
DECs were a disaster last time around with supposedly high time pilots. What kind of pilots are we going to get with 3000 PIC and just narrow body domestic pilots?
As has been said before on the website there is no need for these DECs whatsoever. That being said when these "qualified" DECs come into Emirates they will not be well received to say the least. That is just human nature.
Pilots are their own worst enemies and this is just another example of the downward spiral of the industry. We only have ourselves to blame and the DECs in particular.
Caveat emptor

The Dominican
24th Feb 2012, 08:43
You guys keep making the argument that it was a disaster the last time they took DEC's, sorry but the numbers just don't back that claim, 20% failure rate is actually very good compared with all other companies that hire DEC's what do you think is the pass rate at KAL? Asiana? Air Japan? Sin Cargo? And about how they will be welcomed, It is the same story at every DEC job available out there, they will thrive and earn the respect of their colleagues just like you will if and when you move on from EK, because as an expat there is no permanency in ANY job, at some point you will want to have some variety in your life and unless you go back to UCAL at the bottom of the pile earning next to nothing, you will also go for a DEC position. The upgrade program will continue guys, you don't seem to realize that they will need DEC due to the growth, you will get your turn, is not either or, it's both.

vfenext
24th Feb 2012, 09:01
Failure rate was not 20% more like 70% for DEC at interview. The sim profile is where most fall. Don't know where the 20% came from but its total rubbish.

Wizofoz
24th Feb 2012, 09:23
Failure rate was not 20% more like 70% for DEC at interview. The sim profile is where most fall. Don't know where the 20% came from but its total rubbish.

That was refering to the failure rate on course for those that got through selection.

Trader
24th Feb 2012, 09:30
Guessing that if they do hire DEC's it will be a small number to cover a short term shortage in training needs. They will pick and choose those with WB command and that it is. I highly doubt we will see any 737 captains joining us a DEC's.

If you want proof look at the past - how many DEC's do we see and certainly no large grouping of them on the seniority list.

Alcatraz69
24th Feb 2012, 19:11
DEC will be a short term solution but as sad as it looks , it the way to cover the numbers at EK.

fade to grey
24th Feb 2012, 20:20
Christ, I can't wait to apply, it'll be fun working with all these people.

DEC may put back some promotion prospects but, if that what the company wants....

If you think about it, aviation is one of the few professions where you are expected to start at the bottom again when you change company.

Would a surgeon moving hospitals expect to be a junior again ?

Swan Man
25th Feb 2012, 10:40
A surgeon or any other professional does not base his pay, vacation and bidding based on senority. Pilots do and hence a senority list.
The reason the industry sucks besides us pilots being complete tossers is airlines don't have to pay market rates or industry standard when they can just bring a DEC in from a ****e company (jumping the senority list) and pay him less than Market Rates.
Good airlines' pilots have figured this out and ban DECs for very good reasons. Besides the ethical issues they suppress wages.
Having a look back at EK one will also notice the company does not save any training costs if they have that much of a failure rate and require additional training.
Does anyone know if TCAS buddies are looking for a job? We all know that EK does not need any DECs so one has to wonder why EK is bringing in the DECs. TCAS would know.

Runcorn Bridge
25th Feb 2012, 16:29
And not so at most other airlines around the world. The bottom line is costs. Airlines are around to make money for owners and shareholders. It's the grim reality. I'm not saying I agree with it.

I can see what is being said about DEC's and on the whole I agree. If and when I move on from my current LHS role for the last 8 yrs, I could not afford to move back to a RHS job, nor would I take the risk. If there was a DEC Job available with another carrier, I would take it. Just being honest.

I know I am not alone when I say this.

LOC STAR
25th Feb 2012, 16:39
Hi Gentelmen, dose anyone knows when EK going to
Open the door for DEC.?

Waiting :ok:

Mrs Mangels
25th Feb 2012, 20:05
I think the dose is take two Panadols and call me in the morning.
And people wonder why the pass rate is 30%:ugh:

Praise Jebus
25th Feb 2012, 20:25
EK may or may not have enough qualified FOs to upgrade, I don't have the numbers. What EK doesn't have is enough instructors... Despite raising the pay for LTCs to just under that of a TRE, very few are applying. So they will turn to DECs with training experience with some lock into training deal. That's my guess.

I do miss 411A and his wisdom on DECs...

Gypsy
26th Feb 2012, 11:40
So here is my input.

I'm nearer retiring that starting my career. I've done military, civil, long haul, short haul, national airline, charter, major low cost, wide body, narrow body, airbus, boeing including management time and training roles.

The truth is that there are good and bad guys in all areas. Todays long haul captain is tomorrows low cost captain and it works both ways.

There is a certain arrogance in SOME posts here from EK that SOME there think they are better than others. It is quite correct that if recruiting DEC's there should be a high rejection rate at selection; if that high rate continues during training then there is either something wrong with the training or there was something wrong with the selection.

DEC's bring different experiences which can be useful and amongst other things, can help to avoid those within a large company thinking that they are in some way superior - they probably are not. A DEC will inevitably take a little while to become familiar with new destinations but this is not unsafe; if it was how would any airline ever go somewhere new?

A large company like EK can absorb some DEC's and benefit from the experience whilst still leaving the large majority of LHS slots for internal upgrades.

Finally, few of us these days join an outfit as a young F/O and stay there until we retire. Most will at some point leave, quite possibly from the LHS and seek a DEC job somewhere so just cut the hypocritical rubbish.

theidler
26th Feb 2012, 12:23
I've done...

...management time...

...certain arrogance...

...think they are better than others...

...thinking that they are in some way superior...

...just cut the hypocritical rubbish.


Be sure to take this line at the interview.

Gypsy
26th Feb 2012, 14:09
I do not think I at any time mentioned applying.
Don't assume check - one of the golden rules
For the record, I'm not applying as I have a job that pays more and despite ups and downs as in any airline, I am content at present.

Runcorn Bridge
26th Feb 2012, 14:25
I 100% agree gypsy. Why do some people think that every time you join a new airline you must start at the bottom?

How many out there would seriously consider going from a Captain to a Junior FO every time they moved on?

Wait until they are in the LHS I can guarantee they'll see things differently.

Kernow 101
26th Feb 2012, 14:39
And finally the speculation ends...........https://ekgrpapplications.emirates.com/Careersonlineapps/JOB_VACANCIES/JobDetails.aspx?advno=64AD3E6059F3E34D:}

HPIC
26th Feb 2012, 15:38
I'm quite surprised to see the weight requirement is 50T instead of 55T. I'll bet there will be a huge number of DEC applicants with no time in anything larger than ERJ190/195(over 50T but under 55T). They must have selected 50T with that in mind.

What other modern, EFIS/FMS equipped jets are over 50T but less than 55T that they could be trying to include? I can't think of any. 717IGW maybe, but not sure.

5star
26th Feb 2012, 15:52
The sarcastic thing about the DEC recruitment is that they (silently) removed accelerated command for guys from within.
Unbelievable if you ask me.
I wonder how much collateral damage this will cause on the FO side.... After all, many guys would qualify straight for the left seat now.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

safelife
26th Feb 2012, 19:06
54.884 kg to be exact :O

atiuta
27th Feb 2012, 02:07
Accelerated FO's that whinge about DEC's really need to take a look in the mirror.

LHR Rain
27th Feb 2012, 15:12
Pilots that DEC really need to take a look in the mirror.
Especially the ones that seem to gravitate to EK.

fatbus
27th Feb 2012, 16:23
With all the jobs out there why would a DEC want to come to EK ?

The Dominican
27th Feb 2012, 17:05
One thing that always happens when there are many choices is that the attrition levels grow at every job, is the eternal search of greener grass I guess:hmm:

busav8r
27th Feb 2012, 17:36
I hope the TREs stick together, look after their own and send a clear message by failing as many DECs as possible.


I cannot imagine what toilet-bowl abortion you evolved from to make such an outrageous statement. No Emirates TRE would ever consider acting as shamefully as you suggest.

You have proficiently succeeded in ensuring the opposite effect of your pathetic desire. No doubt, ICAO and the UAE GCAA will now be aware that the integrity of the Emirates Airline may be compromised due to the possibility of manipulated DEC pilot selection/training in order to placate disgruntled First Officers. These entities will now more closely monitor Emirates pilot training. Ironically, any sub-standard First Officers will be more exposed.

On the very, very, slight chance that any renegade Emirates TRE may subscribe to your retaliatory methods, I suggest that any DEC who fails selection or training and feels they may have been discriminated against in any Emirates simulator, submits a detailed report to the respective civil aviation legislative authorities.

In the USA the Pilot Record Improvement Act 1996 (PRIA) is in place. The Act requires all airlines to provide training records, including simulator reports, of any former employee, before that person can be recruited by a US airline. In anticipation of any replies to this post that the requirement to produce records only applies to US airlines, it does not. Emirates flies to the USA, therefore, FAA inspectors may request training records from Emirates and take the appropriate action should Emirates not comply and/or the records are determined to be false.

Inciter, I suggest you pursue your cause with Emirates management rather than hoping that TRE's act illegally on your behalf.

:D very well said

WJAPilot
27th Feb 2012, 20:00
Are Villas still supplied to an applicant with a family - say even the despised DEC.

what neighbourhoods do the supplied housing usually end up in.

Curious.

WJP

fade to grey
27th Feb 2012, 20:51
Christ, what a mess. Obviously no one is good enough to join emirates as a captain. All that other experience is bogus. Just really shows what egotistical self centred wankers some people are.

Truth be told it seems to me, if a monkey with an licence turned up they would get an fo job. And, no I didn't fail selection but some if the people I have flown with were...a tad average and they got in.

And on the flip side, elsewhere, we see ryanair pilots are being specifically targetted for their superior flying skills ! Yes , short haul Europe is great preparation for flying half way round the world. Truth is they are no better or worse than anybody else , they just work for a super ****e company.

And don't worry I'm not applying, I have under 3000 command hours, albeit over 100 T. Hey , wonder if I can multiply my hours by 2 and a bit on that basis?

Patty747400
28th Feb 2012, 00:06
All DECs are inferior to the FOs in EK according to some posters here. That's strange considering the fact that a couple of years ago the same contributors said that EK was "scraping the bottom of the barrel" for FOs. How come these lousy FOs from "dodgy outfits in the third world" now three four years later suddenly are so brilliant?

Don't worry, I am not interested in EK any longer. Just can't stand some of the infantile posts here.

cerbus
28th Feb 2012, 00:45
Don't worry we can't stand you either.
What illustrious airline are you flying for Patty Cakes?
It will be proven in 12-15 months time that EK scraped the very bottom to fill their DEC ranks. What qualified type rated international widebody captain will come to Emirates? We all know who will come and that is what everyone has a problem with in addition to the ethical question involved.

fringhtok
28th Feb 2012, 01:52
WJApilot,

I may be arrogant but you appear to be incapable of reading. You'll need to brush up on that if you want to come here.

I said 737/A320 guys WITH NO INTERNATIONAL EXPERIENCE.

Apparently, you have international experience. Good for you. That statement doesn't apply to you, does it?
:)

FcU
28th Feb 2012, 02:43
For all the FOs complaining about DECs let's be clear. While I personally don't agree with the policy, this website has been providing plenty of information on the hiring practice of Emirates for more than a decade. EK has always hired DECs throughout its history as deemed neccessary for fleet expansion. You came here knowing that so to now complain about it because it directly impacts your life is a bit rich (cue picture of child stomping feet, fists clenched, eyes tightly closed trying to wish it away screaming ITS NOT FAIR!!!) I have every confidence that any DEC that gets through the command course is qualified to operate as a Captain to the Emirates standard and if they don't will be summarily fired as in the past. Stop taking these decisions personally, They're not!
Besides, from what I've seen in the last few years some of you could use some extra time in the right seat. (inflammatory remark added for my own entertainment):{:yuk:

Fatguyinalittlecoat
28th Feb 2012, 04:57
SKYGODS

What about driving 737's or A320's from Europe to, lets say, Africa? Or from Australia to Asia? Or the U.S. to Central or South America? Is it somehow harder and therefore much more important that it be an A330 instead of an A320? Or that the duty begins in Dubai? By the looks of it, Emirates recruitment don't seem to think so.
And just because it's not a requirement to have international experience, doesn't mean the applicants won't have any.

I do understand the emotion from F/O's about this, I'd be pissed off to, but just because an aircraft only has one aisle doesn't make it an easier operation.

fatbus
28th Feb 2012, 05:48
There is nothing wrong with 320/73 ng pilots ( Capt's) coming as DEC's,some will do fine with some route famil training. The problem is the Ego's of some of the EK FO's , they have Big Airplane syndrome and think they are better than any 320/73 ng Capt. You will fine that they complain on pprune but at work are keeping their mouths shut as they do not want to get noticed in the wrong way.But I'm sure all those highly gifted EK Fo's will all pass the upgrade course with out any problems. Does anyone know why the 777 changes their upgrade cousre?.... Because of the failure rate and the change was not to help the pilots (lower the failure rate)but to save on training duties.

Patty747400
28th Feb 2012, 08:09
Cerbus

I have nothing against you or anyone else here. Just some of the posts. Your post shows very well what I was referring to.
Why the anger? Failed your own upgrade interview? And I wasn't even saying I would apply for "your" job, actually it was the opposite...

sheikmyarse
28th Feb 2012, 08:47
Me think you Ek pilot ,mainly just a bunch of loser. By helping the habibis you are bringing down western aviation you suckers ! And for what? Shut up go to work and take these peanuts. What a ****** up bunch of sorry arsholes spending there time talking about who has the biggest bird! Like 6 years old kid ! I guess most of you did not have a satisfying sex life in your adolescense and resorted to flying just feel "big man" and to compensate. Keep " driving"... I'll fly.

Soab
28th Feb 2012, 12:17
I 100% agree gypsy. Why do some people think that every time you join a new airline you must start at the bottom?

How many out there would seriously consider going from a Captain to a Junior FO every time they moved on?

Wait until they are in the LHS I can guarantee they'll see things differently.

Never a truer word spoken.

I guarantee once the vocal 'FO' opponents on this thread leave EK with 3000 widebody command, because theyve had enough of EK and/or Dubai, Id bet they will be applying, expecting,hopeing for a DEC with the airline theyre applying to. They may well only apply for the job if a DEC is on the table.

Ces La Vie

captjns
28th Feb 2012, 12:22
EK Drivers... any maximum age?

Monarch Man
28th Feb 2012, 12:26
All this indignation! the rules are there so that the company can change them when they want.
I've flown with a few DEC's from the last lot of recruitment, and most of them are good guys, good operators and seem to fit in well to the EK philosophy with the usual exceptions.
As ever the usual chest beating on here shows nothing, nor does it change anything, although I do LOVE the assumption that the FAA can waltz in here and demand training records, it takes about 10 minutes to destroy someone in the sim if you are that way inclined.
Despite what those of you considering a move here actually think, there are a few realities you need to consider.
EK is an outstanding operation when the wheels stay attached, they run a tight ship that lives and breaths operational efficiency out of pure necessity, when the wheels fall off however expect little or no support as everyone and I do mean everyone will do their best to absolve themselves of responsibility and plant the consequences fairly and squarely on your shoulders. Ordinarily you'll say "hey no problem, it's what I do everyday anyway" but that's your first mistake, as your Ops, Maintenance and Fleet support staff will quite happily give you enough rope to hang yourself given half the chance.
So what? you say, well back in your home town/country etc the consequences are a lot less troublesome as they can be here, so be warned, and get used to incredible India as a little birds tells me it's the 330 for quite a few DEC's :E

Lionfish
28th Feb 2012, 21:04
It is not a shock to me that EK FOs are disappointed. In my own company easyJet we too have taken DECs this year admittedly onto the 320. However the experience takes you across Europe, Asia & Africa and I don't think there is much more skill flying international oceanic routes with ETOPS aircraft required than there is flying in the London TMA everyday for example.

The aircraft type conversion from a 320 to a 330/340 should not be challenging, so it would be an exercise in adapting to the new airline SOPs and indeed the lifestyle and route network.

I have many friends out at EK and they are in the RHS, not one of them would discourage me from applying for this. So whilst I am an experienced pilot on a narrow body, I am confident that with good training, a committed attitude and with the assistance of most FOs I could easily adapt and be an asset to EK. I think I might apply!

Fuel Dump
28th Feb 2012, 21:33
F/Os (specially the senior ones) thinking that they are better than their captains... I've seen these types before.
Let them operate the landing gear lever a few more times that they calm down! :ok:

falcon10
28th Feb 2012, 22:00
F/Os (specially the senior ones) thinking that they are better than their captains... I've seen these types before.
Let them operate the landing gear lever a few more times that they calm down!

Or captains thinking they are better than their increasingly much more experienced first officers... I've seen these bafoons before too! The cockpit is MIXED up with all levels of experience these days thanks to widespread industry redundancies, making long time captains finding themselves sitting in the right seat, and for one to assume that the stooge in the left seat is superior is quite presumptuous and ignorant to say the least! This attitude makes for a wonderful cockpit experience with fantastic CRM! :rolleyes:

cerbus
28th Feb 2012, 22:07
None of these narrowbody domestic pilots have said what airline they fly for. If you are considering EK you have answered my question.
Just because you are in the left seat does not make you a Sky God. If you are flying at a ****e airline you are far from a Sky God. Some of you probably think EK is a good airline. That answers my question as well. If you think EK is good you are flying at a ****e airline.

7Q Off
28th Feb 2012, 23:11
Why you hate narrow body captains. In most stable legacy carriers you go from narrowbody fo to widebody fo, then upgrade to narrowbody captain and later move to widebody captain. Widebody captain is less stressfull than flying 20 days a month, 20 take off and landings, short turn arrounds, just you and the fo, 2 man crew, some days 4 sectors. :ok:

The problem is not DEC guys, the problem is you cant strike against managment because of labor law there. You know the rules were like that when you sign. Strike or dont complain against guys just trying to apply for a job.

Lionfish
28th Feb 2012, 23:33
Well cerbus I did say which airline I worked for. They are far from ****e by the way and they are not a domestic carrier either. I have been a skipper there for 5 years and been unfortunate enough to have 2 engine failures in the LHS, but I suppose to you that experience is not relevant. Good luck to you!

Eric Carr
29th Feb 2012, 02:12
I don't think there is much more skill flying international oceanic routes with ETOPS aircraft required than there is flying in the London TMA everyday for example.
...a bit arrogant wouldn't you say...

vfenext
29th Feb 2012, 02:32
Not wanting to spoil any ambitions but the DEC policy is aimed at a specific type of Capt. The aim is to recruit TRI/TRE's to make life easier for the over stretched training dept. Recruitment already have individuals in mind and MM has his mates earmarked for the jobs. Doubt there will be too many line types taken on as it's risky and expensive. Plenty of FO fodder to do it more effeciently. If you work for Thomas Cook then apply, otherwise expect a rough ride at the assessment.

Payscale
29th Feb 2012, 04:18
Just listen to you guys make my stomach turn. Mine is better than yours, bla bla bla... No wonder our profession has reached new lows with attitudes like that.

We need pilots to expand. Left seat and right seat. Candidates are assessed. Some pass. Most don't. There is no union here. There is no preferential treatment here. The business comes first. Always. Accept this and life will be easier.

Drop the mud throwing. DECs are an extraordinary measure that from time to time is necessary to support our massive expansion. If you didnt know this you didnt do your home work.

If you are a narrow body captain working in a ATC proficient area you will find it a steep learning curve going where we go. As would I if I had to fill your shoes. Good luck and happy flying to all.

Huw Jorgan
29th Feb 2012, 05:34
What a lot of hot air we pilots are able to produce. Never mind, we all have to have a hobby! On topic though, there are many well qualified and interested guys over at the Goat who'd like to swap sides, this would be ideal for EK but not so for QR who have there own recruitment problems. Is the poaching agreement in place?

Lionfish
29th Feb 2012, 07:39
Oh Eric, that was not an arrogant response at all. If you knew me you would know that arrogance is certainly one attribute that escapes me. I was just pointing out that all types of flying have exposure to challenges and risk. The London TMA is a very challenging environment - you probably already knew that though..........

As for ATC proficiency try Marrakesh or Cairo. They are as bad as most.

Commuting Pilot
29th Feb 2012, 07:43
Had to reply to that as I 100% agree with Lionfish. No more real skill is involved.

vfenext
29th Feb 2012, 07:50
London TMA...challenging, that's a joke right? The best controllers anywhere and they spoon feed you all the way. Any monkey who can operate an FCU/MCP can fly the London TMA. Want a challenge, try the Bombay FIR during monsoon or Damascus on a CAVOK day. London is for PPL's :ugh:

woofer
29th Feb 2012, 07:54
Want a challenge, try the Bombay FIR during monsoon or Damascus on a CAVOK day.

The above are demanding and both require a great deal of caution bu, If you REALLY want a challenge go to Lagos.

Lionfish
29th Feb 2012, 08:14
Guys I don't disagree with you! I was merely pointing out that each operation has different challenges. Short runway operation, Innsbruck, Salzburg, ATC in remote places, Nice and a visual circling manoeuvre onto finals on 22R at 800 ft. It's all about being professional an having a level of competence.

There are many airfields in the world that are a threat to safe operation, there are different threats in short haul to long haul. That does not mean however that with a DEC coming into EK will not cope with the different threat and error management to one promoted from within.

I Am not here to knock anyone's nose out of joint, I'm just not prepared to allow unanswered a few rather misleading posts from hacked off guys in the RHS in EK. Whilst accepting that they have a grievance - their grievance should not be with the DECs!

As for not helping yourselves with the argument may I refer you to this commentLondon's for PPLs

glofish
29th Feb 2012, 09:33
1. Wherever you come from, as a DEC it’s not to be underestimated. You most probably have to adapt to a new plane, new destinations and regions and most importantly a new company environment. On the latter there is colorful reading material in abundance on these pages! All at the same time can prove to be quite a handful.
Good luck!

2. As for the disgruntled FOs. You left your company for EK most probably due to career issues. Your buddies stayed and waited their turn there and later passed the upgrade. As they now might join as DECs, you denounce them. Those who qualify most probably were senior to you in the former company anyway, so where is the problem? They waited their turn while you took the short cut at EK. -> Sometimes working, sometimes not working …
Tough luck!

3. Concerning Goat Airlines, I guess most of their pilots had tried EK first, so there was a reason why they didn’t make the cut. Do you think they’ll make it now? That would be lowering the bar wouldn’t it, and EK keeps pretending they don’t.
Good luck again!

fade to grey
29th Feb 2012, 11:23
Isn't all this willy waving great ? I can see why flying isn't treated as a profession anymore...

At the end of the day different operations demand different skills.I have as much respect for the knackered ryanair chap trying to do an NPA into some half arsed airfield in France, after 4 sectors - as much as the long haul chap, doing one sector into some bad wx/bad ATC dump in India or whereever.

It's a form of protectionism.....our plane/destinations/operation (delete as applicable) is harder than yours......We all do it really.My 10p is chambery with a tailwind in 75..

At the end of the day anyone coming off a 73 or whatever will be bright enough to appreciate it's going to be hard work with a new (bigger) aircraft, new destinations etc. I would hope a combination of decent training and the experience requirement would see them through.However as has been mentioned I doubt anyone without significant command time ona widebody will get a look in.

fliion
29th Feb 2012, 12:34
London TMA challenging..?

Your kidding right?

Get a clue.

f.

fatbus
29th Feb 2012, 13:27
Some of you boys(little baby big airplane boys) really need to get out a bit more.

stakeknife
29th Feb 2012, 13:45
"I bet my dads car is faster than your dads car' ... Pretty much sums up this thread!! Good luck to any who apply & to those seeking their upgrade. am sure both sets will be just fine and do a good job.

Runcorn Bridge
29th Feb 2012, 13:52
"Not wanting to spoil any ambitions but the DEC policy is aimed at a specific type of Capt. The aim is to recruit TRI/TRE's to make life easier for the over stretched training dept. Recruitment already have individuals in mind and MM has his mates earmarked for the jobs. Doubt there will be too many line types taken on as it's risky and expensive. Plenty of FO fodder to do it more effeciently. If you work for Thomas Cook then apply, otherwise expect a rough ride at the assessment."

Vfe next, is that an assumption or have you heard this from the horses' mouth?

Are you just trying to put us narrowbody Capt's off from applying?

Do you think a 10,000 hour Capt with 6,500 hours command on 737NG and A320 does not stand a chance of DEC?

vfenext
29th Feb 2012, 13:59
I think they are fishing but prefer training types. Give it a go, they can only say no and you will have lost nothing. It's still a good job in either seat.

Runcorn Bridge
29th Feb 2012, 14:06
So I guess you're making an assumption?

donpizmeov
29th Feb 2012, 15:46
Preference will be given to type rated Airbus A330/340, B777 or other relevant wide body commanders and Instructors/Examiners

Not so much an assumption Bridgey, but more just reading what is written. Check page 8 for what the requirements are. (I understand that English may not be your first language and this line may have escaped your notice:}) There are several Thomas Cook fellas here already on contract that have said they would like a full time gig. They are good guys, typed/TREd already and already know the SOPs training environment etc. EK would be crazy not hire them. These guys already run the recruitment SIMs.

Your chances of being hired are, as vfenext has already suggested, dependent on how many they want and on who else applies. If your interested apply, you have nothing to loose.

The Don

Runcorn Bridge
29th Feb 2012, 15:52
Fair enough. I was just fishing myself. Just wanted to know if I am wasting my time applying or not.

Swan Man
29th Feb 2012, 16:57
We all know what Emirates publishes and what they actually get are two different items.
Recruitment Dept says they are looking for 100 DECs which probably means more like 150 S#$%s. There is no way they are going to find 150 TREs but they will have no problem finding 150 narrow body domestic pilots from very dodgey airlines.
This is ahsame because this will delay the hard working and long oppressed Emirates FOs command by at least a year and more like two years if they go for 150 DECs.
Don't give us the Pravda line of Emirates has always hired DECs. That may be true but it goes without saying that we don't need DECs and just goes to show you what kind of company we are working (slaving) for.

Fuel Dump
29th Feb 2012, 17:39
So Emirates is a terrible place to work for, according to some of the F/Os. Even then they are desperate for an upgrade in that ****e airline.

Low cost drivers can't have it anymore and are looking for sunnier skies and some perks in the desert.

Westeners in Asia dream to come back to the west civilization, but jobs here are scarce and pay little.

So, if Emirates, Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair, Airberlin, etc are all rubish, what should we do? Be born again (german) and try Lufthansa?

Or maybe we could stop moaning and help other colleagues to find greener pastures, instead of hoping that they will all fail in their assessments!

littlejet
29th Feb 2012, 18:00
so, in one sentence, you want to "calm" your senior fos by putting them in their place of gear operator, but want others to help you find greener pastures.
Try that answer on the assesment, nobody has to hope for anything.

millerscourt
29th Feb 2012, 18:30
The Don

Is English not your first language as well by any chance?

You say you have nothing to loose. Is that nothing to lose or perhaps nothing too loose?:D

donpizmeov
29th Feb 2012, 19:18
Fair cop Gov.

The Don

Swan Man
29th Feb 2012, 20:09
So Fueler you want us to help you jump the senority list and at the same time prevent or delay us in getting our commands when again there is absolutly no need for "pilots" like you? Get in line.
You obviously are working at a dodgey airline. Your talent level will show in the interview and lucky for us we will not have to fly with Gems like you.

Runcorn Bridge
29th Feb 2012, 20:25
Swan Man I really don't get your logic saying that they will have no problem getting DEC's from very dodgy airlines. Is it that you see narrowbody domestic airlines as being dodgy? Why?

Do you mean the likes of Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz, Air Berlin, etc. (Even though all of these are international carriers).

Please tell me i'm misinterpreting what you said.

Fuel Dump
29th Feb 2012, 21:03
Swan man, you are the type of senior F/O that I was referring to a few posts ago! For you I have just two words: Gear Down!!!

As per my job I'm pretty happy at the moment, thank you! Don't worry that I'll not delay your upgrade. But by what I read here about EK TREs you have no chance since all your brain seems to be burnt by the desert sun!

Good luck to you anyway.

antonov09
29th Feb 2012, 23:31
And he will need it I would suspect. Some people will never sit in the left hand seat of anything apart form a Cessna 152 or something similar.

Swan Man you fit the bill on paper.

Swan Man
1st Mar 2012, 10:25
I am sick of these narrow body pilots from crap airlines telling me what to do. I came from a airline before I got laid off that paid its stewardress' more than most of you narrow body captains at the dodegy airlines you come form and they work less day than your 20 plus days a month you do. What are you guys thinking with your hourly wages and your 8 days off a month?
The reason you have your commands is your working at such bad airlines that no one wants to work there. Can you blame anyone for not wanting to do what you do? And now you want to jump the line and tell us how great you are? If you were great as you think you are you would not be slaving at the airlines we all know you come from.

Huw Jorgan
1st Mar 2012, 10:30
Perhaps I wasn't being offensive enough to get noticed on the previous page, but there are probably 50 or 60 guys at the Goat applying for the position, never mind Ryanair, these guys have all the requirements including widebody plus are already ME based. Is the poaching agreement in place? I hear it has been dropped but not from any reliable source. DEC is the norm here and no one bothers, just part of the expansion process, and before I get shot down I've been there myself, not pleasant but as they say, 'what to do?'

fliion
1st Mar 2012, 10:51
Varmint - well said.

f

donpizmeov
1st Mar 2012, 11:22
When was the last lot of DEC hired at EK...2007/2008, its not that long ago. There was plenty of discussion about this, and lots of mention of how the then FO community was being bypassed. But still you decided to join. The only thing that is different now, is that it may cause you a delay and not someone else.

Minibus FOs have been bypassed for years by their Boeing comrades and the junior guys give no thought to jumping the list in this case. But that's somehow different right?

To claim that only dodgy pilots from dodgy operations would apply to be DEC at EK makes me wonder where you came from if you decided to give up the left seat to come here as an FO. This argument makes no sense.

We use to think that the hiring of DECs in the past would stop FOs from applying here. It didn't, you all applied and took the job when offered. If you look at the foum about interview info for EK you will find people willing to sell their grandmothers to come here. Once the do arrive, we will have to wait 3yrs or so until the Big Shiny Jet Syndrome starts to wear off them and they too complain about DECs.

At least we got our leave...oh wait there, no we didn't.

The Don

Trader
1st Mar 2012, 11:27
Just look at EK's history. Look at the seniority list and show me where we have EVER had a big batch of DEC's???? There is one here, 2 there, 1 here etc etc.

1. They have NEVER hired DEC's in large quantities!!

2. The company has publically said that the DEC program was considered a failure. The ones that made it are good but there were a large number of failures. It was costly.

3. From what I have heard (not fact) they will likely hire 30-40 DEC's , at most, to cover a 'gap' in the seniority list. I would also guess as a means to get some of the contract trainers on board.

4. Those DEC's will ALL have WB command - especially if it is only 30 pilots!

So while it may not be fair, it is the way at EK. In any case, I doubt it will be more than a slight blip on the upgrade progression.

For the guys from Ryan Air etc who came as FO's I highly doubt any of your former collegues will be hired as DEC's and 'jump' you. There are enough WB commanders and NB Captains at local (Middle East companies with their regional experience) to take the limited spots.

Gypsy
1st Mar 2012, 11:29
I've posted before about my own experience. I'm now a short haul, narrow body captain (well the a/c is narrow body anyway!) but was previously a long haul wide body captain. I gave up the long haul so I could see more of my kids. I know many others who have done the same for various reasons. It is not difficult to go back to long haul and the recent posts suggesting otherwise and referring to 'cr*p short haul pilots' show incredible arrogance.

I also know at least one guy who joined EK having been a captain and they only took him on as a F/O even though they were then recruiting DEC's - so perhaps not all are as outstanding as Swan Man and Varmint believe.

Friends within once suggested many years ago that I join EK as an F/O as with my experience I would get back to the LHS within 2 years or so. I gave it some thought but most people I know who have voluntarily stepped from the LHS to the RHS to join another airline, have had to wait longer than forecast to get their command back. I didn't do it as there are too many variables within our industry beyond our control.

If you were a captain and joined as a F/O more fool you!

For the record i am not applying myself.

Pitch Up Authority
1st Mar 2012, 12:31
I joined EK as an FO at the moment I was a Capt with a flag-carrier that ran into serious financial trouble and was treated like a piece of **** by some ego’s (EK TRI & TRE) that never made it into any serious company before they got into EK during the early nineties.

One piece of advice is: you must be very careful not to identify yourselves with the ego of EK itself. It is not because you have some skills, that other expats (domestic help etc.) do not have, that this means you can expect to be treated any different.

The Middle East is the Mekka of modern slavery, EK owns you. In their perception you are no different than a domestic help from Pakistan, Philippines, Sri Lanka etcetera.

I understand and I feel a lot of empathy with the position the EK FO's find themselve in today, but a reality check is needed. You decided to go to the Middle East. We had turmoil in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and at the present time in Syria.

So get over it, look around you and even in your own house. Be happy that “you” are not the one that is cleaning the toilets.

It is not because you are a domestic help that you could not be even a pilot. For many it means that they simply never got the chance to educate themselves.

Sociopaths run big companies, they have to be, otherwise they would not be able to take the decisions that are necessary. The same is true for every doctor that cannot let the pain and emotions of his patients get to him.

Some of you ran away from Ryanair because you felt that they had no respect for their employees.

EK is like a prostitute; she looks nice and sexy but is rotten to the bone on the inside.

Stay calm, cool and collected and let your situation not affect your family or you will be a long way from home and all by yourself.

Economics is the same as war..... It’s civilians that are the soldiers. If you can weaken your opponent by hiring some of their staff, then that is what they will do. The only risk they take is rioting in their own ranks.... it is not going to happen.

CAYNINE
1st Mar 2012, 13:35
Trader......

Over 100 DEC's in 2004.

Maybe you weren't here then, but no one missed out on an upgrade and most of the guys were good people with good experience.

White Knight
1st Mar 2012, 21:56
3. From what I have heard (not fact) they will likely hire 30-40 DEC's , at most, to cover a 'gap' in the seniority list. I would also guess as a means to get some of the contract trainers on board.

4. Those DEC's will ALL have WB command - especially if it is only 30 pilots!

Fact - 150+ DECs... But less than 180...

Not WB, but 3,000 hrs command on glass over 50 tonnes...

Them's the facts!!!

fullforward
1st Mar 2012, 22:44
You're right on spot.:ok:

Pitch Up Authority
1st Mar 2012, 23:00
So White Knight, I know you have been around for some time.

After your previous post; did you feel important? Or were you just giving in to your narcisism.

Why would EK be in the need of some contract TRE's?

How many pictures did you take of yourself on your black horse?

Patty747400
2nd Mar 2012, 01:49
Called up a friend in EK who's been there for almost 20 years. He has some insight in the recruitment process and according to him no FOs in EK with the required hours will be delayed in their upgrade.
The company had two options, lower their requirements for upgrade within or open for DECs. Right or wrong, they choose the latter.

And, why are you all focusing on the "narrowbody" pilots? The 50 tons is a minimum. I'm sure there are lots of guys with wb time that will be interested. I've met guys here in Singapore with thousands of 777 and/or 744 command hours that are interested. Swan man and cerbus, do you consider SIA a "****e" or a "dodgy" airline as well?

goma
2nd Mar 2012, 02:06
guess all you current FOs when eventually get your CMD in EK and after a couple of years perhaps want to move on will be applying for FO positions as you think its wrong to go direct DEC,can understand your frustration but thats life:

Qatari515
2nd Mar 2012, 04:11
Bite the bullet boys, pilots in many other companies have had to accept this for years in a row now. This is part of modern day aviation and with a worldwide shortage of pilots looming, DEC is here to stay.

I know your management told you that DEC hiring is open till December 2013 ( something like that) , let's wait and see:E

There are no rules in love and war.

takingover
2nd Mar 2012, 05:23
The sense of entitlement & arrogance that some of the obviously aggrieved F/O's have displayed in their posts is astounding! You would think that they are some sort of aviation royalty!

Nobody is entitled to a command. All anyone is entitled to is the chance to attempt the upgrade, once they meet the individual airline's criteria. And there is no evidence that the EK decision to, once again, take DEC's is going to deny anyone that chance. In fact, there seems to be evidence that the opposite is true.

Ek appears to be taking DEC's only because there are not enough F/O's who meet the upgrade requirements & a significant number of those who do have failed some stage of the interview or training.

I find it interesting that some posters here have been at pains to assert that the flying that EK does is too demanding for narrow body DEC's to handle yet, almost in the same breath, espouse the lowering of the upgrade criteria in order to make greater numbers of current EK F/O's eligible for the upgrade. Do they think that sitting in the right seat for a few short years, experiencing the various routes that EK flies on, make them more competent to command an EK flight than a fresh narrow body DEC? EK obviously doesn't think so, or they would give their DEC's more route training than they give the intake F/O's.

I must say that the elitist rhetoric about how it is such a big step from a narrow body to a wide body is starting to wear a little thin. It is arguable that a WB is actually easier to operate than a NB. Any reasonably competent pilot can make the transition without a lot of difficulty. Perhaps they are just trying to convince themselves that they are superior because they have a WB endorsement on the license.

I joined EK as a DEC off a narrow body aircraft, with very little international experience. While I had to put the hard work & preparation in, I found the transition no more difficult than my initial command upgrade training. I find the "F/O babysitting the DEC" comments offensive & delusional, to say the least. I have had to 'babysit' dozens more F/O's over my time here at EK than have ever babysat me.

F/O's who -
- think it is OK to bust STAR altitude constraints by 200 - 300 feet,
- think an ATC speed instruction is advisory, not mandatory,
- think that, despite having alternate fuel in the tanks, it is acceptable to hold at DESDI until minimum fuel for DXB, declare an emergancy & then continue to DXB,
- don't know how long INTER & TEMPO last for,
- don't know what BECMG means & how it is applied,
- don't look at the validity times of a notam & wade through a long & totally irrelevant one, only to miss the next one, which is relevant,
- who don't look at the weather & notams for all the ETOPS airports before finishing the briefing,
- don't listen to the radio & have very little situational awareness regarding what is happening around them,
- call 'positive climb' when the main gear are still on the runway,
- make a suggestion & when you tell them no & why, just go ahead & do it anyway,
- perform the 'MCP finger ballet' on approach because they have very little idea of what they need to achieve with the aircraft & have no idea on how to achieve it,
- call on a frequency over & over again when they are too far away to get a response, stepping on everyone else in the process, & then make disparaging remarks when they hear someone else do the same thing 10 minutes later,
- loudly make an SOP callout while ATC are transmitting to you, because they have no idea of priorities.

I could go on.

If you guys spent just a fraction of the time & energy on doing your current job well, as you spend on denigrating DEC's & going on about what you feel you are entitled to, you would probably have a much smoother transition when your upgrade eventually comes along.

Pitch Up Authority
2nd Mar 2012, 07:35
Mr takingover

I have only one question for you.
Does an ETOPS alternate require ATS or ATC?

Now look it up in your EK manuals and you will see that EK does not know how to despatch a twin.

Visual Procedures
2nd Mar 2012, 07:47
- perform the 'MCP finger ballet' on approach


The BEST description yet!

Love it :ok:

fatbus
2nd Mar 2012, 08:48
EK FO's think they are can pass the upgrade with ease and EK knows what the pass rate is and will be ( going down ) and do not have enough to fill the manpower plan. DEC's are needed to fill in the gap. Someone mentioned TRI/TRE's i believe that is mainly for the 330 as to bridge the transfer to the 380

Pitch Up Authority
2nd Mar 2012, 09:05
How it relates to the discussion.....well.....my post was a reaction to “Mr takeingover” who has an opinion on the EK FO's being ready or not for the LHS.
He puts this in the context of the DEC discussion.
My question to him is in fact directly related to the whole EK training department. DEC is their decision. In this context they should reflect also on themselves.
You can look at all various parameters and criticise your FO on his professionalism with regards to flight preparation.
But what is the point to check if an alternate is suitable or not if you do not know if you can actually use it?
So what is it ATS or ATC? How does EK despatch from SIN to MEL?
Do they need a DEC to come and explain that to them too?

falconeasydriver
2nd Mar 2012, 10:09
Aww come on Takingover (does the name suggest a personality trait?) I wasn't THAT bad, besides, we have cat 3b, why do want to look at that estops stuff?
As for an INTER, that's just oztranauts trying to be cleverer. All the buttons and switches can get a bit confusing though, luckily my arse is usually so numb from the cripple 7 seat, my brain won't function properly anyway. "Mumbai Mumbai do you read?"

donpizmeov
2nd Mar 2012, 10:41
Sittingidly I will never defend the DEC policy. All deliveries this year have been known about for years. That the managers could not recognise that stopping recruitment in 2008 would one day bite, or that they can not plan ahead effectively re manpower needs is nothing new. They sacrifice our days off and leave at a whim to fix their lack of planning, and the DEC hiring now is for the same reasons as last time. Managers care only for their own short term gain (bonus) and have no interest in career development of their pilots. This is why all the hard questions are answered with "If you don't like it leave!".
The difference now is that present FOs new this could happen when they joined. If it was considered ok that FOs were being shafted by DEC hiring when they joined, why should it be different now? The DEC option has been on the recruiting web page, although not active, since the last DEC was recruited. This policy is no secret.
As I mentioned before this new command and transfer policy shafts new minibus captains, and some maxibus FOs. It is great for new joining FOs on the minibus, and minibus FOs who lacked the experience to go 380, as they will now get a command prior to their more experienced course mates who were forced to the 380 "for operational reasons".

The Don

Cancel2LateLunches
2nd Mar 2012, 10:48
To all you potential DEC's criticizing the current EK FO's for complaining about the company seeking to recruit you guys, I agree when they probably are being hypocritical as I'm sure that when they are Captains they will seek employment as DEC as and when they choose to leave EK. However I would put money on the fact that all you potential DEC's are huge hypocrites yourselves, as I'm sure that if you found yourselves in the same situation when you were FO's you would of been screaming from the rooftops about the injustice of it all. So how about you cut them slack, except that they are going to complain and moan and concentrate on passing the assessment. I'm sure if and when you make it into the company you will have no problems with anyone you fly with.

TakingOver and any other current EK captains slagging off the FO's you are flying with openly on PPRune is very bad form and you are really just displaying the characteristics which I have no doubt make you a very painful character to fly with.

Before the question is asked yes I am a current EK FO and I do find the new policy a little frustrating. But I did know it was a possibility when I joined the company and I also realize that there is no point getting to worked up about the situation as it will do nothing to help.

regards

C2LL

Pitch Up Authority
2nd Mar 2012, 10:52
sittingidly

Bullseye post.

The job of Airline pilot is completely ****** up. Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.

It would put some more sensible individuals in the system.


Now "Mr takingover" .... if you want to play little capt knows it all, then lets just do just that.


What about wind limitations for alternate airports ?
Does the gust count or not?
How is crosswind capability determined?
What margin is build into it?


You see flying is more than just learning a few rules, but unfortunately that is what the whole thing has turned into.

BeCareful
2nd Mar 2012, 12:51
Gents, all this bickering back and forth serves absolutely no purpose.

When current FO's start leaving in droves because the company craps on them by hiring DEC's, and when the company can't recruit new FO's, that's when things will change...

Until then, either accept it or vote with your feet.

fatbus
2nd Mar 2012, 14:17
"When current FO's start leaving in droves "


To go where? This has been said before and never happened , but good luck to those who do leave ( for another FO postion of course ). EK knows whats out there, they will not change or react . When you say droves how many of the 1600 FO's will that be?

7Q Off
2nd Mar 2012, 16:29
Emirates use DEC probably because it is cheaper than upgrade an FO. It is faster also. If you upgrade an FO you need to form an other FO. 2 courses. Probably some FO are suitable for upgrade and some are not. It is normal in any company that some FO even that they qualify they fail upgrade courses.

The real thing is that emirates can hire DEC legally if they want. And you know it. The problem is not a narrow body Capt DEC. They are qualified. It is a more relaxed job than 20 days on the field. If you attack them is pilot against pilot. Poor against poor. The problem is management.

duststorm
2nd Mar 2012, 20:27
Pitch Up Authority
You have got to be kidding ! !
" Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system "

What a sad man you are - Irrespective of what seat you're in you must be a bundle of fun to fly with.

White none please
2nd Mar 2012, 23:17
Talkingover,........ you sound like a 'joy' to fly with

BeCareful
3rd Mar 2012, 08:52
Well fatbus, back to your own home country for example... unless you're a local. You know... unions, real legal system, etc.

Can't or don't want to go back? Then quit complaining and suck it up.

No offense, but I am so sick of pilots bitching on here and not willing to do anything about it. What can you do about it? Vote with your feet. Can't or won't vote with your feet? Well... too bad.

Remember, it is the company's prerogative to hire DEC's, to violate the so-called seniority at their whim because in the UAE, seniority as a union concept doesn't really mean anything if the management feels like changing it.

I just hope that prospective new joiners pay close attention to this whether they're prospective DEC or FO, and make appropriate choices. Coming into any Middle Eastern airline as an FO, you need to be prepared to be a career FO... you are at the mercy of the management who can change the rules on you at any time, and are not obligated to provide you with an upgrade opportunity. If you are OK with that and still choose to come here, and I don't mean just EK, but truly any Middle East airline.... welcome habibi! Enjoy the ride, but don't come complaining to me when you don't get upgraded. You knew the rules at joining...

fatbus
3rd Mar 2012, 10:19
Firstly I'm not complaining as it has no impact on my plans, I could care less. I'm just plain tired of listening to FO's constantly bitch, if they leave it makes no difference to me.

DEC's are not new.

Like I said already , EK has been through this before with people saying "just wait til they start leaving in big numbers" and it never happened. How many of the 1600 + FO's are going to go back to where they came from?

I'm not a company guy, far from it, but the reality is once you are here ,they have you, period. Just have a look at how few have left in the last 12 months.

Once you are a contract pilot you give up all those protections you refer to, if you cant deal with that , then stay where you are.

If you ( becareful) start the leaving in droves ,all I say is good luck.

fliion
3rd Mar 2012, 12:14
I somewhat agree with above post except this, and its relevant :

We all knew coming here...fair play is not ingrained in the culture...it's 'objective'/'target' driven.

We also know that in the long run the former will get you better results than the latter. But that takes years of precedence, education & foresight. Western managers have it local über bosses don't . Not their fault, they just haven't being doing 'it' long enough. It being 'the civilized world'...i.e living in tents 40 years ago when Concorde was been flown across the Atlantic...so to my point.

The EK experience is an exercise in body blows...e.g altercation with other driver, mgt, neighbor, training dept etc...some guys have more than others through happenstance others through their own decision making...each blow is a step closer to the exit.

The Reintroduction of DECs is one of those blows that will leave a bruise that will ultimately lead to new skippers in the future leaving for big contact money is Asia

Obviously no one can predict the numerics but I believe the unknown consequence of this decision by the company will ultimately cost them in the long run.. I'm a skipper so I'm past it ..but it's still a kick in the balls (and yes I have DEC mates) because of some of the excellent FOs I have flown with who actually meet the DEC req's but not the FCI's

So to the guys in the RHS...let Karma take care of this one ...It never fails...stay professional & unemotional (as 95% of you always do) get your Type, make that mental note of how you are valued...and act accordingly in the future.

Respectfully,

f

Craggenmore
3rd Mar 2012, 12:36
Just have a look at how few have left in the last 12 months

84 have left.

That's what I've moved up on the S.List so; if 100 DEC's join, has time to command actually changed for me since joining..? Seems to be 100 out and 100 in.

australiancalou
4th Mar 2012, 07:56
Sticking my message from an other post as it probably better suit here (sorry for exceptionally trolling):

I have 12000 TT including 5000 CPT and LTC on A330 and more than 7000 CPT longhaul (B747 and A330) plus 2000 CPT jet.
Is that DEC openning interesting for me?
I am afraid not just because the salary and TCs are not good enough!!!!!
EK will get what they are paying for.
Hope guys (FOs) from inside will be thank for the time they gave to EK.
Why don't EK hire TREs from outside for a short time contract (very well paid and in agrement with other airlines) to train senior EK FOs waiting for their medal? ;)

vfenext
4th Mar 2012, 08:05
Don't worry the last thing we want is another Australian astronaut telling us how to de-ice and fly the NAT tracks. You won't be missed believe me.

takingover
4th Mar 2012, 08:09
White none please, pray tell, why do you say that?

And Cancel2LateLunches, "slagging off" the captains you fly with is also very bad form, is it not? Particularly when someone makes claims of "babysitting" & then provides no facts to back up the claim. I wasn't slagging off EK F/O's at all. I was just pointing out some of what I had witnessed over the years, in order to back up my statement that I had had to "babysit" more F/O's than have ever had to "babysit" me. I didn't want people to think I make sweeping, emotive claims with nothing to back them up.

Some people seem to have been either blinded by emotive, self righteous rage, or show a very poor grasp of English comprehension. I know that English isn't the first language of a lot of pilots at EK, but you have to demonstrate a certain level of english proficiency in order to get the job, don't you? The things my post supposedly indicates that I have done! I've re-read it a couple of times & maybe I'm a little slow, but I just can't join the dots. And just how they know exactly what I think or believe, leaves me wondering if they are actually witches huddled around a cauldron, throwing in frog's legs, cat's whiskers & my post, so they can gain access to my innermost thoughts. Perhaps HR could use them to vet applicants to save a little time.

helen-damnation
4th Mar 2012, 08:57
duststorm :ok::D:ok::ok:

PUA " Regulations should state that above 100 passengers you not only need an ATPL but a degree as well.
It would put some more sensible individuals in the system "

The military tried that, didn't always work 'cos big brain and lots of thoughts but very litle CDF - "Common Dog F:mad:"

Some of us did the University of Life :E

australiancalou
4th Mar 2012, 09:08
BabyGF VFEnext
Try to read between the lines and you will be the one you suspect you are: clever and above gliding in the center of the Universe.
Psychology is very important for instructing and detecting the whole personality of someone in reading only a few words very helpfull for selecting...
DDay mate:}

yoyonow
4th Mar 2012, 10:15
fliion,

Can't disagree with most of what you say, however:

The Reintroduction of DECs is one of those blows that will leave a bruise that will ultimately lead to new skippers in the future leaving for big contact money is Asia

that would be a move as a DEC I presume. What comes around............

Eric Carr
4th Mar 2012, 13:31
I wasn't slagging off EK F/O's at all
Could've fooled me. If you read your previous post again you´ll see that even if you speak English as a first language you might find it a bit offensive.

leaves me wondering if they are actually witches huddled around a cauldron, throwing in frog's legs, cat's whiskers & my post, so they can gain access to my innermost thoughts.
Wow...

fliion
4th Mar 2012, 13:49
Yoyo

50% of KAL crews operating in US must be native English speakers per the insurance requirement ...

Your point is taken

f

Pitch Up Authority
4th Mar 2012, 17:18
Autraliancalu

It takes years of experience AND a degree to be a good psychologist. Even then it is a very grey area. Amateur psychologists have done a lot of damage in the past.

A good TRE is first of all a good captain. Someone who has enough empathy with the way a crew handles the situation, he is NOT a psychologist and far from a psychiatrist.

I have been at various training meetings in EK and more often than not it is a palaver based on distrust in their own crews. The true dynamics are often more an issue of projection than a well evidence-based opinion.

Some FO and Capt are rightfully pissed off and are ventilating their anger on this forum. It is simply impossible to draw any conclusions, based on these posts, as to the capability of these individuals. The word that comes to mind is prejudice

Every cockpit has two seats to be filled. Both require a certain degree of experience. Both pilots need to be able to fly the plane, if needed, as a single pilot in distress.

Some FO's at EK are certainly overqualified for the right seat and are ready to move on. The problem may be just an issue of replacing them. The bottleneck of a company that is expanding quickly might just be to find enough FO’s.

Finding FO’s with enough experience for the long haul is looking for people that are close to command already.

An airline like EK that has a bad reputation as an employer will have to fix:

1. It’s reliability with regard to signed agreements.

2. Create a training environment that puts emphasis on investing in training rather than checking.

3. Use psychologists to screen the cognitive capabilities of the pilots when hiring them. Following this, the upgrade failure rate should be less than 5%. If this was not done during recruitment you will run into problems. Not only during upgrade but also during normal line operations. Every airline that takes recruitment seriously does it in this way. I probably made an overstatement that a degree is necessary but the fact that one should have the capabilities to get one is not.

4. If you have the wrong people in the training department then that will reflect on their decisions and policy advice all the way up the food chain.