V Bomber dispersal airfields after 1968

[Jimlad1]

Gents,

A quick query on the V Force for you. Once it was stood down on the entry into service of Polaris, and adopted a tactical nuclear role, did the system of dispersal airfields remain in any form of practise or use?

In other words, in ttw measures, was it intended in the late 60s or early 70s that the Vulcans etc would go to the dispersal airfields as things warmed up, or were those plans scrapped with the end of the strategic role?

For those worried about OPSEC, the list of dispersal fields is well known and in the public domain!

[Pontius Navigator]

Jimlad, when the deterrent was handed over to the RN only one thing changed. The V-force stood down from the QRA. We no longer mounted one aircraft per sqn at RS15.

In fact the perceived threat from the V-force increased significantly after 1968. Two sqns deployed to Akrotiri and forward dispersals in Iran and Pakistan increased the reach by thousands of miles. When we first deployed the peripheral SAM belt was quite thin east of the Black Sea. Post deployment there was a significant increase in SAM 2 and 3.

I spoke with a crew member from the Strike Wing and they had covered similar targets to the Bomber Wing but clearly the perceived threat was now greater.

[airborne_artist]

I remember Vulcans arriving at Leeming on dispersal in April 1979.

[Jimlad1]

Gents,

This is extremely helpful information- thank you for taking the time to post. I'd be particularly interested in whether Llanbedr, which was by then an RAE establishment, was still used in this way, particularly post 68. Also, whether any dispersals ever ocurred in RAF Chivenor, which wasnt a named location for them.

[pianydd]

I have heard a connection with Vulcans and Llanbedr,but not certain.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jimlad, Llanbedr was a Cottesmore dispersal. I can't recall if the Waddington Wing used it. Similarly Chivenor was used as a dispersal at some point.

[taxydual]

The Vulcan's at Leeming in '79 were on a normal practice dispersal, were they not?

The Aircrew and Groundcrew practising removing the spiders and associated detritus from the dispersal caravans by the Crash Gate to Lawson's Cafe.

From my point of view, as the Runway Caravan Controller, the only excitement was The Scramble.

As the aircraft applied power, the ground shook, the Runway Caravan shook, I shook, my stomach shook. My breakfast was deposited on the grass adjacent to the Caravan, surprisingly the regurgitated best efforts of the Airmen's Mess shook..

Awesome.

[oldmansquipper]

3 o`clock in the morning....Doorbell rings

Wifey goes down to answer it, she quickly returns & says

"There a bloke down there called Micky Finn - he says you have to go to work!"

10 o`clock ...I step out of a smelly vomit ridden Hastings to the beautiful sight of lots of water, loads of hills and some heather.

Midnight - all 4 AFs done, new chutes fitted and I`m staring at the dark waters of Cambletown Loch and my `heed` is thumping from the serious number of malts I`ve tried...:ooh:

Happy days!

[oldmansquipper]

..also "enjoyed" Brawdy, Filton and Bedford...but Macrihanish was the best....

[The Oberon]

Not just the Vulcan fleet. I can well remember a generation exercise at Marham in the early 80s when 55 dispersed to Kinloss. 4 x K2s complete with crewchiefs in the 6th. seat. The support groundcrew were driven from Marham to Kinloss in the old 32 seat blue grey coaches, not one of the happiest days.

[Wholigan]

but Macrihanish was the best


Also used to get the most magnificent kippers there.

[airborne_artist]

The Vulcan's at Leeming in '79 were on a normal practice dispersal, were they not?

The Aircrew and Groundcrew practising removing the spiders and associated detritus from the dispersal caravans by the Crash Gate to Lawson's Cafe.

From my point of view, as the Runway Caravan Controller, the only excitement was The Scramble.

As the aircraft applied power, the ground shook, the Runway Caravan shook, I shook, my stomach shook. My breakfast was deposited on the grass adjacent to the Caravan, surprisingly the regurgitated best efforts of the Airmen's Mess shook..

Awesome.

As far as I can remember it was a practice. I was a baby Dark Blue on the Bulldogs that were then based at Leeming - we went to Topcliffe every day.

The OC of the Vulcan det promised our course a beer if we'd attempt to infiltrate the dispersal area by the cafe. Unfortunately the det minibus was spotted entering the cafe car park and disgorging us so we were bubbled early on and soon in the bag.

How we laughed as we were chased and captured :}

[Whopity]

Llanbedr was a nominated Victor dispersal in 1970

[ZH875]

50(B) Sqn were frequent visitors to RAE Bedford in the early '80s.

I remember one exercise when the SEngO longed a thunder flash straight into the guard sangar on the roof whilst getting to throw it over the roof into the field beyond.

"Stay on the bus" was always the call on arrival at the Keysoe Road gate, as if we wanted to get off......

[green granite]

It always amazed me the way the Fox (now long shut) always managed to order extra beer just before you lot turned up at Bedford. :E

[Timelord]

I was on the Waddington wing from 74 to 79 and my log book records dispersals to Conningsby, Bedford, Wyton and Wittering

[Tinribs]

I was RAE Bedford from 79 to 83 and we had regular visits from the tin triangles but never the Victors

[t7a]

Ballykelly was a Cottesmore dispersal. I seem to remember not being able to react to a scramble message because a train was due to cross the main runway!

[Pontius Navigator]

t7a, quite correct, in fact the Bomber Controller had the time table and provided the train was on time it would work.

Another feature was we had the only flush toilets on the airfield. With the low water table, they said, the resident sqns had Elsans.

One year we had the JSHTU - Hovercraft trials unit - they would hover taxi from the sea down behind our dispersal. They came barging towards us on the ORP and had to do a hurried air dump.

Then there was the strictest adherence to the Bomber Command 4-hour feeding cycle. We had a post-flight, then a high tea of ham and eggs, steak and chips in the mess, and a late supper of H&E when we got back from the bar.

The favourite steward was Jenkins who could do wonders in lighting the fire, laying the tables, and delivery the meals quickly in batches of 5. Like your favourite cew chief, Jenkins was the favourite steward. The others hated him :)

[P6 Driver]

Was the V Bomber dispersal known as Operation Kinsman, or am I thinking about something else?

[Pontius Navigator]

P6, Kinsman was indeed a dispersal exercise where crews allocated to a particular dispersal would exercise that dispersal. It was not part of a force generation exercise.

One we did was Ballykelly with 4 aircraft deploying in on a Monday and operatng out of there until Thursday when we flew home. Another notable one I recall was Pershore. We did a hi-lo-hi in and scraped in below fuel minimums after 5hr 45. We had never been there before but were committed to a straight in approach from overhead Cumberland; the skipper called visual about 50 miles out. The following day we did the same route cut short to 5hr 25.

We had the QRA caravans with individual bunk rooms. I remember getting up in the early morning light as dawn broke and looked in on our AEO the late Paddy Roache. All seemed well as Paddy was standing there half-in, half-out of his flying suit. A few minutes later when he hadn't arrived for breakfast I was sent to find him. He was tucked up in bed. He had been getting undressed!

Kinsman was a routine Restricted exercise although Peter Hennessey makes much of it in his book The Secret State. The nickname was later changed but I can't remember what it was called.

[taxydual]

Op VISITATION.

Thankfully, long gone.

[Pontius Navigator]

Now there is a nickname that it would be hard to work out :cool:

[taxydual]

PN

Like a visit from the Mother in Law, but not quite so pleasant. Or maybe...............................

[BEagle]

EX. INDEX was the name of the Strike Force Dispersal exercise we used to do in the late '70s.

Unfortunately our INDEX aerodrome was RAF Finningley - in those days a Learning Command base full of baby navigators and trainee rear crew. We usually had the night off before the 'fly off'. Supposedly to get some rest, it invariably meant invading the OM bar and returning much later. The next day one often felt distinctly shabby!

The bus was due to return us from the bus on one occasion, but the driver was nowhere to be seen. So OC35 decided to drive us back to Charlie dispersal himself, much to the consternation of the MTO. Fortunately he did so safely!

[Jimlad1]

VISITATION was a Henessy misinterpretation - he looked at the name and thought it was the order to strike. In reality it was the helo evacuation from No10 to designated shelters.

[taxydual]

Thanks Jimlad.

I should learn not to believe everything I read.

[Yellow Sun]

Kinsman was a routine Restricted exercise although Peter Hennessey makes much of it in his book The Secret State. The nickname was later changed but I can't remember what it was called.

Kinsman became Candella

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

YS, concur. That name rings a bell.

On Hennessey, much of the source work is done by PhD students. Having found Kinsman they didn't find Mick or Micky Finn. The Kinsman master opord of course listed, at restricted level, all the dispersal airfields (as addressees/friendly forces) for that year.

PS

I had to educate WOn of God's people about changing of codewords as she had put out an SRO saying that Kinsman was now Candella (or similar Opord) thus compromising the new codeword.

[AR1]

ST Mawgan played host to Vulcan in 80/81 ish.. I recall a particularly foggy night on the airfeild, when I met one coming down the taxiway in the opposite direction. Quick visit onto the grass in the Minivan saw us out of harms way - We'd taken a wrong turning at one of the runway crossing points. - Easily done in the dark and fog.
I seem to recall they were hooked up with some rubber things to comms posts along the Northern parallel taxiway,

[Pontius Navigator]

I seem to recall they were hooked up with some rubber things to comms posts along the Northern parallel taxiway,

Telescramble - aka Bomber Box. There would be a Bomber Box in the sqn dispersal, in ATC and probably in Ops as well. In the late 60s this was an 8-line output from Bomber/Strike Commands WW2 bunker and then split into two 4-set up the country with pairs into each dispersal. Coninuously live with regular (one minute IIRC) confidence pips.

A similar system, Telebrief, served the fighter airfields but this was from the SOCs.

[tornadoken]

The pedantic Answer to this Question (dispersal sites after 1968) is that after 30/6/69 there were none. Individual aircraft, maybe a Flight, did TDY.

The purpose of dispersal was to give PM the option not to First Strike (precisely: First Launch, capable of recall) as the Threat worsened, but to Second Strike, Launch on Warning. Fylingdales BMEWS was live from 17/9/63; Clear and Thule had been up since 10/61 but of modest comfort to UK. Nonetheless Bomber Command stood QRA, 1 aircraft per squadron, 24/7, from 1/4/62. Previous dispersal Exercises worked to a presumed 15 mins. Warning, detection of aircraft Threat. Soviet IRBMs precipitated <4 minute Q.

Operational Readiness Platforms to generate 2 or 4 aircraft 2-3 minutes' Q from 9 Main Bases and 27 dispersals were built to Fylingdales' schedule, initiated by 2/62, done largely in 1963 (Wynn.P.306; P.339 has Waddo's completed 2/63. Posters here doubt some planned ORPs - Bruntingthorpe, Elvington, Prestwick, Stansted). PPRuNers noted (most of) these 27 sites and others, but did not separate Away Day Detached Duty from Q/ORP sites. There was no large scale, armed dispersal before 1/4/62 because:
- aircraft did not sit away from Main Base with live British weapons prior to Yellow Sun Mk.2 (see Brian Burnell's site: learn of chicken feathers and ball bearings); and:
- US weapons remained under US custody. So neither RAFG/Canberra B(I)6/8, standing Q 15/9/60-6/6/72, nor TBF Valiant, Q 10/10/60-26/1/65, could disperse.

Hennessy/Secret State,P.201 has PM valiantly holding Alert 3, on Main Bases, not moving to dispersal...but he did not have the option to disperse because: Marham Valiant/Mk.28 were for Saceur, not him, to Task; his 16 Victor 1/Yellow Sun Mk.1 could not disperse; and for his 16 Victor 1/, 24 Vulcan 1/ and 8 Vulcan 2/YS Mk.2 on 3 Main Bases, there was nowhere to go fit to Launch on Warning. If he were to Launch on Command, use them or lose them, he would give Bomber Command the time needed to do so from Main Base.

Q+dispersal applied thus (derived from Wynn):
Honington Victor 1: 1/5/62-6/11/65, and Cottesmore Victor 1: early-63 - 9/64 (though whether 16 Sapphires could be up and at 'em in 4 mins. is unclear);
Coningsby Vulcan 2: early-63 - 11/64 (Wynn lauds the later responsiveness of Olympus 301, so whether 16 Olympus 201...&tc); Wing to:
Cottesmore Vulcan 2: 11/64-2/69;
Waddington Vulcan 1: 1/4/62- mid-67 (though whether 16 Olympus 101...&tc); Wing to:
Waddington Vulcan 2: 9/66- 30/6/69 (Strike Command Q stand down);
Scampton Vulcan 2/Blue Steel: (inert, from 28/3/63; wet: ) 7/64-30/6/69;
Wittering Victor 2/Blue Steel: (inert, from 24/10/63; 1963; wet: ) 7/64-31/12/68. PPRuNer PN has this combo's readiness as "lame".

Waddington Wing operated Vulcan 2/WE177B 9/66-21/12/82, Scampton Wing, 1/1/70-28/2/82. PPRruNers have Waddington's dispersals as BAC Filton, Leuchars, Machrihanish, Manston, Wattisham; Scampton's as RAE Bedford, RNAS Brawdy and Lossiemouth, Kinloss, Leeming. What they did not do after 30/6/69 was disperse on Q.

[Pontius Navigator]

Tornodoken, comprehensive. The only thing I would say is that the V-force never dispersed on Q. Did you mean they never did a Micky Finn after 1969?

Prestwick was used as a dispersal; I seem to recaall vaguely it was a Cottesmore one. Elvingdon IIRC was a Scamton one.

You say why MacMillan never disperse the force in 1963. Do you have any info on the ring of steel? Bloodhound 1 sites around the bomber bases?

I know Woolfox Lodge covered Cottesmore and Wittering to the west, Woodhall Spa covered Coningsby and to some extent Waddington. There was one at Marham and also West Rainham. Where were the rest? North Coates? Was Catfoss? Haxey?

What was the effective range of a BH1?

[50+Ray]

Tornadoken,
Two points:
1.Vulcan 200 and 300 series aircraft engines had no appreciable difference in light up and go times. On a practice scramble the aircraft were almost sure to be mixed.
2.In the seventies Wittering was used by Scampton, and Wyton by Waddington in addition to those you listed - source : my logbook.

[Tinribs]

I remember Paddy from 360 at Cott and Wyton, lovely man

[haltonapp]

I can remember going to Gaydon and Valley when I was at Waddington 69-70 when the Vulcan dispersed!

[diginagain]

Was Catfoss? Catfoss had Thor. I haven't seen anything that suggests BH was ever based there.

[Pontius Navigator]

DA, I only mentioned Catfoss as it was a regular low level target, along with North Coates, for Air Defence exercises.

[diginagain]

PN; 247 Sqn at nearby Carnaby had BH until disbandment at the end of 1963.

[Free Vortex]

My understanding is that the Bloodhound Mk1 orbat (ISD 59-64/65) was 4 Wings:

21 Wg HQ Lindholme- 94Sqn Misson, 112 Sqn Breighton, 247 Sqn Carnaby

24 Wg HQ Watton- 242 Sqn Marham, 263 Sqn Watton, 266 Sqn Rattlesden

148 Wg HQ North Coates- 141 Sqn Dunholme Lodge, 222 Sqn Woodhall Spa, 264 Sqn North Coates (+ Service Trials Unit)

151 Wg HQ North Luffenham- 67 Sqn Woolfox Lodge, 237 Sqn Warboys

Also trials firing unit at Aberporth & training site at Newton. Some firings also at Woomera.

Bloodhound Mk2 started to be introduced in late 63 (North Coates trials unit) & ISDs 64/65 onwards. OSD 93.

Free Vortex

[AR1]

Stumbled across an old BH1 site, (still recognisable as such on internet maps) near Misson near Finningly recently. Advertised as 'Rocket Site' but with BH mounted outside warranted a quick search on getting home. Before my time, but I was never really aware of localised SAM defences in the uk.

[Pontius Navigator]

As I said elsewhere, the 301 (Skybolt aircraft) engined Mk2s could develop greater thrust if set to take-off power and were thus seen as more suitable for the higher temperatures of the far east. Initially the Cottesmore wing was assigned to the far east role with 24 aircraft. With the pending disbandment of 12 Sqn the Waddington near east role, with a 16 aircraft requirement, was swapped to Cottesmore and the 201s.

The 301 higher take-off power produced significantly more thrust than was needed and increased engine fatigue. They were then restricted to cruise power for take-off which, as 50+ said, meant they had the same take-off run as the 201 aircraft.

[BEagle]

Bloodhound Mk 1 sites were:

Breighton
Carnaby
Dunholme Lodge
Marham
Misson
North Coates
Rattlesden
Warboys
Watton
Woolfox Lodge

We had Bloodhound Mk 2 at RAF Wattisham - one of the missile pads couldn't be used as the launcher would have been about 2 ft from a PSA lighting pole...so the rocket wouldn't have got very far.

Having a SAM site on an active AD aerodrome was...interesting. Although it gave us an excellent excuse for wazzing the place on approved aerdrome attacks (until some mate went over OC Ops Wg's office at about 500 knots), the Rules for security lighting directly contradicted the Rules for aerodrome lights during exercises. So although the area south west of Needham Market might have been a black hole (in lighting terms!), the blaze of security lights surrounding the Bloodhound site could be seen from Lowestoft on a good night....:\

I was fortunate enough to be tasked to arrange some activity for a station Mineval once - an opportunity for much inspired villainy! One item of which was a 'defecting' Vulcan which was escorted through the Bloodhound MEZ by a pair of F-4s. Once inside min. range, the Vulcan crew had been tasked to accelerate and open the bomb doors to see what the reaction from the F-4 crews would be. All went to plan, but as the Vulcan approached the aerodrome, over the ether came the immortal words of the 'Mad Major', 56(F)'s Luftwaffe exchange officer as he broke off from formating on the Vulcan's wing: "SHOOT ZE F***ER!!"...followed by an amused "Fox 2" from the other jet.

[Pontius Navigator]

Woodhall Spa was also a Mk 1 BH base. The launch pads are visible on the google earth imagery from 1999.

[pr00ne]

BEagle,


In addition to your comprehensive list of Bloodhound 1 stations there was also No. 222 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa for the defence of Coningsby.

Interesting thing the Bloodhound 1 force, spawned out of the 'age of the guided missile' 1957 Defence White paper yet they were all gone by 1964 and apart from the Bloodhound 2, which went mainly abroad, no replacement was ever developed. Missile age? What missile age?

[BEagle]

Yes, sorry - I missed out Woody Spa!

When I first arrived at Sunny Scampton, I was intrigued by the local sites which had once been aerodromes - Dunholme Lodge and Ingham were almost within the visual circuit. When I discovered that Dunholme Lodge had been a SAM site defending Scampton in earlier days, it made me rather amused to think that the sole defence we had at the time was the RAF plod on the gate with his SMG - there wasn't even a pass check in those days when you drove in! Although the nuclear weapon storage site was probably patrolled by armed guards and their woolly alligators.

[Jimlad1]

What an absolutely fascinating thread that this has become. Thank you to everyone who posted, as its really invaluable information for me.

It does strike me though that perhaps the time is rapidly approaching to ask our V Force friends to start recording their memories through the IWM - the events of the early 1960s are now half a century ago, and time will start taking those veterans from us in the not too distant future.

Perhaps we need to push for a 'forgotten voices of the V-Force' book, which chronicles the incredible job done by the RAF during this period?

[Pontius Navigator]

apart from the Bloodhound 2, which went mainly abroad, no replacement was ever developed. Missile age? What missile age?

Digressing slightly, the missile age was fine, in theory, at delivering punishment at the touch of a button and defending the bases through SAM. A big issue with missiles is that the SSM is a one-shot use-it or lose-it system optimised for just one enemy and a SAM defence cannot pursue an air policing mission.

The defensive benefit from the UK being an island extends to the ability to engage enemy forces at a distance from the UK. Better an interceptor at 200 miles than a SAM inland in UK. This was brought home when Hungary was becoming a western state. Her air defence was naturally confined within her borders as she is landlocked. The air policing mission was the preserve of a SAM 6 battery in the centre. It was the only unit that could react to a sudden incursion.

As we know, Sandys logic was flawed from the outset but not before the UK aircraft industry was almost destroyed.

[oldmansquipper]

I can still remember (Just) my first posting to Waddo in 63 - straight out of BE training. I have a few "anecdotes" which might amuse should anyoneone want to publish a broadbased (i.e. including us poor bug*ers on the ground) record of cold war activity on the Vulcan Force...

But hurry up - the old memory is dimming:uhoh:

[Pontius Navigator]

OME, well here, for a general V-force flavour, or Did You Fly the Vulcan in the nostalgia forum.

Are you going to the Newark Reunion in April?

[Green Flash]

Ingham

Beags - there is still a detection function at Ingham; the Met Office have a weather radar (http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/34/93/2349311_7942a65a.jpg)there now.

[Fareastdriver]

Lunchtime in the Officers' Mess bar. One young Havn'tbeenanywheredriver buying a pack of Rothmans. Brand new; still a Pilot Officer on his first week on an operational station. Collared by an Air Commodore (Engineering Branch).
"What's it like to be in a dead-end job?"
I had never seen an Air Commodore before let alone answer questions from one.
"What do you mean, Sir,"
"Don't you know you are going to be replaced by missiles in a few years and you will be out of a job."
With that he turned back to his chortling minions.

That was in 1962.

[Roadster280]

I wouldn't carry on worrying about it though. If he was an Air Cdre 50 years ago, he's probably dead by now.

[BEagle]

Green Flash, yes, the weather guessers' beetle and fir cone farm at Ingham (or Cammeringham) was a well known landmark during my course at CFS.

Coming back in murky weather on my A2 ride, I saw it out of the corner of my eye, so knew exactly where I was and would only have had to say "I have control", count to five and turn down the A15 to call right base.... But to heck with that, it would have got us back quicker and given more time for me to cock something up. My 'Bloggs' continued to fly the IF exercise as instructed (he'd aleady been 'picked up' for flying eyes half in and half out when he should have been on the dials), so we wasted an extra 10 minutes or so on the 'radar to visual' approach I'd requested....;).

And yes, a first time A2 pass....:ok:

[langleybaston]

Fareastdriver: the Met. Office equivalent of the missile age was "the paper-less office". This holy grail of non-operational very senior officers, few of whom had drawn isobars on a chart or briefed an anxious OC Ops, was mooted c. 1960 when stinkingfax. machines were installed in Met. Offices and, I think, V force dispersals. The mantra was still being chanted when I handed in the fir cone, crystal ball and seaweed 40 years later.

When I'm right no-one remembers, when I'm wrong, no-one forgets.

Fascinating thread about the sound of freedom, brings back happy memories of feeling useful and valued.

[Squirrel 41]

Tornadoken - many thanks for the comprehensive note. One small point on QRA - Wynn (p.550) has it starting on 1 Jan 62, with one aircraft per squadron.

Hope this helps

S41

[tornadoken]

S41: indeed he does. He also has no co-housing of US and UK bombs, same SSA, and has US gone from BC SSAs 17/3/62. So: YS2 into Wadd/Honington some weeks later. Finningley SSA served Scampton so 27 and 83 Sqdns. could have stood Q from 1/1/62, soon 617 Sqdn, with their interim YS2. Wadd. Vulcan 1 44/50/101 Sqdns. from c.1/4/62, Honington Victor 1 55/57 Sqdn from c.1/5/62.

Plans on paper are Archive sources; facts on ground may have differed. Wynn P.303 has 14/12/59 Plan for 30 dispersals, cockpit readiness at end of runway: i.e: cheap. That could explain posters' suggestions/log book visits to, say, Tarrant Rushton, Thorney I., Chivenor, Shawbury, Kemble, W.Freugh. P.301 has 22/10/59 wish for turning loops at Leeming and Pershore. P.302, 22/10/59 has ORPs as "by far the best method". Then P.306, 2/62 has "a building programme now in hand for ORPs (&tc) at (9 Main Bases and) 27 dispersals"...but that was before 12/62 demise of Skybolt, which was to have equipped at least 48 Vulcan 2, Coningsby/Scampton. I suggest that of these 27, the commitment to Polaris instantly scuppered (Stansted and) Bruntingthorpe, Burtonwood, Cranwell, Elvington, Llanbedr, Middleton St.George, Prestwick: these 7, P.552: "given up in 1966".

PN: Wynn's P.338 BOl.301 point is "a rapid start capability...(by31/12/63) 32 a/c were fitted". MF >1969: P.554 has Defence Minister Healey, 3/7/69: "it is no longer necessary to keep a/c of the V-bomber force at immediate readiness".

[Pontius Navigator]

[MF >1969: P.554 has Defence Minister Healey, 3/7/69: "it is no longer necessary to keep a/c of the V-bomber force at immediate readiness".

This was of course almost a year after the V-bomber force had stood down from immediate readiness. It is worth noting however that there was a partial generation in late July or early August 1968. We never knew why but a partial generation, some 16-20 aircraft IIRC, supported the rumour that the bomber on patrol had either lost comms or was otherwise u/s.

There was, I believe, a further operational generation in late 1969 after Dennis Healey's announcement.

Interestingly DH said in The Human Button that he would never have given the order to retalliate. James Callaghan had no such reservations but did say he would not have been able to live with himself.

[Fareastdriver]

Interestingly DH said in The Human Button that he would never have given the order to retalliate

DH was once a card carrying member of the Communist Party.

[pr00ne]

Fareastdriver,

You sure?

He was certainly a medal winning British Army Major.

[Fareastdriver]

Yes; pre-war at university.

[Milo Minderbinder]

according to Wiki, Healey left the CP in 1939
But so did a lot of others who went "under cover" and cut all overt links with the Communist Party, but remained as secret members for years after
I have read (years ago) speculation that he was one of the purported "Oxford Spy Ring" the supposed undiscovered twin of the Cambridge ring but I don't think anyone has ever come up with any convincing evidence, let alone proof
However he was chums with Ted Heath, who did a pretty good job of wrecking the country, so maybe there is a ghost of truth in the theory...
Perhaps Healey, Heath and Thatcher were three of the Oxford four - after all the later two were both pretty destructive and arguably were partially the cause of the current collapse of the capitalist system (i.e Common Market, Banking deregulation....)

[Pontius Navigator]

MM, nice one. She also f*ck*d communism so you could say she was even handed.

[Fareastdriver]

Whwn I was a kid in post-war London the Communist Party was still in full swing. One has to remember that the House of Commons reverberated to 'The Red Flag' after Atlee's election victory in 1945. The Daily Worker was as common as the Daily Mirror in the shops. In the sixties The Young Liberals was effectivly a Communist Front organisation.
It was fashionable for the intelligentia before the war to join the CP as Russia was seen as the cure for the world's troubles. Nowadays they join the Green Party or Friends of the Earth.

[Milo Minderbinder]

FareastDriver

There is a difference - FoE and the Green Party don't take instructions from the Comintern / KGB / Soviet representatives.

A friend of mine who was an active "overt" member in the 1960-70's has previously made it clear to me that there was significant Soviet "support" to the Communist Party in the UK during that period, and more so during the pre-war period

[air pig]

Wasn't there in the sixties a Liabor defence minister or Air Force minister that the RAF refused to nuclear brief because he was seen to be a security risk?

Regards

Air pig

[Pontius Navigator]

AP, not proven I think. I know there was a move to get ministers security vetted but IIRC Harold Wilson for good reasons rejected that plan.

[Milo Minderbinder]

air pig

David Leigh's book "The Wilson Plot" relates how a Treasury Minister, Niall MacDermot was refused a security clearance because of unproved accusations over his wife's Russian origins / connections
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_MacDermot

The same book (same chapter : 7) also relates how a Labour MP , prospective minister, and former CP member, Bernard Floud, was interrogated by Peter Wright (of Spycatcher infamy) and harrassed into committing suicide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Floud

You may be thinking of one or both of these

(Thanks for the reminder PN - I''d forgotten that book until your post)

[Fitter2]

It would have been entirely consistent for Healey to have been a covert CP member and also a medal winning pongo; during that period the Soviets were our allies - or at least, were fighting our enemies.

[tornadoken]

Not covert. It was entirely respectable to prefer communism to fascism during the Spanish Civil War, widely seen as a rehearsal for the French one. Attlee found it necessary to expel Stafford Cripps from the Labour Party in 1938 for over-enthusiasm for a Popular Front of all Left (= anti-facist) parties. Not readmitted to Labour until 1945: Churchill appointed him Minister of Aircraft Production, where almost his last contract award was to Preston to start Petter off on (to be) Canberra. As Chancellor, paying for it all, he was part of Attlee's Cabinet decisions to initiate the British Bomb (1/47, though excluded from the innermost circle), and in April,1948 to accept the Soviet Threat and Task (thus fund) Staffs to slow Sov. armour on the Luneberg Plain. On thus, to NATO, in which, again, Cripps, was involved. Red: 1936: OK; Red 1948, not. (There's a quote in the sense: if you are not Left in your 20s you have no heart; if still Left in your 40s, no head).

[Pontius Navigator]

In 1948 the communists were getting elected in to executive positions in the Unions. Dennis Healey, then head of the International Department of the Labour Party was adept at passing annonymous reports from the Foreign Office Information Research Department to trades unions and other sections of the labour movement -p.407 The Defence of the Realm - Christopher Andrew

[Whenurhappy]

PN - you beat me to it. I was going to suggest that all the conspiracy theorists should read Chris Andrew's excellent (and official) history of the Security Service, know by lesser churls as MI-5.

Having said that, a relative who was a senior 'wheel' in the Chevaline development in the 1960s has categorically stated that they had been instructed by the Programme Director not to pass any sensitive 'special' material to Dennis Healey's office, becasue of Communist links. But, as Sir Humphrey Appleby stated:

The Ship of State is the only ship that leaks from the top!

Edited to add: Fellow PPruners should take with a grain of salt anything written by either Chapman Pincher or Peter Wright. Both were fantacists who did the public and political image of the intelligence community grave harm.

[Fareastdriver]

Chapman Pincher! That rings a bell. They did a one off trial rear facing ejection from a Valiant in the early 60s.. CP got hold of this and he wrote a premonition that must have been composed after a hefty liquid lunch. He forcast that Comets and Brittanias would be fitted with rows of these seats and paratroopers would be fired in broadsides from them into action.
The laughing in the Air Ministry was heard in both the War Office and the Admiralty.

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, but you forgot to mention where the liquid lunch was served.

Press baiting was a popular sport in the main bar of the RAF Club in he days when liquid lunches were the norm and many MoD wallahs had virtual digs in the Club.

Points awarded no doubt if your line was swallowed and appeared in the following day's paper. Also known as Teddy baiting as he was one of the main targets.:}

[BEagle]

'Teddy' Donaldson baiting at the RAF Club was indeed a well-known sport, so one of my bosses once related and the results often made interesting reading in the national chip-wrappers!

For younger readers, 'Teddy' was Air Commodore Edward "Teddy" Mortlock Donaldson CB CBE DSO AFC*, a WW2 ace, CO of the RAF's first jet squadron and the former holder of the world air speed record in a Meteor IV, who later became the air correspondent for the Daily Torygraph.

I'm sure the sneaky old bugger actually knew he was being spoofed, but the odd comment in the paper served to keep him popular amongst the MoD-box inmates.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Fellow PPruners should take with a grain of salt anything written by either Chapman Pincher or Peter Wright. Both were fantacists who did the public and political image of the intelligence community grave harm.


That book by Leigh about "The Wilson Plot" does a pretty good job of outing Peter Wright as the uncontrollable lying conniving conspiracy schemer he really was. By implication Leigh also destroys much of Pincher's work as well - as Wright was one of Pincher's major sources
I suspect Leigh probably also has inaccuracies - but its interesting to read as a counterbalance to the raving hysteria of "Spycatcher", and Pincher's related offerings.