Prince Harry - Apache Pilot

[STANDTO]

its the little details that count

BBC News - Prince Harry qualifies as RAF Apache helicopter pilot (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16959431)

Unless there has been a mass defection of the AAC to the Blue side?????:ugh:

[Ken Scott]

I appreciate your frustration but most RAF assets & personnel in theatre are normally attributed to the army (well, they're all wearing combats....) so it cuts both ways!

[Grumpy106]

Congrats to Prince Harry for qualifying as an Apache pilot. Maybe he can join his brother in the Falklands now - perhaps a small deployment of Apaches for a CAS exercise? That would really put the wind up the Argies!:eek:

[ZH875]

As if he could possibly fail

And he won a prize for the best something our other.

Cynical nah not me

[500N]

ZH875 and others.

I see comments like this and would really like to know.

If he wasn't good enough, would he have been failed ?

Secondly, if he wasn't any good, why did he win one of the two trophies
from the course ?

Finally, one media outlet quoted a senior officer saying he wouldn't be flying
an Apache if he wasn't capable of doing so.

What is the truth ?


I just find it hard to believe that the Army would allow someone less than capable to pass in a multi million dollar machine but one that also has the potential to costs other people their lives if he cocked up.

Would the RAF pass a Prince as a FJ pilot if he didn't cut the mustard ?

[Jumping_Jack]

Not just an Apache pilot, but 'Top Gun' in his 'fighter helicopter' - The Times. :D

[Jumping_Jack]

Link has been amended

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, had he failed he would not have been the first prince of the blood not to cut the mustard, but he didn't fail.

[teeteringhead]

But to make up for that, BBC Radio 2 News the other morning said Prince William was a Search & Rescue pilot in the Falklands - with the Royal Navy!!

[Tankertrashnav]

Precisely PN - Prince Edward famously failed to win the green beret at Lympstone and left the Royal Marines (thankfully, I'd imagine) to pursue interests more suited to his taste. I'm guessing Harry deserved to pass.

[airborne_artist]

It's just possible Harry takes after his uncle. Andrew was a very able pilot and QWI.

[Whenurhappy]

We are talking about the competency of fellow servicemen (and dare I say, fellow officers). We don't openly question on this forum the skill levels of named SP and we should afford their royal highnesses the same courtesy.

Bottom line: both officers have qualified to operate complex aircraft in very difficult - and different - environments. William is already doing it 'for real' and young Harry is likely to go back into combat sometime this year. Let's not question their competency - these guys have achieved something that c 95% of the population have not got the ability to do!

[Training Risky]

[Bthese guys have achieved something that c 95% of the population have not got the ability to do! [/B]

True if they were Joe Bloggs, but they are not. They present a whole host of security, ceremonial and political headaches for any QHI, Stn Cdr and AOC. Imagine the fallout if Wills got chopped for low-level nav or Harry couldn't master AFCS-out spot turns within the allotted syllabus hours.

While we're on the subject, how many flex hours did each pilot receive? Was it more than Joe Bloggs on the same course? How much instructor continuity did they receive (I'll bet it was nothing less than 100%) I think the public should be told!:E

[Wizzard]

While we're on the subject, how many flex hours did each pilot receive? Was it more than Joe Bloggs on the same course? How much instructor continuity did they receive (I'll bet it was nothing less than 100%) I think the public should be told!



What stage were you chopped at?

[Training Risky]

Last week of the OCF a loooong time ago, but that's immaterial to this discussion surely? I'm not the one who (potentially) got special treatment by dint of birthright.

There is a serious point here, I'm not just having a whinge - due to their status as royal princes they will NEVER be just another officer or just another pilot. They will never be subject to the same f*ckarounds that the common serviceman gets. That's not treason or inverse-snobbery talking, just a fact of life. (And fair play to them, the princes may even want to endure the same admin, trivia and grind that we go through whether on det or at home...but they can't because CDS has the power of veto!)

[seafuryfan]

These guys can't win either way, can they. They're not Royals by choice. Sure, they're on their initial military career as part of a mapped portfolio, but they passed their courses through their own efforts, just like everyone else.

I wouldn't normally comment on a Royal thread, but I do get a bit fed up of the 'conspiracy' views about fixes etc.

[Jayand]

They have passed their courses and deserve recognition for it, they are willing to put themselves in harms way and do their bit for their country like generations of Royals have done.
Whats the problem? they probably did get a little bit of slack but I don't believe for a second that they have passed when they should not have.
I know of several people including a high percentage of good looking (relative term) women who passed courses that they probably shouldn't have, I think we all do.
Let them get on with their jobs ffs.

[ZH875]

Harry has never been accused of cheating before, has he

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/10/schools.alevels2004

As always there is no smoke without fire.

[Courtney Mil]

Well said, Whenurhappy!

We don't openly question on this forum the skill levels of named SP and we should afford their royal highnesses the same courtesy.

Well done, Capt Wales. A good result.

Courtney

[fallmonk]

Can someone answer me a question ,
It's reported that the prince has qualified as a "pilot" but in the link on the BBC website.he's sitting in the front seat of the apache. Is that not the WO position? And the fact he won a Award for top of his class for shooting ?

Sorry if I have picked this up wrong . Are all aircrew in apaches called pilots?
I am no way having a go at him this is a genuine question,
Good on him on this achievement a very hard course and well done to him for doing everything in his power to get back to the front line in Afganistan .

[Tinribs]

There is some unfair stuff drifting in here, we should be proud the Royals are doing their stuff in harms way

Both Princes are a credit to our country, each according to his character; one thoughtful hard working totally dedicated and the other a dashing sort. We can all see bits of the person we would like to be in each of them

The trainers have the same problem as other fields, nursing, driving, painting et all; the worst outcome is; you sign them up and it goes wrong

No doubt this is especially to be avoided now and so they are likely to have been carefully scrutenised and corrected where necessary

In peacetime those joining squadrons could expect a fair workup to a war footing but present joiners may be "at the front right" smartly

[oggers]

Good on them both. I very much doubt they required special treatment. They seem to be made of good stuff, just like their recent forebears. Prince Edward not getting his green hat only serves to reinforce the point (and all power to him for trying).

I think it would also be a huge boost to moral if Pippa was to join up.

[FODPlod]

Fantastic that both the princes have qualified on such demanding courses despite having so many high-profile commitments and distractions not suffered by others. I'm sure they share the same personal concerns, too.

BZ to both of them.

[Top Bunk Tester]

It's just possible Harry takes after his uncle. Andrew was a very able pilot and QWI.

And his father was a Challenger Tank commander in GW1 ;)

[The Heff]

I don't fully agree with Training Risky's argument, but he had made one statement that I'm in full agreement with:

due to their status as royal princes they will NEVER be just another officer or just another pilot.

Prince Harry has already been prevented from serving with his unit in Afghanistan amid the fears that he would be a high-profile target and therefore increase the risk to himself and to his men. Prince Harry had trained with his troop, and was aghast to be told that he couldn't serve with them.

I believe that Prince Harry is as capable as any officer in the British Army, and I daresay that he won his award on merit alone. However, media interest will probably prevent him from ever deploying on dangerous operations.

Its also the same with Prince William. Just a brief look at his service history shows unique experience. Afterall, how many officers have served in the Royal Navy, the British Army and the Royal Air Force?

[parabellum]

Can someone answer me a question ,
It's reported that the prince has qualified as a "pilot" but in the link on the BBC website.he's sitting in the front seat of the apache. Is that not the WO position? And the fact he won a Award for top of his class for shooting ?



Maybe one qualifies in that position and gets promoted to the Pilot's seat later? It would be ideal if both crew had a very comprehensive knowledge of what is required, yes?

The Apache course in the USA may possibly sort out those who are best in which seat?

Does anybody know?, does it matter?

God bless the pair of them for stepping up to the plate.

[Pontius Navigator]

It's just possible Harry takes after his uncle. Andrew was a very able pilot and QWI.

Not to forget that daddy and granddad were also accomplished pilots flying all sorts like 146 and Nimrod.

Why Granddad like nothing better than flying a Nimrod from Sandringham to Balmoral :)

[SASless]

Its also the same with Prince William. Just a brief look at his service history shows unique experience. Afterall, how many officers have served in the Royal Navy, the British Army and the Royal Air Force?

Just proves the fellow cannot hold a job!

[Top Bunk Tester]

Not to forget that daddy and granddad were also accomplished pilots flying all sorts like 146 and Nimrod.


Accomplished?

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C701-0FE7-4086-80FA-EEF5242D2A13/0/maas94_01_bae_146_cc2_ze700_29jun94.pdf

[melmothtw]

these guys have achieved something that c 95% of the population have not got the ability to do!

Aye, but as 95 per cent of the population don't lead the 'Jim'll Fix It' lifestyle of these pampered princes I guess we'll never know.


they passed their courses through their own efforts, just like everyone else.


While they may have passed their courses through their own efforts (and this is debatable), it certainly wasn't their own efforts that got them onto their courses in the first place.

[oggers]

Prince Harry has already been prevented from serving with his unit in Afghanistan amid the fears that he would be a high-profile target and therefore increase the risk to himself and to his men. Prince Harry had trained with his troop, and was aghast to be told that he couldn't serve with them.

I believe that Prince Harry is as capable as any officer in the British Army, and I daresay that he won his award on merit alone. However, media interest will probably prevent him from ever deploying on dangerous operations.

Worth pointing out that he did actually do 10 weeks of ops out there before the media blackout was violated by johnny foreigner.

[500N]

"While they may have passed their courses through their own efforts (and this is debatable), it certainly wasn't their own efforts that got them onto their courses in the first place."

Can't penalise him for who his parents are.

And I am sure the Military gets plenty of free advertising mileage out of them being in the armed forces and serving in the various services so it cuts both ways.

Would the top brass really have put Capt Wales onto the Apache course if they didn't think he had the aptitude / skills to at least have a good chance of passing ?
Considering the media interest, I think putting him on the course and having him wash out would not have been a good look and he maybe would have been "steered" in another direction.

[Avitor]

I find it interesting, one brother seeks to save lives, the other to take lives. :cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

Accomplished?

Sorry, I missed off irony in my post. Sandringham to Bamloral should have given the clue.

Anyway, thank you for the link for those unaware of the Bonny Prince's exploits.

[Tankertrashnav]

And his father was a Challenger Tank commander in GW1 http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Yawn :rolleyes:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Maybe Princes do get some slack in flying hours, if in the opinion of the QFIs / QWIs they will come good in the end. This is no different to ordinary mortals, and I was bloody grateful for this myself in training.

As to the media stuff - they always sit pilots in the front of any aircraft, any aircraft with two crew has two pilots, and it doesn't matter how many times you tell them otherwise. They have a stereotype, and neither they nor the RAF PR types are prepared to change that. Since the stereotype is that we are "The Few" with a bit of "Top Gun" mixed in, it's not worth arguing about.

[Genghis McCann]

The stuff on here would be better in the Daily Mirror. These 'insights' are similar to the crazy conspiracy theories of who killed Princess Diana - did MI6 really do it and surely we should be told? Whether MI6 would have done it or not turned out to be irrelevant - they did not have to as a drunken French driver in the pay of her idle layabout boyfriend's corrupt and decadent Egyptian father did the job for them. Similarly, you can argue whether or not Royal Princes would be unfairly helped through flying training or not, should the need arise. Boring as it is for the conspiracy theorists to accept, they have not had to as they have made it comfortably through under their own steam. As others have wisely said, no one would publicly speculate about their colleagues' ability on here - why do it with Prince Harry? He has proven himself to be a popular and capable officer who has won prizes for his ability. You can only hide a lack of ability for so long - if you hand out flying and gunnery prizes to someone who cannot fly a kite then someone, somewhere on one of his courses will let the cat out the bag. As that has not happened, I stand by the view that he is a competent guy who is serving his country in dangerous times - just as his Uncle did so willingly before him. If that were any other family in this country, we would applaud and admire it - I choose to do just that in Harry's case.

[FODPlod]

Accomplished?

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C...00_29jun94.pdf (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C701-0FE7-4086-80FA-EEF5242D2A13/0/maas94_01_bae_146_cc2_ze700_29jun94.pdf)

One thing I've noticed about military websites in particular. They seem to be populated by professional paragons who have never put a foot wrong (or possibly never held that much responsibility for weighing, accepting and taking risks). Such 'perfect' posters appear eager to judge and come down like a ton of bricks on anyone 'guilty' of the least sign of human frailty, especially if it involves a royal prince or a similarly high-profile figure unable to respond in kind. Is it any surprise that we've become so risk-averse these days, both as a nation and as the armed forces? Hold people (and units/services) to account by all means but don't write them off professionally just because of an isolated incident.

Taking pride of place in my downstairs loo is a small framed section of the hull of a ship I impaled on a steel-capped pile during a particulary heavy berthing on a gusty Friday afternoon with an onshore Force 8 and no tugs available. This keepsake was presented to me by my ship's company when, still a relatively junior officer, I relinquished Command a year later. Why was my ship's company so appreciative? It was their final opportunity to take weekend leave after a long and demanding work-up before deploying east of Suez for eight months. By not standing off or going to anchor, they were in time to catch their trains home.

Fortunately for me, this was at a time when my entire competence and subsequent career weren't judged on the basis of a single incident. The damage was repaired by the time we left UK but I still received a well-deserved rollicking from CINCFLEET for breaking his ship. :)

[Evanelpus]

Well done Harry Wales.

That mad Argentinan bitch would have something to moan about if we sent Harry instead of William!

[ShyTorque]

While we're on the subject, how many flex hours did each pilot receive? Was it more than Joe Bloggs on the same course?

Hopefully less than you....

[airborne_artist]

Let's think of it another way. How would we feel about Princes William and Harry if they had never shown any interest in military service and swanned about opening the odd fete, while doing nothing that brought them into daily contact with the real world?

[Exascot]

Top Bunk Tester, I trust that you are OK, old friend. Jolly warm here!

Accomplished?

Sorry, but that was a bad call. You know the Captain involved. He is one of the very best I have ever had the privilege of flying with. There are circumstances which can't be reported which are not reflected in the official report. However, I take your point, HRH Prince Harry does not take after his father. Following in the footsteps of HRH Prince Andrew and HRH Prince Philip I will agree with, in the case of the latter I have first hand experience of his flying skills.

Furthermore to the arguments here: one may get a commission because of who you are, one may even get the choice of posting because of who you are (or a Freemason!) but one does not get awarded the top scores on a course for these reasons.

Congratulations Sir.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Hi Exascot

Wish it was warm here.

By no means did (do) I agree with said report, was merely posted to refute the, now said to be ironic, assertation that said HRHs father was an 'accomplished' pilot.

Although not subscribing to the risk averse nature of todays RAF/AAC, I think it does show that these two guys got to where they are on their own merits and congratulate them for it. Were it any other way they would never have been allowed through todays system.

Also, FODPlod, in the military I was in any minor/major screw up led to relentless banter lasting years, which was also given and taken in good stead. But then you'd probably call that bullying or harrassment. :ugh:

[Tourist]

Exascot

Insinuation is a nasty thing.

"Circumstances which can't be reported" leaves a slur that can't be defended against, and is thus cowardly.
Either tell us the whole story, or keep quiet about it. To do otherwise is frankly weak.



Those who denigrate the princes are equally weak, because the princes cannot defend themselves.
I would contend that for every advantage given to them in the selection/flying training process there are ten extra challenges. Who amongst us would have liked to go through flying training with the whole worlds media watching avidly for a mistake? Who else has ceremonial duties? Who else has the difficulty of maintaining relationships under the scrutiny they do?
If they were ****, do you think that some **** would have not sold the story?

[Exascot]

Top Bunk Tester, I understand, of course. I would never 'drop' you in it, even the pig farm!

Now look at the Sh1t you have got me into :eek:

Tourist, PM me with your security clearance level.

[Pontius Navigator]

FODPlod light blue also presents pigs awards too.

No sooner had a Jag Mate dropped a practice bomb carrier on the range but his mates turned up in a Land Rover to collect the trophy. Burst tyres were another presentation piece and even pieces of telegraph pole duly mounted :)


PS

Exascot, apologies, had I not posted my now ironic post . . .

[dead_pan]

Does anybody know?, does it matter?

When an Apache rocked up to my daughter's riding stables a few years back (true, but don't ask), when chatting to the crew I got the distinct impression the WO was the lesser of the two roles. Still, a tough job to qualify for.

Whether he was given more benefit of the doubt during his training for PR or whatever reasons, we'll never know. That said his Uncle Andrew was binned from the Marines for failing to make the grade.

God bless the pair of them for stepping up to the plate.

Who can blame them - like most young lads they want to have some fun before settling down to a life of luxury interspersed with tedious social engagements.

[SunderlandMatt]

Apache is flown by two pilots. The front seat pilot is also the gunner and tends to be the aircraft commander. Don't think of AH as having a pilot and a WO, both go through the same pilot's course and the same initial stages of OCU.

Front seat is generally acknowledged to be more challenging, you need to be a strong pilot because you don't get as much stick time but you also need to have the mental agility for attack aviation and mission command.

Bravo Wales.

[goudie]

Dead-pan

That said his Uncle Andrew was binned from the Marines for failing to make the grade.


It was in fact his uncle Edward. Uncle Andrew carried out picket duties during the Falkands war.

[sidewayspeak]

Both are supremely privileged through an accident of birth. Both have chosen to serve in the military in whatever capacity is pragmatic - the heir to the throne could hardly deploy to Afghanistan. Whilst they may have been special treatment - more so William with his personal course - both have met the standards. They deserve respect for that, and admiration for their desire to serve the UK.

Sure I would like a bit of their 'fame and fortune' (I prefer Pippa to Kate though), but I would not criticise either of them as fellow officers. Seem like decent blokes too.

Well done to both of them. BZ.

[diginagain]

I just find it hard to believe that the Army would allow someone less than capable to pass in a multi million dollar machine but one that also has the potential to costs other people their lives if he cocked up.I wondered about that too, but they let me through. Must have been the funny handshake.

[XV277]

Apache is flown by two pilots. The front seat pilot is also the gunner and tends to be the aircraft commander. Don't think of AH as having a pilot and a WO, both go through the same pilot's course and the same initial stages of OCU.

Front seat is generally acknowledged to be more challenging, you need to be a strong pilot because you don't get as much stick time but you also need to have the mental agility for attack aviation and mission command.


Are both not trained/qualified to the same standard, but operational roles are decided at Squadron level?

Well done to the lad, if he wasn't capable, they would not risk his life, his oppo's life, a multi million pound aircraft AND the lives of the troops on the ground they are there to support by letting him play at it.

[dead_pan]

Goudie - my bad. Got me hereditary billionaires mixed up.

Both have chosen to serve in the military in whatever capacity is pragmatic - the heir to the throne could hardly deploy to Afghanistan

I'm sure the 2.8 million plus Muslims in this country will have views on any member of the royal family deploying to Afghan. Still, I'm sure the powers that be must have thought that through.

[Courtney Mil]

Dead Pan,

You talk a lot of sense here, but I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at.

I'm sure the 2.8 million plus Muslims in this country will have views on any member of the royal family deploying to Afghan.

Why shouldn't British Muslims be as proud as anyone else that the Pinces are serving their country, just like a lot of British Muslims do?

I'm still not sure why we're even questioning these pilots' competence.

[Genghis McCann]

I am not really sure why the views of the Muslim population should be too much of a consideration in this discussion. As with just about every aspect of UK life, the 2.8 million Muslims are likely to find themselves at variance with the the views of the other 57 million people who live here. From my observations of life overseas, I have not noticed too much consideration being given to the opinions of non-Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa. If they have a problem with what their adopted country is doing, they have the same legal recourses everyone else has. If, having exhausted those possibilities, and they still really have a problem with what our country's policies are, they can always leave and go elsewhere. How hard can it be?

[dead_pan]

CM

I just think that Harry's (re-)deployment, particularly in such a high profile and, dare I say, controversial role, may generate resentment amongst segments of our population. Given he's already been out there once before I think it would have been politick to deploy him somewhere less sensitive this time around. The Falklands have already been mentioned:ok:

I also get the sense he's being fast-tracked for deployment, perhaps at his behest, which is a bit unseemly. I suspect the majority of our forces personnel don't exactly relish the prospect of deployment to this theatre.

[The B Word]

Seeing as "H" is now a qualified nose gunner should we make him an honourary WSO?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/Album%20No2/Album%20No3/Album%20No4/WSO.png

By the way, of course its a harder job than being the handling pilot any Phantom, Tornado or Buccaneer Nav will tell you that! :ok:

[Harley Quinn]

Barely a day goes by where I work without one of the youngsters coming and asking if I can get them out there. This is what the current generation have seen, grown up with and want to be part of, essentially for the last 22 years since GW I. Personally I sometimes think they're mad but I and my colleagues will always do whatever we can to help the guys out

[phil9560]

Deadpan-who really cares what 2.8 million Muslims think about what Prince Harry is doing ?

[Melchett01]

Can someone answer me a question ,
It's reported that the prince has qualified as a "pilot" but in the link on the BBC website.he's sitting in the front seat of the apache. Is that not the WO position? And the fact he won a Award for top of his class for shooting ?

Sorry if I have picked this up wrong . Are all aircrew in apaches called pilots?

Yes, all AH aircrew are pilots. The ac is physically handled by the pilot from the rear seat, whilst the weapons and sytems are operated from the front seat by the co-pilot gunner. Effectively it is the opposite way round to a FJ, but whilst the RAF has pilots and WSOs front and back, the AAC decided to go for AH being operated by 2 pilots - as I believe the US and other operators do.

The rear sear handling pilot is often a SNCO, whereas officer aircrew will generally fill the CPG front seat in a mission commander type role. But the front seat mission commander will also be trained to fly as a handling pilot in exactly the same way as the rear seat occupant because there is always the possibility of them being posted to another ac type such as Lynx that doesn't have the weapons systems. Also, it means that should the handling pilot in the back be incapacitated for whatever reason, the front seater can take control.

So in a nutshell, yes, he is trained and qualified as a handling pilot, but the way the AAC employs its officers means that whilst on the AH Force he will most likely be a front seater as his primary role.

[500N]

dead pan

Libya might have been a good and less sensitive deployment for Prince Harry.

[Courtney Mil]

Thanks for your answer, Dead Pan. I do see your point, but I would say he's an LCR front line pilot, wants to be treated as such and that is in his job description. If the ops we're in are contraversial that's one issue, but we shouldn't be attaching any strings to any front line operator unless there is a security reason for doing it. That's why he had to be brought home last time, which was fair enough.

He wants to be in the front line, he has earned his place there, the UK is engaged in that operation, the British public (no matter what their faith) should be behind him just the same as we all are behind all our military guys and girls.

Am I being too simplistic?

[dead_pan]

I accept your comments but given the lengths the AAC go to protecting the identities of serving Apache crews, it does make me wonder as to the wisdom of Capt Wales deployment. Are we all content with the fact that the 3rd in line to the throne is now going to be our most well known Apache combat pilot after 'Ed Macy'?

[FODPlod]

Does the AAC go to particularly great lengths to protect the identities of serving Apache crews?Grandad Bill the Falklands ace flies back into action to take on the Taliban (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216315/Grandad-Bill-Falklands-ace-flies-war.html)

[TheWizard]

There is a whole load of them posting on T W I T T E R, so not that well protected! ;)

[SASless]

....accept your comments but given the lengths the AAC go to protecting the identities of serving Apache crews...

Do they hide the identities of all serving helicopter crews?

Why just the Apache folks....and not the rest?

Surely, OPSEC places a similar value upon other than Apache lives....or does it?

Or...is this another load of crap being put forward as fact?



What is with all this discussion of the difference in front seat and back duties?

The aircraft was designed to have the Pilot in the rear....and the Pilot/Gunner up front.....at least in the US Army versions who designed and built the aircraft. We don't draw such a huge distinction between who rides where as in time everyone winds up in both seats with experience.

Or....is this a class thing to the Ruperts?

Uh Oh....sorry....did not mean to bring "Class" into the instant discussion!

[parabellum]

That said his Uncle Andrew was binned from the Marines for failing to make the grade


I was told by someone on the staff at Lympstone at the time that Edward handled all the physical stuff quite well but realised that he had no killer instinct, quite the reverse in fact and voluntarily withdrew from training, rather than being 'binned'.

Regarding Harry being fast tracked to the ME, I imagine the Army are going to get as much out of him as they can before his time is taken up with public and ceremonial duties. Has Harry become full time AAC with the possibility of being a Sqn then Regt commander or does he remain in the Household Brigade? Either way he probably has a relatively short flying career ahead of him.

[Milo Minderbinder]

If they're good enough to do the job them let them
What should never be allowed to happen again is that one of the royals should ever be promoted to a position such as Mountbatten had, where due to his royal status as First Lord he was able to run his own military policy with no regard to the other services or politicians, His destructive campaign over TSR2 should be enough to prove that no-one with that degree of "untouchability" should ever be allowed to hold high position again

[wokawoka]

Oh please get over yourself! See link 4 posts above.

AAC is part of JHC. I do not see JHC working so hard at protecting the Chinnie and Merlin crews' identity (mainly Chinnies as Merlin do not make the news :E!). That is because no one really is!!
THEY are the ones landing in the Green Zone after all!

Not that the Apache guys do not take any risks, I hasten to add before someone jumps down my throat.
And yes I have been there many a times, and as my handle says I have landed in the green zone a couple of times too!

[GreenKnight121]

What is with all this discussion of the difference in front seat and back duties?

The aircraft was designed to have the Pilot in the rear....and the Pilot/Gunner up front.....at least in the US Army versions who designed and built the aircraft. We don't draw such a huge distinction between who rides where as in time everyone winds up in both seats with experience.

Or....is this a class thing to the Ruperts?

Uh Oh....sorry....did not mean to bring "Class" into the instant discussion!

The very fact that some are asking about it means they are uninformed about the Apache and its cockpit layout.

Reality is, BOTH seats have flying controls. This is so that a casualty to either aircrew will not render the aircraft unable to fly.

The front seat is used for the pilot assigned the shooting role because it has the best view for the gunner, but both can (and often do) fly the aircraft on the same flight.

[GreenKnight121]

AH64 - Apache (http://www.nme.de/cgi-shl/nme/ah64.php)
23 - PILOT POSITION The most notable change from the A model Apache, is the pair of Bendix King MFDs. Measuring 6inches x 6 inches, each screen is surrounded by selection buttons mounted on the bezel of the unit, 6 buttons to a side. At the corners of each unit are controls for brightness, contrast, as well as other functions. During the operation of the displays, the outer edge of the screen feature menu selections that would correspond to each of the buttons.

In the vicinity above the starboard MFD, the Up-Front Display can show additional information in alpha-numeric form. Here, there is also a control for brightness as well as controls to scroll the display up or down. Above the port MFD is a very prominent Fire Warning display featuring warning indicators for both port and starboard engines as well as the Auxiliary Power Unit.

Above the instrument panel coaming are some traditional dial instruments to provide backup to the standard digital instruments. Both collective and cyclic controls are studded with various switches in order to allow the pilot to control various functions without the need of releasing the controls.

24 - Co-PILOT / GUNNER POSITION Looking like some type of periscope, the most prominent feature of the front cockpit is the Optical Relay Tube (ORT) mounted in the center of the instrument panel. This is the key display and control unit for the CP/G, while performing tasks crucial to the gunner's role. Through this device, the CP/G can locate, identify, track, and engage targets.

There are three main sections form the ORT. At the top of the unit sits the Head Down Display (HDD). It is a monocle display unit surrounded by a rubber coaming which would surround the gunner's eyes when his head is down in the unit. It is this section which gives the ORT its periscope-like appearance. With the gunner's head down in the display, video is placed before the right eye by means of a lens. The area occupied by the left eye is thus far not in use and sealed with a plastic cover. From this display, data from the various sensors can be presented to the CP/G through a combination of video images and alpha-numeric symbology. Being that close to the display, fine details of video images can be seen by the CP/G, crucial for detection and identification of targets.

Below the HDD is a small screen which serves as an HDD repeater display. This allows the CP/G to avoid being tied to the HDD during all phases of the operation. On either side of the ORT's column are hand-grips which allow the CP/G to control various functions of the sensors and weapons, without breaking contact with the HDD. The T-bar grips are similar the HOTAS (Hands on Throttle and Stick) system found in today's modern fighters. They allow the CP/G to perform critical functions without requiring the gunner to lose site of the target, in this case by removing his/her head from the HDD. There are differences in the layout of both the right and left grips as there are differences in the functions that each perform.



The left hand-grip features the following controls:
weapon trigger
switch to select between sensor modes (FLIR, DVO, DTV)
FoV selection (wide, medium, narrow, zoom)
weapon selection switch (gun, rockets, missiles)
auto-tracking controls



The right hand-grip houses controls for the following:
laser range-finder/designator trigger
laser tracking controls
laser boresighting controls
FLIR "white hot" / "black hot" selector
manual turret controls
video-recorder controls

In addition to the ORT, information can be presented to the CP/G via a pair of Bendix King MFDs, exactly like the pair in the pilot's cockpit and capable of displaying the same types of data. Also present in the front cockpit are both cyclic and collective controls. The center-cyclic stick has the capability of folding down to the floor of the cabin when not in use in order to not interfere with the operations of the gunner's position. The Up-Front controller occupies the space in the extreme top-right sector of the instrument panel. Much like the pilot's cockpit, there is also the same Fire Warning display located to the upper-left corner of the instrument panel. Also present are control panels for the weapons, a data-entry keyboard, communications controls, circuit breakers, as well as some of the other controls that would be necessary for piloting the Apache from the front position.

Thus, both Apache aircrew have to be qualified to fly the aircraft!

[P6 Driver]

ZH875,

Why stop with this?
The moon landings were faked and JFK was shot by Hitler - allegedly.

Some people can't accept that some have more talent than others. His position in life undoubtedly helped to open doors and helped make opportunities happen, but if anyone thinks he would be trusted with both the aircraft and responsibility for the lives of others without the ability is dreaming. Wake up and smell the conspiracy!
:rolleyes:

PS: Where I live, some chap put notes under windscreen wipers last week to drum up support for his campaign against the government, who are poisoning us by spraying chemicals from airliners (he doesn't believe the rubbish about contrails existing). Are you related?
:p

[Pontius Navigator]

I have a couple of photos from 2 weeks ago of a chemtrail operation over Norfolk. Great big circles as the seeder made sure of proper coverage.

Allegedly it was an E3 contrail orbit, but how else would you explain Norfolkers?










:}

[dead_pan]

Oh please get over yourself!


Never!


AAC is part of JHC. I do not see JHC working so hard at protecting the Chinnie and Merlin crews' identity (mainly Chinnies as Merlin do not make the news http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif!). That is because no one really is!!



From your experience would you say the heli crews take more precautions when back in the UK compared to most other trades?

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

Just a thought on the comments way back in this thread suggesting that HRH may not have deserved the gunnery prize he was awarded. Given that he has probably been practicing deflection shooting and dealing with a great variety of moving targets using just hand and eye coordination since not long after he learned to walk, it would be a surprise if he WASN'T a damn'; good shot.

[NutLoose]

I bet he never gets mentioned in tranche 3 and 4 of the Redundancies..

[Doors Off]

He has completed the training, met or exceeded the required standard and will be under the same threat as the other pilots. Good on him and I think it is an honourable thing to do.

Appears a lot of jealousy is invested in several comments. Applaud the man for his courage and wish him and his fellow Unit members Godspeed. :D

Wish some of the representatives down under had the balls to do as he has done. Shame Dame Edna is a bit too old.

Doors Off

[500N]

Doors off

" Wish some of the representatives down under had the balls to do as he has done. Shame Dame Edna is a bit too old."

Not sure what you mean by "representatives down under", we don't have any royalty, we are servants under HM !

Dame Edna - LOL - Her glasses and hair do would get in the way:O



I think both of the Princes have done very well in both civvy side and military considering the rough trot they had growing up. I think it has probably surprised a few ?

[Training Risky]

While we're on the subject, how many flex hours did each pilot receive? Was it more than Joe Bloggs on the same course?

Hopefully less than you....

Oooh that's interesting Shytorque...you must have been one of my instructors as you know so much about me? I have nothing to hide...I was called, I tried, I was chopped...life goes on. Happy with what I do now ta.

I just don't see why a prince with all the resources and clout of the Kingdom available to him passing a flying course is worthy of all the praise you see written here? Where's all the praise for Joe Bloggs on the next graduation?

But fair play to them both for wanting to do it!

[Tourist]

All who pass deserve respect Training Risky, just as none that pass deserve to have bitter chopped types like yourself trying to insinuate that they didnt deserve to.

Why are you on this forum?
It is for those who are not chopped.

[Training Risky]

none that pass deserve to have bitter chopped types like yourself trying to insinuate that they didnt deserve to.

Pop a betablocker me old', you might keel over judging by your anger levels! I was a bit bitter a while ago, but that's irrelevant now. Much happier out of that game thank you.

I'm not implying they didn't deserve to pass, just merely questioning the fawning adulation by this forum and the popular press for a pair of princes who were NEVER going to go without all the help and assistance in the FT system in order to reach the 'required' end result. Come on, why did Wills have a bespoke graduation at Cranditz then straight off to Shawbury? And deep down you know I'm right.:= (It's quite ironic considering that I work for their Gran and I think the chaps are good ambassadors for us.)

Why are you on this forum? It is for those who are not chopped.

"Something...something...all the backroom boys and girls are welcome here..." I can't remember how it goes?:=

Besides, does getting RAF wings qualify? I may have lost them because there was no room on Jetstreams at the time, but that's a numbers game - ask the 100-odd ex-Pilot Officers sacked last year! Oh well back to 'straightening chairs'...with your permission of course...your holiness.

[Doors Off]

Tourist, some big words at TR there mate. having had the displeasure of "chopping" a few trainees, I prefer the term "doing their final military flight", I think you have been a bit harsh there. Any person who gives pilots course a go deserves a pat on the back, many are not brave enough to risk failure in order to gain success. TR is maybe still interested in Military Aviation? Maybe that is why he is on here. Doesn't mean I agree with the underlying tone of jealousy I detected in his posts about the HRH's.

Doors off

[parabellum]

Just a bit puzzled. Training Risky achieved wings, why is he now referred to as 'chopped'? I thought only a disciplinary matter could 'de-wing' aircrew? I don't agree witn TR's view of things, he appears to have a very big chip, but is he 'one of us' or not?

[FR8R H8R]

With all the inbreeding amongst the royals, i am impressed hank knows up from down!

VIVA LAS MALVINAS! :}

[Exascot]

I thought only a disciplinary matter could 'de-wing' aircrew?

If my memory serves me correctly (rare) six months operational before set in concrete?

[Training Risky]

six months operational before set in concrete?

Correct - I made it to the last week of an OCU/F but the multi-engine stream was full to overflowing with people like me...like I keep saying, this is not about me ...no chip here thanks...just a humble servant of the Queen expressing his opinion on FT-related matters. I think many, many years in the system may have have qualified me to comment?

[Easy Street]

I'm aware of at least a couple of guys chopped at fast jet OCUs who went direct to ground branches due to the parlous state of the ME and RW training pipeline several years ago. Many of their friends, chopped at a much earlier stage of training, had meanwhile become safely ensconced in a ME or RW cockpit and were doing very well. It's a harsh world out there in 22 Gp!

[SASless]

One thing about air force fighter pilots....they all think they are the best. They sure tell us that often enough. It must be tough hitting a 10,000 door long fully instrumented paved runway with all those lead in lights and such.

But then...without a Carrier to separate the sheep from the goats....how would they know the difference?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I think many, many years in the system may have have qualified me to comment?

Not a convincing argument on its own, dear chap...too many of those who spend ages in training and end up chopped have a very distorted view of reality, in particular a remarkable inability to admit that their own shortcomings were directly responsible for what happened to them. So you might be in a position to offer a worthwhile perspective, but then again, judging by your earlier comments, you might not...

There are few things I can do to any decent standard, but one of my specialities is being able to recognize and admit publicly that my FJ 'career' was (brutally:{) truncated because I was unable to achieve the required standard. Not because I had an off day, or because of an evil instructor, or because I "could easily have been a fast jet pilot but decided I didn't want to" etc etc.

[Training Risky]

Not a convincing argument on its own, dear chap...

Oh well, how about this one then...it's only the internet. And this is the hyperspace equivalent of a heated chat in the bar and all opinions are heard?

I am unconvinced by your logic, as all of our chuntering is anonymous, unattributable and we could all be plane-spotters on our Mum's internet connection...even you. And as Easy Street rightly says, large numbers of peeps were shafted by the clowns at PMA...so a lot of flying careers (but by no means all) are by virtue of being at the right place, right time, no cutbacks, etc. As I said, ask last year's crop of ex-Plt Offrs what they think about quotas?

Now back to Prince Harry and his trophy...

[oggers]

I just don't see why a prince with all the resources and clout of the Kingdom available to him passing a flying course is worthy of all the praise you see written here? Where's all the praise for Joe Bloggs on the next graduation?

Yes, and when Joe Bloggs gets chopped it don't feature on the 6 o'clock news neither. Poor old Joe Bloggs.