Senior Officer Numbers in MOD

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Did anyone else notice this article Armed Forces chiefs dodge redundancies - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9057408/Armed-Forces-chiefs-dodge-redundancies.html)

[Bunker Mentality]

Yes, I did.

[Finnpog]

Good comparison in the article with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. I doubt that the world would end were the country to have a shower of falling stars.

[whowhenwhy]

Yup. I also noticed how, in the process of reducing the size of the HQ at High Wycombe, we've managed to create new 1* posts by establishing 1* Force Commands at airfields:ugh: Surely we've got the stage where we have one 4* CDS, three 3* heads of service and then downwards. But then it would also help if we did a re-structuring across Defence that actually allowed us to deliver effectively, rather than salami slicing to ensure that everyone keeps their own little empire; BM being a case in point :suspect:

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe some Air Forces have managed to reduce their command structure with a consequent drop in star count. (RNZAF - group!)

Now we have a 'high' star count so we can look other air forces eye to eye. Well the US managed to drop 5* in peacetime. What our politician should do it to persuade ALL the other NATO nations to down rank as well.

Instead of bumping up perfectly competent flt lt to sqn ldr for comparability get the others to drop down a rank. If that carried on up the line . . .

[Stuff]

Instead of bumping up perfectly competent flt lt to sqn ldr for comparability get the others to drop down a rank. If that carried on up the line . . .

Sounds fine but you'll have to add more than 9 levels of pay increments or you'll just irritate the competent flt lt who now can't get promoted and will look elsewhere for better compensation package and a job that challenges him/her.

You might get away with it in the current economic climate but as soon as things pick up outside you can guarantee that all your experience will walk.

[Lima Juliet]

The 1-star Force Cdrs are coming from current manned posts at High Wycombe - ie. AO ISTAR to Waddington, AO ATAAR to Brize, etc...

No replacements at High Wycombe...

[Jimlad1]

"What our politician should do it to persuade ALL the other NATO nations to down rank as well."

The politician that manages to acheive that should follow up with delivering peace in the Middle East and trying to turn water into wine :ok:

There are a lot of reductions going ahead (I've heard figures suggesting a 20-30% drop in 2*s being put about by credible grown ups in open forums). The issue is more to my mind that while switching off the 2* isn't a major problem, its working out what to do with the rest of the organisation thats left behind that is more of a challenge. I suspect it'll take anothe 18 months or so to deliver the change we all know is inevitable.

My own view - both the RN and RAF will shortly move to one x 4*, two x 3* and the rest at 2*, with a small number of joint posts in the pool to compete for.

[Willard Whyte]

Sounds fine but you'll have to add more than 9 levels of pay increments or you'll just irritate the competent flt lt who now can't get promoted and will look elsewhere for better compensation package and a job that challenges him/her.

Just bringing back the fun to flying would be all that I'd ask.

If I weren't to be redundant.

Can't abide chiselers. Never promote those who wish for promotion.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I could never understand why we needed a Wing Commander to run a Squadron and a Squadron Leader to run a Flight....

Are the officer types so shallow that they need titles rather than fun and money?

[iRaven]

Rank equivalency, old chap...

Lt Cols or Cdrs run Sqns in other air forces and so Wg Cdrs in ours. Oh, and the reason why we don't have Lt Cols or Cdrs in the RAF? Because the other 2 Services couldn't stop bickering over what ranks the newly formed RAF should have - so "Boom" Trenchard made them up!

iRaven

[Airborne Aircrew]

So it was inter-service jealousy....

And there was I thinking I was being led by thoughtful adults... :E

[dalek]

British Armed Forces have 467 (ish) Officers of one star or higher.
The US Marine Corps with a greater number of soldiers, ships and aircraft cope with 80.
Even that does not tell the full story.
On my last cruise I sat with a recently retired US Marine Colonel. He estimated that at least ten of their one stars were in non established posts.
That makes us overestablished by around 650%.

[Wrathmonk]

Rank equivalency

Wasn't that also one of the reasons why the rank of LCpl was introduced into the RAF Regt? Or was it

inter-service jealousy??

:E

[Thomas coupling]

Its the last bastion of civilisation old boy. Promote them and give them a desk job in Abbey Wood so they can't get weeded out during redundancies.
What did you do in the military daddy? Well darling I was deputy FO, SO1 to CoS, 1:yuk:Gp.

Do certain elements still attach their rank after retiring - in civvy street, too? :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Bengo]

The original article also missed the point that you don't need to make 2*'s and above redundant when the job they are doing disappears- They either get a new appointments as a 2*, are promoted and appointed as a 3*, or are put on the relevant retired list in the normal way.

I think there is a scheme ( not redundancy though) which would partly compensate a newly appointed 2+* for a shorter than normal notice to join the retired list because his post has been terminated.

Still be a damn good idea if we got the numbers down dramatically.

N

[Pontius Navigator]

LCpl as the pongos couldn't understand SAC - with no aircraft.

Flt Lts used to run sqns with only one wg cdr and one sqn ldr. In the RAF the concept of the overborne sqn ldr led to rapid rank inflation and job creation.

In 1968 one sqn ldr might be 1st RO for 50 JO. The following year with sqn ldr leaders as 1st RO for 10-12 each.

When I meant rank pruning I meant across NATO but accept that some micky mouse countries might need air commodore sqn cdrs.

One cruise ship I was on the captain wore the rank of a vice-admiral. The following year I saw he was a rear-admiral! British shipping companied tend to have just one commodore for the whole fleet.

[Red Line Entry]

I think the comparison with the Marine Corps is potentially misleading. The USMC are only a part of the US military, thus they do not necessarily have to provide the full range of cover that the whole of the DOD does. For example, they may (and I speculate here) rely on disporportionate centre support for issues such as procurement, administration, PR, legal, national policy making, international engagement, retirees, financial scrutiny, etc.

A far better comparison would be with the whole of the US military.

[teeteringhead]

The original article also missed the point that you don't need to make 2*'s and above redundant when the job they are doing disappears- They either get a new appointments as a 2*, are promoted and appointed as a 3*, or are put on the relevant retired list in the normal way.
... I think that's right Bengo.

Far be it from me to say somethingb that might be construed as in support of multi-stars, but my understanding is that if theer's no job at end of tour - off you go.

And I joined a 150k strong RAF, led by a 4-star Chief..... Now we have a 35k-ish (and heading further south) and a 4-star Chief!!

[Airborne Aircrew]

And I joined a 150k strong RAF, led by a 4-star Chief..... Now we have a 35k-ish (and heading further south) and a 4-star Chief!!

If it keeps going the way it is you'll have even less to the point where you could be managed by a Lance Corporal Rock Ape... :\

[teeteringhead]

If it keeps going the way it is you'll have even less to the point where you could be managed by a Lance Corporal Rock Ape... ... thinking of applying A A? ;)

[skippedonce]

'The 1-star Force Cdrs are coming from current manned posts at High Wycombe - ie. AO ISTAR to Waddington, AO ATAAR to Brize, etc...

No replacements at High Wycombe... ':=

No, but a new 1* JFACC at HW, 1* Typhoon Force Cdr at CY, 1*Tornado Force Cdr at MR, while retaining the 1* AO Combat Air, so no 'replacements', but a bunch of new jobs in the shires instead.:ugh:

[ksimboy]

Didn't the navy try a cull of senior officers around 100 years ago? Am sure the RAF could (without too much effort) arrange for an exped to Antarctica for several multi star chaps . Beats the hell out of them forming committees to see see which of the lower ranks get shafted rather than them and their pensions/gold plated jobs with Aviation industries.:ugh:

[Gene Genie]

Good spot Crab, and some very funny posts.

I heard anecdotally (a while ago cos I've been in a bit) that at the time there were more Wg Cdrs than WOs and MAcrs combined. I wonder how recent redundancies have skewed that ratio!

It was just a rumour though...

[muttywhitedog]

If it keeps going the way it is you'll have even less to the point where you could be managed by a Lance Corporal Rock Ape... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif

Even if you were, that LCpl would still be overseen by a dozen Flt Lts, 10 Sqn Ldrs, 8 Wg Cdrs, 6 Gp Capts, 4 Air Commodores, 3 AVMs, 2 AM and an ACM.

That poor LCpl would be too busy making brews/driving/answering the phones to conduct annual CCS for those poor officers!

[VinRouge]

Anyone else noted the swines have protected themselves with the "10 year Grandfather" rule on pensions changes as well?

Certainly makes it much easier signing off changes to the Untermensch's terms and conditions when you know that if you are retiring in the next 10 years, you are golden?

[air pig]

Medical branches of all three services have a high number of officers of Squadron Leader to Group Captain and other service equivalents as the pay scale equates to that of their civilian counterparts in the NHS.

Regards

Air pig

[Red Line Entry]

VinRouge,

Are you speculating or have you seen something official?

[Climebear]

Red Line Entry

The HM Treasury Report - Public Service Pensions: good pensions that last (http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pensions_publicservice_021111.pdf)

Has this on Page 10:

for those public service workers who, as of 1 April 2012, have ten years or less to their current pension age, the Government’s objective is that they will see no change in when they can retire, nor any decrease in the amount of pension they receive at their current Normal Pension Age. Schemes and unions should now discuss the fairest way of achieving this objective, taking full account of equalities impacts and legislation, while ensuring that costs to the taxpayer in each and every year do not exceed the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts for public service pensions;

VinRouge

This would appear to apply across public sector pensions and - IIRC - was as a result of TU consultation on other public sector pension scheme. I don't think we can accuse their star-ships of self-preservation on this.

[VinRouge]

No, but I bet it made it a bit less of a bitter pill to swallow for all those in senior management who know their pensions are going to be safe.

The head of RBS put his bonus on the plate. Wouldnt it be nice if the seniors were to give up grandfather rights up bearing in mind the very large sums they will retire on anyhow, say at 1* level and above?

I cant imagine they will be retiring to a life of gruel whilst my generation are screwed from pillar to post, not only in respect to pensions, but the huge public sector liabilities we are now left with at their enjoyment.

[[email protected]]

How about not promoting so many people? You only need 3 years seniority in rank to be promotable whereas the NCA cadre need 5 years. The officer corps is monstrously top heavy yet the NCA cadre is not awash with 10 times more Masters than required. Which system works best?

ISTR that the US Army gets rid of the wannabe career thrusters if they haven't made half colonel by 40 and so filters the number of senior officers above that rank quite effectively. We keep promoting them and then have to invent more jobs for them!

[Pontius Navigator]

Medical branches of all three services have a high number of officers of Squadron Leader to Group Captain and other service equivalents as the pay scale equates to that of their civilian counterparts in the NHS.

Regards

Air pig

I thought this was about real officers?

[Pontius Navigator]

How about not promoting so many people? You only need 3 years seniority in rank to be promotable whereas the NCA cadre need 5 years. The officer corps is monstrously top heavy yet the NCA cadre is not awash with 10 times more Masters than required. Which system works best?

ISTR that the US Army gets rid of the wannabe career thrusters if they haven't made half colonel by 40 and so filters the number of senior officers above that rank quite effectively. We keep promoting them and then have to invent more jobs for them!

Hodgkinson started this back in about '68 when he said that too mant flt lt were not getting the opportunity for promotion as they were on the supplementary list, the single list was duly formed making some less equal than other with spec aircrew being skimmed off the top and 300 extra flt lt made up as overborne sqn ldrs.

The intention was that they would 'prove' themselves in senior flt lt non-established SO2 slots. Very soon they demanded 'real' jobs which immediately diluted the value of 'real' sqn ldrs.

On promotion or out, this applies to the USAF as well.

IIRC it also applied to the RN with its ppo lt cdrs who then retired early.

[Just This Once...]

On promotion or out, this applies to the USAF as well.

True but I know a good few in the USAF envy our Spec Aircrew / PAS system. Forcing every officer up the greasy pole does not always breed the people that we need.