1/3rd of LHR flights cancelled today

[Rollingthunder]

So much for snow preps. But I do like the excuses.

Today in Yellowknife you can throw a glass of water into the air and watch it fall as snow. Ops normal.

[Hotel Tango]

Yep, but in Yellowknife they see snow for a good 6 months of the year, every year. That makes the investment for good snow clearing equipment worthwhile. Additionally, it's nowhere near as large as LHR - so less area to clear and keep clear. Not making excuses for LHR's poor performances, but I don't think using Yellowknife is an entirely fair comparison.

[PAXboy]

I understand it to be:

1/3rd of LHR flights cancelled tommorrow

I sit to be corected.

[davidjohnson6]

A pre-planned cancellation of a third of all flights indicates a serious concern that Heathrow will not be able to support normal operations.

12 months ago, I recall the public relations people at BAA making a big fuss over the new investment in equipment to deal with snow and how it would keep their airports working whatever white powdery stuff may fall from the sky.

I'm sure the money means that Heathrow now has lots of big machines painted in birght colours that make very loud noises, have big flashing lights, and would make Jeremy Clarkson terribly excited.

May I ask however what that investment has purchased in terms of keeping runways open and flight operations normal ?

[compton3bravo]

TWO WORDS - JUST FARCICAL

[ManofMan]

I think you will find it's only minus 1 in Yellowknife, so throw up a cup of water and it would come back down as a cup of water.

And don't be comparing apples to oranges, Yellowknife gets 5 months of snow day in day out, they have the infrastructure to cope, the UK does not.

[Rollingthunder]

davidjohnson6 has it right.

Oks, Yellowknife was a week or two ago.

[Skipness One Echo]

Oh stop ranting good people it's so Daily Fail! The operation was under usual levels today partly due to snow elsewhere.

[kazzie]

Just think how many flights operate in and out of LHR a day. It's almost (or is)at full capacity no?

So when the snow falls heavy, Of course there are going to be delays for runway / taxiway / stand clearing. So cancelling in advance is maybe good prep as they will be limited on slots, plus less stranded passengers.

[pax britanica]

But it is justa very modest snowfall tonight . the sort than can happen most years here at 52 North but for some reason it is acceptable in Uk to allow disruption on such a large scale because its 'not economic'. Its an airport for xxxx sake it is supposed to be open almost all the time so planes can oeprate not to make money for the woners who along with successive governments have mismanaged the Airport itself and UK runway capcity toa stunning degree.

You cannot allow critical facilites to be utilised at 100% capacity because as has been pointed out once something goes awry the whole problem snowballs ( Hmmm)

I am astonished that after last year and the 'massive investment' and 'lessons will be learned' a very modest snowfall will again bring utter chaos. As it is weather we cannot easily blame the EU,the French,immigrants, the unions, benefit scroungers etc for it and of course it cannot be the fault of Governments of management can it so it must be 'unprecedented or once in a lifetime extreme conditions LoL once again?

[throw a dyce]

Forecast for Hay River and Yellowknife this Wednesday overnight is minus 37c.I'm sure that Buffalo Joe will fire up the DC3 and operate as normal.
Just imagine UKPLC SE England getting temperatures like that.It would be a national disaster,since a wee drop of snow brings total chaos.People in northern areas that are used to snow are just laughing now.

[ManofMan]

Throw a dyce

Do you know the difference between an apple and an orange ???

The reason Joe will fire up his old birds is because he is used to them kind of temps, we are not, why compare the two ?

[Skipness One Echo]

People in northern areas that are used to snow are just laughing now.

Funny thing, I grew up in a Northern Scottish-type area and aside from when I was a we'an, it didn't really properly snow for two decades afterwards on the west coast. We honestly and wrongly thought those days were behind us

[BALLSOUT]

Good God,all you jokers on about the DC 3's being able to fly in the snow at yellow knife. Regardless of the BA decision over tomorrows flying program, You are trying to compare a major international airport, operating large jet transport aircraft, with a backwater flying club. just stick to watching Ice pilots on sky.

[LN-KGL]

Skipness One Echo, I think trow a dyce ment real northerners like us. Here in Oslo we have had a rather cold day (started this morning with -17.5°C and is now only -12.9°C) and light snow. The operation at OSL today has been like a regular day with only one cancellation (KLM didn't come in with KL1151 from AMS on Friday evening and therefore no KL1140 this morning) and 79% punctuality (SAS and Norwegian was as normal better than the average with 86% and 84% respectively).

It is indeed funny to watch the flight radar with the airspace over London almost deserted. A number of aircraft circling over Stansted in hope an opening (many have already given up and deverted to Liverpool), a still open Gatwick, Ryanair circling over Leeds Bradford, EK20 departing 3 hours and 17 minutes late from MAN, ...

[Fairdealfrank]

Helps with the case for LHR expansion.....

[Rollingthunder]

YZF has limited resources but manages to keep ops going most days. You could give LHR 4 miles of plows and 2 miles of blowers and they would still cancel flights. Do folks remember the promises they made last year?

Spanish-owned operator BAA announced yesterday morning that 30 per cent of today’s flights from the world’s busiest airport – about 200 – would not take off to ‘minimise disruption to passengers’.
It means that the flights of up to 18,000 travellers could be cancelled or rescheduled as airlines scramble to adjust their flight plans. The decision was in stark contrast to airports across most of Europe where, despite arctic conditions, flights were due to take off as normal.

a newspaper


A bit of joke if not so sad.

[PAXboy]

Don't forge this (BBC)
Travel had already been disrupted across the whole of Europe - flights from Rome and Amsterdam's Schiphol airports to UK destinations, and Saturday morning flights to Amsterdam from Birmingham, Manchester and Heathrow were cancelled or delayed.

[throw a dyce]

Well I worked for over 25 years in ATC at the airport that probably gets the most snow in the UK,and our snow team was excellent.As minimal disruption as possible,and if we had more machines even less closures.
Oslo's team for clearing the ramp is more than we had for the whole airport,so if you have enough machines you can operate normally.
It just the end of the world stuff you hear from the south.It's called Winter,so deal with it,and stop saying ''We're not used to it''.Get some proper clothes and start shovelling.
Ps I'll go back to watching Ice Pilots.Funny how their runways always seem to be clear.:D

[MAN777]

Clear runways - no stands available

BA long haul fleet scattered all over Europe !:ugh:

So much for preparation this year

[READY MESSAGE]

Everyone seems to be getting in apart from BA. Oops.

[Charley B]

Have just realised that is still going on-what a shambles!Some are holding all over the uk at high levels as well!
That started happening about 07.30 i think as i noticed some had gone to Cardiff then and saw BA246 go to AMS!!
Bet they are not happy bunnies after a long flight!!

[Richard Taylor]

BA1303 ABZ-LHR looks like got as far as MAN, & is returning to ABZ.

[MAN777]

Can anyone at LHR fill us in on whats going on and why this is turning into another embarrassment for LHR

[ATNotts]

London clearly doesn't need any more airports, nor LHR another runway since the numpties that operate them can't keep what they've got at the moment open for business in a few centimetres of snow! (and snow, I might add, that has been forecast for nearly a week and arrived on a schedule that even Swiss Railways would be proud of)

[EGCA]

A bad weekend for UK land transport as well. Simon Calder on the BBC News this morning quoted a passenger from Singapore diverted to Prestwick as saying that it would take him longer to get from Prestwick to London by rail ( no replacement buses due to the state of the roads apparently) than it did to fly from Singapore. Not sure the Pax is absolutely right, but the WCML partial closure at Bletchley due to a freight loco derailment is not helping.

Incidentally, when you hear these stories of folk sleeping in their cars overnight on the M40 and M25, why is it that motorists just "have" to make the journey? Is everyone making a "necessary" trip, why dont people check the weather forecast and stay at home unless it is a life and death job? The met forecast was accurate in timing/location/amount, and Saturday is not a "commuter" day.

EGCA

[TCX69]

BA diverted flights so far!

JFK - CWL
BOM - CWL
MAA - CDG
DEL - GLA
HKG - PIK
MIA - SNN
DEN - SNN
DFW - SNN
GRU - AMS
YUL - AMS
PHL - AMS
BKK/SYD - AMS

Going to be some very unhappy passengers I expect!

[Charley B]

Another divert BA292 LAX heading south looks like going poss to Barcelona!
It did go there!

[pinhammond]

How on eatrh can Colin Matthews keep his job in the face of this complete shambles?

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

Incidentally, when you hear these stories of folk sleeping in their cars overnight on the M40 and M25, why is it that motorists just "have" to make the journey? Is everyone making a "necessary" trip ?
<rant>As someone who lives in the Chiltern Hills, not far from the steep bit of the M40, almost all of the problems with "closed roads", motorways or otherwise, are due to idiots who have absolutely no idea whatsoever of how to drive in these conditions, nor how to prepare their cars for this weather (and I don't mean snow-tyres, either -- worn-out batteries; insufficient anti-freeze, screenwash, de-icer, etc.).

Insulated and isolated from reality in their computer-controlled tin boxes, driving too fast or with no comprehension of the road conditions ("I don't need to care -- I've got traction control"), they skid to a halt blocking the road, or simply get stuck, thus blocking the road for those of us who do know how to drive safely in these conditions and thoroughly stuffing it up for everybody else. It only takes one or two selfish and thoughtless people to bring the M40 to a complete halt... :rolleyes:
</rant>

[EI-A330-300]

BA diverted flights so far!

JFK - CWL
BOM - CWL
MAA - CDG
DEL - GLA
HKG - PIK
MIA - SNN
DEN - SNN
DFW - SNN
GRU - AMS
YUL - AMS
PHL - AMS
BKK/SYD - AMS



IAD-SNN
ATL-SNN

All will be departing for LHR about now and the Denver flight left with the last while.

And 3 others into DUB (B747,767,777)

[EGCA]

RTFMike: I agree, preparedness in terms of what kit you carry, and how you drive, if you have to go out. Motorists interviewed on TV were saying that HGV drivers were culprits, driving too fast and then jacknifing. The RAC man on the news said he was amazed how he was being overtaken by motorists who "had" to try and drive at their "normal" speed, despite the conditions.
Over here in the West it is now thawing and the snow has pretty much gone. However....the Council is wasting my money, they have just been round gritting perfectly clear roads! (and the forecast here for tonight is for above zero temps).

[G-BHZO]

I'm just back from a local GA flight at PIK this morning. 3 x BA 777s and 1 BA 747 already there when I arrived, with another 747 on the Twr frequency 100 miles out asking to divert. Don't know where they were coming from (think it was BA098... was doing my power checks, so not paying full attention to other traffic on the radio). One 747 already moved to remote parking North side, so perhaps not expecting to be heading home imminently.

Quite a big crowd gathered on the bank beside the main taxiway with cameras... hope I didn't let myself down with my landings in front of an audience.

[JSCL]

G-EUPZ operating BAW5ZL (BA A319) en route from Zurich to LHR has just turned around... snow related I can only assume. Don't normally look at FlightRadar24, but when I'm expecting someone who's on that flight, I thought I would ^^

[nigel osborne]

MAN777

Bet MAN was cursing could have had a hatfull of LHR divs perhaps without the fog.

Nigel

[The96er]

MAN777

Bet MAN was cursing could have had a hatfull of LHR divs perhaps without the fog.

Nigel

Unlikely to have been the fog that was the issue. More likely that it was just a refusal on the airports part to accept them.

[Airbus_a321]

one single snow flake in the UK = chaos in UK airports - incredible UK :yuk:

[captain_flynn]

JSCL, according to flightradar24 it was an emergency..
Squawk 7700 (general emergency). G-EUPZ (British Airways A319) from Zurich to London

[pwalhx]

1 single snowflake - not where I am it brought a great dea of its mates with it

[PAXboy]

pinhammondHow on earth can Colin Matthews keep his job in the face of this complete shambles? Very easily, is the answer! If T5 did not unseat anyone at the top, this ain't going to. :hmm:

EGCA However....the Council is wasting my money, they have just been round gritting perfectly clear roads! (and the forecast here for tonight is for above zero temps).It's Cover Your @rse time. Remember what the papers will say if they don't and someone's moggy get's a broken leg ... :ugh:

[WHBM]

How on eatrh can Colin Matthews keep his job in the face of this complete shambles?
Quite so. And while we are at it, we can tell Ferrovial to take their "investment" and sell it on to someone more competent with a key UK national resource. They've been pushed out of Gatwick and Stansted by the regulatory authorities, now its time for Heathrow.

By 1800 Saturday, just as the snow (in all a few centimetres) STARTED, Heathrow went down to single runway ops, the south runway being closed. How can this be ? The majority of airports around the world are single (significant) runway, and in snow areas they just manage to carry on operating through all winter weather. Not close a main runway at the first snowflake !

[ramphawk]

WHBM - This is a pure guess, but single runway operations would be required whilst the other runway was being swept. Sweeping can start with very little snow visible on the runway. For any single runway airport the only option is to close for runway sweeping, the only question is for how long.

[WHBM]

Anybody see the pathetic responses by the Hon Member for Putney on the politics show this morning
Presumably the Putney Girlie was quite pleased about Heathrow being restricted, so she and the rest of her millionaire neighbours who live on West Hill in Wandsworth-Putney could enjoy their Sunday morning cocktail parties without any distant sound from those nasty aeroplanes approaching Heathrow containing the electorate.

[WHBM]

WHBM - This is a pure guess, but single runway operations would be required whilst the other runway was being swept. Sweeping can start with very little snow visible on the runway. For any single runway airport the only option is to close for runway sweeping, the only question is for how long.
I'm very familiar with single runway ops in snow, I just wonder why elsewhere they manage it without this disruption. I also wonder how BA (and all others) manage to operate quite OK off ploughed but snowy runways in Russia, in continuing snowfall, without dfficulty, but can't do it at Heathrow.

[Gonzo]

The problem with a dual runway airport is the timing of closing a runway for snow clearing.

If you leave it until the same point at which you'd be clearing a single runway airport, it's too late as the other runway will be too contaminated by the time you get to it.

You need to close the first runway earlier than you think to enable it to be cleared and ready to operate, which in turn enables you to close the other runway before the point at which it becomes unsafe and would close anyway.

With all the time buffers you need to build in, the point at which you start thinking that you should be closing the first runway, it's already too late!

.....and of course, at an airport which is scheduled to 99% capacity, you need to set the flow rate to anticipate the first closure by an hour or so to enable the flow to kick in.

It seems more like an art than a science.

WHBM, re Russia, it's different snow. Seriously. Dry, compacted snow is nothing like the usual UK slushy snow. From my understanding, flight crews are far happier to operate from runways contaminated by dry, compacted snow than slush.

[ramphawk]

It's a good question as to how airports can actually clear snow without any disruption to air transport movements where snow clearing is required. If an airport has the capability to plough / sweep and or blow snow in one pass of the runway, some critical factors in avoiding disruption would be aircraft spacing, rate of snow fall and sweeping speed.

As far as I am aware, some Scandinavian airports claim to never close, not never to suffer from disruption. I don't think anyone involved in snow clearing would take that kind of liberty with nature. Claiming to never close is already pushing your luck.

Many of our practices are down to culture. I can remember landing in a passenger jet with no fire cover present up in the arctic. This appeared to be culturally acceptable, given no medical facilities in the area either, but not elsewhere.

[WHBM]

WHBM, re Russia, it's different snow. Seriously. Dry, compacted snow is nothing like the usual UK slushy snow. From my understanding, flight crews are far happier to operate from runways contaminated by dry, compacted snow than slush.
Gonzo, these are some good points, but the thing about snow elsewhere being dry/powdery stuff is not altogether correct. Certainly it might be true today, when the temperatures in St Petersburg are around -20C with low humidity, but in the winter shoulders, in November and March, you get the same around-zero temperatures and snow conditions as here today.

[Pegpilot]

Surely the obvious comparison to assess Heathrow's performance is against Gatwick, Stansted and Luton through the same period. Anyone out there got the data ? Or indeed correct me if I am wrong for supposing those are valid comparators ?

[PAXboy]

This is taken from an article in The Independent Thousands grounded as 'snow plan' at Heathrow fails again - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/thousands-grounded-as-snow-plan-at-heathrow-fails-again-6579586.html)

After the December 2010 debacle, which cost airlines more than £50m and wrecked the travel plans of around one million people, the airport has invested heavily in new equipment. BAA has worked with airlines and air-traffic control authorities to formulate a new snow plan. In a statement yesterday, the airport said: "Our snow plan has worked far better than in previous years." :rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

Heathrow Airport prepared for 2011/2012 snowfall - YouTube

And

SNOW HOW - this is how you do it! - YouTube

Did a winter in Helsinki and they may hardly ever smile but they sure know how to shift snow. Think they used 15-20 miles slot in traffic to do a runway. I was very impressive watching 5 of everything going for it.

And gonzo is correct landing on a white strip in -20 with the approprate performance penalties is quite a suprising experence (certainly not a bad one). In fact our home based runway only got cleared when the glass ice built up to such an extent that the cutter thing that chops grooves into ICE couldn't deal with it. Only bum twitcher was getting to your car.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Rwy & taxiways fine Sun morning but not enough parking space at T5 - other terminals seemed to be operating OK.

:hmm:

[RAT 5]

Leaves on the runways? But then again this lack of preparation for winter is a UK thing. Winter tyres are so uncommon or even unheard of, even across the Pennines. Just plain daft. Even in Holland, not a mountain in sight, winter tyres are the norm. In Germany, if it is snowy, winter tyres are mandatory, and if you have an accident on summer tyres it is automatically a high % your fault. Common sense. Why do insurance companies not insist on winter tyres. I find it daft that they demand to be told if you change the spec of your car with winter tyres and charge you more.
The lack of ability to cope with winter at UK airports has been in place for my last 30 year flying. Unbelievable they have not learnt from previous cock ups. If this philosophy had applied to a/c design there would have been umpteen repetitive crashes. London wants to be the financial capital of EU, but no one can reach it by plane. Not the best advertisement. When will Uk wake up to winter?

[Heathrow Tower]

As has been alluded to, LHR had both runways and taxiways all cleared by 0700 on Sunday. Other airlines were operating. Not sure anything from BA landed after 0800, even though there were vacant stands cleared of snow in T5.

Of course, having departed aircraft for LHR, only to divert out, means lots of wasted slots that other airlines could have used!

[WHBM]

As has been alluded to, LHR had both runways and taxiways all cleared by 0700 on Sunday. Other airlines were operating. Not sure anything from BA landed after 0800, even though there were vacant stands cleared of snow in T5.

Of course, having departed aircraft for LHR, only to divert out, means lots of wasted slots that other airlines could have used!
HT :

The snow started around 1900 Saturday and stopped in the early hours. LHR is an H24 airport. The suppliers of the kit shown in the links from Helsinki above state on their website they "clear a 3,500m long runway in 10 minutes". Airport Equipment from Øveraasen Snow Removal Systems (http://www.overaasen.no/airport-equipment/) The first arrival is due in to LHR shortly after 0430 from Hong Kong. As I understand it they were even ground held in Hong Kong the previous evening because nobody thought there was any chance of LHR being prepared for them to get in on time.

I see that there was kit for runways and taxiways, which was eventually got going. What plan was there to clear the stands, which has been the key issue before ?

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Strikes me as too easy to take pot shots at LHR mgmt and compare LHR to other airports but that doesn't progress the debate - merely gives spectators an opportunity to vent. I find it hard to believe that the mgmt wake up each morning planning to do a bad job so what is it about the place that sees this issue reoccur?

So for my own education I've had a quick trawl through t'net & found:

EuroControl report for Dec 2011 lists Top-5 airports by Avg daily ATM as:
1. LFPG (CDG) - 650
2. EGLL (LHR) - 620
3. EDDF (FRA) - 617
4. LEMD (MAD) - 523
5. EHAM (AMS) - 522

LHR - 2 parallel rwys; busiest by total pax number
CDG - 4 parallel rwys; 2nd busiest by pax numbers
FRA - 4 rwys (3 parallel); 3rd busiest by pax numbers

So LHR has more pax per ATM & more ATM per rwy than the others. If it's true that they operate at 99+% capacity, seems reasonable to me that any restriction in ATM (eg poor wx) will have disproportinate impact than at other airfields. I imagine airlines need to make early decisions on flow rates which would explain the ground holds in APAC.

Second aspect is rather than kick the can down the road (again), who's got the solution? I suspect it's much harder to solve than blame...

Reason's model keeps me thinking too - were there failures or violations?

How do you operate the 2nd busiest airport in Europe on 2 rwy's when bad weather is imminent? Mind you, last Snow Day they shut for 3 (4?) days so this strikes me as an improvement.

Stats, damn stats... do my head in...knew there was a reason I didn't become an accountant!