Hello. Been reading a lot of posts, and most of them state that one is expected to live in shabby apartments, on polluted cities. From what I read, China is a place to make money, and forget that you are there in the mean time. Just wondering which cities/airlines would be more family friendly, given that, by the conditions many describe, it would fit a single person's life. I do not want to earn money and make my family live in a dump.

Commuting is not an option for me. If I move every one goes (wife, 6yo and 1yo children).

if you care about ur family do not move them to China.

Xiamen maybe?by the coast,many expats.

If you care about your kids, don't go to China.

Shenzhen might be worth a look, next door to Hong Kong with nice beaches and golf courses. Shekou area is popular with westerners.

Shenzhen Airlines operate from ZGSZ as do Jade Cargo (check if they're still operating).

Haikou/Sanya on Hainan island are less polluted but more isolated

Coastal is better than inland. An industrial city in the middle of the country with pollution and few English speakers is best left for the more adventurous.

if you care about ur family do not move them to China.
Exactly this.

Thanks for all the replies. Anyone with the same situation as me (wife and 2 small kids) currently living in China ?

Try Shanghai. I have expat friends working there and they and their kids love the place. Very modern and cosmopolitan, and where the English language is reasonably well received. The range of haute cuisine is simply staggering, if that appeals to you.

Shanghai is great.. Beijing is becoming better for families and Honky is fine

Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Sanya, Xiamen, and PEK. That would be about it, IMHO. I live in Sanya and it is a very nice place with NO expat facilities, but it is a nice place other than that. The rest have large expat communities and facilities, and are modern, comfortable places to live, even with families. International schools can be very expensive. I believe Shenzhen Airlines is now offering school subsidies. My opinion.

China is a better place that a lot of other contract options for families, at least for a couple of years.

Not a good place to bring family. I don't know how I would stay married if I brought my family over - they would not like it.

Good schools are expensive, easily USD $18,000 per year; lesser schools are of questionable quality. Dirty hospitals and clinics too.

Traffic is dangerous - there are no rules on Chinese streets. Today, in Xiamen, I saw an elderly man and a youngster nearly struck twice by inattentive an non-yielding drivers.

How do you teach the kids to not step in the spit, vomit, and other fluids on the sidewalks??

Work in China for the money, if you need it - but know it will cost you in health and longevity. It is only for the tough spirited!

go to china to work and earn money. don't expect it to be a nice place to raise the kids. unless you want them to talk with a very loud voice all the time, become rude, lose their manners, spit anywhere and everywhere they want. these traits are common to people in the mainland. you will have to be on your kids 100% of the time to prevent them from catching this "culture".

i agree, traffic will get you killed or maimed if you're lucky. heck, even the police who are supposed to impose the traffic laws will run you over.

read the news about food safety. there is NONE.

better bring you own portable pharmacy. there are fake medicines too. even from the local pharmacy.

Bom dia Companheiro,

If you intend to bring your Family to China you will miss South America for sure. The pollution is high, the companies give a damn about your family. They are interested in your labour, nothing else. Relation does not count then amongst Latinos, trust me. You might be a decent person and that is where you lost already out against Asia. You care and consider about your loved ones? (Commute no option !) that tell´s me enough. If you cannot stay where you are then look somewhere else, money pays bills and fills the plate but cannot buy you happyness and the satiesfaction the happy family and your real friends around can give you.

I commutet for almost 15 Years and landed a job recently around the corner. Now I sleep around 29 days in my own bed again, what a pleasure and people understand what I am saying too. If I ask for a "Copy" I get one and not a "Coffee", more to share if you like.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

Bom dia, meu amigo, obrigado pela informacao.

I thought pollution was not that widespread. Ok, it is not an environmentally oriented country, but I did not think it was that bad.. or is it ? My comparison is Sao Paulo. Any way to compare SP and China ?

About a company that does not give a damn about their employees.... I worked for TAM. Can any company surpass TAM regarding the way they treat their employees ? No respect, sudden and continuous changes in the schedule, etc...

Thanks for all of you who posted info here.

Any Chinese airline will make TAM look like a employee caring company.

I think that the perspectiva of some of us that have actually worked in Latin América is a little different because we know what a bad job is like:(

Then Dominican maybe you won't have a problem with 'extremely bad'- most of the Prc carriers.

There is a petition drawn up by a group of Brazilian pilots to fight a law that will allow foreign commercial pilots to work in Brazil. Presently, and most likely in the future, the exercise of the commercial pilot profession in Brazil is limited to people with Brazilian citizenship. This law is trying to change this situation and allow Brazilian companies to hire foreign pilots.

The petition against this bill already has 3715 signatures ... yes 3715!!!

Most of them certainly issued by Brazilian pilots, the same people who then come to occupy the places of local pilots, in other countries.

We should all think about it.

There is a petition drawn up by a group of Brazilian pilots to fight a law that will allow foreign commercial pilots to work in Brazil. Presently, and most likely in the future, the exercise of the commercial pilot profession in Brazil is limited to people with Brazilian citizenship. This law is trying to change this situation and allow Brazilian companies to hire foreign pilots.

The petition against this bill already has 3715 signatures ... yes 3715!!!

Most of them certainly issued by Brazilian pilots, the same people who then come to occupy the places of local pilots, in other countries.

We should all think about it.

I also heard about this dishonourable petition.
A big shame to all brazilian pilots...

I think the problem is bigger than that.

For a long time, we had experienced pilots unemployed. Right now, I am experienced and I am looking for one. So, it is not exactly like there are jobs laying around for anyone who wants to live in the shiny tropics. If things were easy, I would not be looking forward to go to China.

The problem, imo, is that the companies are using this to pressure pilots to maintain the 'status quo', or, in plain language, to keep treating us like sh@<hidden>

If there was a lack of pilots, I would not mind having foreign people flying here. But that is not exactly the case.

One should think about the big Brazilian expats. Why would they leave if the country is warm, women are beautiful and the beer is cold ? Because the working situation airline wise sucks. It should give something to think that TAM is the biggest airline in Brazil. I still think it is unbelievable that they joined Star Alliance. For me, TAM joining SA is like one getting the representation of Breitling and start selling fake watches.

Another thing to think about is WHO would come here, given so many Brazilians are not up to take the crap they are given.

So, I am not against foreign people. I just want that the market demands a number of pilots the country does not have, a situation that, today does not exist.

If conditions would get better here, you would see a flock of people returning.

I think the problem is bigger than that.

For a long time, we had experienced pilots unemployed. Right now, I am experienced and I am looking for one. So, it is not exactly like there are jobs laying around for anyone who wants to live in the shiny tropics. If things were easy, I would not be looking forward to go to China.

The problem, imo, is that the companies are using this to pressure pilots to maintain the 'status quo', or, in plain language, to keep treating us like sh@<hidden>

If there was a lack of pilots, I would not mind having foreign people flying here. But that is not exactly the case.

One should think about the big Brazilian expats. Why would they leave if the country is warm, women are beautiful and the beer is cold ? Because the working situation airline wise sucks. It should give something to think that TAM is the biggest airline in Brazil. I still think it is unbelievable that they joined Star Alliance. For me, TAM joining SA is like one getting the representation of Breitling and start selling fake watches.

Another thing to think about is WHO would come here, given so many Brazilians are not up to take the crap they are given.

So, I am not against foreign people. I just want that the market demands a number of pilots the country does not have, a situation that, today does not exist.

If conditions would get better here, you would see a flock of people returning.

Hi Cachorrao, think this way: do you have any idea of how many local pilots are unemployed at the moment in Spain, Italy, Portugal, UK, Hungary, Greece, Korea, India, etc, just to name a few? And do you have any idea of how many brazilian pilots are living and working in those countries? I can tell you: quite a lot! Just remember of what happened to VASP, Transbrasil and VARIG and those thousands of pilots who were unemployed.

So why such a shameless protectionism? During my career I've been flying with many brazilian pilots and I can tell you almost all of them were great professionals. And I never heard of such a thing of petitions to limit expats to live and work in any particular country. Just comply with the country rules and pre-requisites and you will be ok (no matter if you are Brazilian, american, russian, etc).

Once again, I consider this brazilian pilots initiative as unthinkable and quite selfish. So maybe the next time a brazilian pilots looks for a job outside Brazil who knows if he/she will find out some resistance to get that particular job...

Link to a video by one of the biggest Brazilian pilots union.

O SNA e a verdade sobre o PL-6716 - YouTube

I wish everybody could understant what they are saying, its completely unbelievable.

Hello, Busav8r;

The Brazilian pilots went to those places because there was a lack of labour by the time they arrived. This is not the case here. I am the living example of that. I would love to live and work in Australia, but the requirements I've seen this far are 'Catch 22' styled.

I doubt that I would get a job today in the countries you quoted. Actually, I would get amazed if I'd get the job in front of a national.

I have nothing against foreign people working here. I just want the market to need them first.

As you have yourself quoted, there is a number of us working abroad. Why ? Because of the BS we face here with our airlines. The only way to fight this is to have a shortage of labor, that would make the airlines improve their behaviour.

They are just trying to use foreign people at this stage to threaten us to shut up. That is why so many (including me) are against foreign people (at least at this time) working here.

It is not a biased opinion. I would go for a job abroad if it is necessary and interesting for me. I do not expect to get hired because they think I am cool or not. They will hire me (or not) depending on their need. Once the Chinese market has enough pilots, they will send the expats back. I do not see a problem with that.

Cachorrao,

The brazilian problem is not different from what it's happening in Spain and in Portugal (just to give you two good examples). This industry sucks, period. But I never saw such a shameless initiative as this one. For me this phenomenon is called "xenophobia".

And it is absolutely false that a national has priority over expats on those countries. Like I said before, as long as you comply with the pre-requisites you are good to go. Many experienced brazilian pilots got jobs in front of many nationals (including many air force pilots) on those countries.

Some years ago it was possible to see entire brazilian crews in the cockpit of certain companies, while many nationals were without a job, particularly young or less experienced pilots. Many local FOs had to wait several years for their promotions because of that. And so what? Like I said before, this industry sucks and there's nothing we can do about it.

The same was true with the helicopter market. Many nationals were unemployed while many Brazilian helicopter pilots (dozens of them) got "their" jobs.

Or do you think BS only happens in Brazilian companies? Jeez...
Go to China, India, Korea, ME, Europe and you will be surprised...

Today the market in Spain or Portugal may suck, but there was a time that it was booming, and that was the time where the pilots went. I remember TAM pilots going to Portugalia because of a lack of Portuguese ones. The planes had to fly. There were no pilots. Foreign work force necessary.

This is not the scenario today in Brazil. The fact that there are so many of us unwilling to come back, or someone like me who is seriously thinking about China, should say something.

We have our differences on the opinion about working here, but I would not call it xenophobia. Each country have their own regulations. I flew a lot to Madrid, and saw a lot of Brazilians being denied entry. There were some cases that were abusive, but in a lot of them Spain (and other EU countries) were deporting people that would be there illegally. That is the country's regulations. The same here about the hiring. If there would be a lack of working force, foreigners would be welcomed.

About the BS... When one goes to China to fly for one of those bootleg airlines, they know they have to cope with BS. It is a money-BS trade.

TAM is on Star Alliance. It is the flagship carrier. Yet, is managed like a back yard bus company.

Some protectionism is good. For example, had the US been protectionist for their internal market, China would not be as big as it is today, and they would not be facing depression.

This is a nice discussion, but I would like it to come back to living in China. Unfortunately, that is something I am looking forward for. And if I do, I will take my whole family. That should tell something for anyone considering working here.

Any experiences out there to share of life in Hong Kong? Again, two pre-school kids in the equation and no commuting contracts. Cheers G.

GIZMO. Go to the Fragrant Harbour forum.

This is a nice discussion, but I would like it to come back to living in China

Please dont, we dont like people like you anywhere.

It is all what you make of it here in China. It is a great culture and learning place here and a rich history and diverse society but also all the negative things you hear do exist. The best schools are relatively expensive but far cheaper than the middle East. If your airline will pay all or part then it helps considerably. Many Chinese carriers now offer some type of education allowance for kids. They have had to get competitive with what the Middle East is offering. There are some excellent Ex-Pat communities in most major cities and many thriving communities and jobs here as the economy expands. China has some great places to travel, see and tour and is also a good jumping off point to other Asian cities. Travel using ID 75/90 tickets is offered by most airlines but generally only on your particular airline. Jumpseating is available domestically but very difficult for International travel and only on your own airline. The pay in China now is one of the highest in the world but there are many many hurdles to land a job and keep and maintain a job in China. Some of these hurdles are Interview, Sim assessment, Chinese ATP. Initial type and recurrent checks, MEDICALS, family and personal situations among others. There is lots to offer and see and do while here but not for the inexperienced or unprepared.

Shameless proctecionism?? Check out in the US or in EU if you find any brazilian flying without a green card or EU passport. Thats almost the same. Get a brazilian passport and you are gonna be very welcome here in Brazil... May be you can marry to some of our beutiful women someday..

[QUOTE]Get a brazilian passport and you are gonna be very welcome here in Brazil[QUOTE]

So I just get a flight to Rio and get a passport. That's novel. I can think of about fifty million Somalis, Ethiopian, Afghans etc., right behind me.

It must be easy to get one in the UK, isn't it? I,d love to fly there...

I am thinking about getting a job in Haikou, but I can not find any schools there. Does anyone know of any international schools ? Thanks !

Haikou is not a great place for expats. There are very few there, in fact. It is much more like Vietnam, culturally. Weather is really poor most of the year. During the wet season there is a massive thunderstorm building over the city every day. You can use it as a navigation aid most of the time.

It was offered as a base for us at the airline I worked for. No one chose it. There will be no western health care facilities or schools.

Thanks again for you help. Now back to ground zero. My life looks like a Tetris game. All the pieces have to fit. Job, pollution, school, hospital and quarantine. Sometimes I miss the easiness of being single.

USMCProbe, Kunming is another place that I may go to. Any insider look on the place ? Thanks.

he latest food scandal in China - which has seen rat meat passed off as lamb - has raised more questions about food safety in the country.

It seems that barely a day goes by in China without news of yet another food safety scandal.

But the latest case - even by Chinese standards - was truly stomach-churning.

Hundreds of people were arrested after passing off rat meat as lamb.

Perhaps, unsurprisingly, the scandal has given rise to a round of stories about rodents.

I heard one anecdote about a restaurant in southern China that serves up rat meat dishes. Believe me these establishments do exist.

At this particular restaurant, the owners reassured the customers their rats had been caught in the countryside and not in the sewers.

Now, whether the story is true or not, it gives you a flavour of public concern over food safety.

When you eat at cheap restaurants - or roadside stalls for that matter - you are always left with that queasy feeling you may have consumed something you did not order.

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My wife recently had lunch at a restaurant and discovered a stone in her soup and then a piece of scrubbing brush in her main course. When I asked why she had not complained, she said she did not want to spoil the meal for her friends.

The irony is that people in China are now eating more than ever before but quality remains elusive.

Obesity, once unheard of, is now becoming an issue.

There has been the largest wave of migration in human history here: tens of millions of rural migrants have poured into the cities to fuel the country's remarkable economic growth.

The journey from the farms to the factories in the last couple of decades has given rise to a vast food supply chain catering for China's urban population.

But the food industry here is often filthy and even downright criminal.

Farmers drown vegetables in pesticides; businesses pump cattle full of steroids; and corrupt officials - after taking their cut - often certify questionable food as safe.

It is little wonder then that people are concerned.

One weekend I joined some city slickers who had become part-time farmers.

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The authorities know they need to deal with the simmering public anger over food safety”

The PR consultants, teachers and computer programmers juggled their iPhones and spades at an organic farm on the outskirts of the capital.

Glistening with sweat, they said their weekend workout was all about ensuring the quality of the produce.

For most people though a return to the land simply is not feasible.

So the Chinese middle class - along with many foreigners - buy their meat from Australia and milk from New Zealand.

With so much mistrust, those with the cash plump for trusted brands.

But if there is one issue that provokes anger here more than most it is formula baby milk.

Back in 2008 a scandal of stunning proportions unfolded in homes across the country.

Hundreds of thousands of babies became sick after drinking contaminated formula. Several of them died.

The authorities initially suppressed the scandal because they did not want bad news breaking before the Beijing Olympics.

Chuleyes - Haikou "should" have Int'l schools... My wife was based there and we still have an apartment there, said so... LOL

Kunming is a bigger city and should have a school as it's the capital Wunnan province. Never the lower level of pollution that HAK, but way cleaner than other cities in China.

At this point China will be my last option due to all the reasons stated here...

Thanks a lot, Jota. Will send you a PM about it.

Kunming?

You are probably looking at China Eastern or Lucky Air. I was a Lucky Air pilot for 6 months (not by choice). Long story.

For me Kunming is pretty good, China-wise. I am not sure for you if you have family and need schools. I can't answer yeah or nay. Google foreign consulates Kunming. If there are a lot of consulates there might be some schools/medical facilities.

I like the city. Fairly clean air, decent expat community. I would take it 10X over Haikou. But if you have family, I am not sure I would choose either.

Lucky Air should be a decent gig. Should. Not 100%.