View Full Version : Malev goes bust!


Mark in CA
3rd Feb 2012, 07:33
Hungary airline Malev stops operating, flights grounded | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/03/malev-stoppage-idUSL5E8D30E920120203?feedType=RSS&feedName=industrialsSector)



captplaystation
3rd Feb 2012, 08:34
If you are a Boeing rated pilot looking for work it is perhaps difficult to find the bright side to 180 + rated pilots being dumped on the market, so we perhaps don't all see it like you.

CY333
3rd Feb 2012, 08:38
<<nice>> to see people <<carrying>>:ugh: about a few hundred families left without income and 180 pilots on the run for jobs

Johnny F@rt Pants
3rd Feb 2012, 08:53
Whatever you think of the company, there's never justification in being pleased to see it go down the swanny, hundreds, nee thousands of people depend on it for their living, how can you ever show any pleasure in them having the rug pulled from under their feet.

If you'd had your job disappear in the blink of an eye, without your pay that you're due, and without much hope of getting another job in the same country, perhaps continent then I'm bloody certain you'd think twice before posting such a comment.

Sorry to those of you left high and dry, may better opportunities come your way, I know, I've been left high and dry previously.

Kwateow, go hide your head in shame.

RoyHudd
3rd Feb 2012, 08:53
Pity. Another piece of aviation history made. Not a good one.

The SSK
3rd Feb 2012, 09:02
Good riddance to another state-subsidised dinosaur.

They carried me on my most recent flight, Skopje - Budapest - Brussels.

Excellent service, BUD is (was) a great connecting point.

Even in the Tupolev era I can think of half a dozen flights I took with them - all above average service.

I do not share your opinion.

galdian
3rd Feb 2012, 09:15
Having been through a "no job tomorrow" situation I feel sorry for the position being felt by the pilots and their families - unless something extra-ordinary occurs things will be tough.
Without comment - Skymark Airlines Japan (B73-8) reckon they're looking/in need for 200 foreign Captains, at least 6 (probably more) agencies in the hunt (troll pilotpointer maybe) and entry/consideration minimums...well, minimum.

NOT for everyone - maybe a consideration for some.

olivermbs
3rd Feb 2012, 09:20
Seems they are flying all their 737s out to Shannon, anyone know why?

BOAC
3rd Feb 2012, 09:23
Leased from an Irish company?

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES
3rd Feb 2012, 09:27
Sad news for all! My best wishes to all affected. I hope you find something soon! Such a shame. The couple of times i used them i really enjoyed the experience.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
3rd Feb 2012, 09:28
Sad news. Worked with the crews for many years and they were good.

swish266
3rd Feb 2012, 09:29
The stoppage comes after the airline was ordered by the European Commission last month to repay millions of dollars worth of state aid received between 2007 and 2010.

Push to talk
3rd Feb 2012, 09:30
@<hidden> olivermbs,

This is where the lease company will have them stored, serviced, repainted and ready for sale to a new owner.

Too bad for Hungary and the Malev pilots, I feel for them. They will find new jobs, but it wont be at their hometown anymore.
I can only give them one advice; whatever job you take, stay away from the Irish blue, white and yellow coloured lot that exploit people for a living as you will regret working there. ;)

No reduced size re-start of Malev possible with a certain number of their pilots?

IB4138
3rd Feb 2012, 09:36
All the Boeings are "Q8" designated on the model number, which indicates they are probably leased from ILFC, at least that is who they were ordered by/initially delivered to.

CaptainProp
3rd Feb 2012, 09:47
Next easyjet base? Having said that they have never been able (in the past anyway) to act fast enough when these opportunities have come up. Ryanair? Wizz expansion? Did not Air Berlin have too many aircraft / crew? Seems to be a good place to throw in a few....?

Travelman Africa
3rd Feb 2012, 09:48
17 aircraft with Spanair and a bunch with Malev oops

swish266
3rd Feb 2012, 09:54
Not with this SH Orban in charge there, and all the red tape...

balaton
3rd Feb 2012, 10:17
For those (few) who celebrate:
I'm sitting in my office (not Malev) with a friend of mine, a young Malev captain who was scheduled to LEMD today. His 3 year old bright son is running to and fro in the foyer... We can hardly say a world.. just staring at each other...

truckflyer
3rd Feb 2012, 10:32
Nothing to celebrate! Another sad day for aviation.

I am looking for work, having another company go belly up does not make any pleasure or happiness for anybody, I am astonished by some cold heartless comments, would certainly not want those people as a part of my crew!

kotakota
3rd Feb 2012, 10:33
Will Cyprus be forced to pay back too ?

Eff Oh
3rd Feb 2012, 10:35
I was in a similar position two years ago. I wish all Malev employees all the very best of luck. It is a horrible situation to be in. There are jobs out there, no doubt, but unfortunately it may be a while before you can get back home. It seems to be the way of the industry just now. I know it will seem hard to see at the moment, but the sun will shine again. Good luck.

de facto
3rd Feb 2012, 10:41
For those (few) who celebrate:
I'm sitting in my office (not Malev) with a friend of mine, a young Malev captain who was scheduled to LEMD today. His 3 year old bright son is running to and fro in the foyer... We can hardly say a world.. just staring at each other...
b


Ok,well tell him there are jobs outside of his country and being young will be on his side,paid schooling for his kid also.
So stop staring at eachother and tell him to get his log book stamped/a reference letter and get malev photocopy machine running while its still there.

Good luck!:)

balaton
3rd Feb 2012, 10:57
Sure, Sure. Just the first shock...
Many thanks anyway.

PCTool
3rd Feb 2012, 11:12
I flew with them a few times; very professional airline. There is nothing to celebrate here. Terrible news for the airline, their customers and of course the country of Hungary.

Push to talk
3rd Feb 2012, 12:04
It can be wise to let an airline go bust if it has large debts, as Malev did. Then you can start new with a clean sheet for the future. Is this not the case here? As I just heard that the Hungarian government has stated that it has hopes Malev will make re-start. This might have been just a clever way to get out of paying back the state aid Malev received and clear all debts.

I really hope for all the people involved a re-start will be possible. I have been involved in a bankruptcy myself before and it is far from nice. Good luck to all there in Malev.

pee
3rd Feb 2012, 12:19
As I just heard that the Hungarian government has stated that it hopes Malev will make re-start. This might be a clever way to get out of paying back the state aid Malev received.
But is it really the proper way of dealing with these inefficient airlines? Do we need to have the "national" carriers everywhere? When the old debts become wiped out, the new airline to be considered soon after? As a national one, it would surely have some key positions (posts, payroll items) arranged for state VIPs and all kind of "important" politicians. What for? Is Europe still doomed to have the "national" airlines nowadays?

truckflyer
3rd Feb 2012, 12:23
Didn't this happen in Switerland and Italy in the past?

Even SAS, would have gone belly up, if the countries had not bailed them out!

yippy ki yay
3rd Feb 2012, 12:32
Next easyjet base? Having said that they have never been able (in the past anyway) to act fast enough when these opportunities have come up. Ryanair? Wizz expansion? Did not Air Berlin have too many aircraft / crew? Seems to be a good place to throw in a few....?

Ryanair are basing 4 aircraft there from 17th Feb it would appear...

wheelbarrow
3rd Feb 2012, 12:32
Market News (http://www.ise.ie/app/announcementDetails.aspx?ID=11105560)


There will be plenty of jobs.

captplaystation
3rd Feb 2012, 12:44
I always thought vultures were heavy, unwieldy, slow moving birds.

Seems the "greater yellow/blue Irish Vulture" is from a different gene pool, although from the sounds of things on that press release it has been sitting on a nearby tree biding its time.

Should bring a few jobs, but , amongst the ex-Malev staff, who is going to enjoy them ?

Oh well, any port in a storm.

beernice
3rd Feb 2012, 14:24
To all the Maliv guys thinking of joining Ryanair.
They are desperate for captains. Come summer they will not be able to cover the roster.
Negociate as a group, look for a Ryanair contract. Demand a base in Budapest, Ryanair will not want to base all of you in Hungrey, they will want to split you up, part of their divide and conquer policy.Read any contract very very closely, it is essential that you get an English speaking lawyer to come with you. Do not believe what you are told, only believe what they are prepared to but in writing. They need you more than you need them right now, do not rush into a bad deal. Stick together!!!

Jagohu
3rd Feb 2012, 15:59
Don't forget about all the other personel as well, there were not only pilots... Mechanics, etc... There's plenty of them and despite the fact that they were not officially fired yet, they have little to hope for now that all the airplanes leave for the leasing company's bases...
Any suggestion where should they try their luck?

It's interesting that in this case (that Malev went bust) the Hungarian state will not have to pay the penalty to the European Commission due to the support of the airline in the past that was deemed not in line with EU policies... Go figure who's interest was it the most...

cldrvr
3rd Feb 2012, 16:19
It is about time these heavily subsidised "companies" are taken to task. There are a few more to get rid of. Yes it is tough for the guys and girls working there but it is better for the industry as a whole. There will only be lean and mean airlines left that can compete on a global scale, this is only good for the long term future of the sector.

As always plenty of Ryanair bashing here, at least they make money and they will be here for a long time to come.

captplaystation
3rd Feb 2012, 16:20
Yep, was thinking myself that it "died" in a rather dignified, premeditated fashion , been expected for at least a week. Useful indeed to avoid some looming "costs".

When something doesn't smell right. . . well you know the saying, looks like, smells like, probably is.


Edited to say, most of the Ryanair "bashing" is rather in the form of warnings to those perhaps about to partake of the Irish punt, to see both sides of the coin. If you had the pleasure to work for our Mr O' Leary you would understand the wisdom of that.

Strangely enough, I fail to see why cutting everything down to rock bottom benefits anyone other than the shareholders in companies like Ryanair, except in the short term it takes to achieve their ultimate goal. . . which is,
once Micky has seen the last dinosaur fall, & has stopped making most of his money selling 6 year old Boeings for more than he paid for them, as future expansion has stalled due to European financial meltdown, do you really foresee that he will continue to sell you tickets for tuppence halfpenny any more ? or can't you see where this will end up ? Rising air fares, crummy service, crummy working conditions, & still big profits, where do you, the customer, or me, the employee, benefit here in the long term. Think Wallmart.

The industry, both from an employment, & customer experience point of view, has been "changed" irrevocably due to Ryan /Easy/Wizz.
Whether it has been "improved" ( & whether it could/should be in a different fashion in the future) is a discussion that is too long for this thread.
Anyone employed in aviation can see, every legacy carrier that founders is merely another nail in the coffin for decent T's & C's.
Anyone celebrating it, cannot see the wood for the trees, or is looking in from the outside & therefore doesn't really have a dog in this fight.

Black Pudding
3rd Feb 2012, 16:24
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Finals19
3rd Feb 2012, 16:34
There will be plenty of jobs.

Unfortunately you are not about to get rescued. You are about to get bent over and rogered MOL style. Despite the rhetoric, this smacks of the usual exploitation that is synonymous with a certain Irish operator.

I would be very surprised if there is a genuine "no fee" open door invite to DEC's and current TR'd guys. Is this not about a fresh supply of work for current RYR guys and new fATPL's who are waiting to pay? I fear that the poor Malev pilots won't get a look in (or ops, ground, engineering etc etc).

All very distasteful as usual and the typical wolf-in-sheep's clothing scenario that is turning this industry into the cesspool it is rapidly becoming.

:(

stuckgear
3rd Feb 2012, 16:56
The industry, both from an employment, & customer experience point of view, has been "changed" irrevocably due to Ryan /Easy/Wizz.



I would add to that Cptplaystation, that EU actions have also changed the inudstry 'irrevocably'. EASA is mess and over regulates in some areas, yet in others, like the FTL's under regulates. it's like a propsal to do the largest amount of damage to the industry it can with regulation.

I won't even begin to mention the EU-ETS.

Then the EU, sees fit to provide taxpayer cash in the form of subsidies to Ryanair, making it a harder environment for other carriers (meanwhile FR drives a race to the bottom for T&C's and other airlines follow in order to remain competetive without such subsidies:

French newspapers recently cited figures ranging between €35 million for France alone, and €660 million across the EU, as the value to Ryanair of the subsidies it receives


Air Berlin's Head of Operations for Spain and Portugal has hit out at the subsidies granted by the various regional authorities to Ryanair, which he says "eliminates competition and pomotes blackmail."


etc etc ad nauseum.

The whole of the EU, for aircraft operators is going to hell in a handcart, as AoC's get terminated, and there will be more, it remains an unattractive region for anyone to enter into the market with margins and yields cut to the bone and ever increasing requirements, i can't see any reason why investment capital (if there was any in the EU market place anyway) would contend with the market.

And the lack of capital funding, due to the debt problems of the EU makes the market place even harder still.

Until politicians actually promote and support the industry rather than take punitive action against it we will continue to watch our industry decend further into the gutter, possibly even down the drain. To the detriment of locval, regional and national economies as well the jobs it provides both directly and indirectly.

Clandestino
3rd Feb 2012, 17:15
Very nicely put, captplaystation.

Anyone employed in aviation can see, every legacy carrier that founders is merely another nail in the coffin for decent T's & C's.
Anyone celebrating it, cannot see the wood for the trees, or is looking in from the outside & therefore doesn't really have a dog in this fight.
Alternative explanation: they see the wood very well, they are looking at it from the inside, just not form the cockpit but rather from some mgmt office, and really do have a dog in this fight.

Not everyone posting on this forum are professional pilots... even if they claim so.

Didn't this happen in Switerland and Italy in the past?Greece too but then it was expected and preparations were made, which doesn't seem to be the case in Hungary. I hope I got it wrong.

Sok szerencsét kivánok!

timmermc
3rd Feb 2012, 18:24
Sad news, for all the family's involved. Another good airline, crews and all who was involved disappears in to history.

kbrockman
3rd Feb 2012, 18:33
Wizz is basing 2 extra A320's @<hidden> Budapest starting next week already, plans for 2 more a litle after that, investing an extra 37 million € in BUD.
Ryanair 31 new routes from Budapest.
charleroi and Eindhoven to get at least 10-15 extra flights to and from Budapest
from Wizz and ryanair alone.

This is gonna be a real gloves of boxing match.

captplaystation
3rd Feb 2012, 19:16
Remembering that Malev had 18 737's & 4 Q 400's there should be plenty of bones to pick over without resorting to boxing matches, given that both parties are talking about 4 aircraft apiece.

Wizz were already there, the company is from there ! but no doubt Ryanair will have a point to prove. Depends of course on whether the Govt/Airport choose to give them a "sweet" deal, or do the sensible thing & support their local company.
The caveat to any aircraft from FR going there is, I believe, a "sweet" deal (as usual) Wouldn't be surprised if this just vanishes in a puff of Scotch (make that Irish) Mist, but then again, with 80 airframes lying idle for Winter, I guess they can afford to give it a punt.

Callsign Kilo
3rd Feb 2012, 21:20
Anyone suspect a Brookfield/Ryanair "How low will you go" hourly rate to ensure a BUD base position? Am I being too cynical? 5/3 is a certainty, maybe a 5/2? A liability clause for using too much deicng fluid?? (tounge in cheek) They will make no qualms about suggesting that they have you over a barrell. It's whether you actually believe them? Goodluck to the ex-Malev crews

Liffy 1M
3rd Feb 2012, 21:45
Fifteen of the 737s are being ferried BUD-SNN this evening, still with Malev flight numbers and crews.

Hussar 54
3rd Feb 2012, 21:59
A bad week for all of the people involved....

I have a very, very good friend inside Malev - I can only wish him and his family every last ounce of luck for the future....

But let's not get confused....

Spanair closed down because the Catalan Government pulled the plug....The owners/backers made a business decision as they have a right to do in any business

But Malev's demise is because of nonsensical rules introduced by the faceless, unknown, unelected, gravy swilling politicos in Brussels...

I've said it before here on PPrune, especially during the Alitalia crisis, but if Hungarian taxpayers are happy to have their own, elected Government continue to hand over some of their taxes to support Malev, what the :mad: has it got to do with non-Hungarians in Brussels ??

One day, one day, the whole of Europe outside of France and Germany will have no choice but to say " Enough's enough with the whole bloody nightmare that is Brussels "

GERRY MARTIN
3rd Feb 2012, 22:12
And so say all of us - the sooner we leave Brussels the better for us all.:ugh:

Lazy skip
3rd Feb 2012, 22:48
Some of the best pilots I've ever had the pleasure to fly with were from Malev, true professionals, extremely friendly guys they made me discover their fantastic nation and capital,when the Red bull air race was on, and they were flying the 737 low over the Danube between the Chain bridge and Parliament.
For what is worth this is how I will remember Malev.
For the rest, you know, dictators go along with dictators....

kontrolor
3rd Feb 2012, 23:07
This stinks - the blue-yellow airline will be ready to take over in two weeks...TWO WEEKS! I didn't know that setting up a base of ops was such an easy task...isn't it strange, how some things like request for payback of subsidy and arrival of the vulture airline are so close together?

Jagohu
4th Feb 2012, 05:10
Just think along the lines - what is it called "rescue operation" by RYR if not the long-awaited offensive against Wizzair?
Finally they can get into one of the Wizz bases (and be welcome there!) and start to operate the SAME routes (BUD-EHN, BUD-CRL, etc.) like Wizz - for sure on an initially lower price, but then... Guess what...

Don't get me wrong I do support competition and in general I have no problems with RYR, but I hope Wizzair will stay in the business for long beside them.

Also - since Malev is bust the Hungarian government (of which you've heard more than enough lately, I'm sure) doesn't have to PAY the penalties to the European Commission due to the support of Malev (and we talk about some big bucks here) - so - just think - we had a national airline with the government as major shareholder... They probably said: to the heck with it, we can spare some money by putting it down, we don't have to support it and we don't have to pay the penalty to the EC - win-win for them, but as normal they don't give a shit about the people involved.
It's not the fact that Malev went bust, it's the way it did. Oh, and for those of you who don't know, the head of Wizzair was a Malev CEO once upon a time - he has managed to get down the annual losses by 60 percent in one year and he got fired - then he went and founded Wizzair...

crewmeal
4th Feb 2012, 05:22
There are plenty of FR 737's parked up at BHX for the winter (even though they being used in rotation). Perhaps they'll be positioned out to BUD in the coming days.

black kettle
4th Feb 2012, 07:27
Sorry Hussar 54,but I don't understand your theory/complaint.Regardless of EU legislation,any airline which receives state aid to stay alive is "competing" unfairly with airlines not in such a favoured position.It should probably be outlawed under worldwide regulation.May be different for a purely internal airline,but it makes for a not level playing field for international competitors,maybe even sharing identical routes.

oldchina
4th Feb 2012, 08:26
I don't love the European Commission any more than the rest of you, but the rules are in place to ensure free and open competition.

Those who don't like the system can go and live in N Korea. The rest of us accept that well-run businesses will thrive and badly run businesses will fail.

Malev was hardly ever run as a business at all. Even after the soviet era ended its management would will still jump when its incompetent political masters said jump. It never made an aircraft selection decision on its own, fairly and openly.

Some guys here don't realise that the aviation world doesn't need Malev any more than it needed Olympic. The pax will continue to fly.

corsair
4th Feb 2012, 08:41
Sad to see another name disappear. But once again this reinforces the idea that airline business is just that, a business. Say what you like about Ryanair but that's first and foremost what they're about and there's plenty of business to be had out there. The way some people are talking, you'd think MOL pulled the trigger on Malev but it was suicide.

Any airline that fails to understand this reality is doomed to follow Malev into history.

757_Driver
4th Feb 2012, 08:41
I don't love the European Commission any more than the rest of you, but the rules are in place to ensure free and open competition.

Thats the best joke I've heard all week. Nice one.

Oh sorry.. you were serious?!

I guess the EU ministry of propoganda has done its job well then.

captjns
4th Feb 2012, 09:00
While FR is not the most employee friendly organization, at least some will still be able to put food on the table, and pay the mortgage. Is that good:) or bad:{?

Fortunately, there are opportunties for 737 skippers from the Middle to the Far East. Not such great news for cabin crew however, I guess.

Good luck to all.

His dudeness
4th Feb 2012, 09:17
It is about time these heavily subsidised "companies" are taken to task. There are a few more to get rid of. Yes it is tough for the guys and girls working there but it is better for the industry as a whole. There will only be lean and mean airlines left that can compete on a global scale, this is only good for the long term future of the sector.

As always plenty of Ryanair bashing here, at least they make money and they will be here for a long time to come.

If you honestly think Ryanair does not get any subsidies and hasn't gotten them in the past, then you are sadly mistaken.

black kettle
4th Feb 2012, 10:59
His Dudeness

The difference is fundamental.Most FR subsidies are from airports or regional authorities trying to get flights where there may well otherwise be none,and to a successful,rather than eternally loss making outfit.Rather different to a national government trying to prop up an airline despite EC rules totally forbidding it,and where there are perhaps plenty of profitable operators to step in without tax payers money being wasted.

main_dog
4th Feb 2012, 12:02
Most FR subsidies are from airports or regional authorities

Getting OT here, but in Italy (and most other places) all of those airports/regional authorities are, of course, funded by the taxpayer... you say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe :}

racedo
4th Feb 2012, 13:23
This stinks - the blue-yellow airline will be ready to take over in two weeks...TWO WEEKS! I didn't know that setting up a base of ops was such an easy task...isn't it strange, how some things like request for payback of subsidy and arrival of the vulture airline are so close together?

FR announced 2 weeks ago that it was starting services from Bud so you can pretty much guaratee that they had already had discussions with Bud Airport authorities and discussed route opportunities going back months.

The Malev issue relating to EU was announced on January 9th so not sure how you can suggest its quick.......the dogs in the street knew months ago that this was a strong possibility that this would be EU decision.

The fact they can move quickly means quite a bit of planning for eventualities like this but think you will find other airlines would also have been doing the same thing.

crewmeal
4th Feb 2012, 13:41
MOL will be rubbing his hands with glee at the thought of a carrier, especially a national carrier going down. He will be sending in his army of minions to take over the whole operation and no doubt get better rates than Malev did. This is the way he works sadly!

The Ancient Geek
4th Feb 2012, 14:09
He negotiates reduced landing fees, the airport makes more money from selling the food & drink that he does not provide on the flight to more passengers than they had before.
Both sides win.

Most airports make most of their money nowadays from selling stuff to the passengers who have to check in earlier due to the security circus and then sit around for 2 hours with nothing to do but spend money.

J.O.
4th Feb 2012, 16:44
Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.

no sponsor
4th Feb 2012, 17:05
There will be no jobs for the F/Os at Ryanair from Malev. Experience counts for nothing in the modern world of LCCs.

Having been out of work as an experienced F/O, and being up against the cadets, it is a depressing outlook. Unfortunately, you will have to go out of Europe for work. Still, even that must be better than taking it up the ass by joining Wizz or RYR.

racedo
4th Feb 2012, 17:09
Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.

If other airlines deliver the same number of passengers then they will.

captplaystation
4th Feb 2012, 17:57
Two Fridays, two airline closures, they say bad things happen in threes, so, who do we reckon is going to shut up shop on Friday 10th Feb 2012 ?

stator vane
4th Feb 2012, 18:15
which airline closed last week?

cheers!

Mercenary Pilot
4th Feb 2012, 18:40
Spanair.

----

captjns
5th Feb 2012, 07:16
Unless every other carrier is given the same concessions that Ryanair gets, it is still a subsidy and is anti-competitive.

What makes you think that other carrires don't enjoy the same concessions?

stuckgear
5th Feb 2012, 07:37
What makes you think that other carrires don't enjoy the same concessions?



German carriers win right to challenge Ryanair over subsidies.


airberlin and Lufthansa win right to challenge Ryanair over alleged subsidies


Ryanair today vowed to launch an appeal against an EU decision ordering the Irish discount airline to repay subsidies it received at Charleroi

Air France is angry at low-cost Irish carrier Ryanair which it said is getting unfair subsidies from European regional governments
French city scraps subsidies to 'blackmailing' Ryanair. A French city said Wednesday it was ending the subsidies it pays Ryanair to maintain flights there
Ryanair received a subsidy from the Balearic Government
several courts have already brought up the matter of Ryanair's subsidies, namely in Spain, France, Germany and Italy
Ryanair Returns to Girona and Reus, Spanish Taxpayers to Thank

All are from industry industry press items.

AN2 Driver
5th Feb 2012, 07:46
Well, Malev was shot down by Brussels because it was subsidized, which they consider illegal. Yet, Malev was important for Hungary as a flag carrier and ensured that Hungary was connected by public transport with most European cities.

So why is it legal then that FR and others are getting paid to fly routes which would otherwise be not economically viable? Just because it is important that these cities are connected to others for the local governments?

What the hell is the difference?

Either you want market only and are prepared to see hundreds of flight connections stopped, because they could not live out of their own. OR, you want these connections and then subsidies need to be part of the game.

You can't have it both ways.

How about running public transport like trains this way? you'd end up with lots of villages, cities and others without any connection to the outside world. So trains and other public transport is subsidized and nobody really opposes this because without it, there would be no coverage worth mentioning and you'd end up with ghetto cities and ghost villages all over the place.

So why the hell should a country not be allowed to have a state run and subsidized flag carrier if it so decides?

Or wait, under the new hegemonial rule of the Brussels figureheads, there are no countries anymore, just European provinces? And is it a coincidence, that one of those provinces has a non grata prime minister at the very time that it's flag carrier has the rug pulled from below it?

Malev was serving major cities and connections. Ryan and Wizz will serve their typical "proximity" airports anywhere within 100 miles from those cities. They are no replacement for what Malev used to do. And they do get paid subsidies just as Malev did, but under the different name of local incentive payments or whatever it's called when a region pais them to fly to airports the large carriers won't touch.

The LCCs and their subsidized low cost airports have their reason of being. But so do flag carriers in countries which otherwise become even more isolated and ready for the big take over.

Somehow I hope that Hungary will succeed in rising a sucessor out of the ashes like Bulgaria did when Balkan went bust after a corruption ridden privatisation scandal. Bulgaria Air is doing fine these days, despite Wizz and Ryan giving some money to Plovdiv and the other airports on the side.

black kettle
5th Feb 2012, 08:14
Stuckgear

As every one of your examples has to do with FR,do you have some prejudice against them?
There IS a difference between national governments pumping money into eternally loss making airlines and local authorities attracting successful airlines to their locality which may,at least,create jobs and,in some cases,massively increase tourism to the area.
...........and AN2,have you forgotten Sabena,Alitalia,Swissair etc?All bloated airlines with over-optimistic route structures and lo-costs weren't even on the sidelines at most airports.Two were in EEC founding countries,whereas this thread is being made to appear as though it's an anti -Eastern Europe thing.
I have Hungarian relatives and I believe most are astonished,with the country on it's knees and massive personal taxation,Malev lasted this long.

AN2 Driver
5th Feb 2012, 08:43
have you forgotten Sabena,Alitalia,Swissair

As a former Swissair employee, I certainly did not forget Swissair and how it's end came about. And the pressure the EU exercised against the non-EU Swiss government which lead to them letting it go down. And the fact that the re-emerged successful carrier was sold for peanuts to Germany, where it's the cash cow for it's mother now.

The impact this scandal and the way it was dealt with had on our country is felt until today. Whatever trust I had in the country ended that day. It has never been restored and Switzerland has been on the decline since. Looking at the renewed attacks on our sovereignity in recent months, the country's failure to back Swissair will at some stage be remembered as the beginning of the end.

Swissair failed because of an ill conceived expansion plan, not because it was internally weak or unprofitable. Swissair failed, because it's parent company severely misjudged the risks and badly executed the take overs of namely Sabena and AOM. Not because it was a bad product.

Ever since this happened, this country's self confidence has all but disappeared. It will probably end one day by Anschluss to the EU, something which politicians here crave for since a long time. It all started with the end of one of the most respected airlines of the world.

Tell me. If British Airways or Air France would ever fold, do you think that any government under which this happens would survive this? No way. Likewise with Lufthansa, who btw is doing EXACTLY the same thing now then what Swissair's Hunter Strategy was about with high success. Could a German government survive a bancruptcy of Lufthansa? Never.

You mention Alitalia. If the same criteria would have been applied to it as it has been to Malev, Alitalia would have been gone YEARS ago. It is still there.

A country whose flag carrier disappears has to a large extent lost it's national identity and it's representation in the world. Hungary better consider this and see that they re-start something else which deserves to carry their flag. Otherwise, they might well pull the flag of their parliament building as well.

kwateow
5th Feb 2012, 09:05
Anyone who talks about there being flag carriers in the EU is living 20 years in the past.
In your mind, then, what's the flag carrier of Ireland, Aer Lingus or Ryanair?

I agree with some of your reasons for the demise of Swissair, but you forgot to mention the years of operating long haul (subsidised?) services out of Geneva: a questionable business strategy.

His dudeness
5th Feb 2012, 09:28
Black kettle,
The difference is fundamental.Most FR subsidies are from airports or regional authorities trying to get flights where there may well otherwise be none,and to a successful,rather than eternally loss making outfit.Rather different to a national government trying to prop up an airline despite EC rules totally forbidding it,and where there are perhaps plenty of profitable operators to step in without tax payers money being wasted.

I don´t agree with you. Money comes to the company,neither MOL nor any other CEO will care about where it origins. MOL has shown time and again how loyal and dependent a business partner he is. RYR and its likes competes a lot with the 'normal' carriers and the well payed jobs that pay a lot into social security and the tax system going down the drain put the cost of the LCCs to public up again.

The real issue is, that these things are not considered when making the comparison. Any sane airport management/local politician honestly thinking he will gain from RYR when complying to their condititions is dead wrong. If they would, MOL would have invented the perpetuum mobile. I think he is a smart dude, but not that smart....

main_dog
5th Feb 2012, 10:00
There IS a difference between national governments pumping money into eternally loss making airlines and local authorities attracting successful airlines to their locality which may,at least,create jobs and,in some cases,massively increase tourism to the area.

In one case, taxpayer money flows from a central government to prop up legacy carriers, in order to maintain employment/tourism/national pride.

In the other case, taxpayer money flows from regional governments to regional airports to subsidise low-cost carriers coming in order to create employment/tourism.

I can't see any "fundamental", or moral difference.

stuckgear
5th Feb 2012, 11:05
black kettle,

As every one of your examples has to do with FR,do you have some prejudice against them?



Nope. FR is by and large a successful business model and that has to be applauded, it has however had detrimental impacts in the industry. They provide income to many flight crews but have also set a standard that sees T&C's lowered.

I am no lover of FR, I am no hater of FR.

FR is a large player of the EU subsidy game and that was why those examples were given. If you are attempting to imply an open bias from myself against FR, you are looking for monsters under the bed .

:=:=

main_dog
5th Feb 2012, 12:07
:D

Well said Stuckgear, one of the most balanced posts on Ryanair I've seen. I could add that the FR business model doesn't necessarily require the animosity and general disagreeable attitude (towards both pax AND crew) we associate with O'Leary's company. It could be the best place to work in Europe (and one of the best-paying) just as Southwest, the first LCC, is probably the best place to work as a pilot in the US.

But THAT would take real management skills, not just the killer shark instinct MOL possesses.

stuckgear
5th Feb 2012, 16:26
main dog,

thank you. FR does exactly what it says on the tin. and no one should expect more or less from them from providing what they do.

O'Leary, love him or hate him, is from an accountancy background (KPMG, IIRCC), so no one should be surprised otherwise if he runs the operation purely on figures and numbers.

As such, he is highly in tune of what subsidies he is able to leverage from the EU to help his bottom line. Can anyone decry O'Leary for that ? No. He is doing what is best for his P&L statements.

Any issues, conflicts, problems etc. with subsidies lies with the EU, the and if the EU wish to subsidise, one airline, not another that is their failing.

The operational environment for carriers in the EU is a farce, and that is the fault of the EU.

As I said before, when we have politicians that stand up for and promote the industry, we will see change, until then nonsense policy and a percentage point here or there of a fringe vote seems to take precedence over the billions that the aviation industry earns in taxes for governments, the billions generated in direct and indirect employment.

Governments and bureaucrats have choked the the golden goose for all it is worth; it's at the point of extinction. When they've regulated and taxed aviation out of the EU, what are they going to do then ?

Of course they wont give a stuff because they'll still have their gold plated, index linked, public sector pensions and hubris to keep them warm at night.

And AN2-Driver pointed out:

Well, Malev was shot down by Brussels because it was subsidized, which they consider illegal. Yet, Malev was important for Hungary as a flag carrier and ensured that Hungary was connected by public transport with most European cities.

So why is it legal then that FR and others are getting paid to fly routes which would otherwise be not economically viable? Just because it is important that these cities are connected to others for the local governments?

under the new hegemonial rule of the Brussels figureheads, there are no countries anymore, just European provinces? And is it a coincidence, that one of those provinces has a non grata prime minister at the very time that it's flag carrier has the rug pulled from below it?


it's equally worth a point a point of consideration that Malev also paid the price for Hungary's position on the EU Veto:

Hungary, alone with UK, said vetoing plan for further EU integration seen as vital to eurozone rescue | Politics.hu (http://www.politics.hu/20111209/hungary-alone-with-uk-vetoes-plans-for-further-eu-integration-seen-as-vital-to-eurozone-rescue/)

No conspiracy theories, but political reality: perhaps a factor in the consideration of illegal subsidies in the EU, while the EU subsidises elsewhere, which it considers legal, despite having legal cases drawn against them. Maybe Malev were caught in 'perfect storm' of political leverage? who can say? I have no evidence either way. Either way though, as above, the operational environment for carriers in the EU is farce and it needs addressing before the golden goose is dead and buried.

Hussar 54
5th Feb 2012, 21:01
I haven't really thought through the EU legality around the alleged differences between Malev receiving subsidies from the Hungarian Government and Ryanair receiving ' Incentives ' from Regional and City Governments....

However, for those of you posting here that it is acceptable for Brussels to interfere and dictate to the Hungarian Government ( and previously the Italain Government ) what and how those currently independent Governments can do with their own tax revenues....If you genuinely believe that is acceptable or desirable - then beware !!

Because the logical follow-on from that is that you no longer really need your own National Governments anymore and therefore you will no doubt be quite happy to accept their dissolution and replacement by Regional Governments funded from the EU's central funds, which would, of course, need to collect all 100% of all taxes paid throughout the EU before deciding how to redistribute them....

Sounds crazy ?? Well, if 15 years ago you had been told that these same unelected EU Commissioners in Brussels would require member Governments to submit their own economic plans and budgets for review and approval by a a German based Central European Bank, you would have said that that idea was crazy too....

As the phrase goes - Be careful what you wish for....

oldchina
5th Feb 2012, 21:11
Like lots of Europeans, Hungarians are not having an easy time financially. Maybe you would care to ask them whether they want the taxes they pay out of their tight incomes to be spent on subsidies so they can fly to Frankfurt on Malev, or whether they want to pay less tax and fly to FRA on Lufthansa.

Of course, tax-and-subsidise governments will never ask the people.

Hussar 54
5th Feb 2012, 21:36
Good point....But at least the Hungarian people have the opportunity evry few years to vote for the people they want to run their country and spend their taxes....

If they don't like the way their taxes are spent, they'll vote for different politicians next time....

However, I can't remember the last time they were allowed to vote for the EU Commissioners who dream up these ridiculous rules....

And yes, I know that the Hungarian economy at the moment is a basket case - but I don't really believe the € 300 million handed to Malev ( was it ? ) five years ago is the cause of Hungary's current economic problems....the amount is no more than a thimblefull in the current resevoir of debt that Hungary is struggling to manage....

And yes, you're absolutely right - Hungarians can now fly Lufthansa to Frankfurt, the same as they can also fly Lufthansa to and between Germany,Switzerland, Austria, and Belgium because the same EU Commissioners continue to turn a blind eye to Lufthansa's virtual monoply of these routes....

So just a slight correction to your almost correct statement - Hungarians now will have to fly Lufthansa to Frankfurt which is not exactly a good example of competition is it ??

Denti
5th Feb 2012, 22:10
The hungarians?

Anyway, the rules of the EU, especially those about competition, were already around when hungary joined that club, and thereafter they had a say in any change. And unlike the Euro group there is actually an opt out clause from the EU and hungary is of course more than welcome to use it. Would save the rest of europe a lot of hassle and billions of euros every single year (net amount paid from the EU to hungary in 2009 close to 2,5 billion euro, third biggest amount in the EU).

By the way, nobody is forced to use lufthansa to reach frankfurt, there are other routes outside of the lufthansa network, although they might require a downroute stop, but alas it is possible.

drfaust
6th Feb 2012, 08:35
Sad for Malev this is. However the current system in the EU is simply leading to monopolisation of routes. After consolidation of a battle on a route there is only one airline left doing it. Except for exceptional routes like LHR-CDG and other really highh density airports. Those airplanes will always be full regardless of price.

I don't see how government money should EVER end up, in any circumstance, in an airline. So we choose either protectionism, which is fine by me, or we choose a free market, which is also fine by me. But surely we cant have one airline receiving loads of subsidies whilst another airline is being destroyed for receiving subsidies.

Hussar 54
6th Feb 2012, 09:37
It's nice to meet someone whose views are almost as myopic as my own - even if 180 degrees opposite....

Agree with everything you say about 'knew the rules, opt-out', etc....

But...It's the rules themselves, how and by whom they were created, and for what possible benefit were they created, which I find to be so undemocratic as to be crazy bordering on insanity....

Maybe these same EU bullies should consider paying a little more attention to the € zillions of government funding which the new-ish Middle Eastern carriers have received the past 15 years, and stop them operating inside the EU as competitiors to Europe's legacy carriers ??

Oh no, hang on...Most of those € zillions have been spent with Airbus, so that's all right then...

Are / were Malev so seriously a competitive threat to AF/KLM, BA/IB and LH/LX/OS/SN/BM that they should be forcibly shut down for receiving, some years ago, €300 million for breaking so-so rules of an organisation which itself spends € trillions every year handing out subsidies for everything from olive oil production to highway construction to directly and indirectly subsidising other airlines and routes in certain parts of Europe ??

I happen to think not....

black kettle
6th Feb 2012, 10:43
Hussar 54

We've had two airlines (Spanair being the other) go in the last week or so both having received so-called "illegal" subsidies.Whatever the rights and wrongs of the subsidies and whether or not they can be compared to regionalised ones given to FR etc,I'm not sure either outfit was actually "closed down by Brussels" as many here are suggesting.
Qatar A/W decided not to pursue Spanair PARTLY in case the "subsidies" were recalled and I think the Hungarian Govt simply felt further possibly "illegal" bailouts to Malev weren't going to turn the ship around.I think scapegoats are being sought for several essentially poorly run operations and I also think there's a national pride syndrome about legacy flag carriers.Personally,I'd have saved PanAm!

Hussar 54
6th Feb 2012, 11:03
I think it's probably only me who's actually used the term - almost everyone else has been far more charitable about Brussels and less so about Malev's own management....

But...Last one, because I'm probably boring everyone by now....For those of you who don't dip into other forums, and entirely coincidental datewise to this thread -

€250 mln in subsidies paid to 15 airlines in 5 years (http://www.tumbit.com/news/articles/4766-250-mln-in-subsidies-paid-to-15-airlines-in-5-years.html)

Seems Ryanair don't receive subsidies after all - as if !!

And presumably something else for the Brussels wallahs to have to investigate - as if !!

stuckgear
6th Feb 2012, 11:19
I'm not sure either outfit was actually "closed down by Brussels" as many here are suggesting.



Black Kettle, no one has suggested that either Spanair or Malev were shut down by Brussels.

That postulation is like trying to make an argument in an empty room.

What has been not, suggested, but stated is that the EU environment for operators is a farce. Some subsidies are illegal, but others are legal, yet it depends on the manner in which subsidies are driven and leveraged that makes it ok.

Anything else makes the operational envionment a game of 'musical chairs' and leaves a carrier facing the prospect of falling it's backside when the music stops this time around.

What is farcical is that as drfaust pointed out:


we choose either protectionism, which is fine by me, or we choose a free market, which is also fine by me. But surely we cant have one airline receiving loads of subsidies whilst another airline is being destroyed for receiving subsidies.

black kettle
6th Feb 2012, 12:24
Stuckgear

Last one from me as well,lest we stray too far OT.The term I used was my own,hence the quotes around it.
The post from drfaust makes the point I feel.I agree entirely with his "free market vs protectionism" sentiment but he then implies (IMHO) that these two outfits were penalised by EU bureaucracy for having had the subsidies.I don't believe the evidence supports that.They could,after all have been profitable in the first place.

V4Zombie
6th Feb 2012, 14:17
CaptPlaystation,

you are speaking my language. The whole industry is going the wrong way, you are right, this forum is too short to discuss that. Thanks to Ryan/Easy/Wizz etc. the respect and appreciation of flight crew now is the lowest ever. The industry as a whole, is walking down the same road road asWalmart or McDonalds.

Sad thing is that these vulture companies always find desperate guys.

TBM-Legend
6th Feb 2012, 21:23
signing on to the EU mean't you signed on to another version of communism. Central control by unelected officials...:sad:

fdr
6th Feb 2012, 22:25
basic economic theory suggests that over time unfettered competition results in the sum of all the entities reaching a zero economic value state, where the average profit plus cost of funds = zero. Some organisations will be above and others below the zero return result.

The changes of rules allows velociraptors to take advantage of opportunities that occur from the change to the playing field, and also from inconsistencies that arise as governments have a unique propensity to arrive at irrational outcomes with even the best of intentions. legacy companies, and those that behave like legacies due to inertia, lack of comprehension, or lack of situational awareness will suffer the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune", and either survive by reinventing themselves, or can be put on a metaphorical ventilator with State aid. In Europe, with the wonky governance of the EC and also various State players, it is more of a surprise that any industry maintains the ability to compete in an open market. The current direction of the RPT industry is to achieve the most minimal service outcome to the passenger at the short term benefit of relatively low pricing, but any assumption that pricing will remain attractive to the consumer in the long run is unlikely to be realised; the infrastructure of the industry needs to be paid for to be provided, and at present the prior investment has been afforded by legacy airlines and governments that were in a position to invest in the long term. Where the price of parking your car for a day at the airport, or the cost of a cappuccino is higher than the cost of the air ticket, it is hardly likely that the cost if ACMI+F, ramp, handling, security, terminal, landing, air nav etc are being recovered without some effective subsidies, which would even include the inflated value of second hand aircraft, being paid for by legacy carriers trying to reinvent themselves or other wannabes...

The EC is a swamp of B.S. regulations that impede competition, but have anomalous outcomes, such as killing the local carrier who is competing with others that are outside of the reach of the EC, or are smart enough to circumvent the rules of the EC. The retention of Alitalia while Malev collapses is inconsistent, and the EU citizens do suffer the consequences either directly (loss of jobs) or indirectly, (loss of infrastructure).

"if this is not a mess, it will do until a mess comes around..." as far as the RPT industry goes, and the EC regulation appears unable or disinterested in avoiding the collapse of the industry as is being dragged out in the US. OTOH, if you don't mind having pretzels thrown at you and drinking warm Coke, perhaps we are getting the mass transport system we deserve and desire.

My advice to young people wanting to enter the industry, Don't.


Cheers

twochai
7th Feb 2012, 01:41
The industry as a whole, is walking down the same road road asWalmart or McDonalds.

The international airline product today is nothing but a commodity, nothing more, nothing less! There a few exceptions of airlines who actually differentiate themselves from the competition, but they're few and far between!

demomonkey
7th Feb 2012, 13:11
The purpose of the EU legislation regarding airlines was precisely to prevent incumbent legacy carriers (i.e. Olympic) from stifling competition legitimate free market start-ups. Thus the marketplace would have more vendors which means more competition and thus lower/flexible fares. The free market.

Unfortunately Adam Smith never saw how global corporations would rise to create behemoth entities which themselves stifle competition and start-ups.

If you want to use the legislation to base the EU for your own ends. Go ahead but you're incorrect.

There are many reasons why the company failed. I think in the end its probably fair to say that the market size just didn't exist for a country of just over 10m people. They tried a LH strategy and a local strategy and even investment from Russians. It will be a great shame to see an airline with such a long history disappear. Maybe Central Europe would have been better served by LOT, CSA and Malev combining in a SAS style operation?

captplaystation
7th Feb 2012, 13:15
Would certainly have been better looking CC than SAS if they had merged :D

cslegany
7th Feb 2012, 14:30
An intensive campaign has been started on Facebook to establish a new Hungarian national carrier to be able to save as much of Malév as possible. During the past three days, already more than 24.000 people liked a page called https://www.facebook.com/malevert
The concept behind the campaign is that if it reaches hundreds of thousands of people, mainstream media will deal with it and we'll be able to re-establish a national carrier with thousands of shareholders.
If you've had pleasant moments on board of a Malev flight or agree with our idea, please support us by clicking on the like button.

The SSK
7th Feb 2012, 14:56
This, from Malev's Wiki entry, speaks volumes

On 12 July 2007 Lloyd Paxton was appointed CEO of Malév. Paxton replaced János Gönci, who will remain on the board of directors as an adviser. Mr Paxton was with British Airways for over 35 years and most recently was with Air Astana. Mr Paxton was the first Malév CEO to come from the airline industry. Two months later, on 14 September 2007, Lloyd Paxton resigned as CEO of Malév

Martin Gauss, who came later, was respected and professional but was constantly battling political interference.

There used to be a joke in the airline that the CEO's office was the only one on the management floor which didn't have a name plate.

RFGN
9th Feb 2012, 18:47
Hello everyone a fb friend asked me to share this:

http://malevmegmentese.info/declaration.html

Rgds

stephenkeane
9th Feb 2012, 19:39
Asia is an expanding market. China and India. Sorry to say both low cost attempts in these countries not wholly successful.So I think the future has potential, but while this governments aviation policy is a farce, short term may be tough times

nivsy
12th Feb 2012, 16:21
As a humble pax with a flight booking on Malev (albeit in May) my esteemed credit card company tells me they are "still flying" - despite me saying that half the fleet has on average been parked up in Ireland.

This Credit Card company - which has American in it and is not wideley excepted everywhere despite their advertising campaigns tell me to call a Budapest Number which of course no one answers.

Any thoughts what pax are supposed to do on flights booked through ,Malev.com? ;Last time I looked they were telling everyone to contact their credit card company....

Nivsy

stuckgear
12th Feb 2012, 16:44
nivsey, who did you book through ?

for example if you booked through expedia, you may well be covered under their ATOL (number 5788) other are like wise eg ebookers.com or travelhouse.co.uk..

the CAA, gives this advice..


Direct Booking with an Airline

http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifAirlines are not included within the ATOL Scheme, so if you booked direct with an airline that has ceased trading you will not be covered. If you paid directly to the airline by credit card you might be protected by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. You should check with your card issuer for further advice.
If you booked airline ticket through a travel agent you should speak to the agent. Some travel insurance covers airline insolvency, so if you took out a policy you should check whether this provides cover.
http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifhttp://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifBooked via an ATOL Holder

http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifIf you booked flights together with other holiday arrangements with a travel company that holds an ATOL (Air Travel Organiser's Licence), and received an invoice for these from this company, it is responsible for arranging alternative flights for you so that your holiday can continue. If you are abroad, it should make arrangements to bring you home at the end of your trip.
If you have bought just flights from an ATOL travel company and it issued your ticket straightaway, the company may provide airline failure insurance from which you can make a claim. You should contact the ATOL travel company.
http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifhttp://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifScheduled Airline Failure Insurance

http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationimages/whitespace.gifSome airlines, ATOL holders and travel agents will offer customers either a specific Scheduled Airline Failure Insurance (SAFI) policy or include similar protection within a broader travel insurance product. The type of protection provided may vary depending on the type of policy taken out. A policy may cover the cost of the original tickets purchased or the additional cost of purchasing new flights, such as when purchasing new tickets for travel back to the UK.


you can find out more here : Failure of Scheduled Airlines | Air Passenger Rights | Consumer Protection (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=125&pagetype=90&pageid=9522)


3 February 2012

Malev

On 3 February the Hungarian carrier Malev suspended operations and cancelled all planned flights from that date. More information and contact details for the airline can be found here (http://www.malev.com/index_en.htm)1.
Passengers who booked through a Travel Agent are advised to contact them in the first instance.
Passengers who booked directly with the airline using a credit or debit card should contact their card issuer.

alexmcfire
12th Feb 2012, 17:15
As for Swissair, they had a horrible crash with their MD-11, I think it was one reason. Malev has a good safety record in comparision.

nivsy
13th Feb 2012, 08:35
Stuckgear, Thanxs for response - booking was made direct with Malev through Malev.com.

I am hoping that Amex will try and sort out some repayment....

black kettle
13th Feb 2012, 11:07
On the subject of all these flights no longer operating,does anyone know why BUD Airport insist on still showing all the flights with "cancelled" against them on the flight information?
Are they reluctant to accept the airline has gone?

captjns
13th Feb 2012, 11:11
If you paid by AMEX, then AMEX will sort out the problem. I had a similar problem a few years back and they came through:ok:

Zoyberg
23rd Feb 2012, 09:46
Lost my job at the back end of 2009...just before Christmas. Really grim.Heard that RYR had setup a base there withing a couple of days and Chineese agencies are doing roads shows. All the best to those looking for a job.

racedo
23rd Feb 2012, 19:50
Good old American Slowtrain....................