Transferring from AAC to RAF

[ryanp16]

Right, so this is the situation.

I'm Irish, and want to be a fast-jet pilot. My own country's military is out of the question because the fastest thing we have is a Pilatus PC-9. RAF seems the most likely option, however I need to be living in the UK for 5 years in order to apply, and by the time I'm finished college I'll be 22, and 5 years after that would make me too old to apply.

However, there's no problem with getting into the AAC. So my question is, is it possible to, or does anyone know someone who has, served in the AAC and then been able to transfer to the RAF even if they were over the age limit?

Thank you for all replies. :)


Ps: I'm also looking at the USAF but that seems to be a million times more complicated...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ps: I'm also looking at the USAF but that seems to be a million times more complicated..

Ahhh... but by the time you've finished college and waited five years the USA will still have fast jets... One isn't so sure about the British Forces... :{

[ryanp16]

To be honest the only problem with going the USAF route is getting a green card, which just seems to be a game of luck...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Silly question:

If you are applying to the US Military couldn't they be your sponsor?



Never mind... I googled.... Yep - you have to be here first - legally - to apply...

[ryanp16]

Unfortunately not;

taken from USAF website:

"Note: The U.S. military branches cannot assist foreign nationals in obtaining admittance into the United States. Questions concerning immigration to the United States should be asked of the U.S. Embassy. Only after immigration procedures are completed and an applicant is legally residing in the United States may an application for enlistment be accepted. Furthermore, in order to be commissioned an officer in the U.S. Air Force, one must be a native-born or naturalized United States citizen."

[Art of flight]

Quite a few have transferred from the British AAC to RAF so yes it's possible. That said, none have gone on from rotary to fast jet. It's quite a tenuous route that you're looking at with a tiny chance of achieving your dream solution. Best thing would be to ask the RAF, and don't tell the AAC that you really want 2 years training from them just to jump ship some time later.

[ryanp16]

Oh yeah I'm aware of that, but I'm currently in the process of organising surgery to get that fixed. It counts as a "squint", and as long as I apply six months after the surgery its all good.


Good point. Would it be advisable to talk to the AFCO about it, or just simply email the RAF..?

[ryanp16]

The second half of my previous post wasn;t directed at you, although your response to the email question really entertained me. :p I meant should I email them asking is it possible to transfer.

It says on the British army site that a bar to entry is "squint surgery within the last six months." So I'm assuming if you have the surgery and the whole thing is fixed then after six months it wont be an issue.

Anyway, I'm asking these questions with the assumption that any and all eye issues will be cleared up. :)

[Airborne Aircrew]

Art of Flight:

That said, none have gone on from rotary to fast jet. It's quite a tenuous route that you're looking at with a tiny chance of achieving your dream solution.

While your comment is well taken it's important for the OP to understand that at least one NCO Aircrew, (a Crewman that I knew), went from crewman in the RAF Rotary world to, I believe, a Wing Commander Tornado jockey....

So it is "possible"... Not easy, and Andy P was a special chap, but possible.

[Airborne Aircrew]

KF:

I know... But Art of Flight's comment seemed to imply that rotary pilots do not transfer to pointy jet pilots. My comment was to show that "mere" rotary crewmen can transfer to pointy jet pilots.

Hope that's clearer... :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ryan:

If you get anything beneficial out of this thread it will most probably be what a nit-picky, know it all, always right bunch RAF pilots are...

You might want to take that into account when you try to transfer from the AAC to the RAF... Because when you don't make it to pointy jets and are stuck with the rest who may have chips on their shoulders it might prove to be one of your less well thought out decisions.

Just something to consider.

[Roadster280]

Taking a step back, have you considered:

a) The RAF, AAC & USAF will all require you to put yourself in harm's way in defence of the nation. But not your nation. Flying big boys' toys may be all well and good, but ultimately, it may cost you your life. Just something to think about, if you haven't already.

b) To be a FJ pilot in the USAF requires that you are commissioned. That requires that you have a degree. So count on another 4 years.

c) If you succeed in joining the US forces, you then have a preferential ground for citizenship.

d) Citizens of Ireland may be eligible for the green card lottery, but those of the UK aren't (less N. Ireland). That aside, there are other avenues to acquire a green card, but they all take time. Marriage takes less initial time, but the return of service is a bitch :)

Good luck!

[heights good]

There is another crewman who is currently at Lossie (or was a few yrs ago) who is a current Tornado pilot. NCO aircrew is also an option if you don't make pilot.

HG

[Pontius Navigator]

ryan, have you seen a consultant yet or is that to come?

Even post-op is no guarantee that you would be accepted. Brother in law was found to be inoperable.

Then there is that old-old story of 100% naturally fit against someone who is 90% post-surgery. If there are enough fitter candidates presenting then they are reluctant to accept someone less that pefect.

It is accepted that everyone will age after they join; they just don't want anyone that is already below the peak to start with.

But don't be put off; determination can succeed where others fail.

[ryanp16]

Thank you all very much for your replies. :)

I don;t know how to reply to each of you individially, so here's just a few answers to your questions/statements.

I know I'll need a degree for the USAF. I'm currently almost half way through a BA in Mathematics and Physics.

I've also put a lot of thought about being caught in another man's war. It's something that's still an on-going battle inside my head. It pretty much boils down to:
1. Join USAF/AAC/RAF, have the potential to be seriously injured/killed, but still living the dream.
2. Join Irish military, be completely safe, probably never get to fly the decent planes, since we only have 7 of them, then a few cessnas, (having said that, the best we have are turboprops mounted with HMGs and rocket pods...)

So I'm slightly more inclined to go with the former. Yes, it's risky/dangerous, but hey, it's living the dream.


As for the eye surgery, I haven't seen a consultant yet. It's actually a tricky situation. The eye problem is so miniscule that it was never picked up by any doctor/optician until I went to them myself and told them what was happening. :ugh:

[Art of flight]

My reference to 'none from rotary to fast jet' should be read as written in the context of the whole post. No AAC rotary pilot has transferred to the RAF and retrained as a fast jet pilot. This was given as an answer to Ryans proposed career route plan. He wasn't asking about RAF to RAF at any rank. Plenty of my ex-colleagues made the move from AAC to RAF SH force around 15 years ago to fill the Puma and Chinook manning shortages, most were QHI or with a couple of thousand hours.

Should he join the British AAC he would need to fly at least 4 years rotary (probably plenty more) before becoming anything near the sort of pilot/experience combo that the RAF might take a look at as a transfer, so would in reality still be too old to for RAF FJ.:ok:

[Art of flight]

Of course I show my age with that last post, in those days RAF rotary were said to be those that didn't get the points at Biggin for fast jet pilot or Nav! ;)

[ShyTorque]

A myth anyway. Pilots weren't streamed at Biggin Hill. That was done based on the performance achieved at BFTS.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Of course I show my age with that last post, in those days RAF rotary were said to be those that didn't get the points at Biggin for fast jet pilot or Nav! ;)

Up to the bit where you said fast jet pilot your post was almost believable but then you went and took any credibility away :p

[ryanp16]

Actually would it be possible to join the (say) Royal Marines and then apply for pilot training in the navy? If it's possible it might be easier to get a fast jet since the RN is buying a few F-35s I believe..

[Roadster280]

UK MOD is buying a few F35s. That's all that's been said, and even they look a bit shaky.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ryan:

I'd suggest that with the current tempo of ops the Booties are handling they might be less likely to release you to flying training than you are likely to be accepted by the AAC and released to the RAF. Note also that you are putting another major obstacle in your way - The Commando Course... It's not an attendance course. Fail it and you just "wasted" six months.

[cokecan]

Ryan,

i think you're pissing in the wind here mate - for a start if you think your secret dream of flying fast jets will get you through the hell of the RM's commando course (and then, what 4 years of service in a operational unit before you can apply for flying training?) then you're going to be horribly disappointed, and secondly, given the fun we have with the septics over tech transfer, do you really believe that anyone who'se great-grandad wasn't stood next to King Harold saying '****, watch out for that arrow!' is going to be allowed within 500ft of an F-35?

sorry, but your unfortunate mix of condition and nationality are, imv, an insurmountable block to flying fast jets. the UK is going to have perhaps 200 fast jets in the future and literaly thousands of people every year applying to fly them - 99% of whom will have no medical conditions and no vetting nightmare to wade through. in that situation, would you consider taking an application from you?

[Seanthebrave]

Ryan, ring the medical staff at OASC regarding your eye condition and how they would look on that; the AFCO staff are useless, the OASC staff are the very people who will take that make or break decision, the likelihood is that it will come down to a person by person basis. Don't listen to the crap about thousands of perfectly fit applicants being selected ahead of you because you have a blot on your medical records (which may well be resolved). The RAF pick the best personalities ahead of the people with clean sheets on their records, if you can get an ophthalmic surgeon to back up your case, then this would help a lot...I know guys that are now in as aircrew, who had asthma, hey-fever and other 'bars' to entry, you just need to find a way around it. The medical staff are looking for reasons to cut people out of the selection process, so if you can pull some maneuvers to counter that, then you should be just as competitive as the other guys (OASC performance permitting).

As for USAF, I would count that one out, I think you would be too old before you're eligable to apply... eligibility for citizenship, gaining citizenship etc...but even if you get into the RAF or Navy, the slots for FJ are extremely competitive. Once everyone comes back from theatre (and the chopper OCUs are serviceable again), I would expect the EFT squadrons will resume sending 2 or 3 from 12 to Linton, and you'd be flying with a bunch of guys that may have 80 or 90 hours on tutors under their belt from their UAS days.

My advice would be to keep plucking away at it anyway, as it wont do you any harm to keep focused on it, make yourself as extremely f*****g competitive as you possibly can, and remember that there are a LOT of people who will tell you, you can't join for various reasons because the guidelines say so. Don't be put off, keep trying best of luck!

[Seanthebrave]

P.s.

As some inspiration, the boss of 3 squadron a few years back, convinced the air force to let him in with only one A-level. I also came across an american F14/F18E mate, who had been shot in the neck, when he was a teenager, and had been told that he would never be able to join full stop...their medical entry system works differently, but he said he had to go through I don't know how many doctors (it was an obscene number) before he got a waiver from one to go and join!

[ShyTorque]

but he said he had to go through I don't know how many doctors (it was an obscene number) before he got a waiver from one to go and join!

Ooer, missus! I suppose if if all else fails.... :E

[corsair]

Several points. The USAF idea is a non runner. They look for a four year degree and all pilot positions in the US military including Warrant Officer pilots in the army require citizenship not just a green card.

As for joining the AAC as a back door to the RAF. This assumes the AAC will even accept you in the first place and then you manage to become an army pilot. Then transfer to the RAF and end flying Typhoons. Full marks for imagination but that would be like winning the lottery twice and about as likely.

I think you need to be realistic, it's very unlikely.

A better option might be to join the RAF itself in some form of ground job and go from there.

Also you shouldn't be so dismissive of the Irish Air Corps. You'd have to be very good to get a cadetship. In recent years they've only taken two or three cadets annually. You would consider yourself very fortunate indeed to be selected.

In the real world the chances of you or any Irish citizen flying fast jets anymore is slim to none.

[ryanp16]

Thanks everyone for all the posts and information.

Seanthebrave, thank you, very inspirational and motivational post.

I still have two years left to decide how I'm going to do this, but I'm certainly going to try. If I don't I'll definitely regret it later on in life. At least if I try and it doesn't work out, I could still have a very successful career in the AAC or Navy. Fast-Jet is the top of the scale for me, but if that didn't happen I'd still want to join some part of the military anyway. :)

On a somewhat related note, can marines join the AAC, or is that restricted to army personnel?

[unclenelli]

If anyone discovers any info, one of my SACs might be grateful for any info on a reverse route, RAF to AAC

[Airborne Aircrew]

If anyone discovers any info, one of my SACs might be grateful for any info on a reverse route, RAF to AAC

No problem, he'll be commanding a regiment by Xmas... :ok:

[Two's in]

No problem, he'll be commanding a regiment by Xmas...

Not if doesn't own a pair of red corduroy trousers he won't...

[Roadster280]

Not if doesn't own a pair of red corduroy trousers he won't...

And that's just for the RAF Regiment. Still, can't blame the lad for wanting to improve his lot in life and go Army.

One fatal question though, when the recruiter asks him "So why did you join the RAF in the first place?". He either denigrates his current service, or looks stupid. Not a win-win situation.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

One fatal question though, when the recruiter asks him "So why did you join the RAF in the first place?". He either denigrates his current service, or looks stupid. Not a win-win situation.

Which will hopefully result in the Army recruiter stamping his application FAILED thus ensuring his life is not completely ruined for ever :ok:

[Kreuger flap]

The RAF pick the best personalities

http://smileydatabase.com/smilies/490.gif


As some inspiration, the boss of 3 squadron a few years back, convinced the air force to let him in with only one A-level.

http://smileydatabase.com/smilies/490.gif I managed to persuade the RAF to let me in with only 5 O levels.

Ryan give it up, you have a wonky eye and your Irish. Who is ever going to take you seriously with those two disabilities.

[Airborne Aircrew]

KF:

Ryan give it up, you have a wonky eye and your Irish. Who is ever going to take you seriously with those two disabilities.

B-I-T-C-H... :D

[Milo Minderbinder]

KF
That could have been phrased in a less Cromwellian fashion perhaps?

[500N]

Kruger Flap

That is Gold, one of the best I have seen.:D

A good start to the day :ok:

(BTW, I now need a new keyboard, again)

[Seanthebrave]

Ryan, with regards to the marines flying AAC helicopters, I think the answer is very much a no, but the marines have a few of their own pilots for helicopters and there was even a marine instructing at Linton a couple of years ago...

If you're dead set on being a pilot, AAC is very risky, it's a very popular destination for Sandhurst cadets and as far as I'm aware, is one of very few (only?) regiments to not sponsor people through Sandhurst, though I haven't looked into it in a couple of years. I would have AAC as your back-up-back-up option.

Also, with regards to nationality. with 2 years of university left, you could transfer to a university in the UK (Queens?) and join a UAS, which would get the hardest part of the nationality issue out of the way, which is getting the AFCO to put you forward for OASC; if you're on a UAS, you send an application through the UAS staff, thereby making OASC pretty much guaranteed (unless you're an obvious dunce). It would be a risky solution, I'm not entirely sure how strict the UAS' are for nationality, but I don't think they're that strict for the commonwealth...maybe you could ring them or something...but these are the sort of solutions you should be looking at. From my own experience, being on the UAS (especially in your circumstances) suddenly makes joining the RAF a very real prospect.

[Kreuger flap]

but I don't think they're that strict for the commonwealth...maybe you could ring them or something...I think the answer would be what dunce told you that as Ireland haven't been in the Commonwealth for 61 years.

Ooh wait (unless you're an obvious dunce)

I knew that and I don't even have 1 A level. Maybe that's why I ain't a Sqn Boss.:(

Still on the upside I am PAS.:ok:

[ryanp16]

Thanks seanthebrave!

I've googled UAS and nothing has come up, so I'm afraid I'm a bit lost as to what that is...

Oh and KF;
I found your Irish/eye post quite funny. Maybe I wont make it. You certainly seem to think so since 90% of your posts have been telling me just that. Maybe I should just give up.

Oh wait, that's f***ing stupid. I'm not a quitter and never will be.

[kbrockman]

Ryan,

I see you are Irish and you want to serve in an army that has Fighterjets,
in stead of going at it the hard way, why not look at other EU countries.

eg, My country, Belgium,
I know for a fact that once you live here as a EU citizen it is fairly quick to get your second nationality, Belgian, the paperwork is murder and quite laborious but after 3 years you could call yourself Belgian provided you also engage a specialized lawfirm (just to expediate things a bit) and learn either Dutch , German or French, as an officer you will later be resuired to speak all 4 languages (incl English).
The only thing is that you should be employed during that time and live over here "show attachement to the country".
Things can go quicker if you enlist in a generaliztion round, those seem to happen every couple of years, you being EU citizen are than eligable quicker than the normal 3 years or 5 for non EU citizens.

Once you're Belgian you can join up and join the Airforce, keep in mind though that maximum age to become an officer/pilot varies from year to year it seems, last I heard it was 27 for the air component.
Once you're in and you pass all classes ,the route to F16 (or whatever we get next) is fairly obvious because they constitute by far the biggest part of the piloting group.

One thing is sure, like in all other countries there are far more applicants than position, however the last couple of years it has become much harder for the Air Component to get enough candidates that want to stay, so if you don't mind the pay (not bad but nowhere near what's to be had in the private world) and the time away from home this might be an alternative way for you.
Also it is very unlikely that there will be any further major defence cuts in the next 10 years, NATO obligations pretty much prevent that from happening and the Air Force is likely the last to suffer anyway.

just an idea ,maybe, maybe not.


PS; whatever you do don't get your info and consider it as conclusive from official channels alone, get some first hand info from a specialised law office if you really want to know all your options (pay for a one or two hour consult).

PPS It seems that you can join the Armed forces as a non citizen anyway, provided you're EU citizen, last year we had 167 applicants, I believe for pilot training you need to be of Belgian nationality so best join up go to the polytechnic military school and join the pilot course as an officer 4 years later with an engineering degree as an extra.

[Seanthebrave]

I don't even have 1 A level. Maybe that's why I ain't a Sqn Boss.

Is that also the reason why you've spelt Krueger wrong?

[Kreuger flap]

No. there is already a Krueger Flap on pprune.:p

[500N]

ryan

" I've googled UAS and nothing has come up, so I'm afraid I'm a bit lost as to what that is..."

University Air Squadrons

University Air Squadrons - Home (http://www.raf.mod.uk/universityairsquadrons/)

:ok:

[ryanp16]

Hey thanks Kbrockman!

I had considered other countries; particularly France, since my conversational skills in French are quite high; a few months in France and I'd be fluent. But again, there's a waiting period of 5 years to gain residency which would make me too old.

Although if I only had to wait three years for dual Irish/Belgian citizenship, that could work out nicely. I'm currently looking into it.

[Kreuger flap]

I'm currently looking into it.

Now that is funny.

[kbrockman]

Ryan look at my edited PPS

[ryanp16]

Thanks 500N!

This UAS seems to be offlimits as well; seems I need 5 years of UK residency to apply.

[ryanp16]

Now that is funny.

You know my vision is actually fine.

[Kreuger flap]

Of course it is. I am only joking with you ryan.

[500N]

KF

:D LOL

This thread is very good.:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

KF

:D LOL

This thread is very good.:ok:

Especially Sean thinking he is going to outsmart KF :p:p:p

[ryanp16]

Kbrockman;

so what you're saying is I'd essentially have to go through university all over again?

[kbrockman]

Kbrockman;

so what you're saying is I'd essentially have to go through university all over again?

I'm sorry I was going by your age, 19, which means just started university or about to start.
I was suggesting going to Belgium , start uni in the military polytechnical school = military university which would give you an engineering degree and the required number of years in Belgium to be eligable for naturalization , than start as an officer in pilotschool.

I didn't realize you have already finished University.

[ryanp16]

I haven't finished yet - I'm half way through a degree in mathematics and physics.

So is this route still open?

[kbrockman]

Admission to the University is only possible through public exams. First student have to pass military test common to all Belgian military categories (Medical, Endurance and physical tests, and a psychologic evaluation). After passing these, applying students have to compete with each other in public exams. These consist of mathematics and French & Dutch written language tests. The University can only accommodate a certain number of student each year (rough estimate: 400/year) (strongly influenced by the need for officers of the Belgian military). Applying students have to compete with each other for these limited places.

Nationalities

The grand majority of the students have the Belgian nationality, but cooperation with other countries has opened up the University to other nationalities. A lot of Luxemburgian officers receive their education in the University and have a long history in it.

More recently the University received military students from Congo, Marocco, Tunesia, Rwanda,.. thanks to military coöperation, training and development programs. However, these student often belong to the social elite of their home country.

The foreign student have, in contrast to the Belgian students, no obligation to follow the Flemish (or Dutch) language courses.

Also know that;
Your years in the school count as waiting time to become a belgian national
The quality is extremely good, you get a very good engineering degree which is worth a lot post military service.


PS with your education in maths and science related fields you already have a big lead against pupils comming from highschool, the tests are a competition= meritocracy= highest scores matters , not nationality.


useful link;
Royal Military Academy (http://www.rma.ac.be/en/)
International Society of Military Sciences - The International Society of Military Sciences (http://www.isofms.org/pagina/home.html)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"However, these student often belong to the social elite of their home country."

Big clue :p

[500N]

""However, these student often belong to the social elite of their home country."

I'd like to think the "social elite" of Marocco, Tunesia can do better.:ugh:

[kbrockman]

I hope they do better than the writer, I'd like to think the "social elite" of Marocco, Tunesia can do better.

I can also write this in Dutch,French or German, I doubt however you would be able to understand all of it.:E

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I can also write this in Dutch,French or German, I doubt however you would be able to understand all of it.:E

We're British so why the **** would we need to :p

[500N]

kb

Slight misunderstanding, that comment wasn't aimed at you but whoever wrote the text in Wikipedia which I gather is where it came from.


I'd lie to know what language a "Marocco" speaks, I never knew a performing horse could talk in any language.:O

[Milo Minderbinder]

We're British so why the **** would we need to http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

when Carmeron decides to secede from the European Union and we have to fight for our independence
Someone has to read the other sides e-mails



I'd lie to know what language a "Marocco" speaks
Maraccoon??

[kbrockman]

I never knew a performing horse could talk in any language
X0XcH6d-1Ms&feature=related

[Vortex5]

I also came across an american F14/F18E mate, who had been shot in the neck, when he was a teenager, and had been told that he would never be able to join full stop...their medical entry system works differently, but he said he had to go through I don't know how many doctors (it was an obscene number) before he got a waiver from one to go and join!

This may be a different story, but are you possibly getting this mixed up with the American chap who got shot through the mouth and severed one of his arteries? He can be found in the movie 'Speed and Angels'.

Ryan, like what a lot of people are saying see if your surgery will fix your eye problem and actually see if that will let you join the AAC/FAA/RAF. Also know that a lot of people join these services cause they do genuinely want to fly rotary wing and don't just want to jump the gun onto fastjets. The competition is stiff especially with cadets and university students in the UAS and URNU gaining hours on fixed wing aircraft.

Have you ever thought about joining civvie aviation ? I've heard they do like physics and engineering degrees.

[Milo Minderbinder]

what would his chances be of getting a seat in Australia or Canada?

[BBadanov]

Probably not good from Oz.
Look at this thread that has gone on for years...although Oz is not in the dire straits (they were from Newcastle, right?) that UK is, getting on a course is just so competitive.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged.html

Mate, I can't give you advice about leaving your home country to UK or US...You are just unlucky, you want to fly FJs, and Ireland doesn't have any.

Become a doctor.

[Bastardeux]

Ryan, I hate to tell you but the likelihood of anyone being accepted into the air force for the next couple of years is slim to none...bursars have been told to wait indefinitely and many are re-branching. They still have 200 too many in the training system, keep your options open is all I'm saying.

Things may improve in time for you to join but things are pretty unpredictable at the moment!

[Two's in]

You might as well try for the Irish Air Corps' PC-9 Program Ryan, the way the current Defence cuts are going it will soon be faster and more capable than anything the MoD can offer you...

[ryanp16]

Thanks everyone!

I think I might end up going down the Irish air corp route. Plans for a united Ireland in 2016, which might result in Ireland joining Nato, which would probably end up in Ireland getting a few FJs...

[Unchecked]

Ten out of ten for imagination.

[brakedwell]

and optimism :E