F33A Bonanza

[CitationJet]

I know there is a lot of Bonanza experience on PPRUNE and I am interested in any insights the collective wisdom of PPRUNE can offer on owning and operating an F33A Bonanza.

I am looking for a low hours (<1500), late build (after 1990) example and am keen to get a handle on operating costs, in particular maintenance/annuals and any time life limited issues I should be aware of.

Any gotchas for a pre-buy would be appreciated too.

Thanks for your insights!

CJ

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Take a long hard look at CofG issues for your typical loading. It is easy to load a V-tail out of its rear CofG envelope, but if it is within the envelope on departure it will likely still be within the envelope on landing unless you fly it down into standard reserves.

The problem with the BE33 (Arrow :E) is that you can more easily take off legal and then fly it out of the envelope as it burns fuel.

Other than that, get a Bonanza savy LAME to go over it with a fine tooth comb to ensure all ADs have been complied with etc.

Dr :8

[TBM-Legend]

when did an F33A get a V-tail??

I'm not familiar with that one..

[Captain Nomad]

but if it is within the envelope on departure it will likely still be within the envelope on landing unless you fly it down into standard reserves.


Hmm, not exactly legal still though hey? Supposed to be in balance for ZFW also (not just landing weight).

At the low hours you are looking at it probably won't be an issue (unless it has corrosion issues) but with the F33C I flew in the past I know it cost the owner a lot of dosh when he had to get a wing spar inspection done. It is an integral spar that requires a lot of work for engineers to access and work on. Having said that, they are built solid as (it is a Beech after all)! :ok:

If it is any encouragement, it was one of the nicest little machines I ever flew - a real pilot's aeroplane!

[VH-XXX]

Did my Aviation Medical today. The doctor told me that he almost had his PPL.

Have a guess what type of aircraft he wants to buy.......


You guessed it, a Bonanza, second choice a Mooney.

He had never heard of the FTDK terminology.

I suggested that the aircraft of choice for killing doctor pilots these days is a Cirrus. He hadn't heard of them either.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Maybe it would have been better to say 'short bodied' Bonanza - the V tail and straight tail short bodied Bonanzas have very similar CofG issues when loaded to the gunnels.

CJ spend whatever it takes to be assured of zero corrosion - a good start is factory corrosion proofing - walk away from an aircraft not so treated. I think that became standard some time in the mid 80s so you should be ok there.

There are no life limited parts as such - I believe later model Bonanzas certified under Far 23, as opposed to Car 3 earlier models, have a 10000hr airframe 'life' but 1/. You'll never get near that flying personally. 2/. There are 20000hr Car 3 certified A36s at flying schools in the US which are still going strong - and they changed NOTHING in the build method/quality when the rules changed.

Basically you will spend $4-5000 on hangarage, same for insurance and $2500-???? for annuals.

Call it (upper range) $14k for fixed costs - $12k would be lower range.

DOCs about $130/hr

So hour 1 of the year costs $14130...every hour thereafter costs $130. So no excuse to not fly a LOT:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

when did an F33A get a V-tail??
I'm not familiar with that one.. Suggest you go back and read my post carefully. At NO time did I say that the F33A has a V-tail - I guess the BE33 (Arrow) shot was a bit too subtle for you, huh?

I hope your ops manuals come with pictures!

Seesh - you gotta love Pprune!

What I said is that the V-tail Bonanzas (BE35) have significant CofG issues - but the straight-tail (ie Piper-tail) Bonanzas (ie BE33 "Arrow") are even worse.

In both of these airframes (which are identical apart from the tail), as fuel is burnt the CofG moves aft. In the BE35, that CofG envelope is such that it will stay within the envelope (just) until about 40-50 L of fuel remains - but for the BE33 this is NOT the case and a BE33 at MTOW and on the rear edge of the envelope will depart the envelope as fuel is burnt.

I assume that this is a reflection of the ability of the tailplane/ruddervator to counter the rearward movement of the CofG.

The BE33 is a fine aeroplane but you should carefully consider the CofG issues to ensure that it will do safely what you expect of it.

Plus what Chuckles said!

Dr :8

PS: ..... and for the record, all Bonanzas (BE35) have a V-tail! The BE33 'Arrow' and the BE36 'Lance' are similar in many ways and are often confused with the Bonanza. :E

[rioncentu]

Mate of mine loves his F33A but I've heard him on more than one occasion say (or mutter:}) "sometimes I wish I'd have bought an A36"

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Tch Tch....he shudda bought a .........210!:p:p

Ya gets ta fly in da shade.....:cool::cool:

Yeah I know......Hat , coat....:}

[Wally Mk2]

I agree 'griffo', C210 far better than the old Beech in a few ways.....BUT...the Beech is built like a tank where as the Cess is very much 'commodore-ish' meaning it feels cheap:) I've flown both, worked on both (in another life) & when you look at what holds the wings on in a Beech compared to the Cess 210 then I wonder how I ever stepped aboard a Cess:ok:
Never did like the crappy control column set up though in the Beech, ugly as sin & cumbersome:-)!

But seeing as 'Forkie' is the authority on the SE Becch then you better listen to him:)


Wmk2

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Now get a turbonormalised IO550 BE33 Arrow and you have a way cool aeroplane - not nearly as sexy as the BE35, but cool! C of G issues disappear with the TNT IO550.

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

And tip tanks? :ok:

[CitationJet]

Thanks for all the good responses. Will be looking for an IO-550. Don't know that there Are too many TNs around though.

I have worked a lot of W&B problems on the F33A so I have a reasonable handle on those limitations, and the need at times to maintain fuel levels to keep inside the rear limit. I am usually only 2POB so full fuel and burning down to stat reserves won't be a problem.

I was curious though about Capt Nomad's comment on needing to be in balancecat both TOW and ZFW. I can't say that I remember that requirement, as distinct from the need to be within limits at TOW and landing weight.

An A36 with the double doors and the separate yokes would be nice, however I really don't need the doors for usual 2POB ops, and the modern panel while good is not worth spending an extra 100k or so on.

I am keen to hear from any other Bonanza owners on what to expect on the cost of annuals.

CJ

[Clearedtoreenter]

CJ

You're getting some great advice here.... except maybe

and $2500-???? for annuals.


You'd be lucky to get the tyres pumped for that on a Bo and as for Beech parts prices... Big ouch!

The Dr is right as always of course the V tail got the straight tail and they called it C33 Debonair until about 1968. Then it became the E33 and then they put the IO520 in the E33 and it became the F33. The last V tail was about 1981 but the straight tail F33A went onto about 93(?) I don't think they made all that many late eighties, early nineties F33's but there's always a good selection on Controller and ASO for some reason....

I came very close to buying a IO550 powered F33A a couple of years ago. Many US owners seem to have upgraded to the 550 when it comes to overhaul time. I understand its not big deal to do the swap. That thing was genuinely good for 180 kts TAS and an absolute joy to fly.... (except for a few minor things like noisey door seals and crappy avionics) but the log books were a mess, having had about 3 million different 'engineers' working on it over the years. They're all getting old now, labour intensive, often hated by LAME's and OHHH the parts. Go slower, get a 182T or Saratoga or 206H or if you must have an old slightly complicated quickish 4 place plane, a 182RG . Maybe you'd die of boredom but at least you might stay sane and solvent.;)

[Old Akro]

$2,500 annuals? Talk dirty to me. What a fantastic fantasy to indulge.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Cleared and old Akro I think you will find an annual on a good clean well maintained Bo is around that figure - the reason I put - ???? after it was to indicate the upper level figure if MORE than just 'an annual' is being done is anyones guess.

Probably I should have written 'annual maintenance $2500-????'

But if you're the type of owner that fixes things as soon as they break rather than waiting for 'the annual' then I reckon your average annual will be around that figure - it is after all about 2 days of labour checking stuff + oil and a filter.

Some years that is all you will do...others, well - ????

I think if you look at my original post on this thread you will see that my $14k figure allows for $5k of annual maintenance if you're paying $5k for hangarage and $4k for insurance which are achievable figures.

Yes the price of some Beechcraft parts are off the planet. There is no rhyme or reason. Some parts you just about defecate at the mere thought of what it will cost and the price comes back at a fraction of the figure you had in mind...other bits that you think will be next to nothing, the quote comes back and you want to choke the life outa someone at HBC.

On the upside a well maintained Bo needs very few parts from one year to the next. Even in my ongoing Bonanza restoration saga I have had to buy VERY few Beechcraft specific parts - its been 99% sweat equity/labour/sheet metal/rivets. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 or 5 bits that were Bonanza specific that wouldn't total $2000.

Plus Beechcraft built SO MANY Bonanzas that there is an AWESOME 'pre loved' parts market and non OEM market....but if you absolutely MUST buy a bit that is not available ANYWHERE else you CAN go to HBC and order absolutely ANY part and they will sell it to you.

Try that with a Cessna 210 or Piper Commanche.

[frigatebird]

Chuckles said:
"So hour 1 of the year costs $14130...every hour thereafter costs $130. So no excuse to not fly a LOThttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif "

Warning: slight thread drift

You have no idea how hard it is to sell that idea to other individuals contemplating ownership, or to Club members. The Treasurer and Committee just take the lazy way of dividing total yearly costs by hours flown to come up with some exorbitant hourly rate that doesn't justify the Club having an aircraft at all, and that stops members from considering use.
The way I look at it, the cost of having a Club, or personal Cessna 172, (in our area, including hangarage is about $8,000 p.a. - for the first hour), paid off and owned, sitting in its own hanger, was a decision made when it was acquired. With rental from the other 9 hangars covering the non-rented one, and the airframe, - in my opinion, there is no reason why the aircraft could not be hired out to Clubmembers at it's Direct Operating cost (plus, say, a small margin), say $120/hour, to increase the utilisation and provide a better service to members than the about $200-240/hour that scares them away from utilisation.

Of couse it would be more competitive, and a four seater to boot, - and may even reclaim utilisation from the Commercial RAA flying school hired 2 seat ultralights (wouldn't do much for that cosy relationship ) - but isn't that what Club membership (low costs, shared) has over Private ownership (exclusive use), as opposed to more expensive Commercial hire (hire, fly, and forget) is about..?
Few people these days seem interested in cheap Club flying, rather than pitching in and helping to make one work, they prefer a turn-key operation of walk-in, fly, walk-away, and then complain about how expensive G.A. flying is..

Once the decision to have an aircraft is made, and the first (expensive) annual hour flown, then the rate is only direct operating cost plus a small margin, or a reserve, for the (always) unexpected extra expenses.

[SW3]

Beech = Pilot's dream but LAME's nightmare! However still a beautiful aeroplane. Have a good look at compression levels on the engine and oil consumption. From memory many airframe parts are expensive due to high magnesium content. New AD out for checking elevator cables, quite a few affected.
A cheaper option is the Comanche. Again a little on the old and labour intensive side but has a Lycoming, still fast and doesn't have the loading issues. An option but always buy what makes you happy!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

You're getting some great advice here.... except maybe
and $2500-???? for annuals. You'd be lucky to get the tyres pumped for that on a Bo and as for Beech parts prices... Big ouch!

$2,500 annuals? Talk dirty to me. What a fantastic fantasy to indulge.

I don't think Chuckles is too far off the money for a Bo that regularly flown and maintained to a high standard. I have had numerous 100 hourlies in the $3000-3500 range - no ADs, no squarks, - just in, service, inspect, gear retract test and out!

If you help (remove inspection plates, floor etc) then it should be a bit cheaper - not me, I drop it in and pick it up two days later.

Dr :8

[Piano Man]

Interesting little topic this one.

Although being a GA pilot and way to poor too own an aircraft, the BE36 Bonanza is the nicest piston single I have flown. Very envious of those who get to fly them on a regular basis.

[Jabawocky]

I agree Piano man, they are very nice to fly, if a little bit slow. :E

[Captain Nomad]

CitationJet, hope I'm not telling you how to suck eggs but my ZFW statement comes from the following regs:

CAR:
CAR138 Pilot to comply with requirements etc of aircraft’s flight manual etc

(1) If a flight manual has been issued for an Australian aircraft, the pilot in command of the aircraft must comply with a requirement, instruction, procedure or limitation concerning the operation of the aircraft that is set out in the manual.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.

(2) If a flight manual has not been issued for an Australian aircraft and, under the relevant airworthiness standards for the aircraft, the information and instructions that would otherwise be contained in an aircraft’s flight manual are to be displayed either wholly on a placard, or partly on a placard and partly in another document, the pilot in command of the aircraft must comply with a requirement, instruction, procedure or limitation concerning the operation of the aircraft that is set out:

(a) on the placard; or

(b) on the placard or in the other document.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability.

Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.




And CAO 20.16.1 (3) & (5.3) - admittedly this is for air service operations but it defines exactly what is required for W&B compliance:


3 Loading system

Where an aircraft has an approved loading system, the operator and the pilot in command shall ensure that the aircraft is loaded at all times in accordance with that system.

...........................

5.3 A load sheet shall contain the following and shall be signed by either the pilot in command, the co-pilot or an approved load controller:

(a) name of pilot in command;

(b) date;

(c) aircraft type and registration marking;

(d) aerodromes of departure and destination;

(e) empty aircraft weight;

(f) weights of:

(i) occupants;

(ii) cargo;

(iii) removable equipment;

(iv) fuel, oil, and consumables (e.g. water methanol);

(g) the loaded aircraft weight with evidence that the centre of gravity is within the approved limits;

(h) the maximum allowable weight for the flight having regard to the requirements of section 20.7.0.



Not having a Beech POH in front of me I don't know if it specifically mentions ZFW plotting in the determination of correct CofG for flight but other POH's do make specific mention of this. For example something to the effect of: "Fuel burn off does not significantly affect C.G." or more complicated like, "Add the weight and moment of all the items to the Basic Empty Weight and Moment of the airplane to determine the Zero Fuel Weight and Moment. Divide the moment by the weight to determine the C.G. arm. Locate this point in the C.G. envelope. If the point falls within the envelope, the loading meets the weight and balance requirements."

If you think back to your theory days I'll eat my hat if you successfully got a W&B question right if it involved one of the magic three points being outside the envelope (ZFW, TOW, LW). The ideology being that we are always planning for the worst case scenario. The last thing you want in that desperate moment of using your fixed reserves in anger is to find that you have an aircraft that is slowly becoming uncontrollable or very difficult to control...

[P51D]

CJ
I've been involved in my F33A for about 7 years. Flown Piper retracts, C182RG, C210 etc, but none of them match the F33A. She's a humdinger, plan 165kts and she regularly cleans that up. The most I fly with is 3 pob, but mostly 2 so CofG not an issue. It is a very solid aeroplane and Bill Cox of Plane and Pilot had it as his No1 before the Mooney Ovation came along, but that was around 2000. I budget for Annuals costing me around $5k but I maintain to Beech standards. I wouldn't swap it for anything else and for my licence type she does it all, IFR etc. My peers who fly mine from QF captains, ex military etc love flying it - it's a hot ship pocket rocket, no doubt about it.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Reur - "if a little bit slow".......HUMP!!!!

And wot has 4 seats, carries LOTS of bags, and goes fairly fast?

A bit like the 'old days' Jab, when a mate in a Mooney with 180HP, would 'pace me' in a Comanche 250 with 250HP....and claim superior performance.

But the real catch was I had HIS luggage on board as well as ours and 4 bums, because it wouldn't FIT in his...!!

Horses for courses....:=:=

:p.

[Jabawocky]

Griffo, I think you took a bait, I was fishing for Forkie's :E

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

:E







Plus enough words to post a reply

[CitationJet]

Thanks for all the replies, keep them coming!

P51D, any particular things to watch out for airframe wise??

[kingtoad]

Be aware of wing bolts insp/replacement requirements. Flap & undercarriage motor & actuator o'haul requirements. Watch out for Beech parts prices. (although occasionally they are quite reasonable). And now the new elevator cable AD.

Thread drift ... does anyone else think we could get an AD requiring replacment of all flight control cables every 15 years??

Indeed a very nice 'balus' to fly, but if you've got a load to carry you can't go past the C210 which is not quite as nice to fly, but still very enjoyable. I find the PA32 a truck in comparison.

What FTDK said about annuals is pretty right by my experience too. $3500 with no susprises or big rectifications.

[P51D]

CJ,

Unless you've already found them, a summary of the AD"s for the F33A and other Bonanza's are here;
ADs for Beechcraft 33 and 35-33 (Debonair/Bonanza) Series Aeroplanes (http://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/schedules/ad_display.asp?session=1232796960&pc=PC_90830&sched=under&toc=BEECH33)

My aircraft lives in a fairly high salt content type area and is hangared. Since ownership, I've had to rebuild the starbord oleo but that's about it. All AD's, including the recent one re the forward elevator cable, have been complied with, although the exisiting cable is in very good condition, but CASA knows best!! All the flooring was removed to do this work so it was good to inspect her internally for corrosion. Nothing visible, as it was corrosion proofed in the factory and is a 1992 model. I agree with Chuck that if you keep on top of things then it is less of an issue. Wing bolts are coming up this year, but I was ready for that. There has been slight surface corrosion on the elevators but that's pretty well it.

[gassed budgie]

Wing bolts are coming up this year, but I was ready for that.

Another example of the lunacy and sheer stupidity that CASA manages to come up with from time to time.