View Full Version : No jobs yet.... type rating? eaglejet? what should I do?
29th Jan 2012, 13:50
I am currently applying to all the jobs I can find that don't require type ratings on their recruitment sites, but they all seem to answer me that they prefer type rated pilots anyway..... what should I do? I'm hearing different views from everyone I talk to.
Some of my friends tell me to just get a type rating and the jobs will come. (but then theres the question of will they even hire me without the 500 hours on type they all talk about)
Then some people tell me to do a line training course with eaglejet (please no preaching about how bad p2fly schemes are cos most of you who do, have been pilots for years and havent got a clue what guys like me are going through at the moment, including huge debt, working menial jobs, and clicking away on the pc waiting for a miracle)
My problem and question is.... what do i do? can anyone give me advice?
DO i stick to my guns and hope some company will come around and hire me as a low time pilot with no type? (by the way Ryanair is pretty much out of the question as i failed my IR the first time and they just told me NO as if i'm not good enough)
DO i get the type rating and hope some company will hire me without the 500 or so hours on type?
or DO i just indebt myself even further and go work for free for a year or so in indonesia on a pay to fly scheme?
please serious advice only as im in the midst of making the most difficult decision of my life!
:ugh: What has aviation come to?
29th Jan 2012, 14:10
Spanair bankrupt: +400 pilots at home, rated on A320, experienced and now searching a job. Think about.
I suggest you to wait until better economic period comes on again. If you do a SSTR + LT, you have a "job" for 1 year and at the end your (dramatic) situation will be the same as now.
29th Jan 2012, 14:49
I know two flight instructors under 1000TT (mostly SEP FI) who both got a jet airline job in the past month. Neither bought a type rating nor time on type. One will have the type rating paid for by the airline (National carrier), the other will have to purchase the type rating through the airline (an LCC Not Ryanair).
The number 1 reason why they got into an interview was because of who they knew in the airline. The way BigNumber talks, I would think he works for EagleJet.
29th Jan 2012, 15:48
(please no preaching about how bad p2fly schemes are cos most of you who do, have been pilots for years and havent got a clue what guys like me are going through at the moment, including huge debt, working menial jobs, and clicking away on the pc waiting for a miracle)
Maybe this is where you're going wrong? Why not actually get out and network?
29th Jan 2012, 17:59
Maybe this is where you're going wrong? Why not actually get out and network?
I see where you're coming from and I agree that it's good to do so, but I have been emailing lots of people and calling some of them to no avail.
Is there a specific place to find these people and where to meet them? id lvoe to have a chat with a few chief pilots and give them my cv but where do I meet them?
All the pilots I know are relatively new, low time guys who work as FO's so they pretty much have no leverage in the companies.
29th Jan 2012, 18:44
The number 1 reason why they got into an interview was because of who they knew in the airline. The way BigNumber talks, I would think he works for EagleJet.
That's fine for some, but does that mean that it's just a little club noone else can get into?
As for BigNumber I don't think it's so bad if he does work for them. i'd be doing the same i think. only thing is that its a huge decision to make whether im gonna go for it or not. I'd rather exclude every other possibility first.
im not gonna give up but i need a real solution and i think Big Number is the only one who came up with a viable one.
29th Jan 2012, 21:05
I understand your position, I am in the the exact same position and have been for coming up on 2 and a half years now. I havnt been able to do any flying inbetween with paying off debt and saving for IR renewals etc.
I have been thinking of doing a TR myself, not least for the experience but if it even gives me the smallest chance of a job, I would risk it. Any time I bring it up in conversation I get slated for 'ruining aviation' but these comments are coming from people flying on a daily basis were as I am packing shelves for the foreseeable future. So for those who say dont p2f, what would you do in my position? :ugh:
29th Jan 2012, 21:11
Respect to you Cheerypickers. ive been in this situation for about 2 and a half years too. at least i know im not alone. there must be a way out!
29th Jan 2012, 21:14
Bignumber, I agree with you that RYR is a glorified pay to fly scheme. only advatage is that they pay you... if only EJ could come up wiht a scheme that offered even the most minimum of wages for this scheme would be ideal. id go for it tomorrow.
If I believed in God - I would pray for P2F and SSTR to stop every day!
Sorry guys, but if you one day 20 years from now wants to be in the pointing end of a nice jet - and being able to pay the mortgage and see your family some times. Then stop this!
How hard it may seem, there is ONLY one thing to do! Wait, wait, wait, right now the planet is full with unemployed fATPL's and even experienced rated pilots. If young punks continue to P2F and SSTR there will be no real FO jobs in 20 years!! And if your lucky you can pay your own upgrade...
Your chance is out there, but not now and maybe not in the next year, so save your money, go get a job that pays the bills or study something else, keep current, and wait for the market to pick up..... Unless of course you can look in the mirror and say that 20 years from now flying is the pay itself, then go on buy your rating and pay to work...
But some of us try to make a living here, and move up to the big bucks one day....and for every P2F bloke, that day moves further away...
29th Jan 2012, 21:43
"Ryanair is a glorified pay to fly scheme, only advantage is they pay you".
Not really pay to fly then is it? Most jobs in the UK (turboprop and jet) that accept low hour "wannabes" require a SSTR. You may not like it but that's the way it is!
29th Jan 2012, 22:26
So you all started your intergrated/modular courses what 3 years ago? A year into the biggest global meltdown since the great depression in the 30's. It seems most of you have large debts to pay meaning you managed to borrow money at this time which is a miracle in itself (Thanks Dad for Mortgaging the house!) This on its own is scary.
It now comes as a surprise that there are very few jobs around? I like the quote about how tough it is now and us older guys don't know what we are talking about. I remeber in the late 80's early 90's when the last recession was on I had trouble getting a job at a supermarket. I only wanted to do some hours at night and on the weekends but I was sitting waiting for an interview with 30 to 40 year old people applying for the same job.
Last time I checked every generation has had it easier than the one before. Try borrowing the money for a CPL in the 80's and see how far you would have got. Once upon a time you needed 700 hours for a CPL.
29th Jan 2012, 23:45
Chris !! close ur eyes and join eagle jet international !! atleast it will put u somewhere !! instead of sitting just move ur buds and get ur a$$ in there !! take loan no problem atleast u will work hard and when u get the job u can start paying back !! but sitting like this ideal wont give u anything bro !!
try to go for eagle jet or try to search up south africa !!
30th Jan 2012, 00:00
Why would you give advice to someone else about signing up for eaglejet if you haven't even done so yourself?
30th Jan 2012, 01:26
Guys, I just want to make it clear to everyone that I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm just looking for the right direction. I can appreciate the fact that others have had it hard and i don't doubt it at all, im just saying that every generation is slightly different and has challenges of its own. In ours i guess its the pay to fly problem caused by people enjoying filling their pockets just a tad too much.
With that said, Ryanair is pay to fly cos u gotta pay 28000 euros to get in, which is quite a bit more than just a type on its own.... and of course the additional interview and sim assesment fees. oh and the fact that I know some pilots who had a 737 type but were still told that they had to redo the type and pay the money to get in..... so pay to fly or not, in my opinion they are crooks.
Kip, Tak for din svar og jeg kan se hvor du kommer fra med at sige at hvad du siger. Jeg er bare traet af med at vente og jeg tror du kan maske forstaa dette. (sorry for the danish there everyone) what im trying to say is that I would rather pray for there to be enough jobs for all of us to live happily doing what we love to do. im not trying to say pay to fly schemes are right, i just wanna get in that seat!!! and as a wise man once said "a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do" and if thats what it is then so be it.
Besides as I recently read in an aviation magazine that according to Boeing, Airbus and ICAO, the number of airliners will double in the next 15 years, and ther will therefore be a shortage of pilots. I dont think the pay to fly schemes will last long seeing as airlines will supposedly be fighting to find pilots. Im just not ready to wait around and find out if theyre right or not.
Keep the comments coming, its excellent. Thanks everyone again for your time and thoughts.
30th Jan 2012, 03:20
I finished training in September of 2008 and only landed my first job in May of this year, therefore I do know what you're going through. Obviously every individuals situation is different but the sense of despair and angst is a sentiment that many on these forums can share, you are not alone, far from it.
I was only able to achieve a breakthrough through pure nepotism, I have no qualms in admitting that, but prior to this I really did exhaust every avenue (though the options available are limited).
To those who say 'stop being lazy, go and tow gliders or do aerial photography' please do a quick calculation of how many of these jobs are going nation/worldwide and how many people would be more than willing to do this for free.
To those who advocate P2F: YOU ARE RUINING THE AVIATION INDUSTRY!!! Only joking! :ugh: The people who say this to you are not in your position, neither can they comprend what you are feeling. In my lowest moments (which were pretty god damn low) I seriously considered Eaglejet and the ilk. Eventually I decided against it, not on moral grounds but simply because after proper research it became clear that risks clearly outweighed any potential rewards.
I guess the best advice I can give you is:
Go and visit as many airfields as you can, ask for the CFO, explain your situation, offer to do any sort of work, on the reception, volunteer fire crew, making the teas, whatever it may be. That is how you start a network, from the bottom up, don't just go barging into the training captains office at BA.
Also, keep your chin up, remember that happiness could be waiting just around the corner be it inside or outside the aviation world, also get off Pprune for a while, you will not miss it and it will not miss you. ;)
Oh and just so you know, life can still be a heck of a bi*ch even when you do fly a shiny jet for a living nor does it give you any immediate justification for your existence.
30th Jan 2012, 03:40
you have 2 choices: sit at home or pay to fly.
I have chosen the p2f and I am very happy of my choice, at least I am not watching TV.
in 5 years, you will ask your self "and now what I do"?
30th Jan 2012, 04:01
What's the scenario of this Line Training? I mean would yo be able to log any hours? Are you going to stay current with this line training?
30th Jan 2012, 11:45
Hi Chris ,I believe we all agree that in an ideal aviation world, it should be enough with your comercial multi & instrument licence to get a flying job in Europe ,unfortunately for you ,those days are long gone ,I did my initial training in USA back in 1993-94 converted to JAA in 2001 just after 9/11 and I´ve got my first flying job in 2009 after I tried and tried on internet like you with 550hTT and NO type rating to offer , unfortunately for me ,I had to earn that money working ,thats why it took me so long ,after completing one course ,had to save for the next one then MCC then renewals medicals then ATR type and the list goes on and on as you know .......if you can search on internet soon you`ll find out the best type ratings are A320 B737 ATR and Q400, but forget about getting your first flying job in Europe with no hours on type ,unless you are very very lucky ,start looking for chances in Asia ,Africa basically where no one wants to go .......
30th Jan 2012, 18:51
Ryan Air is a slightly lesser form of P2F: you pay for CV, Interview, TR and then you are um not an employee but go into a holding pool under current CAE scheme as a contractor.
Wait for the call whilst the debt mounts........
30th Jan 2012, 19:05
Keep stacking shelves if it pays the bills ! I worked many low paid jobs in a previous recession from welding Ford cars to postman. One US company in the UK gave just 5 days leave a year - I took unpaid leave to get some flight training in. Almost 4 years looking for better jobs - and they did eventually come after many 100s of CVs. This was back in the day when a CPL needed 700h minimum time.
Then National to JAR licence changes meant I missed the ATPL by about 50 night hours and didn't get a JAR one for another 7 years (9/11, SARS, requirement for JAR25 and 500h Multi Crew)! Since then I've been paid pretty well to fly many machines from puddle jumpers, through TPs to Jets.
If you love flying you may have to put ambitions on hold for a while but they don't have to die for the sake of a LoCo CEOs P2F bonus!
30th Jan 2012, 19:11
because i got 2 friends they had there training in there so from there experience and by looking them where they are right NOW so i decided to give him some advice you see !!
still its one of the advice from me mate !! rest is upto him !!
God gifted everyone with brain !! get advices from ppl and do what is right for ya !!
30th Jan 2012, 19:20
YellowSub: "To those who say 'stop being lazy, go and tow gliders or do aerial photography' please do a quick calculation of how many of these jobs are going nation/worldwide and how many people would be more than willing to do this for free."
Flying for free is not half as bad as P2F ! How many glider pilots/owners do you know? How many parachutists have you bought a beer for (post jump!).
As an FI you may start on £10 per trial lesson and end up working for OAA for £50k as an IRI.
Why pay for BigNumber to go on holiday to his villa in S France?
The key is not to spend big money in a recession with no prospect of paying it off in the next 5 years. Take the small steps - less outlay, less risk. Even if you only manage to fly 12 hrs a year but find other paid work to keep the vision going it's a positive step.
4th Feb 2012, 08:40
Let me fill you in on my background, I started a integrated ATPL in 2006 and due to problems here and there with the world and the financially crisis I took the decision to stop training during the ground school phase. I finished the course in Nov 2010 walked away with the fATPL. I sat in your shoes for 6 months thinking what do I do, I followed up everyone I knew who knew someone, or brothers sisters mothers you get the picture. All to no avail. I was unlucky because I ran out of time on my first sitting of ATPLs that RYR would not consider me for interview and then I thought my luck changed when Jet 2 started recruiting late last year.
However I know for a fact 2 of the low time FO positions went to people already working in the company in a ground roll who had ATPL's so there in lies something to think about, a way in. Doing anything from making teas as some of my learned colleagues have pointed out. But ideally something that will give you experience in the field, these chaps came from the operational side.
However into one of these guys training he was not put forward for the LST on the type rating he paid for and was let go. He is not happy and he is adamant with the collapse of Astreus he was over looked for those who entered the company, im not well informed and this is simply what I have been told, I cannot justify it as the truth.
So as some of the others have pointed there are plenty of FO's with experience looking for jobs too. What I believe however this is a European and certainly North American problem. I believe you should consider leaving the box and looking further afield, the likes of Malaysia and Indonesia and the carriers with huge order books and from countries that you do not consider to have the infrastructure to support them i.e indigenous flying schools.
So let me tell you what I did, i worked a job I hated for 6 months and bought the bullet. I self funded a type rating, now I know that after borrowing 75k or however much it cost you to don the ME/IR CPL the last thing you want to do is spend more money. However my own research suggested at the time that all it could do was improve your chances on a CV level and it kept me flying, as also pointed out our skills are finite and they do leave us quite rapidly in some cases especially so with those of us flying machines with complex scans. So yeah I went full steam into a type rating with a company based in the UK in Gatwick and Burgess hill, now the reason why it was affordable was in my situation I was borrowing money from family as my debt level was already maxed, and I was able to stay with family while I trained, another cost saving.So on completion of everything I though brilliant lets join the band wagon of those looking again, but as im sure you know everywhere is 500 hours on type +.
So again I sat down and thought this is something I want to do, I dont want to spend 3 or 4 years working a medial job and I dont want to finally one day get to interview and be asked so if you wanted to fly so much how come you spent 3 years working as a car dealer and only flying to renew? Obviously any good HR person knows the world we are in but I think of it purely on a me vs the world kind of level, what sets me apart, im not saying the merits of the individual will be over looked. However I do believe the guy who is sat next to you at interview who is say fresh out of boot (worst case scenario) will look an advantage, in my eyes the Chief captain or whoever is conducting the interview will believe he has current hands on experience, fresh from training and a learning environment and more likely to succeed should we wish to type rate him and so forth. I know this is a generalisation but I am lucky to know someone who works HR for virgin and its what she told me to think about.
So to continue my tail I continued to apply, in some cases I got the thank you emails but we require 300, 500 hours time on type and if our situation changes we will let you know emails, apply in 6 months basically. So what I did was I kept my options open, I applied to eagle jet and put my name on the list because contrary to popular belief it is popular, I have known people wait 4 to 6 months for a place. Some with stipulations such as having 6 months at least valid on your rating before starting, so again a added cost to keep in mind. So when the time came in November last year and I got the email saying we have a place for you in December I took a long hard thing. I weighed my options and decided if financially I could do it, again this stuff costs money. The saving grace was the scheme im on guarantees a 1 year contract at the end of the line, although this has now been changed to 2 with the option of renewing. So the risk was worth the reward and now im sat here in Indonesia saying since the time I said yes and paid and passed the sim checks I have not looked back. I know those of us will argue I am contributing to the problem and I understand where they are coming from and some peoples beliefs are forever taint the ground I walk on, I accept there criticism, however my dream was to fly and thats what I set out to do. I know that within 12 months I will make enough to pay back the cost of the line, live and to afford the repayments from my initial training. So for me I took a risk and so far so good.
Flight training and justifying the cost is down to the individual, I know some people who go down the degree route as a fall back to there flight training which in the world we live in now you can understand, certainly during a recession, but like I said I wanted to fly. So yes its a heavy debt burden, but you have to network, if you consider a scheme like this get to know those who have gone before, hear the horror stories and the silver lining, in my experience its those who have been burnt that sing loudest so bare that in mind, we all know people who seriously exaggerate stories and claims. Just ask yourself how long you can afford to sit still and how long you cant, aviation moves with the times. Question is if people think P2F schemes will stay or if they will go. I cant see them going any time soon, even with type ratings from RYR.
I hope this helps.
4th Feb 2012, 13:53
I struggle to see how a pay2fly scheme will help anyone in Europe in the short term. Short term being the next 1 to 2 years.
I feel for the guys staring at their computers for hours a week waiting for a miracle. I did the same thing for 2 years from 2004 to 2006. I realised how tough the market was (and those were the good times) and managed to get a job which I enjoyed in the consular section of one of our embassies which paid the bills and kept me flying. I wasn't flying for a living, but tried not to dwell too much on that, because I knew I was in the same boat as everyone else.
Finally I got my opportunity flying turbo props. Of course now I have a new complaint, I'm stuck flying turbo props! I have nearly 5000 hours, ATPL, 2500 hours command on part 23 and 25 aircraft, TRE certificate and nobody with shiny jet aircraft will look at me because I dont have enough Jar 25 time, or EFIS time or 1000 hrs plus on medium jet. The list is endless. I have never failed an IR, TR or anything, I have great references but I can't get my foot in the door.
There is a way off of my turboprop however. PAY2FLY! :ugh: can you believe it. With all that time, command experience, instructor and examiner and if I want to get an interview in our current economic climate I have to fork out over 25,000 euros to fly a 737 for 8 months for nothing. I can't afford to support my family with the current T and C's offered to F/O's in Europe partly due to the countless number of newbies willing to fly for nothing.
Now, before I get attacked by the wannabes for sounding ungrateful considering I am flying for a living, believe me I'm not. I love my job, I thank my lucky stars that I have a job at a stable company and can support a family with a reasonably good lifestyle. I feel so fortunate I am not in the same boat as those guys at Spanair, Malev or the 1000's of guys looking for work.
I seem to be straying from my initial point of Pay2fly not helping you too much in the next couple of years. When I look at the websites for most airlines in the UK, they explain that they have fulfilled their pilot quotas for the foreseeable future. Next point is that many of the carriers are opting for these mentored integrated schemes which leaves the self sponsored or modular guys with little chance at the moment. Last point is there are 1000's of guys like myself, or the poor folks from the likes of Spanair practically bulldozing the doors of these carriers down.
Finally, at my current employer I am involved in recruitment and filtering through CVs. We have an unbelievable amount of guys apply with an A320 or 737 rating and 500 hours on type. Funny that considering we don't even fly those types. Of course these have been out of work for quite a while from carriers that didn't announce any layoffs. I wonder if this is telling us something about these pay2fly schemes.....?
4th Feb 2012, 14:27
I'm really glad to hear that it goes all well for you and that you don't look back anymore! But my question is: how does your family feel about this? Do you have a women, children and things like that?
4th Feb 2012, 14:31
An integrated course, a self funded type rating and then a pay to fly line programme... to get a one year contract in Indonesia.
That should put things in perspective for anyone who had any doubt about the state of this industry!
4th Feb 2012, 16:21
I'm going to continue on a little from my post #27 because the more I browse the forums today the more I see this very same topic coming up again and again!
Quick question. Many people keep saying they want to apply for the pay2fly schemes because companies want 500 hours on type. Please enlighten me. How many airlines are currently recruiting pilots with 500 hours on a 737 or an A320? I dont know any. There are adverts for pilots with 1500 to 2000 hours total time of which 500 should be on type. If you are a fresh fATPL holder, please don't be so naive to think that the 750 hours TT you have on completion of the pay2fly scheme is enough to land you a job. Now your stuck with a type rating that is about to lapse, not enough time to be hired by a employer recruiting direct entry F/O's and a debt you can't pay off because you have no career to do so.
Secondly, please avoid telling the pilots who are fortunate enough to be employed by an airline to stop airing their views regarding pay2fly and that their advice, which many of you don't want to hear, is useless as it is all negative and doom and gloom. May I remind you that these pilots are the ones that may be recruiting you at the end of your training, and you are only increasing the resentment we have towards these schemes.
Thirdly, may I remind you that these pilots who offer the blunt, gloomy outlook on the industry we love so much, are the same pilots who offered this same advice to you in 2008. Did anyone listen, no. Are you in the same position they said you would be in 3 years down the line, yes. So why complain so much about the advice that seems so negative? They offered their 50 cents before you began training and they were right. Obviously it might be time to listen to the advice, rather than constantly rejecting it because it is not what you want to hear.
Next, be careful when you choose to buy a pay2fly scheme in a third world country. It can be difficult to get employed elsewhere. At my company, we tend to reject the CVs from the 500 hr jet pay2fly schemes. Reason being is when we have employed them in the past, it has become evident that they paid to fly because they were not competent enough to pass an interview to get employed to fly. Now don't think I am generalising everyone. There are some fine pay2fly guys who I know who had the funds to gain experience. However all but one were released following the scheme and are now worse off than they were when they completed their fATPL.
Finally, from what I have read many of the pilots who are encouraging pay2fly are currently enrolled on the schemes or still working at minimum wage following the scheme. When pilots explain that pay2fly is damaging T and C's it is, and when you have been employed for 10 years struggling to move up in your career you will understand why, and will hold the same resentment.
I understand what people are going through, I really do. I've been there. All of us have. It is not the right time to be a new pilot just now. Europe is failing, the Chinese property bubble is about to burst dramatically, Japan has a dept dreadfully above its GDP, AMR are laying off over 13,500 staff of which at least 400 are pilots from AA, Malev failed, Spanair failed, Thomas Cook is in trouble, the list goes on. Add to that the 1000's of guys that are already looking for work and the future seems bleak. Be patient, find a job doing something else for the time being. Do the old fashioned thing and network. In a couple of years I'm sure things will be looking up.
4th Feb 2012, 16:39
Don't heed the advise of those sat comfortably in the front right seat; resplendant in their gold bars. They just don't want you to join in.... far better that you get a job dropping parachutes at the local grass strip!
It's the funny thing about PPRuNe. When you start here you live in the wannabes forum. Then you get a gig and you leave and barely ever come back. It's been a few years since I ventured in here.
It doesn't lessen the shock of reading a comment like that though.
When I started my training I did so with the guarantee of at least a job interview with an airline through the old mates network. Starting flight training without a hand up waiting at the other end seemed like financial suicide. I witnessed many throw themselves off that financial precipice time and time again and alter the course of their life in some case probably irretrievably. Then they decided to pile up some more debt in one last desperate roll of the dice to try and recover it all.
Some of you are very young as was I when I set out on my career. That's not condescending, it's just a fact. With that often comes a total lack of understanding how long it takes to pay off the sums of money involved. €40-50K just for a P2F scheme, it's really hard to understand the grinding monthly debt and the length of time it takes to pay that off.
You talk about teaching from a pulpit of sand. It's true that I pad for my rating on the 737 but that was for a permanent contract of employment and after a year online quite a decent salary. You guys will be turfed back out at the end of your line training, of dubious, dubious quality. A low houred F/O. Ten a penny, common as muck. Competing with Malev and Spanair guys with 5 figure total times in their logbooks.
Please don't do it.
It's not because we don't want you to join some cosy club, it's because I don't want you to piss your life away and live a never ending grind of crippling monthly payments.
4th Feb 2012, 19:18
I am lucky in the sense that I am young (24) free and single. I know that it makes the situation easier as it makes the burden less but I would be lying if I said it was easy for my family to stomach. Ofcourse I sat there and explained the situation and how things are going, they are not from a aviation background and this can make the explanation difficult as people have a hard time swallowing any form of idea that you would pay for a job, however this is mirrored in society today with people leaving university with degrees in Law and working in a fast food restaurant, almost criminal
I was lucky on the other hand my uncle has experience in the industry and suggested I take what's on offer as the money was available and unlike a bank I did not have to worry about interest. Just as long as they get it back which is a massive boost, when you do these things its not about the financial implication but also the financial stress, how does one perform when borrowing the money and the chance you fail(heaven forbid it) but its a situation you have to be prepared for. Boils down to sacrifices to get where you want to be, women went on hold for me for a while and having a JAA license it means I still have to make the annual trip back to europe for license validation which helps.
Olie23 Its the world we live in, cant do a dorothy, click our heals and be back in Kansas being peachy, if turbulence is the buzz word of our time we have to get use to it. Whats worse though, shedding out for the ATPL getting into a load of debt and having to work full time and forgo flying. Or just using what you have available, granted individual factors plays a part. My view is simply take the opportunity you are given provided of course you can afford it and you take into account contingency. After all you join a P2F scheme and the belief is a bunch of cowboys who cant fly, have the attitude of a dead toad and think they can walk onto a flight deck. I assure you this is not the case. For example you arrive here and get the standard briefings with the company regarding the rules and regulations, classes on the SOPS and you have 2 training sorties or standardisation simulators. You then have a company check which is a hell of a lot more gruelling then the LST. Its roughly a 40% pass rate as unfortunately what Desert Budgie says holds true, there are plenty of those characters that cant fly with money out here.
What I will say about Indonesia is having been here only a couple of months I am surprised by the people showing up with just a forzen ATPL or equivalent and knocking on a door and getting offered something by ways of pay for a tr or some people going to work straight onto a caravan. I am not encouragin or condoning P2F schemes, as mentioned it was the option for me and I took it anyone else has to decide themselves if it is the right move for them and there are no alternatives to the individual. It was when my alternatives where or seemed exhausted did I take the decision to spend more money. I love flying and its all I ever wanted to do, the cliche of the bug we all catch on our first ever flights, to what extremes people go through to make it a reality are there own choices. There will always be a ethical debate on the subject which is already ethically flawed. Again we are victims of the world we live in and we need to do our best to get where we need to be, some of us will moan and groan about it, but really you have to play the cards were dealt.
4th Feb 2012, 21:14
I understand how you feel. I was in the same position as you a few month ago. I finished my training in July 2010 and I got hired in November 2011. For about 15 months I was sending CVs all around with no positive answers.
One thing I was sure about is that I would never ever ever join any kind of pay 2 fly program, please, just forget about it! What I would do if I were you, is join a flying school with lots of students and do an instructor rating. You will become a better pilot and get paid.
To get hired, I talked directly to the owner of a small charter company and showed him how motivated I was to fly for him. I would never had got hired by just sending my CV.
4th Feb 2012, 21:29
Okay as a rule I generally give these types of discussion a miss and don't really talk about my own career path but I decided to make an exception.
I spent 3 years working for an airline as Cabin Crew, I loved every minute and met some great people, travelled to some fantastic places and gained some insight along the way. However since being a tiny sprogg having sat up on the flight deck of several monarch/Britania/flying colours aircraft watching the crew at the front do their thing (when you still could), I knew that my ultimate goal was to get into those sheepskin seats at the front.
Getting there however seemed to be a fairly difficult and costly process (I was 16 when 9/11 happened and cadet schemes in my home country died a death).
I resolved that I had to make it happen. The options that were open at the time however were not particularly plentiful and were certainly costly. I work, save and go modular/self improver (cheaper but still expensive). Or I get a loan and go integrated (Which I was, as it happens, unwilling to do, my parents are wonderful but I could never ask them to risk their life's work for an fATPL).
So I came to a conclusion, I was going to have to be patient. Perhaps very patient. I took steps to reduce my outgoing expenditure so I could save money for Plan C - move back home and go to the nearby flying school and do it the old fashioned way. Plan B was to find a part sponsored scheme that was affordable or to get into the CTC scheme which at the time offered unsecured loans and good chances of permanent contract. Plan A was the whispers of airlines beginning Cadet Schemes again. After another 3 years Plan A & B came along at once.
I chose Plan A, it meant sacrificing a few things like living in the UK etc. but the offer was too good pass up. Another 3 years later I am now happily ensconced at the front of a nice aircraft not having paid a cent so far for the training (I will be on a reduced salary but hey, I can live with that).
Incredibly lucky? Yes. Smug? Perhaps a little. But the point is it happened without having to sell my soul to the bank (or worse mortgaging my parents home). What I did have to do is wait 6 years from when I decided to go do it to getting into the RHS which many experienced flyers would tell you is still pretty lucky.
These schemes and the Part Sponsored ones are few and far between and competition is fierce I know. But ask yourself if they would be if when loco's like FR and EZ started expanding at a rate of knots a few years back potential new pilots had said "No I won't pay for the privilege"?
I personally would have been willing to wait a lot longer had I needed to. I know society has a bit of a get there yesterday attitude now but surely the wait makes it all a little bit sweeter?
I still sometimes think Plan C would have been the most fun and I want to go back and do some of the steps I skipped at some point, I think flying steam around shitty NDB only airports at some point would not only make me a better pilot but would provide an exciting challenge. But my way in was different (maybe easier?)
I suppose that's the point of my long ramble. The way in. There are plenty and yes some of them are P2F etc, but there are others that perhaps just require a little more patience and maybe a little more sacrifice but in the long run you and the industry will be better for it.
I hope you all reach the goal you are hoping for. Best of luck and please excuse my incoherent ramblings.
Quick question. Many people keep saying they want to apply for the pay2fly schemes because companies want 500 hours on type. Please enlighten me. How many airlines are currently recruiting pilots with 500 hours on a 737 or an A320? I dont know any.
Well, I don't have the time to check again, but I can assure you at least 1 on this list offers the job for the TR +500H. And I'm going to say just 1 knowing it's far more than that. I've checked 570 companies websites from the 15th Jan. and trust me, you can see it more often than you think. So if someone like me has done his homework, probably is thinking that a p2f line training has some light at the end of the tunnel.
Africa charter airline
Air Hong Kong
Air India Express
Global Supply Systems
Star Marianas Air
Swiss executive aviation
Transmile Air Services
Ukraine International Airlines
Walker Flying Service
6th Feb 2012, 10:51
It would be interesting if we could do an anonymous poll for everyone who has P2F and see who has regreted it or not.
6th Feb 2012, 20:00
Based on what you have quoted from my previous post you are correct, there are jobs for 500 hour rated guys. However you left out the second and most import statement in that paragraph.
'There are adverts for pilots with 1500 to 2000 hours total time of which 500 should be on type. If you are a fresh fATPL holder, please don't be so naive to think that the 750 hours TT you have on completion of the pay2fly scheme is enough to land you a job. Now your stuck with a type rating that is about to lapse, not enough time to be hired by a employer recruiting direct entry F/O's and a debt you can't pay off because you have no career to do so.'
You will find that most of the airlines you quoted require far more than just 500 hours on type. I know, I've looked at them for my own career progression. Then you must consider do you speak the language? This can be a requirement, particularly with some European carriers. Do you hold an unfrozen ATPL? Do you have work eligibility in some of these countries? Once you have run through the filter you will find that list becomes rather small.
Now, for the few positions you may be eligable for, you will be competing with every other rated pilot who may have thousands more hours on type prior to their furlough from a major airline.
Telstar makes an excellent point
'Some of you are very young as was I when I set out on my career. That's not condescending, it's just a fact. With that often comes a total lack of understanding how long it takes to pay off the sums of money involved. €40-50K just for a P2F scheme, it's really hard to understand the grinding monthly debt and the length of time it takes to pay that off.'
I make a reasonably good wage. Not spectacular, but enough to pay the bills and go on holiday once a year. The first few years I was flying money was tight, and with a high cost of living, car repairs, insurances etc came growing credit card dept. To add to that I was getting married and that was going to cost a fortune! I decided to take out a 60 month loan of about £20,000 pounds to consolidate my dept and have money to put towards my wedding. Now I curse every month when £500 comes off of my account for things I bought 3 years ago and didn't need! But at least I have an income to pay it off, and I had an income prior to taking out the loan.
If you have a spare 50 grand kicking about and fancy taking a year off to fly for nothing go ahead. You obviously can afford it and don't need a deposit for a house. However if you are taking out more money, or someone is re mortgaging their house for you to pursue your hobby don't do it. It could be a decision that affects your life for years to come.
Get another job, keep current, save up for a type rating for the future incase you are OFFERED A JOB that requires you to pay for one. Join your local flying club and network. Be patient and your time will come.
And Cherrypickers, I don't think you need a poll. There are plenty of stories on these forums.
Good luck guys
Well Desert Budgie, you are right and I mostly agree with what you said, I just wanted to point out that the position of TR+500 is there in enough quantity to make you think.
Now you are not completely fair either, because the problem with the language, the total time, the fATPL, etc, is the same with or without the TR+500. A new pilot with 200TT, out of 500 companies in europe will be only eligible for 20 or 30, now if you get in your CV a TR+500, you might open your chances to 50, which still sucks, but at least you have more chances.
Moreover, you are forgetting that with 750TT (500jet), of course you won't find a job for the TR you have, but now you are eligible also for the F/O openings in small jets and turboprop, which if I recall properly, you can see dozens of offers for 300TT in jet, 100TT in medium or heavy a/c, 100TT in commercial operations, etc. So if I follow with the previous example, now you increase your chances to 100, which is far better than the 20-30.
But as I said earlier, I agree with you and the idea of not getting in a big debt, because you won't open your options enough to be worth 50K
I just got my license on december, and I don't consider yet the P2F option, not because I don't have the money (which I don't), it's just because I want to try the old way of sending CV's and knocking on doors. But I've been thinking lately that the expenses of keeping myself current for the next 4-5 years, will add roughly almost enough to pay a line training right now (a cheap one, maybe not the 320 or 737).
The question here is: Is it worth it also to play the lottery of finding a job the old way, while you have to pay to keep your licenses current, and if you fail in finding a job for 4-5 years, have spent just a bit less the amount of money for a P2F scheme, but this time, you are 5 years older, without TR and 300-500 hours jet?
Desert Budgie, look what I found this evening for Gulf Air, 320 F/O:
GULF1724 - Direct Entry Rated First Officers for Airbus A320 - Gulf Air (http://careers.sniperhire.net/gulfairframe/VacancyDetail.aspx?VacancyID=40989)
To be considered for this position you must:
Have frozen ATPL (JAA equivalent);
Be fluent in spoken and written English;
Have a current medical;
Have a total of 800 flying hours;
Have 400 on type flying hours;
Have 400 flying hours on Jet multi-crew aircraft; and
Be less than 51 years of age on the day of application.
As I said, these job offers are there more often than you think. The basic training plus the TR+500, and the missing 50-100 hours, the cheapest c152 and you are ready for it. It doesn't mean you're gonna get it, but at least you can apply.
8th Feb 2012, 01:51
What you quoted in your last post was for E190 FO's. That said what is quoted is the minimum. That's just the lowest end of the Resume spectrum they will accept. Usually you can double the hours to expect an interview.
My company has just lifted it's minimum to 1000TT and 500 hours on any TP. We have Resume's that far exceed these minimums to the point where 2000TT and 1000 hours TP will definately get you a interview and somewhere halfway may get you a phone screening.
Before you all start screaming why, it's because my boss would rather take a unemployed pilot who has bills to pay and kids to feed than a 250 hour guy who can still live at home. His exact words were "when I run out of pilot applicants who have children to feed I will gladly take on the fATPL guys and girls who are looking for a break. That won't be for a while yet though"
8th Feb 2012, 04:20
oh and by the way, Gulf air has announced layoffs and cancelled all hiring...
8th Feb 2012, 07:48
Pilotchute, is your boss aware that some low hours pilots do have bills and kids?
8th Feb 2012, 08:07
Firstly, good luck in the job hunt. As others have said, we all started with a basic CPL and a dream. I suspect the majority of us did not have a contact in a recruitment department who got us a job on a shiny jet within months of completing our training. We all faced the daunting prospect of getting a job in a highly competitive industry.
Read this book: Job Hunting for Pilots by Gregory N. Brown. It is written for the American market but most of the advice is transferable to the European market. Brown does two main things: First he give sound advice on how to network within the industry. Second, and more important, he knows how to motivate you. If you can't afford to buy a copy, send me a PM and I'll lend you my copy.
My next gem of advice: get a job. No, I am to being facetious! But get some money coming in the door, even if it's just a pub job, working the fire crew at your local airfield, or selling your body down the Old Kent Road (now I am being facetious). Having an income will keep your spirits up and put beer down your throat. Key issues.
After reading Brown's book you may have a good idea of how much you can be getting on with. Networking is the primary goal. With so many mountains of CVs arriving each morning on the mat at each AOC holder, you need to get yours to the attention of the Chief Pilot. People usually employ someone they know something about rather than an unknown quantity.
I worry about the true P2Fly schemes because they are exploitation. Any company who takes you on under one of these schemes does not care about you or your career development. A friend paid to join one of them as a last resort. He became ill and lost his medical temporarily, and his 'job' permanently. Whatever route you choose to get into to industry, make sure it's a stepping stone in your career, not something that you could easily regret.
I would not class Ryanair with the likes of Eaglejet. They will not show you much love but at least the company's obsession with training, standard operating procedures and safety will stand you in good stead. Moreover, you do get paid for working for them. Paying for the type rating is a form of exploitation but is common in the industry (however it is disguised). Doctors and lawyers also pay for their training, so you are not alone!
As I say, good luck. Starting training post 2007 is crazy, but if you have drive, determination to keep searching, and enough money to eat, eventually you will get a job (or become a far wealthier Tube Train driver)...
8th Feb 2012, 18:32
Before I say anything I want you to know I am in the same boat as all of the relatively low hours, A320 rated guys lamenting about the industry and generally unhappy about the whole thing...
But one difference...
I am quite happy in my life, I still send out the CV's, try and make the contacts and study as much as I can in my spare time (gets difficult and requires balancing the following in no particular order:partying/girlfriend/friends/family)
Qualified in 2009, I got a bar job (as MikeHotel above said which made me laugh!), have worked my ass off, repay my loans, keep flying in my spare time, and saved up enough money that a P2F scheme is now an option I can take but have decided not to. May decide to down the line but am currently waiting it out to see how others get on, quite glad I did too what with Malev and Spanair collapsing.
Its not perfect and I get upset about the whole thing from time to time, but I know that eventually my time will come, I'm sure as hell not gonna give up!
And thats not much but that helps me sleep at night
8th Feb 2012, 19:58
Any suggestion on books to buy to prepare for interviews? Ive heard about 'Ace the technical pilot interview' but seen a lot of bad reports on here about it. I know Im being optimistic but I like to be prepared :)
8th Feb 2012, 21:44
One of the only ways I know is to go to people who take self sponsored pilots. Eagle Jet is not the only one out there, there is another company in Seattle where you do get a type rating and a job. Other companies in the US are doing this. You do have to pay for your own training but if you don't want the money going down the drain, maybe it's better than nothing. I think the company is Prem Air or something like that.
8th Feb 2012, 23:18
Do you have a fATPL, 250 hours and no job with kids to feed? The fact that you went through with it (I'm assuming after 2007 you got your licence) in these economic times with that sort of responsibility is crazy.
9th Feb 2012, 06:52
Hi Pilotchute, I appreciate and understand your sentiments. However, with respect you assume too much and know absolutely nothing about me or my circumstances.
I started with a PPL in mid 2006 when jobs for newly qualified CPL/ MEIR holders were relatively plentiful (compared to today). Unfortunately for me I finished mid 2008 as the recession/ credit crunch was biting hard and airlines (XL etc) were going bust, not a lot I could do about that just bad timing that’s all.
During this time I had (and still have) the full support of my wonderful wife, who remained in employment (and still is). If I did not have that support I would stop, much as I enjoy flying I keep it in perspective and my family come first. Since the flying work prospects were so bad I reverted back to my original engineering career as a contractor which I am still doing now and provides for my family extremely well.
I have never gone into any debt at any stage and my family are well provided for and happy thanks very much.
Please accept my sincere apologies if this comes across as a bit of a rant but crass assumptions about an individual’s situation don’t work. Judging by your earlier post, your boss has a similar problem with his assumptions.
9th Feb 2012, 09:15
P2F, declining T&Cs, no jobs, unemployed pilots by the shedload are the World's way of saying, "we don't need anymore pilots". Please, for everyone's sanity, quit and move on.
9th Feb 2012, 10:40
Your post had me believe that you had embarked on a integrated course post 2007. Now that you have pointed out your situation I now know what boat your in. Your comment that low hour guys may have kids to feed is valid. Problem is 1000TT is low hours. fATPL with 250TT is considered no hours.
My boss have been in this business for over 30 years and has seen most things before. He knows when the economy is up he has to spend alot more money on training as the fATPL holders are his main source of new hires. As the economy weakens and companies go under he has a steady supply of low hour to medium hour applicants. 1k to 2k hours. This suits him fine as it brings his costs down considerably and the out of work pilots are grateful for the job.
When the cycle starts again and as long as you have kept current you will get your chance. I had a long period between finishing and getting my first gig so I know how you feel. It wasn't 4 years but the fact you still can be positive says alot.
9th Feb 2012, 12:24
Hi Pilotchute, many thanks for the reassuring words, I hope that you understand that I did not intend any disrespect or animosity to you in my earlier post.
I absolutely appreciate that your boss can pick and choose from the top of the tree at the moment and not have to bother with the low hanging fruit such as myself.
I am in an extremely fortunate position compared to most unemployed pilots in that I do have the support of a fantastic wife and I do have a well paid (non flying) job to keep me going and provide for my family and I do not have any debt so if the flying career never happens we will not lose our house.
Congratulations and kudos to yourself on having a flying job right now, all the best and stay safe.
15th Feb 2012, 21:10
from my experience, and i can feel with you since i also had this problem , dont stuck on looking for airlines and just try to get anything. do you have an IR MEP? try some island hopping riding an islander or similar, or ride even a c172 for photo flights- anything. when you are current in the aviation rumours and options will slowly grow, and you have a chance.
bying an airbus rating is in my eyes a disater. without having flown for a company on it but with a rating in the licence every who reads your cv will think you have not much in common with being a working pilot but a rich father. thats all.
12th Jun 2012, 10:21
now we are the 12th june 2012...
so how is the situation in Euroland, better or worse? or still the same?.
do you guys got a job with your line training now? where do they hire pilots with 700tt/500 hours on 320?
what is the trend in this recession which doesn't seem to end? where do you see yourself in 1-2 or 5 years?
type rating lapsed, cpl lapsed, IR gone, rusty like hell, flew only 2-3 hours a year, do you think airlines want us?
what's do you want do now, what's your plan B? buy line training maybe ???:E
I know a guy he went from pilot to cabin crew, hoping to get a job in the cockpit one day, his airline went bankrupt!
call eagleJet and tell them to save our soul. to create jobs for us!!I heared they are God with their line training at LionAir and all pilots now fly for Emirates!.what do you wait?, call them, call now!
As has been touched on so many times on both this thread and the hundreds before it, some people seem to underestimate the power of networking.
Networking is not entering your flying stats into the recruiment section of airline X.
Networking is not sitting on pprune deliberating over whether you should become a train driver instead.
Networking is not scanning through hundreds of airlines websites only to find you do not match the joining criteria.
Like so many people before you, and many after, the phrase "right place, right time" crops up time and time again! I qualified at the end of 2009; license in hand (ink still wet) - I have been where you are now, but you just have to see the positives of the situation.
You have your license now - you are extremely exployable by many other sectors within aviation. Do you realise how many companies within the industry would welcome your expertise or knowledge with open arms?
Go out there and work as cabin crew (I did!). Go work in an airport control center (I did this too!). Don't see these as tedious jobs; you are no better than the hardworking and wonderful people who do these jobs, and you will be surprised at how fun they are, and how easy it is to network!
I met all sorts of people - and heard of numerous schemes that didn't even get posted on pprune or PJN at the time... I was successful in finally landing my childhood dream towards the latter half of last year; now flying for a large UK based airline.
Even since joining I have managed to help a friend into the same airline; this time with a fully paid for TR (again on another scheme that wasnt posted on pprune or PJN - infact, less than 40 people applied!).
No one has the answer on how best to make your way into the airlines - there is no tried and tested method; whilst P2F might work out for some, it might not for others. The same could be said about SSTR, FI etc.
All i know is what worked for me. When the industry does pick up, you and the thousands of equally qualified peers will be vying for the same roles; So ask yourself, what sets you apart?.
So get out there, work any job you can within the industry. It shows willing, it demonstrates adaptability, it allows you to use the expertise you have paid for thus far, and most importantly, it gives you a chance to engage with others. Never underestimate the power of networking. It may just open the door wide enough for you to break into the industry.
It worked for me :).
13th Jun 2012, 18:06