Ditching

[Pittsextra]

Has anyone had to ditch their plane into the sea?

I'm currently discussing the merits of a complete liferaft and other safety kit with my wife for our trips overseas.

Just wanted to know others views on the subject.

[Pitts2112]

I think a better place to start would be to look up accident statistics where you'll get the global view rather than just a few hundred here on Pprune.

Air Accidents Investigation: Annual Safety Reports (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/annual_safety_reports.cfm)

[BackPacker]

There's an enormous amount of information on this at the Equipped To Survive website.

Remember it's not just the kit you're bringing along (or have on/around your body), but also the training you have had in handling it that makes the difference between living and dying.

A long while ago I thought that the ordeal was over after a successful ditching. But the statistics (from said website) show that in only 10% of ditching accidents, there are fatalities from the ditching itself. Typically because the plane is not landed under control. But once the initial ditching/egress phase is over, 50% of the people involved die from hypothermia. So once you're on the water the ordeal is just beginning.

I then did a maritime survival course which taught me a great deal about the practical aspects of surviving after the ditching. And there's a lot more to survival than just pulling on a piece of string so the liferaft inflates, after which you step aboard for a G&T.

At the end of the day, it's a risk/cost/reward thing. So far I have settled for a life vest, a drysuit (ex-dingy sailing type), a signal mirror and a rescue streamer. I'm still contemplating getting a PLB. All that stuff is carried on my body so I'm sure I can take it with me when getting out.

A liferaft sounds fantastic, and it is if you can deploy it properly and get in without difficulty. But there are a lot of drawbacks to it, and things that can go wrong. You really need to have had some serious training to use it properly.

[Pittsextra]

That's good colour thanks. With the drysuit do you actually fly in it? I can't really swim more than 10m and I too thought the cold would be the issue and thought without a liferaft you are going to be cold - so developed a view that you either do all or nothing.

I'll look at the websites and thankyou.

[trex450]

I have flown in both dingy dry suits and proper air crew ones. Try Survival 1 in Aberdeen for the made to measure suits, they have lots of pockets on them. Always wear the suit (you will not be able to put it on in the event of) and dress for the season, or more importantly the sea temperature underneath the suit. There are plenty of life jackets around from the basic pouch on your waist type but IMHO if you are serious about any prolonged over water flights then equip yourself with a life jacket that has a hood on it. If you can cover you head you increase your survival time considerably.
A cheaper option could be a basic life jacket and a wetsuit hood and gloves.
Get a PLB also then the helicopter has something to aim at and if you have any space or money left then buy a raft as well. If however your over water legs are likely to be no more than 10-20 minutes then this might be a bit over the top as it would be simpler to climb to 5000+ and minimize your time out of gliding distance from land.

[Droopystop]

The biggest problem is cold shock which increases the chance of drowning and generally its the drowning that gets you before the hypothermia. Definitely a good life jacket with a hood and designed such that it won't ride up in the water. I spend my working life over the water and don't venture out without a survival suit. Life raft would be good if it's tied down so that it won't kill you on impact, you manage to get it out once you are in the drink, it inflates and doesn't blow away and can finally manage to get in it. I think just having one without proper training offers a false sense of security.

[wiggy]

Well I haven't "ditched" a light aircraft but for other reasons I have some insight into the subject......

I spent some of my formative years spent in an environment where sea survival skills was regularly taught, practiced and sometimes had to be used in anger :ooh:. I'm glad to see your not underestimating the sea around the UK because it can at best render you immobile and unable to function very quickly and at worse kill you very quickly if you're not prepared.

Personally, no matter how "infra-dig" it seems to you or your wife I really would second/third/forth all the previous good advice you've had to wear some sort of survival suit and a lifejacket, and carry on it/in it, some sort of personal locator beacon. A life raft is a "nice to have", but as has been said you may not have time to get it out of the aircraft if you ditch, and if even you do you may not be able to board it, so invest in one only after you've got survival suits/lifejackets/PLBs.

Also be aware in a ditching (or similar) once you've hit the water and stopped all you've done is swopped one problem, surviving the landing, for another equally serious one, surviving the water - any training you can get will markedly increase your chances of survival............

Edited to add: Extra information here:Hypothermia Prevention: Survial in Cold Water | Minnesota Sea Grant (http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia)

It's worth bearing in mind for much of the year the sea temperature around the UK is below 10 celsius.

[BackPacker]

With the drysuit do you actually fly in it? I can't really swim more than 10m and I too thought the cold would be the issue and thought without a liferaft you are going to be cold - so developed a view that you either do all or nothing.

Yes, you are supposed to wear the drysuit while flying. In fact, it's a good idea to actually have it fully zipped up. Most, if not all, are made from Goretex or something similar so it's not too bad.

The first time I tried my drysuit on, it took me about twenty minutes to put on, as there's a certain knack to getting your head through the seal. And this was in a comfy living room, with help. In a GA aircraft, while dealing with an emergency, there is no way I'd be able to put it on in time. And a partly-on, or not zipped up drysuit is actually more dangerous than no drysuit at all: It doesn't do anything for insulation but greatly restricts your movement (and thus, for instance, your ability to enter a life raft) because it fills with water.

You are right that the cold is the major issue here. So underneath the dry suit you have to wear a few layers of clothing that provide insulation. Divers use special "bear suits" which are coveralls made of fleece or something similar, but for aviation emergency use you can probably get by with normal pants (jeans possibly), a t-shirt and a sweater or something like that. The main issue is that you stay dry, because air is a much better insulator than water.

As far as life rafts are concerned, remember that a life raft without a dry suit is only partly solving the hypothermia problem. You will very likely get wet before you can get into the life raft. And in the very lucky circumstance that you can step off the wing straight into the life raft, you'll probably find the life raft floor is wet from the deployment or spray. So you will have to expect to get wet in any case. Without a drysuit, that means your insulation is now gone.

Best solution is obviously a dry suit plus a life raft. Plus a life jacket in case you do get into the water. But if you have a limited budget and no training in working with life rafts (deploying them properly, turning them over if inverted, getting on board, deploying the canopy & water ballast, ...), I'd say the dry suit plus a life jacket, but minus the life raft, is probably the next best solution.

Not being able to swim 10m is not a problem at all, by the way. Where would you swim to anyway? The only thing that would conceivably be within easy swim distance of your ditched aircraft would be the life raft. And if you deploy it properly, then it's either tethered to the aircraft, or to you. So you can simply pull it towards you, or get into the water and pull yourself towards it. Other than that, conserve your energy and don't swim anywhere.

[mm_flynn]

You are right that the cold is the major issue here. So underneath the dry suit you have to wear a few layers of clothing that provide insulation. Divers use special "bear suits" which are coveralls made of fleece or something similar, but for aviation emergency use you can probably get by with normal pants (jeans possibly), a t-shirt and a sweater or something like that. The main issue is that you stay dry, because air is a much better insulator than water.


Just a bit more context. I was doing rescue duty at our sailing lake one winter day and decided to 'check out' my dry suit. We had to break ice up around the docks and slipways so the surface water temperature was likely just above 0. I was wearing normal jeans, a warm shirt and medium weight fleece, and winter weight wool socks under the dry suit and insulated sailing gloves on the hands.

I jumped in (but did not put my head underwater) and paddled around for about 15 minutes. My hands where quite cold, but still usable. My neck started to hurt from cold at the point just above the neck seal but still in and out of the water. The rest of me remained fine.

So on a cool day, you probably would be wearing about the right amount of clothing. The problem is on a hot April day when the cockpit is very warm but the water is bloody cold.

[Droopystop]

Just for perspective a North Sea helicopter pilot wears a goretex survival suit, fully zipped up and air expelled (we are discouraged from using the zip up the front style) with varying degrees of under garments. Wooly bear suits are the norm at this time of year. Over that we wear a RFD Beaufort Mk44 lifejacket with spray hood, day-night flare and PLB. One employer supplies spare air as well to aid escape. We fly aircraft fitted with emergency floats and ELTs and most modern aircraft are fitted with external life rafts. Now of course that is over kill for a quick trip over the narrow bit of the Channel on a nice day and you will have to decide on what level of investment is appropriate for the flying you do. But it shows what level of thought and experience that has gone into making a ditching as survivable as possible.

[peterh337]

These debates pop up regularly.

At one end you get the people who wear a drysuit when flying 5 mins over water.

At the other end you get ones like me who take the view that a raft is the realistic civilised solution which is acceptable to "normal" passengers, and you brief them on how to use it, and the priority will be to make a ditching after which one can get out.

I carry a Survival Products raft, the 4-man non TSO (http://www.survivalproductsinc.com/fourman.htm) version with a canopy. I think Harry M sells them. SEMS at Basildon can overhaul it.

[Pittsextra]

Firstly thank you for the effort and time taken with replies it's very kind.

I guess the channel is the usual water crossing but we do also cross the Irish sea and the latest conversation comes following thoughts of flying to Nordic countries.

Anyone doing a course on sea survival in UK?

[Rod1]

I was involved in some sea survival research for Plymouth University. One of the tests was to dump teams of 1st year undergrads into open water holding on to a fully inflated raft and see if they could get in. All the ones who had a member with previous training did, all the ones with no training failed. Now this is quite an optimistic result as the students were expecting the exercise, had all been briefed and were only in light clothing, did not have to get out of an aircraft and inflate the dingy. It was summer and the sea state was good.

At my strip we have an ex RAF guy who was involved in rescuing ditched pilots over many years and who has watched from above as several crews fail to get out of their aircraft at all, let alone get out with a 25kg lump. His take is that getting out of an aircraft with a dingy is very hard, and that getting in a 4 man dingy in average open water conditions would be impossible for Mr Average. He recommends an immersion suite and a 1 man dingy each. His theory is they are light and small to get out of the aircraft and very easy to get into. Each person needs their own PLB.

I did a lot of open water survival stuff many years ago and try very hard to avoid flying out of range of land. If you take the short crossing and fly high you will only be out of range of land for a very short time. In my aircraft this is typically 90 sec. You are also over the busiest shipping lane in the world and the chances of a warship or a suitable boat being in gliding range is quite good. The risk for longer crossings, single engine, is mush higher.

Rod1

[stickandrudderman]

A lot of good advice from people more knowledgable than me here.
I have done a survival at sea course and I can concur that getting into a liferaft if you don't know how is not at all easy.
One valuable snippet of information:
If you do have to ditch over a busy waterway, try to ditch near a small motor boat. They are the most manouverable and you stand a good chance of actually making it on board once they get alongside.
Yachts and large commercial vessels are virtually impossible to get into from the sea unless they have a special facility for such.

[BackPacker]

Over that we wear a RFD Beaufort Mk44 lifejacket with spray hood, day-night flare and PLB.

Droopystop, out of curiosity, which PLB are you using?

And do you have anything for final localization, such as a signal mirror, smoke canister, dye marker or Rescue streamer?

[Droopystop]

Backpacker,

I think it is a SARBE 6 although we are in the process of getting new ones, but I have no idea which they will be. We also have a day night flare, smoke on one end, red flare on the other.

Pittsextra,

Google Offshore Survival Training and/or RYA Survival training (Royal Yachting Association). The later would probably be better as it is more orientated (I believe) to smaller, leisure users. Unless of course you want to carry a 14 man liferaft!

[abgd]

It might seem a funny question (we discussed something similar on PPRUNE once before) but are there any aircraft that float? One might imagine that some of the foam/composite types should be reasonably buoyant though I'm guessing the CoG would tend to tip them forward.

[neilgeddes]

but are there any aircraft that float?


seaplanes :)

[Rod1]

There is a DR400/180 with long range tanks which ran out of fuel and ditched in a Norwegian fiord. They jettisoned the canopy then realised she was floating so sat on the back with feet dangling in the water. A fishing boat came by and the two climbed aboard having only got their feet wet. The fishing boat put a rope round the prop and towed it to a nearby harbour and it was dragged out after 2 hours and eventually flew again. I know all this because I almost purchased it 20 year later and the story came out when we looked at the logs etc.

Rod1

[Maoraigh1]

The Lossie rescue helicopter did a training exercise within sight of my home a few years ago. The sea was choppy. I watched an unfortunate guy in a survival suit struggle to get into a liferaft, then capsize. Then get in again. Eventually he stayed in, and was picked up by the winchman. Then, as he was being winched up, the two guys were lowered, and, I assume, the winchman dropped into the sea. A few swimstrokes and he was at the raft, in first attempt, and he stayed in no problem.

[thing]

When I was in the RAF I was a lifeguard and used to teach kids and adults how to swim, so was very fit, very good swimmer and used to being in the water etc. We put an aircrew dinghy in the pool one day and I had trouble getting into it, I was surprised by the effort it took to get in, bale out and do up the fastener. That was in a swimming pool so I have to say that carrying a life raft without proper training is just for comfort unless you have had proper training in a pool or preferably the sea with the life raft you carry onboard your a/c.

Immersion suits would be a far better bet than carrying a liferaft.

[peterh337]

The technique is not that hard but (hard to describe without a sketch etc) you won't discover it by accident.

It is harder as the liferaft is smaller.

I've tried it in a pool and I bet it's harder in a decent swell...

The idea with a raft is to get into it straight from the aircraft. You absolutely must not chuck it into the water and hope to climb into it. One must brief passengers accordingly.

[Stephen Furner]

Some resources that may be useful

CAA Safety sense leaflet on ditching which has a lot of good advice and information in it: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL21.pdf

GASCo sometimes runs ditching courses. I went on one at the RNLI College. I found it a big eye opener on this issue. As has been said in other posts in this thread the big problem isn’t getting down safely onto the water but staying alive once floating about in it.
GASCo - GASCo Goes to Sea (http://www.gasco.org.uk/pages/news_item.asp?i_ToolbarID=1&i_PageID=503)

There’s nothing quite like struggling to get into a life raft while cold and soaking wet to realise just how tricky it can be. A raft can throw in a few tricks in its own such as turning upside down and trapping you under it.

SEMS led the pool work I took part in. They run training courses and can hire out or sell equipment: SEMS Aerosafe - Survival Equipment for light aircraft (http://www.aerosafe.co.uk/index.html)

[Sam Rutherford]

We have the full Nomex/GoreTex suits, and I wear them when the crossing is longer than about 30 minutes. I figure that the actual 'out of glide to land' time is pretty short.

Wear your life jacket, and have your beacon on your person whatever - that way if you get out of the plane you'll have the minimum with you. Additionally getting the raft out is nice, but less easy.

As far as floating planes goes, my theory is that the less fuel you have, the longer you'll float (thanks to the fuel tanks being full of air). Of course, you need to get the machine down relatively intact.

Taking the S out of SAR is important as well (radio calls and position transmitting beacons etc.).

Fly safe, Sam.



PS lost a colleague a long time ago who dived back into a ditched aircraft to try and rescue someone, and didn't come back up - so be careful if you find yourself in a similar situation.

[Stephen Furner]

GASCo will be holding a third 'Ditching and Sea Survival' Seminar at the Lifeboat College, Poole on 29th March 2012.

Contact Penny Gould at the GASCo Office on 01634 200203 or e-mail [email protected].

GASCo - Ditching & Sea Survival Seminar - 29th March 2012 (http://www.gasco.org.uk/pages/news_item.asp?i_ToolbarID=1&i_PageID=551)

[Taildra99er]

So this was an interesting read if you were thinking of ditching in a Pitts. Straight on its back.

Lessons Learned [Archive] - StudentPilot.com Message Board (http://www.studentpilot.com/interact/forum/archive/index.php/t-22179.html)

[funfly]

Wearing a drysuit will give you just that bit more confidence over water. I used to have a checklist handy which said things like, Headsets off. Head cover on, Gloves on, door cracked open, all that sort of stuff and used to go through this with accompanying wife. Be very aware (others will give you details) of what your aircraft will do when it hits the water, for instance there is a good chance that it will nose in and the cockpit will go under the water then bob back etc. I don't fly nowadays but always made a point of being super cautious over any stretch of water. Don't listen to the ones who say that the chances of anything happening are very slim, they are correct - very few small aircraft ditch however that's a lot different than actually being there in mid channel with your heart in your mouth.

[ChrisVJ]

I understand that every bit of weight is precious in an aircraft however I am somewhat surprised that no one has put forward realistic solutions to the problems of ditching and remaining afloat.

For an aircraft with a weight of about 1200lbs it takes about 15lbs of polystyrene foam. (I'll expalin hpow I know in a sec.) By choice perhaps polystyrene is not what one would choose, perhaps not the best in a fire and that is the other major danger, however I am sure if one was to pay a little more one could find something even less dense and perhaps less flammable.

How about filling non occupied space with ping pong balls? Maybe inflatable attachable buoyancy.

About the time I was building jemima, a Searey amphibian, our group lost several aircraft to landing in water with wheels down and while most of them were recovered they all sank far enough to douse the instruments and the engine. Most also suffered a collapsing foredeck. I filled Jemima with 15lbs of polystyrene using it also to reinforce the nose and deck. If I wreck her and survive the impact I should be able to sit on top!

Incidentally but connected:
I saw an demonstration on utube of an amphibian landing on water wheels down which made me realise something interesting. The aircraft was a tricycle type and after the main wheels hit the nose splashed before the aircraft was tipped tail up. If you watch film of wheels down accidents from taildraggers, when the wheels dig in the nose goes down so the tail is almost over the nose before the nose builds resistance in the water so the forwards momentum easily drives the tail over. Tricycle gear aircraft are better for ditching.

[Dan Winterland]

A few points from my experience doing several survival course in the RAF, including the instructor's course.

The priorities in a survival situation are: Protection - Location - Water - Food, in that order.

Protection:

The coldest water around the UK can get down to 3 degrees, and at that temperature you have about 45 seconds to get into your liferaft before the cold renders the feat impossible for the average person. After that, it's curtains. And this is assuming you don't get incapacitated by cold shock. This is why the RAF insists on the wearing of immersion suits when the sea temperature gets below 10 degrees and the Navy 15. I once did a sea survial exercise in the English channel where we had to spend 10 hours in a liferaft. I was wearing an immersion suit and three layers underneath. Despite being February, the biggest danger was overheating - I was too well insulated. Whereas, I got close to hypothermia doing another sea survival exercise off the Norfolk coast in August wearing nothing but a flying suit.

Wear your immersion suit/drysuit. You are extremely unlikely to have the opportunity to get into it after the ditching. The same goes for your bouyancy device. If you don't have a liferaft, a bouyancy device with a hood is going to increase your survival time.

Getting into a liferaft is a struggle. Practice in a warm swimming pool first. Make sure the liferaft has a cover and a boarding step - and a way of getting any water out when you're all in.

Location: (which means being found and not living in Surrey!) I'm often suprised that pilots don't have a good idea about how important this is. Getting picked up quickly is the key to survival and just having a hand held VHF isn't going to be of much use - especially if it's got wet. The PLBs on the market are good, but there are some really excellent EPIRBS (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) available, mostly designed for yachting use. Some have GPS built in and can transmit recognition data which you will have registered with the coastguard when you buy them. They are good value and will pretty much ensure you will be found - quite quickly. Look at the boat chandler's webites for the best deals.

Water: Not too important. You hope to be rescued in a matter of hours.

Food: You can survive for more than a couple of weeks without food, so don't bother.


I still do survival lectures for yacht people. I like to bring my mate along to give the benefit of his experience of ditching a light twin in the Pacific on a ferry flight. He and his co-pilot survived because they were prepared. Even to the extent that they had a second liferaft - which came in useful when the tailplane of the sinking aircraft sliced the inflated first raft in two as it slipped below the waves! They also had a 406MHz beacon - which meant they were found very quickly - although the pickup took about 24 hours as they were several hundred miles from Hawaii. Incidently, this was the first recorded rescue using a 406MHz device. He also likes to point out that the touchdown was very violent - he broke his nose when his head struck the glareshield.

[Dg800]

It might seem a funny question (we discussed something similar on PPRUNE once before) but are there any aircraft that float? One might imagine that some of the foam/composite types should be reasonably buoyant though I'm guessing the CoG would tend to tip them forward. There have been a few instances of composite gliders being ditched in fresh water (I don't know of any that have actually been ditched at sea!) and the consensus is that, while they tend to submerge briefly on impact, they float for several hours while water slowly creeps into the empty spaces making them less and less buoyant. They have no CG issues as without an engine up front they are inherently quite well balanced. The wings also provide lots of lateral stability, much like a canoe with very large floats on both sides.
They're usually able to be dragged near to the shore before they submerge completely, making recovery easier. That won't make repairs that much cheaper, though. :{

Cheers,

DG800

[mikehallam]

Dan,

Can I use your post in a future RansMail please ?

P.M. mikehallam@btinternet dot com

mike hallam

[NutLoose]

I often wondered this and sorry for a bit of thread creep, many years ago Tomorrows World ( remember that) showed a triangular liferaft rather like a toblerone box in shape, the advantages were you entered from the end so it wouldn't tip over, and the triangular shape meant if it did tip, the sides became the floor etc... if that makes sense, was it ever developed?

They also did Chaff flares which made a lot of sense as you might not see the flare but the chaff would appear on a ship or coastguards radar.

[jez d]

Flotation suits - Flotation Suits - Baltic Polar & Nova Floataion Suit (http://www.crew-safe.co.uk/acatalog/Flotation-Suits.html)



Baltic Floatation Suits have the ability to protect against the first shock of entering cold water. It then traps water inside the suit and the same principle as a wet suit applies with the body heating the trapped water.

All Baltic floatation suits have three important features for persons in rugged marine environments

1. 100% waterproof
2. The same buoyant properties as a standard buoyancy aid.
3. Protection against the first cold shock

Baltic floatation suits are CE marked and tested and approved to EN393 and ISO 1527-1

One of the criteria is that five persons, each wearing a floatation suit, are immersed in water at 15°C for two hours. During that time they must not lose more than 2°C core temperature. The test subjects for Baltic lost only 0.8°C


I found these online recently and wondered whether they might prove a suitable alternative for an immersion suit ?

It strikes me that a flotation suit has a number of advantages over an immersion suit. They incorporate a hood and apparently negate the need for a separate life jacket. They look more comfortable and I assume they won't restrict movement as much as an immersion suit does. They cost less than an immersion suit.

On the downside, as they appear to work on the wet suit principle the added weight from the trapped water could make it harder to exit an aircraft and climb into a liferaft.

Regards, jez

[NazgulAir]

Wooden aeroplanes have enough buoyancy to float.


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/af224/600/oops-WetFeet5.jpg

[BackPacker]

apparently negate the need for a separate life jacket.

I would not count on that. For starters, I can't find that claim anywhere on their website, and that doesn't surprise me.

A life jacket, when inflated, has most of the buoyancy on your chest, and as a collar around your neck. So if you become unconscious, your head is kept out of the water and you don't drown from water ingestion. This is one of the most important design criteria to get CE approval as a "life jacket".

If the buoyancy is spread around your whole body, you may well end up in a stable position with your face in the water.

They cost less than an immersion suit.

My immersion suit (actually a dinghy sailing dry suit) was 150 euros 2nd hand, 270 new. So the price difference is minor, but I sure hope my immersion suit will help me survive in water temperatures considerably lower than +15C.

(Actually I hope never to end up in that situation, but you get my point...)

[NazgulAir]

Flotation Suits...we-e-eellll... the thing is, if you don't get wet your body heat won't get washed away. Anything that gets wet will have to be a very good fit to trap that precious heat. Wetsuits work by keeping a thin water layer close to the skin that warms up and stays there. If the flotation suit does anything like that it will be stiff, bulky and uncomfortable to wear inside the cocklit. Does anyone have experience with this?

I'd go for a drysuit and dressing apropriately underneath, in layered clothing with thermal underwear, and wearing a lifejacket on top. The suit does the job of keeping the cold water from touching you, the clothing and the air trapped in the clothing keeps you insulated, and the lifejacket keeps you afloat. I had a separate hood (a wetsuit diving hood) and neoprene (surfing) socks. These are still in the aircraft on the bottom of the Atlantic together with the raft we couldn't get out, I did not have the time to put them on! My feet were cold but the suits changed what could have been a death scenario into a case of mild hypothermia. Given a choice between a drysuit and a raft I'm not sure to get out or even be able to climb into, I'd take the suit any day. When you're in tropical shark-infested waters the choice may be different... ;)

[PompeyPaul]

Always wondered if a PA28 would float? I always presumed I'd come to rest, get out of the aircraft, inflate the raft and jump in, on a floating platform.

Do they float?

[NazgulAir]

Do they float?

No. The bulkhead seals are not watertight.

[jez d]

I would not count on that. For starters, I can't find that claim anywhere on their website, and that doesn't surprise me.



I was assuming from their comment...


2. The same buoyant properties as a standard buoyancy aid.



... that it replaced a life jacket. But you're right, it doesn't specifically state it's a life jacket replacement.

I thought immersion suits started at the £400 mark. Thanks for the encouraging news.

[peterh337]

Getting into a liferaft is a struggle. Practice in a warm swimming pool first. Make sure the liferaft has a cover and a boarding step - and a way of getting any water out when you're all in.I asked SEMS once if I could inflate my raft and do that, prior to sending it to them for a routine overhaul.

They said NO because the gas comes out of the cylinder very cold and makes the rubber brittle. When they test inflate the rafts they use room temperature air.

Disagreeing with a suggestion to wear a drysuit is a bit like laughing at Bob Geldof when he says that today we will abolish poverty, but I still don't advocate the wearing of one because it makes an already rather antisocial activity even more antisocial.

[TomNH]

I’m a long term lurker and, more recently, PPL student who’s never posted before as I’ve never really been able to contribute substantial content but this thread has driven me to put keyboard to ether. Whilst I’m at the bottom of the learning curve in planes I’ve spent many years mucking about in boats and teaching others to do so. I’ve also been actively involved in the sharp end of marine SAR for the last ten years or so.

In no particular order:

· I’ve no idea how many ditched aircraft float for any length of time or come to rest the right way up but liferafts are big and heavy. Yachts (and their safety regulators, where regulated) are moving to carrying them secured with hydrostatic releases on the open deck so that they are automatically released when submerged. I’d not want to have one between me and the door (in say a PA28) but equally I’d not want to be on the outside trying to get one out unless it was in the doorway – it would be even harder in a high wing plane where you’d inevitably be in the water. I can barely lift a six man offshore raft – especially out of an awkward space/locker.
· Getting into a raft from the water is a challenge and there is a knack to be learnt. After only 2 or 3 attempts even a fit adult may well be too tired to continue. Training is a must: using a sea survival pool such as the RNLI one in Poole with a wave machine running with meter plus waves is a real eye opener. Even the English channel is very rarely mill pond flat: expect your plane, even if firmly afloat, to have short wavelength half metre high waves washing along/over it at the very least – it’s a bonus if it doesn’t!
· Cold water shock kills. I once had a first aid instructor who was a winchman at Zeebrugge: he reported that most of the people who jumped from the ship into the water died from cold water shock almost immediately – he recovered none alive. As I understand it the sudden cold causes an increase in heart rate at the same time as vaso-constriction pushes peripheral and surface blood back to the core leading to a massive spike in blood pressure.
· Drysuits are great as protection against cold shock and at extending survival times in the water but, as someone who has spent a lot of time wearing them, they can, especially on a hot day, bring their own problems with heat exhaustion – and that’s before you consider peterh’s views on bodily functions in flight :) (told you I’d been lurking). Unless you have full aircrew spec nomex ones they are about the last thing I’d want to be near a fire in. As others have said drysuits are only any use if you wear them done up – what proportion of your flight has a ditching risk rather than a risk of a ‘conventional’ forced landing with its fire risk?
· As others have pointed out it is essential you do all you can to initiate and reduce the duration search phase of SAR. I’d got as far as to say that once you’re committed to ditching Communicate becomes more important than Navigate (possibly even if you don’t know where you are) in the hierarchy and almost joint with Aviate. There’s no point in surviving a ditching offshore if no one is looking for you. It wasn’t so long ago that a Cornish fishing crew spent nearly 24h in a raft in sight of land before they were spotted. 406MHz EPIRBS are good, waterproof marine VHF’s are also a help as most modern lifeboats (even the larger inshore ones) can DF on VHF or 121.5 (which all EPIRBS put out for local homing). GPS based EPIRBS reduce the initial search area even further. Flares help in the final phase but only use if you think someone will see them – also think carefully before using them if you’re happily sat on a floating plane. Half a kilo of burning phosphorus wouldn’t my first choice of companion when sitting on/in 100LL. Smokes are best in daylight and might well be less of an ignition risk – bigger ones are designed to be thrown clear into the water and float free.
· If you’re in the water stay together. You’re a bigger search target (and you can help each other stay afloat) – an individual in the water is often invisible at 20m or less, especially if there is any sea running. Searches can take a LONG time, even when centred on a good datum such as a GPS EPIRB hit or floating wreckage. Don’t expend energy unnecessarily – hypothermia will set in faster.
· Don’t expect the cavalry to be there immediately if you’re offshore. Most lifeboats would be underway within ten minutes of the call but won’t steam at much more than 20-30kts. Helicopters are often on 20mins notice by day unless they’re already up and have sufficient fuel. At night you can be looking at 40mins notice for a helicopter, plus flying and search time. You might well be in/on the water for over an hour in the best case even in the narrower parts of the English channel.
· If you can ditch within sight of a boat that’s got to be the best option. I don’t think it makes any real difference what sort of boat: any well run boat (commercial or recreational) will have a practised plan for getting people out of the water. They will also be able to call for help with a confirmed position.

Well that’s possibly the longest first post ever… and is only my 2p’s worth, it certainly is not official advice from anyone!

Tom

[NazgulAir]

They said NO because the gas comes out of the cylinder very cold and makes the rubber brittle.

That's interesting. Does this mean that the liferaft is a use-once-only item and that once inflated using the gas cylender must be thrown away? I never knew that.

[foxmoth]

my theory is that the less fuel you have, the longer you'll float (thanks to the fuel tanks being full of air)

Though hopefully that is not WHY you are floating around in the sea!:E

[peterh337]

Does this mean that the liferaft is a use-once-only item and that once inflated using the gas cylender must be thrown away?It probably means the liferaft should be overhauled by somebody competent, after it has been used for real.

Though hopefully that is not WHY you are floating around in the sea!Usually that is precisely why one is :)

I think most ditchings are caused by running out of fuel. Especially on the Jersey runs which people tend to do with nearly empty tanks so they get the biggest benefit of the cheaper fuel :) They just neglect the fact that if they left the UK with full tanks and claimed the duty drawback, they would make a similar saving and have a much safer trip and would in most cases avoid a pointless stop in Jersey which is just unnecessary hassle.

[stickandrudderman]

TomNH, great first post, thanks.:ok: