Charter Job Or Instructor?

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Good'ay fellow Aviation enthusiasts :) . Just recently finished my CPL training in Melbourne and im really looking foward to finding my first job in flying, whether it be charter ops, parachute drops or anything that involves flying and building up hours. Can anyone please be of assistance and help me or atleast shed some light ? if anyone knows anyone who's hiring pilots just after finishing of their training? Im also thinking about getting my instructor rating done in YMMB and then lkn for work but what chance of guarentee do i have finding a job as an instructor? :confused:.. i really want to stick with charter however.!! :E any suggestions or tips which would help me would be really appreciative ladies and gents, safe flying :ok:

[D-J]

Perhaps use the search function, have seen quite a few similar threads pop up in the recent past.

instructor rating done in YMMB and then lkn for work but what chance of guarentee do i have finding a job as an instructor?

Nothing's guaranteed in aviation! become an instructor if you it's something you want to do & can commit to ( once again use the search many a thread about this....)

[lilflyboy262...2]

I always love how people don't find out about this stuff until after they have completed their CPLs

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Thnx heap's DJ ive done that and found some useful information :ok:

In response to lilflyboy262..2, mate ive done my research and prepared for this situation ive always had a plan too hit the big jets one day and that is my dream, but thier are times in life were you occur tough times and you need advice from people..:}

[wishiwasupthere]

ive always had a plan too hit the big jets one day and that is my dream

Serious question, but what's the fascination with airlines?

Now if only I can find a way to move up from my 210!! ;)

[Lasiorhinus]

Make sure you have a retractable undercarriage endorsement.

Don't bother with an instructor rating - if you wanted to instruct, you'd already know without any doubt that you wanted to instruct.

Pack the car, and go north. From Melbourne, go via Adelaide then up the centre. Visit William Creek and Marree. Keep driving, go to Jabiru and Oenpelli. Then go west, to Kununurra, Halls Creek, Fitzroy Crossing, Derby and Broome.

Decide where you want to stay for a while, out of Kununurra and Broome - then get a room at the backpackers and stay there, regularly visiting the local charter companies, occasionally visiting the other towns.
Work in a supermarket or servo, or if you have RSA, work in the pub.

Some people get jobs quickly, some people it can take over a year. But I promise you this - if you stick around long enough, you will get a job. It may not be easy, but it will be one hell of a lot of fun.

[Lasiorhinus]

ive always had a plan too hit the big jets one day and that is my dream,

Follow your instructors advice: "Clear Left, Centre, Right, Turning Right" and you stand a much better chance of never hitting a big jet.

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Serious question, but what's the fascination with airlines?

Now if only I can find a way to move up from my 210!!

Well you never know? i might end up flying 210's and maybe a king air or Baraon's for rest of my life, if it is a one of a hell life time experience :ok:

I dunno whats soo fascinating about it but ive always wanted to be in the left hand seat of a Boeing 777-300 alyways been my dream to be in the cockpit and just feel that bad girl in my control HAHA! :E

Follow your instructors advice: "Clear Left, Centre, Right, Turning Right" and you stand a much better chance of never hitting a big jet. HAHA didnt mean it that way, i remember through vigorous training my instructor and CFI would hammer me if i ever forgot to do a correct lookout :}

[PA39]

Never take on instructing just to gain hours in the seat. Be committed and as you are still very inexperienced, learn every day. A good instructor with experience often makes for a good charter pilot but a good charter pilot struggles with instructing. Learn what you are teaching and why you are teaching. ;)

[Fondair]

There is enough bare CPL instructors out there contributing nothing of value. Please dont do it.

[Homesick-Angel]

When you go for your "big jet" interview, probably best not to answer the question " why do you want to fly with us?" with .... " cos I just want to feel that bad girl in my control"

This dude has to be winding us up? Who, other than the numbnuts in movies like Top Gun, speaks like that?.

[major_tom]

I always love how people don't find out about this stuff until after they have completed their CPLs ^ lol, too true :}

Probably should have been thinking about this during your training karl.

As you have not done your FIR yet you can always go up north first then try instructing if charter dont work out. Word on the street is a MECIR may be good if deciding to do charter?

However before you turn out the big bucks for ratings/endos I would probably start with the most basic thing - the search function ;)

Best place to generally find FI jobs is afap - however charter whole other ball game.

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Never take on instructing just to gain hours in the seat.
My aim is to build up hours asap soo ideally yes charter work would be the best thing. Now if i do instructing ill be 120% committed to my work and teaching my student, and giving them every bit of experience that i have learnt..:) and in response to fondair ive seen a few instructors myself just using students to gain up hours and sending them back for another Nav before proceeding on and its for the most stupidest reasons too.! :suspect:
@Homesick-Angel 'When you go for your "big jet" interview, probably best not to answer the question " why do you want to fly with us?" with .... " cos I just want to feel that bad girl in my control"
This dude has to be winding us up? Who, other than the numbnuts in movies like Top Gun, speaks like that?. First of all dont be hating on Top Gun ;) im just expressing on the feeling i got back then :) and i still am however that aint answer to a Airline Job interview im willing to give or am i? :rolleyes: Just kidding :E
And thnx heaps Tom and Bunglerat :ok:

[404 Titan]

PilotKarl_777-300

I hope your ability to construct a sentence in your résumé is better than here, because quite frankly reading your posts is very painful.:ugh:

[morno]

because quite frankly reading your posts is very painful.:ugh:

Agreed

Now if i do instructing ill be 120% committed to my work and teaching my student, and giving them every bit of experience that i have learnt..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

But you don't have any experience, so how can you teach them? Sure you may have 200hrs, but that's barely enough experience to get you through a normal day on the job in charter, so how can you then teach someone else this 'experience'?

After over 4,000hrs I still consider myself green and still learning a lot. But at least I'd have something to pass onto a new student. 200hrs though...... please, for the sake of our industry, don't do it.

morno

[PilotKarl_777-300]

404 Titan
I hope your ability to construct a sentence in your résumé is better than here, because quite frankly reading your posts is very painful.
I'm really sorry! :sad: Didn't realize this was a website were grammar and sentence structure mattered so much :eek: Maybe they should have an Auto-Correct function! :E

Thnx morno for the advice, but still having 200 hours compared to a student without any flying experience, means you still have something to teach, and i understand that having an instructor rating doesn't mean ill ever stop learning :8

[morno]

Basically all you have to teach, are the mere fundamentals of flying. You can't pass on any experience, because with 200hrs, you barely have any experience to pass on. That's the problem, how can you put out a good student who's ready to face the world, when they have been taught by someone who is basically almost on the same level as them.

200hrs is not experienced. 200hrs is merely a tiny figure in which you've learnt enough to gain your licence. Even at 2,000hrs you are only probably just getting to a point where you have a few things you could pass onto someone with very little hours.

This whole instructor thing straight out of flying school themselves, ****'s me to tears. It should not be allowed.

The crux of it all, go and get some experience in charter rather than the blind leading the blind as an instructor with bugger all hours. I did the charter route and haven't regretted one bit of it. 8 years since I got my first job and I'm still not working for an airline, by pure choice and happiness with where I am now. Airlines aren't the be all and end all.

morno

[SpyderPig]

I'm really sorry! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif Didn't realize this was a website were grammar and sentence structure mattered so much http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif Maybe they should have an Auto-Correct function! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


You havnt read enough posts on here yet then lol. Grammar police patrol this place better than the highway patrol do the highways. You should take pride in the way you write anything, its not what you say but how you say it that can make the difference.

As for being a fresh CPL instructor (fresh CPL myself) I have met some great ones. The thing Ive found is that if they have a complex about knowing more than they do and think they are sky gods.

Ive chosen charter myself, and no offence you probably should of put more thought into this by now:ok:

[PilotKarl_777-300]

I did the charter route and haven't regretted one bit of it. 8 years since I got my first job and I'm still not working for an airline, by pure choice and happiness with where I am now. Airlines aren't the be all and end all.

Good on ya champ :ok: well im willing too go all the way to the airlines ;)

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Ive chosen charter myself, and no offence you probably should of put more thought into this by now
I have alot, it's just ive got a mate who's a CPL Helicopter pilot and his also a Ground instructor at YMMB and his been putting few ideas in my head about instructing. However im still putting all the effort into finding a charter job! As i said in my previous post im leaving it as a last resort.
The thing Ive found is that if they have a complex about knowing more than they do and think they are sky gods.
This again is really true, however some instructors think they know all but in reality they have no clue and tell you to go find the answer despite the fact you've tried a billion times!! :suspect:
So have you found a job yet spyderpig? :}
Another thing i should start to consider is finishing off my ATPL's :E

[SpyderPig]

I have not and will make the trip to Mecca like most. List is prepared of places to stop and people to see, in the final stages of planning now.

If you want to instruct then do so. Dont because it's easier and a last resort way to find work. Your only damaging the industry in the long run if you don't have to commitment to be there for the right reasons:cool:

[PilotKarl_777-300]

If you want to instruct then do so. Dont because it's easier and a last resort way to find work. Your only damaging the industry in the long run if you don't have to commitment to be there for the right reasons
Agreed upon indeed. If i want to become an instructor i should do it properly and for the right reasons :)

List is prepared of places to stop and people to see, in the final stages of planning now.
Sweet as, well i wish you all the best champ, keep me updated on how you go! :ok: and thanx again, Take care :E

[Howard Hughes]

After over 4,000hrs I still consider myself green and still learning a lot.
Me too, I am still a 'babe in the woods'!:ok:

In answer to the OP's question, try Charter!

[j3pipercub]

I have said this before on a similar thread

Dear sweet baby Jesus, PLEASE let this be a wind up:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


j3

[system.of.a.down]

Karl

If you have just finished your training ask the CFI/CP of your school if you can do single engine charter (assuming they have charter on the AOC). You have just spent $50,000 there and he knows how u fly so he most likely won't have a problem with it.
The school I trained at did bugger all charter/scenic joyflights so I made some flyers and did a bit of cheap marketing (using the office computer and photocopier) and had a fair bit of interest, got some hours and the instructors couldn't care less. Not to mention the CFI/CP was happy about the extra business.

That extra 50-100 hours or so will help when head up north.

Just a thought...

S.O.A.D

[strim]

Far too good to be a wind up...

No one could manufacture this stuff.

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Far too good to be a wind up...
What does this mean? :uhoh: lol

If you have just finished your training ask the CFI/CP of your school if you can do single engine charter (assuming they have charter on the AOC). You have just spent $50,000 there and he knows how u fly so he most likely won't have a problem with it.

I would've done that long time ago if they did have consistent charter ops/scenic flights, however the school i did my training at don't :hmm:
Thnx anyway :ok:

[system.of.a.down]

Exactly... refer to my original post. My school did bugger all (not consistent at all) maybe one harbour scenic a month!. So talk to the CFI do a deal make some fliers and go for a walk downtown hand them out or leave them on shop counters and guaranteed you will get a few hours out of it. The reason your school hasn't got consistent joyflights is probably because no-one is marketing it... the instructors have their steady flow of students and getting plenty of hours so they don't bother. Work with the CFI/CP and build the market yourself and get the rewards.

You could just head up north with 200hrs and hope for the best but the next guy who reads my post will be heading up not far behind you with another 100 hours and a great reference taking the job you've been waiting for.

S.O.A.D

[Homesick-Angel]

I'm not going to do it because I'm far too nice , but why hasn't this young fella been flamed mercilessly??

Maybe pprune is enjoying a special new era of common decency where certain types of threads are actually treated with respect....

Nah...

[The Green Goblin]

Never take on instructing just to gain hours in the seat. Be committed and as you are still very inexperienced, learn every day. A good instructor with experience often makes for a good charter pilot but a good charter pilot struggles with instructing.Learn what you are teaching and why you are teaching.

Spoken like a true instructor :E

It is actually the exact reverse of what this fella said.

A good instructor is not a good charter pilot. They become too institutionalized in the flying school doctrine.

They will become a good regional/airline pilot, but certainly not good charter pilots. Charter involves a healthy interpretation of the rules. With an instructor its black and white. Every instructor I came across that was a grade 2 or above trying their hand at charter was a right pain in the arse. They were the guys who didn't wipe cowls, cross belts, clean windows, return the cockpit to how they found it. They had limited engine management ability and unrealistic expectations of their progression.

Charter pilots generally make fantastic instructors because they can practice what they preach. Once the rough edges are knocked off and they brush up on the regs and theory side of things they are a much preferred option. They can actually train a CPL to fly for hire and reward vs what the other grade one instructors think it's all about.

Havings said that, not many charter guys are keen to go from flying heavy singles and twins to 2 seat trainers and sky gods at the flying school.

Generally the instructors will make it hard for them too and undermine them whenever possible to their students.

I've seen it all before.

It's a big world outside the flying school out there!

[havick]

A good instructor is not a good charter pilot. They become too institutionalized in the flying school doctrine.

They will become a good regional/airline pilot, but certainly not good charter pilots.

A good instructor with experience often makes for a good charter pilot but a good charter pilot struggles with instructing

What a load of crap from both sides of the argument. :yuk:

It doesn't matter where you have flown and what you have been doing. There are many great charter pilots (ex-instructors), great instructors (ex-charter pilots) and then there's sh*ithouse instructors and charter pilots from varying backgrounds.

It really depends on the persons' attitude and their ability to adapt to whoever they're working for.

I get the impression that purist charter pilots or purist instructors are just defending their own turf (or percieved inadequacies). The arguments only tend to come from pilots who have only worked in one area and not the other.

[The Green Goblin]

Havick,

I was both and instructed after charter.

[havick]

So was I (in Helicopters). The argument is the same both plank and rotary..

[squarebear]

Pilot_Karl

In my case my first flight after my CPL test (251 hours) was the first flight of my Instructors Rating. Made Grade 1ME Tng couple of years later.

But you don't have any experience, so how can you teach them? Sure you may have 200hrs, but that's barely enough experience to get you through a normal day on the job in charter, so how can you then teach someone else this 'experience'?

Must have worked as the ones that didn't do it for pleasure are presently flying all over the world now.

A good instructor is not a good charter pilot. They become too institutionalized in the flying school doctrine.


Never had any complaints from my bosses in the years that I was in the charter game.
Neither did I fell "institutionalised from the doctrine" :confused: from the flying school/clubs I taught at.

Anyway, after a stints in Corporate, EMS found myself in the Airlines.

Depends on how you want to do it, but I can tell you that hundreds of pilots did the instructing then charter path and I know quite a few of them and they were good instructors and good charter pilots.

As havick said

t really depends on the persons' attitude and their ability to adapt to whoever they're working for.

Maybe the ones that saying it shouldn't be done, just can't adapt.:)