Do you always check notams

[dont overfil]

The thought was inspited by the PPR thread and a situation last week.

"Our" airfield is in class G airspace with the nearest neighbour airfield twelve miles away.

A notam was issued for temporary class D airspace from the surface two miles to the east and from 2100 ft two miles to the south.

By chance the AG operator picked it up, but would you? Do you check notams for a local bimble?

D.O.

[BackPacker]

Yes.

But I fly from a controlled airfield which mandates flight plans for every flight. So when I'm in homebriefing.nl it's only a few extra clicks.

[thing]

Yes, it's a couple of clicks on a computer, what's so hard or time consuming about that? If you didn't check them and blundered into some aerobatic competion or such like then you would be quite rightly lambasted.

I had the amazement last summer of listening to a guy give a position report of 'above Langar', to which he got the reply from East Mids of 'There is a live drop taking place at this time...'.

I have to be careful what I say really being a wet behind the ears new boy but some of the flying and radio discipline I've seen and heard from so called experienced aviators leaves a lot to be desired.

[rich_g85]

I would echo thing's comments. It takes barely minutes to produce and digest a NOTAM brief, there really is no excuse for not doing it before every flight. Being a newly-qualified PPL holder also, I just try to continue flying to the same high standards to which I was taught.. :-)

[corsair]

I learned that lesson a long time ago in the USA. I set sail for an airport not so far away. When I tuned the unicom a fair distance out. I heard a military sounding voice announcing he was departing, adding 'Great show'. When I called the voice on the other end told there was an airshow ongoing, 'It was NOTAM'd'. Nevertheless he offered to get me in, as is the way in America. I declined and thanked him. On the way back I shuddered at that thought of meeting an F16 or something head on during it's display routine.

[RTN11]

On a local bimble, getting the NOTAMs couldn't be eaier through NATS AIS. A simple point brief with a radius you will not exceed, and any airfields you are likely to use.

The more complex ones are long nav trips through multiple FIRs. Here you end up with tons of lat and long, trying to find where an aerobatics display or royal flight might be, and this is where other sites/software which can plot it on a map make life a lot easier.

[JOE-FBS]

Yes, of course.

Quick anecdote. A year or two ago, I was heading North from Halton. Straight line route was over Silverstone which is normally a good landmark and something for the passenger to look at. That day, there was a Typhoon display NOTAMed. We saw it in the distance as we routed to the east. If I had not checked, at the very least I would have spoiled the display and got several massive bollockings. At worst, I would have destroyed two aeroplanes, killed myself, my son, an RAF pilot and potentially lots of spectators. Hence, quite possibly have caused a hand guns / dangerous dogs reaction against light aviation from the politicians.

Oh and while I still use the AIS site as well, for the UK there is now a free to use, NATS approved NOTAM display tool here:

SkyDemon Light (http://www.skydemonlight.com)

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

NOTAM checking is not, and never really has been an issue. It's only a problem if you live in an isolated shed in the wilds of the Shetland Islands and don't have a PC or internet connection.

There are so many third party products now as well as 'the official one', that checking NOTAMs is as easy as it's going to get. There's even graphical NOTAM programmes online, just as reliable as 'the official one', but obviosuly not guaranteed. Works well enough for me.

And I agree with 'Thing' that idiots who arrive over a para DZ without knowing that parachuting is taking place need to have their license torn up. We even got student pilots calling up to route overhead the DZ, obviously with a FI on board as well. Flight planning???:ugh:

[Ian_Wannabe]

www.ippc.no - When it's a simple as this then everyone should!

[JOE-FBS]

OK, AIS is not quite that simple but Sky Demon light pretty much is and you get a graphical output, including for complex things like Red Arrows transit routes.

Like the Airspace Aware, SDL is a great piece of NATS instigated and endorsed kit.

Aware GPS | Nats Aware GPS Airspace Warning Device (http://www.airspaceaware.com/products/devices/awaregps/)

I am banging on about them because I have been to two otherwise apparently well run PPL FTOs in the last six months that have never heard of at least one of them.

[peterh337]

Always check notams.

Well, sometimes one forgets and the most recent occassion I did forget I got caught by a royal flight TRA near Farnborough and ATC sent me halfway around the country...

Even on the NATS site it is only a few mins to run a narrow route briefing and if you knock up one which is say 20nm wide and zigzags around your patch, it will pick up anything affecting the local area, plus your airfield.

[bingoboy]

Yes, now Skydemonlight makes it a reasonable process.

[Whopity]

Two years ago I conducted a PPL Skill Test where the candidate made no attempt to brief me about the NOTAMS, I could tell from the look on his face that he had no idea what I was talking about. After a few more questions I presented him with my NOTAM printout and asked if he had seen these before. NO was the reply. So here we had a fairly capable pilot who had completed his entire PPL training without ever having been taught about or shown a NOTAM.
So clearly, there are people who go flying without checking NOTAMS!

[Whirlybird]

Way back in the dark ages when I did my PPL, which was of course before the internet etc, I didn't even learn that NOTAMs existed until almost the end of my PPL course! I seem to remember that it was sheer chance that I heard about them. So Whopity's example is not unique.

[BabyBear]

Whopity, you sure he was telling the truth? He should have picked up the concept of NOTAMS from the theory, surely?

BB

[ShyTorque]

A classic example of folks not checking NOTAMs is the surprising number of pilots still calling Cottesmore LARS and making an a**e of themselves and clogging up the R/T by asking for a MATZ crossing.

Q) EGTT/QAZCD/IV/NBO/E/000/030/5244N00039W003
B) FROM: 12/01/01 00:00C) TO: PERM
E) COTTESMORE ATZ. FOR THE PURPOSE OF RULE 45 OF THE RULES OF THE AIR REGULATIONS 2007 THE COTTESMORE ATZ IS DEACTIVATED.
ENR 2-2-2-2 REFERS


Q) EGTT/QAZCD/IV/NBO/E/000/030/5244N00039W005
B) FROM: 12/01/01 00:00C) TO: PERM
E) COTTESMORE MILITARY ATZ DEACTIVATED.
ENR 2-2-3-3 REFERS.

[thing]

Ah, no excuse for not knowing about Cottesmore Matz being de activated but if you transfer from say Waddo zone to Cottesmore then you will still get 'hand over to Cottesmore on 130.2' and when you call them they still answer as Cottesmore, which is weird because the should be calling themselves Wittering Approach surely?

[ShyTorque]

No, they are still "Cottesmore" as they remain responsible for the Cottesmore LARS Service until told otherwise.

[thing]

I see. I think. Are the guys on Cottesmore LARS really Wittering Approach then just using a different name? Or are they interchangeable? It being the same frequency and all that.

[fwjc]

Ditto with SkyDemonLight. In particular the graphical display of Red Arrows and BBMF routes has proved invaluable in flight planning to avoid them. The chart information displayed can easily be checked as well.

The only failing I've seen is that the updates are not real time, so instant NOTAMS are not displayed, only those included in monthly updates. We've seen several months worth of delays showing new wind turbine masts.

I use SDL first, and top up with AIS

[Final 3 Greens]

Of course not, it takes up valuable time.

So do pre-flight checks, as it flew before, I just kick the tyres to make sure they are okay, jump in and start up. That's good enough.

Then, You can do a Direct To on the GPS and save a whole load of hassle in outdated pre-flight planning.

If the GPS fails, just call D&D and get a series of training fixes to get home.

And an AA road atlas is much more use than an overpriced CCA chart.

Simples.

[ShyTorque]

Problem with using non-official sources of NOTAMs is that it puts another link in the notification chain. If something gets missed and for example you bust some short notice controlled airspace and get reported, you have little or no no defence in law because the unofficial source has no legal obligation.

I stick to the AIS website.

F3G, I used to know a few other pilots like that. One has a memorial plaque at my local airfield.

(Yeh, I know you're joking, but I'm not...)

[Pilot.Lyons]

Lol final 3 greens.

I get an email of notams in a 50 mile radius of my home airfield every day... If i go further i do check enroute and diversion etc

[Whopity]

He should have picked up the concept of NOTAMS from the theory, surely?The only theory required is to pass the exams! Clearly he had never been taught to Navigate properly because that's where they should have featured on each dual Nav. One can't be too critical of the student regarding things an Instructor has failed to teach them.

[kevkdg]

Interesting point about the delays in skydemon light as at a recent atc open day at linton on ouse one of the main chaps from ais gave a presentation and answered questions on skydemon light. Apparently it uses the exact same data base as the ais website so not sure how you get delays.

Ditto with SkyDemonLight. In particular the graphical display of Red Arrows and BBMF routes has proved invaluable in flight planning to avoid them. The chart information displayed can easily be checked as well.

The only failing I've seen is that the updates are not real time, so instant NOTAMS are not displayed, only those included in monthly updates. We've seen several months worth of delays showing new wind turbine masts.

I use SDL first, and top up with AIS

[silverknapper]

You have two choices. Be a gash, careless, not really pay attention to standards type of pilot. Or you can have a professional approach to your flying, pay careful attention to all sources of info and actually progress in your development.

Sadly it sounds like you've already decided to be the former.

[Dark Helmet]

Always check. These days with the wonderful Sky Demon Light and the NATS site.

[Grob Queen]

Thing/Shy Torque,
Is the Wittering/Cottesmore MATZ situation much like ours and Barkston Heath?

In other words, where (as far as I am aware) CWL Approach are responsible for "Barking Mad" as well? When we are flying a local bimble for GH exercises we stay out of Cottesmore MATZ for ease more than anything else!

As to NOTAMS, yes, always check, without fail!!!! Isn't NOTAM checking drummed into every PPL Student and therefore second nature to every PPL holder?!

[gg190]

I always check them, I don't think it was drummed into me during my PPL course, but I remember it from the theory. I suppose it depends on well you link what you learn in the theory to actual flying.

I'm also a very nosey individual and I like to know everything that is going on, which makes me read NOTAMs.

One time checking NOTAMs always stands out for me:
20 knot wind blowing directly cross the main runway (out of limits for me), no problem can use the second runway, only about 5 knots cross on that. NOTAM issued stating the second runway was unavailable all day, had I not read that I would have driven to the airport, pre-flight checked the aircraft, started up and called for tax to then be told the second runway was unavailable, saved me a lot of hassle.

[Johnm]

Checking NOTAM isn't an optional extra it's a legal requirement

[gingernut]

yes,

ten characters yet?

[peterh337]

F3G was pulling everybody's leg, but he does accurately describe a fair % of pilots.

[ShyTorque]

Grob Queen,

When we are flying a local bimble for GH exercises we stay out of Cottesmore MATZ for ease more than anything else!

Hello....I say again....

Cottesmore doesn't have a MATZ......

RTFNOTAMS! :ugh:

[Lasiorhinus]

Does anyone actually have any reason at all why they don't check NOTAMs?

[peterh337]

Not knowing how to use the internet is a very common one.

[Grob Queen]

Shy Torque,
I probably wasn't clear enough, sorry. What I meant was I wonder if Wittering control Cottesmore airspace too....Cottesmore also still show on my up to date chart as having a MATZ and 130.2.

However, having thought more about this, I think I have heard that they are NOTAM notified only - and the charts just dont say this...so we are both correct! The airspace is still designated a MATZ, but only now by NOTAM.
;)

[cct]

I always use SkyDemon last thing at home, even for a bimble, and I always call the hotline whilst driving to the airfield. Then I would check the board at the flying club. They are normally aware of anything local.

[dont overfil]

One of the things that made me ask the origional question was the number of times I hear people booking out then changing their intentions once airborne and zapping off to a field in the opposite direction. I suppose it may come under the description of a bimble.

D.O.

[ShyTorque]

Grob Queen,
Cottesmore was the controlling authority for the CMATZ, when it existed as such. As far as I know, nothing has changed because it hasn't been NOTAMed.

No, the MATZ is no longer being promulgated as activated by NOTAM, however that was the initial NOTAM when Cottesmore first stopped flying operations. See post #16 on this thread, which gives the latest one on the AIS website. :)

[Maoraigh1]

One of the things that made me ask the origional question was the number of times I hear people booking out then changing their intentions once airborne and zapping off to a field in the opposite direction.
I always check notams, but often change intended routing due to weather seen when airbourne.

[Bobby Hart]

One of the things that made me ask the origional question was the number of times I hear people booking out then changing their intentions once airborne and zapping off to a field in the opposite direction.


I work for SkyDemon (full disclosure) and we saw this as a fixable issue. When SkyDemon Plan sync's NOTAMs with SkyDemon Mobile it actually fires across every NOTAM within the FIR so if you get in the air and have to deviate you can still have a relevant narrow route brief.

[good finish]

Any one know if sky demon light will be available anytime soon as an app or at least apple friendly?
Agree with everyone that it is a great tool.

[Bobby Hart]

It is Apple friendly in the sense that Silverlight (the required plug-in) will work happily on desktops and Macbooks.

As for the iPad, "there are no announcements to be made at this time" is my stock response. Keep your eyes open for news.

[grumpygeorge]

My understanding is that Cottesmore has been operating a LARS and ATC for Wittering but since all Cottesmore radar services are due to close on 31/03/2012 (ref E9321) , I assume that Wittering will have its own ATC ?

Does anyone know any different ?

[thing]

I was wondering that, according to the map Wittering Approach have the same frequency as Cottesmore LARS. Not sure what they do at Wittering these days, is it just gliding or do the army have choppers there?

[grumpygeorge]

My understanding is that Cottesmore radar (LARS and ATC Wittering) will cease to operate wef 31/03/12 so presumably the work they have been doing for Wittering will transfer to Wittering?

Does anyone know any different ?

[Grob Queen]

I have just checked in my new edition of Terminal Charts North published by AIDU and Cottesmore no longer feature and Wittering approach is 234.075 and Tower 125.525 - if thats any help! :)

[thing]

Tower might be, the approach frquency is UHF.

[smith]

During my Atpl theory training

Lecturer: Class, what is a NOTAM?

Student: notices to airmen sir.

Lecture: and what is a snowtam?

Some Wag at the back of the class: Notices to Snowmen Sir:eek:

[Nadder]

I cannot believe that this question even needs to be asked!

[Crash one]

I cannot believe that this question even needs to be asked!


I can't understand why that statement hasn't been made in 3 pages.:ugh:

[Agaricus bisporus]

I worked for 6 years as a commercial helicopter pilot based close to London flying the length nd breadth of the country and in that time never saw a NOTAM except on very rare occasions when stopping at larger airfields. This was in the late 80s/ early 90s when they were only available by subscription on teleprinter or fax and my bosses did not want to pay for them. They simply were not available to me, much as I would have liked to have seen them. However I never once found I needed them.

As this is the internet and many won't bother to actually read what I've written, let alone try to understand it I suppose I must add the entirely superfluous rider that I'm not saying this was correct, or that it would be adviseable to follow suit in today's environment.

Mind you, in my current airline our NOTAMS are filtered by Jeppesen for the route and type of operation and we are still buried in reams of irrelevant dross that can make it very hard to find if there is actually anything relevant buried in it, and all too easy to miss it if there is. What unfiltered NOTAMS must be like these days I hate to guess, but suspect there must be so much of it that it's practically worthless.

[dont overfil]

AB,
Absolutely spot on. It was not high up on the easily available information list in the 1980s.
I know there are still people out there that do not use them or understand the limitations of the archaic notam system.
Thank Christ for Skydemon.
D.O.

[peterh337]

Very much agree, and one has to wonder how aviation got on before the days of the internet...

When I did my PPL in 2000/2001, we never discussed notams. But that was before the original ais.org.uk website set up; it started being usable c. 2003.

I think what has happened is that today every tom dick and harry can squirt notams into the system so there is a fantastic amount of dross.

But one still has to read them, especially in the summer (aviation show RAs). With a narrow route briefing, just looking at the E) line does the job nicely - but airfield notams must be read whole.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

During a dual cross country some years ago. On the leg from Southend back to Shoreham we passed a very shiny Wessex helicopter heading the other way.

Me: “That must be the Royal Flight.”
Instr: “What Royal Flight?”
Me: “The one in the NOTAMS, didn’t you see it?”
Instr: “Oh, Sh!t.”

Don’t you just hate a smart-ass Stude…

[chrisN]

NOTAMs have increased in volume enormously since I started gliding in 1970.

Then, it was about 1 ½ pages of items for a week, for the whole country or perhaps just the whole FIR, plus a map, IIRC. Hardly ever anything to worry about – the occasional royal flight, airshows, not much else. (The UK AIP was updated by separate paper amendments.)

I have seen a 31 page printout of a complete set under the current system. We see lamp posts moved, taxiway repairs. All sorts of stuff irrelevant to GA flying – but it is the universal way to tell everyone anything they might need to know including things that later go into the UK AIP. Thank goodness we also have a filter system – narrow route, point brief or whatever.

Some of the increase is in things never done, or never NOTAMmed in the old days – bird training, rockets, etc.

Chris N

[ShyTorque]

I agree there is a lot of "semi-permanent dross" in the NOTAMS, however, it's obviously important to know in advance about TDAs, TRAs, Temporary Class A airspace etc.

Otherwise the first time you might know about their existence is in retrospect, via a nasty invitation from the enforcement branch of the CAA.

I've never found any problem using the AIS NOTAM website system. What do pilots find so unsatisfactory about it?

[dont overfil]

It is better than it was but it is not friendly for the bimblers. (According to my limited knowledge of the system.)

Narrow route brief is fine on a pre planned route.

Airfield notam is fine for the specific airfield.

Is there a way of getting notams for say a 30 mile radius of an airfield without getting the whole FIR?

D.O.

[ShyTorque]

Is there a way of getting notams for say a 30 mile radius of an airfield without getting the whole FIR?

Not something I normally do because I'm usually going somewhere else.

However, Click on "Point Brief" and put in a radius of 30nm.....

I just tried this; for some reason it also gave me enroute info for the EGPX FIR (the point I put in was an airfield in EGTT but that's easily discounted simply by not reading it).

The radius seemed to work OK because I see only the usual NOTAMS in the local area that I'm already aware of.

[thing]

Don't forget to put on your own airfield identifier in the point brief, you'll get your own Notams then.

[dont overfil]

Thanks ShyTorque &
Thing,

Ahh! I was just going to say that I used the airfield identifier as the point but it did not give me the airfield notams.

That might explain it. I'll try again.

I'll never nip anybodies ear again for not reading the notams.

D.O.

[Prop swinger]

I just tried this; for some reason it also gave me enroute info for the EGPX FIRThe Scottish FIR data appears there because the originators of the NOTAM gave it an effective radius of 999 miles.

[ShyTorque]

The Scottish FIR data appears there because the originators of the NOTAM gave it an effective radius of 999 miles.

Aha! The Scottish folk are always trying it on :ok:

[DC10RealMan]

I always log onto the AIS website to check NOTAMs prior to flying anywhere, not only to check the information but in the event of an accident and subsequent insurance claim the insurers may try to wriggle out of their liabilities by claiming that the pilot did not check the NOTAMs which are a legal requirement.

The AIS website can record whether an individual pilot logged into and out of the AIS website and what information was accessed.

[peterh337]

I am no lawyer but wonder if that would work (denying a payout) because one can get a briefing from countless other sources, both wx and notams.

The insurer is obliged to meet the claim unless he can get out of it, and he could never prove (on a balance of probability) that the pilot did not a briefing from a different source.

Wx briefing is also a legal requirement, I think, but the same issue applies. How many pilots brief from the UKMO website?

[Tim Dawson]

It's worth noting that while there may be a legal obligation to check the NOTAMs, it doesn't say which source you should get them from. The AIS website has just as many disclaimers as other sources (more, in fact, usually) about the data.

[chrisN]

And for those who check notams (e.g. at home) hours or even days before an intended flight:

1. Don’t forget the update feature on the AIS site – just tells you anything that changed; and


2. Don’t forget the free telephone call system you can use at the aerodrome just before take-off – tells you anything new, e.g. TRA due to a fuel store fire etc.

The AIS system may not be as user-friendly as some, but it is u/f enough to serve, and can be up to date to the minute.

It would be hard for any insurer to be dubious if one has used the official system, either on its own or as a cross-check on what other systems tell.

Chris N.

[thing]

While we're on the topic, there are always Notams for flying of 'large metal kites' around here. What is a large metal kite? May I pre empt the obvious and say that I know it's a large metal kite.........

[dont overfil]

I don't know about the kites, but I was talking to a guy the other day responsible for a "model rockets" notam.

He assures me they are not the model rockets you may think of.
They are military rockets.

D.O.

[ShyTorque]

Metal kites? If it's the one I'm thinking of, large birds of prey are trained to fly to and from it. Try ringing the originator's contact telephone number and he will explain all.

[riverrock83]

See what happens when you forget to check notams...
BBC News - 'Pot plane' invades President Barack Obama's airspace (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17070962)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't know about the kites, but I was talking to a guy the other day responsible for a "model rockets" notam.

He assures me they are not the model rockets you may think of.
They are military rockets.

D.O.

I used to be quite involved with amateur rocketry.

They may be tiny little things the size and mass of a chocolate bar, maybe making 2000ft. They may be the size of a sidewinder, albeit massing "only" a few kg, and reaching 5000ft+.

The biggest danger with model rockets is probably not whilst they're on their way up - the flight time is very short and a visual check for aircraft is always made. It is probably whilst the payload is slowly making its way back down under a parachute, most likely drifting, and clearly under no control. There may be a longish cord between the chute and the payload, which could quite probably bugger up a prop, or a payload which might be in a metal case (particularly if it includes the casing of a larger rocket motor) that would make you wish for a good straightforward birdstrike.

G

[Dan Winterland]

And I bet the crew of this aircraft wish the 'Work in progress' NOTAM had actually been published in the first place!

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/c130_crackup_3.jpg