Some observed differences in round engines and jets

[rubberband2]

Some observed differences in round engines and jets

1. To be a real pilot you have to fly a tail dragger for an absolute minimum of 500 hours.
2. Large round engines smell of gasoline (115/145), rich oil, hydraulic fluid, man sweat and are not air-conditioned.
3. Engine failure to the jet pilot means something is wrong with his air conditioner.
4. When you take off in a jet there is no noise in the cockpit. (This does not create a macho feeling of doing something manly).
5. Landing a jet just requires a certain airspeed and altitude---at which you cut the power and drop like a rock to the runway.
Landing a round engine tail dragger requires finesse, prayer, body English, pumping of rudder pedals and a lot of nerve.
6. After landing, a jet just goes straight down the runway.
7. A radial tail dragger is like a wild mustang---it might decide to go anywhere. Gusting winds help this behavior a lot.
8. You cannot fill your Zippo lighter with jet fuel.
9. Starting a jet is like turning on a light switch---a little click and it is on.
10. Starting a round engine is an artistic endeavor requiring prayer (curse words) and sometimes meditation.
11. Jet engines don't break, spill oil or catch on fire very often which leads to boredom and complacency.
12. The round engine may blow an oil seal ring, burst into flame, splutter for no apparent reason or just quit. This results in heightened pilot awareness at all times.
13. Jets smell like a kerosene lantern at a scout camp outing.
14. Round engines smell like God intended engines to smell, and the tail dragger is the way God intended for man to fly.
16. Round engines have a tendency to make strange noises, especially at night over water.

[ZH875]

I always thought Jet engines were round.......


....are they square?

[Courtney Mil]

Very good. Actually, you can run a zippo on jet fuel. I did for years.:ok:

[Fareastdriver]

Absolutely correct R2. I was lucky because I learn't to fly on big round supercharged radials. A short time, three years, on boring stovies and then back on to real aeroplanes of the helicopter variety. Even with that three year stint it was a fantastic forty-eight years.

[jayteeto]

Zippos go well on kerosene, I reckon they would be plain scary on AVGAS!!

[Sideshow Bob]

Zippos go well on kerosene, I reckon they would be plain scary on AVGAS!!

Not as scary as they are on AVPIN :eek:

[Bubblewindow]

Zippos go well on kerosene, I reckon they would be plain scary on AVGAS!!

Yes, 100LL produced quite a flame!! Switched to Avtur after that and it smelled nicer also!! Nothing like the smell of a jet lighting your fag!!*
*= gave up smoking years ago!

[NutLoose]

The Propeller on the front of single engined aircraft is there simply to keep the pilot cool, if it stops, he soon starts to sweat...

[VX275]

There is of course a single engined aircraft in RAF service where turning the engine off in flight is encouraged (and mandatory if the pax is on helicopters).

[walter kennedy]

actually was quietly relieved that the piston Provosts were retired just before our course in '77 :O

[NutherA2]

piston Provosts were retired just before our course in '77

Did they really serve that long? The ones I flew in basic training (1954/55) were brand new; we thought they were great aircraft, especially when +8lb boost was available and the main spars hadn't started cracking yet.

[rubberband2]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/160449100_LwDQk-O.jpg


...... possibly landing at RAF Spitalgate grass airfield on the edge of Grantham, Lincolnshire circa 1956

[SASless]

12. The round engine may blow an oil seal ring, burst into flame, splutter for no apparent reason or just quit. This results in heightened pilot awareness at all times.

16. Round engines have a tendency to make strange noises, especially at night over water.

OH MY....Yessss!

Think Sikorsky CH-34.....and something akin to "BRRRRRRRRRRRRR....BRUPPPH......Silence...BRUPPHPOP...POP...P OP....Silence....BRRRRRRRRRRR!"

Nothing beats leaning the mixture on the the ol' girl by looking at the exhaust stack in dim light. Such a beautiful blue with a hint of Hades in it!

[NutLoose]

Chuck a Goose at a jet and it's ENDEX, chuck a Goose at a prop and it's Foie Gras.

I have seen engines running with cylinders missing, fit a new pot, chuck some oil in it and off it goes..

[line unicorn]

as i dont belong to the exhaulted breed of aircrew (seat stick interface or talking ballast) but a poor humble sootie i can only deffend the the gas turbine by saying yes i have prayed a few times with cart start and milked the throttle to start the b####r.... and to the man who put AVPIN in a ZIPPO are you mental :=;)

[Old Fella]

Line Unicorn. Mate, there is no need to feel humble about being a "sootie". There is also nothing "exalted" about being aircrew. Truth is we all are/were just doing our jobs and that is the fact of it. As for starting a jet engine "being just like flicking a light switch", whomever wrote that never started a Derwent in the old Meteor. Stuff up with it and half the base would know. Don't know if you are still swinging the spanners, but if you are keep it up, those "exalted" aircrew need you.

[BEagle]

...... possibly landing at RAF Spitalgate grass airfield on the edge of Grantham, Lincolnshire circa 1956

More likely to have been displaying at Old Warden quite recently?

[Fareastdriver]

More likely to have been displaying at Old Warden quite recently?

I agree. A camoflage finish and those peculiar roundels; come on. It would have started off with orange bands on the wings and fuselage and later, when I flew it at Tern Hill in early 1961, dayglow strips.

I went back to Tern Hill a few years later and found myself with a handfull of Leonides again; this time in a Sycamore helicopter. The difference with the engine was the use of Manifold Air Pressure instead of Boost. MAP started at 15 inches; boost at Zero. 2 inches equalled 1 lb of boost so 31 inches was the same as 8 lbs of Boost.

Piston Provost.
Emergency T/O 8 lbs Boost
Take off 4.5 lbs
Cruise 0 lbs

Bristol Sycamore
Lift into hover 31 ins MAP
Hover 30 ins
Hover taxiing 30/31 ins
Transition and initial climb 31 ins plus rotor droop.
Cruise 24 ins

Surprisingly they both cruised at the same speed; 120 knots.

[C130 Techie]

9. Starting a jet is like turning on a light switch---a little click and it is on.

Clearly never had the pleasure of starting the Avons fitted to the Lightning then. Wheeee Phutt!

[rubberband2]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/PistonProvost.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

Basic flying training on a Provost T1 with a bonedome??????? You can't hear the final wheezes and pharts before it goes BANGGGG>

[airsound]

It wasn't a 'Piston Provost', it was a (Percival) Provost T Mk1. The 'piston' bit only crept in after the constant-power-variable-noise machine arrived.
Removes pedant hat

And as far as I can remember from a six-week stint at Spitalgate while the Barkston Heath runway was resurfaced, there weren't any trees on the approach.

At the time, Spitalgate was the WRAF basic trg school, or somesuch, and a lot of flight cadets were to be seen hanging around in those rather strange ill-fitting grey flying suits we had, ready to answer, in a very cool way, "Why, yes, I'm a pilot, how did you know?"

[brakedwell]

...... possibly landing at RAF Spitalgate grass airfield on the edge of Grantham, Lincolnshire circa 1956

A agree with Beagle, that was taken recently. In 1956 Provosts were painted like this and we weren't issued with bone domes until starting the Vampire course.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Provcopy.jpg

[Wwyvern]

The Provost XF877, photographed earlier, was civvy-registered G-AWVF. It was the Provost whose engine failed dramatically on 9 Jul 09, probably incapacitating the pilot who died in the crash.

Cranwell cadets who trained during 1958 were issued bonedomes on arrival at College.

[Fareastdriver]

My poor old log book is getting a hammering during this thread. So much so that the pages are falling out.

[BEagle]

More information about the Shuttleworth Provost T Mk1, together with the reason for its camouflaged finish, can be seen at: Shuttleworth Old Warden Park - The Shuttleworth Aircraft Collection (http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttleworth-collection/aircraft-details.asp?ID=39)

[brakedwell]

My poor old log book is getting a hammering during this thread. So much so that the pages are falling out.

WV441 was at Ternhill, so it could have figured in your log book.

[Fareastdriver]

Lots of WV44s, but not 441. I flew XF603 a few times but not XF877. Judging by the paintwork that was an ex Sleaford Tech aircraft and they wouldn't have allowed it to be soiled by the hands of mere Direct Entry students.

[rubberband2]

And as far as I can remember from a six-week stint at Spitalgate while the Barkston Heath runway was resurfaced, there weren't any trees on the approach.

The most frequent final approach to Spitalgate was made over the dead straight N - S Roman road with the nose of the Percival Piston Provost pointing towards Grantham. This brought you in over some clumps of tallish Beech type trees next to the road.

At night the grass strip was illuminated with oil burning 'goose-necks'.
It was a demanding approach for a low hour novice to cross trees in a 550 HP radial, keep an eye on the rudimentary slope indicator (what was it called?) and then round out into the smoky flarepath. But it instilled a very rewarding psychology: the will to readily & fearlessly overcome the many random deviations that occur on short finals.

[just another jocky]

What a load of romantic claptrap. :rolleyes: ;)

Engines are there to give forward motion, so you can get to where you are planning to go and do whatever it is you have been tasked to do.

And Nutloose...I have seen/flown through enough birdstrikes that have gone down the engine to know that your statement is incorrect. Some jet engines may die, some not. It isn't a 100% science.

I'd far rather my engine started reliably the first time I attempt to start it.

I can hear my jet engine on take-off, honest.

I'm quite happy if my jet is easy to land.....more chance of me flying them for 20+ years and not having any issues.

I don't smoke.

I have flown the Chipmunk and still fly wooden-prop'd aircraft today...give me a jet engine every time. :p

[airsound]

The most frequent final approach to Spitalgate was made over the dead straight N - S Roman roadActually, rubberband, I don't remember it that way. I do have to say that my memory is fallible in the extreme. But I have a distinct feeling that the grass runway, marked with black and yellow markerboards by day and, as you say, goosenecks by night, was roughly parallel to that road. That made it pretty similar to the Barkston runway - perhaps 04/22? (the road isn't quite N-S)

[aw ditor]

Rubberband2

It all worked very well as described until the good denizens of Grantham turned out the lights at midnight, then you got lost downwind!

[airsound]

aw ditor - one thing I do remember about that Spitalgate downwind leg was - never mind getting lost, the done thing at the end of the solo night cross-country was to do a slow roll downwind.

Personally, I scared myself fartless. In fact, I think I learned about flying from that....

[Fareastdriver]

I have flown the Chipmunk

That's not a propellor driven aircraft. That's just a put-putt with a fan on the front for u/t pilots to learn on. OK on serobatics until you run out of height.

[curvedsky]

airsound wrote (#33) in a thread about the differences in handling early piston & jet aircraft.....

– the done thing at the end of the solo night cross-country was to do a slow roll downwind –

Presumably he was thinking about his pocket Nintendo.
If so, some further advice on how & when to use top rudder during the roll will be appreciated. It was always a difficult judgment, at height on a VFR day, particularly so if the roll was a slow elegant 360º rotation without losing height.

[airsound]

curvedsky - yes, it was the culmination of the solo night cross country. June 1960. I can only assume the QFIs (and air traffic) were turning a blind eye. I well remember watching from our dispersal as pairs of nav lights (no anti-collision beacons then, of course) made their way along that downwind leg (roughly over the road that rubberband talked about in post #29) and then slowly rotated all the way round before returning to upright and then turning onto base leg.

Then it was my turn. I suppose I probably did a practice roll somewhere during the navex - can't remember. And as you say, curvedskyIt was always a difficult judgment, at height on a VFR day, particularly so if the roll was a slow elegant 360º rotation without losing height.I decided to allow myself an unusually high start to the downwind leg. As far as I can remember, I lost about 500ft - and it was anything but slow and elegant. So, I'm afraid any advice I might offer on top rudder is probably worthless.

On the other hand, we did all survive. And it was more than 50 years ago. Somehow, I can't see it happening today. Many will say that's a good thing.

Btw, I do apologise for appalling thread drift.

[Fareastdriver]

You could always tell when somebody had done aerobatics during a navex. After they had shut the aircraft down you could see them searching the cockpit for their maps. The number of foreign pilots trained on the Provost was quite considerable as this photo of my course shows.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Provostcourse.jpg

This was 'A' flight' They were:
One Royal Jordanian Air Force.
Two Lebenese Air Force.
Three Royal Malaysian Air Force.
One RAF NCO remustered to GD Officer.
One RAF Eng Officer remustered to GD.
One ex National Service pilot remustered as GD. He had to forfeit his old wings and start again from scratch.
Four Direct Entry GD pilots.

'B' flight consisted of the entire pilot strength of the Ghanaian Air Force. Rumour had it that they met a sticky end on a beach when Nkrumah was overthown.

[walter kennedy]

NUthera2
Rhodesian Air force used them until mid 70's when Siai Marchetti 260s replaced them - 31 PTC was first course to use the new ones.

[NutLoose]

And Nutloose...I have seen/flown through enough birdstrikes that have gone down the engine to know that your statement is incorrect. Some jet engines may die, some not. It isn't a 100% science.


We are talking geese, not many will walk away from an encounter with them... True I have changed a lot of bird struck engines, your average sparrow won't do much, a goose though tends to leave its mark though, and a human if you have ever seen the dreadful continental engine pictures sadly even more :(

They are an eye opener :sad: and one reason I get so peeved at these people trespassing on aircraft and airports.

[brakedwell]

Five or six herring gulls commited suicide by flying into the right engine of my B757 shortly before rotate at Manchester. The RB211 was shut down because it exceeded the vibration limits. Three fan blades were replaced and the aircraft departed to Corfu with a fresh crew several hours later.

[Prangster]

I say chaps lets here it for the in line pistons too. Who can forget the shudder running through Shack airframe care of Mr Royces mighty Griffons or the burbling hum of Mr De Havillands nice little Chippy motor.....Get in line for gods sake.:)

[finestkind]

Hmmm from memory and a wee bit of experience

"a slow screw always beat a quick blow job and therefore two slow screws always etc etc"

[nevw]

Starting Goblin Powered Vampires was almost tha same as starting the Derwent 8s In the Meteor. Then DH got smart and modified the the Fuel control unit and then just before pushed the start button you just take the HP Cock to full on. no compressor stall, no over temp, no 50 foot og flame out of the jet pipe.

[Danny42C]

nevw,

Welcome aboard ! Do you remember the "wet starts" in the Vampire ? and that part of your walkaround was to check tail pipe for NAAFI meat pie left by ground crew (as it was nice and hot in there). IIRC, it was not all that much trouble to start as the Derwent in the Meteor - now that was a real pain !

Big radial piston taildraggers forever ! :ok:

Danny42C.

[ian16th]

The Vampire & Venom carried an asbestos 'blanket' to protect the paintwork on the tail, from wet starts!