Ships have ADSB sort of !

[T28D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWOP-UBVO0M&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWOP-UBVO0M&feature=youtu.be)

[Monopole]

Actually, it's 100 times better then ADSB. It's called AIS and not only does it display a position in relation to you, but it also gives its lat and long, whether it's underway with its speed, it's departure and destination port, the vessels name and also the position on the vessels the transponder is located. All on a ship that is likely to do only 30 kts....

[Dan Winterland]

Marine electronics are pretty advanced compared with aviation. For example, my boat's VHF has SELCAL built in, can send text messages, can simultanously receive three frequencies, is waterproof to a depth of 2 metres, can vary it's transmit power to prevent unwanted chat, can receive GPS position and time info and will send an automatic distress message if required complete with position every five minutes until either the boat sinks or the battereis run out.

And it costs about a fifth of an aircraft's VHF set.

[VH-XXX]

A VHF radio like that in an aircraft would be too complex for many pilots these days to understand and operate it.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Heres the amateur version - just click on a ship.

Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?level0=100)

[alphacentauri]

and they also have a system very similar to WAAS. With nearly entire coverage on Australia's coastline....including major airports.

[Sunfish]

Been using AIS on my yacht for Three years - its a $200 receiver that hooks to my VHF antenna via a splitter and runs a 38400 baud RS232 output to my chart plotting computer.

AIS targets are overlaid on my charts and the time and distance of closest approach is computed in real time. Anything that looks like its closest approach is within my preset range ring appears in red.

Only issues - updates are every Two minutes. Vessels under 500 tons are not required to carry AIS class A tranceivers. At least half the merchant ship fleet don't give a f*** about anything smaller than they are, they work on the "big ocean" theory, set the autopilot and go to sleep.

[clark y]

A question for you mariners who seem to know about this stuff.
Ignoring cost, how easy/hard would it be to fit ship and oil rigs with ADSB (and maybe VHF repeater stations) so that aircraft can be ADSB identified oceanic. i.e. out over the Indian ocean and across the Tasman? Would there be enough maritime activity to make it work?

Sorry that's 2 questions.

Clark y.

[Capn Bloggs]

Those new-fangled marine gadgets aren't all they're swept up to be:

"The GPS wasn't reading correctly and the next minute I look up into pitch black- there was no moon- and there's white water in front of me,"

Brothers rescued after boat hits rocks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-26/men-wait-rescue-after-boat-sinks/3794396)

:eek: :}

[Sunfish]

Don't think its practical, furthermore ADSB relies on a "squitter" transmission every Two minutes or so. I'm not sure if there is the bandwidth to handle aircraft since you would need to transmit at less than 30 second intervals to get a meaningful track.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Ohhhhhh this warms the heart:ok: All been said before.

Seriously! If this kit was available about twenty years ago, my best mate's dad would probably still be alive. His trawler was run down in the middle of the night by a container ship. All that was left on top was a slick a navigation light board and a scratch on the hull of the ship.

[scrufflefish]

Just like in flying, you shoudn't rely on the gadgets. Keep your position plotted on a paper chart and practice your DR skills so you have some idea where you are if the electronics don't.
Instead of being used to ensure a greater margin of safety, electronic nav gadgets are too often used to go to places you wouldn't have gone without them. I know because I'm guilty of doing it in the air and on the water. Lesson learned, lucky the bucket of luck wasn't empty!

[Flying Binghi]

via OZBUSDRIVER; ...If this kit was available about twenty years ago, my best mate's dad would probably still be alive. His trawler was run down in the middle of the night by a container ship. All that was left on top was a slick a navigation light board and a scratch on the hull of the ship.


Hmmm.... Time to have a look-see at the claims - OZBUSDRIVER, is there some sort of official report on this accident ?

.............:hmm:






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[OZBUSDRIVER]

You are a Queenslander, Binghi have a look for the "Edward Thomas"

[Flying Binghi]

You are a Queenslander, Binghi have a look for the "Edward Thomas"

Heh, and here's me thinkin i were a Territorian in QLD'er clothes..:)


I had a look-see fer "Edward Thomas" ...seems a big look. Perhaps a few more key words would help..:ok:




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[OZBUSDRIVER]

That is as much info as I am giving.

[Mach E Avelli]

The great thing about AIS is that it will set off an alarm and wake you up, if (as in my case), you sail solo and need to get shut-eye on passage.
It gives plenty of notice to allow avoiding action. Usually an early radio call to a ship will have them alter course if you need sea-room or are becalmed, hove-to etc. The officer of the watch is usually so bored he is quite happy to be given something to think about. Though English comprehension is sometimes an issue.....
The only problem with relying on AIS is that smaller vessels like trawlers and long-liners are not required to have a transmitter. They - to my mind - are more of a menace to a small yacht because there are more of them out there, they drag stuff miles astern and the crews are too busy fishing to bother with a look-out.
Aviation is safer by a long way.

[T28D]

Bus driver is that Edward Thomas the Tank Engine ??????

[OZBUSDRIVER]

NO...it was a real trawler and a very real incident that resulted in two fatalities!
http://monumentaustralia.org.au/content/directory/full/Derek_Bill-5128-92496.jpg

Sometimes you two have no idea at all!

[Jabawocky]

I remember it quite well, was a member of the MBBC and kept our boat Newport marina at Scarborough.

Was a sad moment in time over there.

[Flying Binghi]

via Mach E Avelli #17; ...Aviation is safer by a long way.

Yes, we pilots use wind up clocks to wake us up..:)





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[Flying Binghi]

via OZBUSDRIVER;

That is as much info as I am giving.

---------------------------------

NO...it was a real trawler and a very real incident that resulted in two fatalities!

Sometimes you two have no idea at all!



OZBUSDRIVER, You introduced the subject to this discussion thread. If yer dont want to discuss an issue dont bring it up..:hmm:





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[Jabawocky]

From the outside it looked like he was happy to discuss it. You were not happy accepting he was telling the truth. You then had a poor attempt at research:ugh: and then proceed with your usual form.

One google search, two mouse clicks Edward Thomas Shipwreck (http://www.maaq.org.au/wreck/222_Edward_Thomas.php)

You treat everyone with contempt (not just on pprune), like they are all out to lie and deceive you, and then when you get caught out again, you resort to OZBUSDRIVER, You introduced the subject to this discussion thread. If yer dont want to discuss an issue dont bring it up..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Quit the personal stalking and abuse. You might find life is happier that way. And people might actually be happier talking about things with you in return.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Thanks for your support, Jaba:ok:

T28 and FB, what can I say. I do not BS about stuff like this. You two of all people should know I only deal in facts:hmm:

I just wish things could have been different. Derek was there on the Tuesday when I left for Townsville, the next night he was gone. Just like that.

True, Jaba. The Bills were very well respected around the Scarbie prawning community. That was one hell of a month.

[Flying Binghi]

From the outside it looked like he was happy to discuss it. You were not happy accepting he was telling the truth. You then had a poor attempt at research:ugh: and then proceed with your usual form.

One google search, two mouse clicks Edward Thomas Shipwreck (http://www.maaq.org.au/wreck/222_Edward_Thomas.php)

You treat everyone with contempt (not just on PPRuNe), like they are all out to lie and deceive you, and then when you get caught out again, you resort to Quote:
OZBUSDRIVER, You introduced the subject to this discussion thread. If yer dont want to discuss an issue dont bring it up..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif
Quit the personal stalking and abuse. You might find life is happier that way. And people might actually be happier talking about things with you in return.




Hmmm... Jabawocky, me-thinks yer comments reveal a lot about your personality..:hmm:

Fer me own part, ive been involved in nearly all the ADS-B related threads since i joined pprune. I have also been in debate with OZBUSDRIVER many times reference ADS-B. OZBUSDRIVER has started several threads spruiking ADS-B. I have started several threads relating to my concerns for the viability of civvy GPS/ADS-B reference terrorist concerns.

Jabawocky, i thinks i'm perfectly entitled to question any ADS-B related issue/matter that the ADS-B spruiking OZBUSDRIVER cares to put forward. As i says, if OZBUSDRIVER dont want to discuss the matter, then dont bring it up.






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[OZBUSDRIVER]

FB, stop the personal stuff.

I only put that incident in as an example of what could have happened if the kit was available back in 1990.

That is as much info as I am giving.


That is code to say...you have got enough info to look for your self.

Nuff Said!

[Flying Binghi]

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OoooKaaayyy...

Back to my original question to this thread -

via #13; OZBUSDRIVER, is there some sort of official report on this accident ?


I'll repeat the question so it might sink in - OZBUSDRIVER, is there some sort of official report on this accident ?



....:hmm:






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[Jabawocky]

HAHAHAHHAHAHA LMAO

Since when have you answered fully questions asked of you?

Ozbus, you can't ignore this, or maybe you can, but that last post is GOLD. He does not get it. And he thinks he can personality assess my posts..:}

The Qld coroners court records do not go back that far on the internet. Why don't you go into town and research them for yourself.

[T28D]

Yes he DOES GET IT !!! the shadow of a hidden and retorical question by the Busdriver and then the cryptic and passe' offhand response is not at all consistent with a open disclosure of the stated incident.

To throw a line of inquiry out there and now in the view of a second respondent to have to go to the Coroners court to research something that is far and away from the central discussiion is facile.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

And now going back to the original post.... ADS-B of sorts, yes that is true...But look at what you have posted and make a more positive post. In the aviation sense this is the equivalent of....and I hate to say this...tracking the last minutes of that Navajo going in to YHOT..or...proving beyond doubt that Cheyanne going in to BLA actual did have a failed GPS and was giving erronious data.

With the Costa Concordia accident, your link proved how long that ship drifted after hitting a well marked rock outcrop. That smells so much of negligence on the part of the skipper. Strict Liability! Sir your GPS track CLEARLY shows you hitting the rocks at this time. Why did it take you so long to declare an emergency?

WRT my post....mate, it would clearly show the track of the Edward Thomas as it worked . It would have clearly shown the track of the container ship...questions asked and answers demanded...and we would have known!

EDIT???? I am not sure that maritime charts actually do show fisheries...they certainly show where you cannot fish

[OZBUSDRIVER]

OK, This is old and it still hurts. I never got to read the coroners report. End story, a death certificate couldn't be issued for seven years because of the circumstances around the incident. The Edward Thomas was lost at sea. Fellow trawler operators searched the area and found the slick. That particular trawler dragged the floor(sand) with his net until he hooked up on what was hoped was the Edward Thomas. He Tied a drum line and cut his net to mark the spot. During the next 48 hours my mate had to hire a twin at full rate to fly the area for their own search. I believe Rescue 1 and the seven news chopper also flew extensively in the area in the vain hope of finding the two crew alive. When investigations began all that was found of the Edward Thomas was one of the roof mounted navlights which was smashed and some deck gear. Investigations of all the ships that passed through that area found one with scrape marks along the hull on the water line. To this day, I believe there were no charges and frankly, it will never bring Derek back.

There was a standing order with the Navy if they had their survey boat passing through they would drop a ROV down to inspect the wreck...this has never been undertaken nor any urges to the same. The Authorities attempted to send a camera down the previously mentioned line but currents proved too strong. Essentially, the whole thing was inconclusive. It still leaves me sad. For years one of the guys I used to play sport with looked soo much like Derek, it was hard to play against him without thinking of that terrible loss.

That is as much as I can remember of that Easter 1990.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Since when have you answered fully questions asked of you?

?????? And here I was thinking you guys couldn't put up an argument because I quoted references to everything I submit.:ugh:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

http://www.amsa.gov.au/publications/ais_brochure.pdf

A good simple description of how it works....TDMA and VDL....so that tech does have uses:E

[Flying Binghi]

via OZBUSDRIVER; http://www.amsa.gov.au/publications/ais_brochure.pdf

A good simple description of how it works....TDMA and VDL....so that tech does have uses


Dang!... OZBUSDRIVER, yer fooled me, ah never woulda thought yer innocent little first post here woulda led to yer spruiking that nuatical ADS-B called AIS..:hmm:





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[OZBUSDRIVER]

If thats all you wanted me to do then.....seeya

[T28D]

I love this stuff when technology goes full circle and we are back where we started sort of 10 years later VDL and TDMA now who would have thunk that !!!!!!!!! seems tried and tested technology works well.

[LeadSled]

VDL, TDMA (and CDMA) ----- but what is aviation ADS-B --- a very limited and limiting adaption of a bit of WWII "technology", the 1090ES transponder ---- a very inferior and expensive substitute of a modern datalink, like VDL4 ADS-B/C (TDMA datalink) or UAT ADS-B/C (CDMA datalink)
Tootle pip!!

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... its like primary school all over again..:hmm:

Well, lets have a look see at what the big secret were and if it relates to ADS-B...

via OZBUSDRIVER;
...WRT my post....mate, it would clearly show the track of the Edward Thomas as it worked . It would have clearly shown the track of the container ship...questions asked and answers demanded...and we would have known!...



OZBUSDRIVER,What were the conditions at the time of the ET sinking ? Dark ? Stormy ? Foggy ?....



via OZBUSDRIVER;

OK, This is old and it still hurts. I never got to read the coroners report. End story, a death certificate couldn't be issued for seven years because of the circumstances around the incident. The Edward Thomas was lost at sea. Fellow trawler operators searched the area and found the slick. That particular trawler dragged the floor(sand) with his net until he hooked up on what was hoped was the Edward Thomas. He Tied a drum line and cut his net to mark the spot. During the next 48 hours my mate had to hire a twin at full rate to fly the area for their own search. I believe Rescue 1 and the seven news chopper also flew extensively in the area in the vain hope of finding the two crew alive. When investigations began all that was found of the Edward Thomas was one of the roof mounted navlights which was smashed and some deck gear. Investigations of all the ships that passed through that area found one with scrape marks along the hull on the water line. To this day, I believe there were no charges and frankly, it will never bring Derek back.

There was a standing order with the Navy if they had their survey boat passing through they would drop a ROV down to inspect the wreck...this has never been undertaken nor any urges to the same. The Authorities attempted to send a camera down the previously mentioned line but currents proved too strong. Essentially, the whole thing was inconclusive. It still leaves me sad. For years one of the guys I used to play sport with looked soo much like Derek, it was hard to play against him without thinking of that terrible loss.

That is as much as I can remember of that Easter 1990.

OZBUSDRIVER, if there were floating survivors, would a personal EPIRB been of any use ?


via OZBUSDRIVER;

And now going back to the original post.... ADS-B of sorts, yes that is true...But look at what you have posted and make a more positive post. In the aviation sense this is the equivalent of....and I hate to say this...tracking the last minutes of that Navajo going in to YHOT..or...proving beyond doubt that Cheyanne going in to BLA actual did have a failed GPS and was giving erronious data.

With the Costa Concordia accident, your link proved how long that ship drifted after hitting a well marked rock outcrop. That smells so much of negligence on the part of the skipper. Strict Liability! Sir your GPS track CLEARLY shows you hitting the rocks at this time. Why did it take you so long to declare an emergency?

WRT my post....mate, it would clearly show the track of the Edward Thomas as it worked . It would have clearly shown the track of the container ship...questions asked and answers demanded...and we would have known!

EDIT???? I am not sure that maritime charts actually do show fisheries...they certainly show where you cannot fish



"...your GPS track CLEARLY shows you hitting the rocks at this time..."

Proof of hitting rocks at a particular time!!!...I think a feckin big half sunk boat just off the coast with a feckin big rip down the side and a feckin big mess of forensicably testable paint on a certain rock out crop and times of phone calls to the coast gaurd is probably all thats needed. A GPS track record is just saying the same thing..:hmm:

(Note - i am not judging the captain as being in the wrong - Why/how it happened is fer the investigators to work out.)

Edit addem - Who is to say the GPS were telling the boat 'driver' the correct info ? Are Data cards incorruptable ?







.





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[Flying Binghi]

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Oh dear, attempt to have a close look-see at any claims from OZBUSDRIVER / Jabawocky and we get.......




..........:hmm:






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