French IR training at Limoges

[peterh337]

Just got this...

L (http://www.aerobuzz.fr/spip.php?article2415)

Theory is done with the Mermoz Institute in Paris (2 days' presence required in Paris, then 18 mths max. home study). Cost: € 1,164 (FFA licence holders)

News (http://www.institut-mermoz.com/)

So that is similar to the present UK FTO package, which is about a grand to get signed off to sit the CAA exams.

Practical training: + 30 hours with the club in Limoges on either the club 172 (with EFIS Aspen EFD Pro 1000) at €174 / hour of instruction, all taxes included + 10 hours with an FTO. Limoges is using "Envol 2001" based in Arcachon Envol 2001 - Ecole de formation au pilotage (http://www.envol-2001.com/)

The article doesn't mention cost of instruction with the FTO which is normally a lot higher.

Also of interest: The theory and practical parts can be done simultaneously.

Limoges Aéroclub has decided to get involved in IR training in a bid to boost their activity. The FFA (Fédération Française Aéronautique
FFA - Fédération Française Aéronautique - FFA (http://www.ffa-aero.fr/siteffaprod_web/accueil.awp) )
reckon there are as many as 2000 private pilots interested in this qualification....

I gather that this IR is taught in French and is for French Nationals only, but it shows what is happening w.r.t. EASA, in the one country in Europe which has a backbone.

[Cobalt]

A few questions

- it is an IR PRIVÉ, so presumably can only be attached to a PPL. Are there amy other restrictions associated with it?

- will this rating be valid (a) outside France or (b) on non F-Reg EASA aircraft?

- is the theory syllabus significantly smaller than the JAA/EASA IR theory? How many exams?

or, in other words, is it more like the IMC rating (national, HUGELY smaller syllabus, higher min visibility, etc.) or more like the full IR? [NB - "Class A" privileges are not really relevant here as in France airways up to FL120(?) are class E]

[Whopity]

So long as you are a French National you should be OK, not sure how that fits in with Euro rules. You can bet that if its ICAO compliant, it will miraculously become an EASA IR! But at least the French are looking after their own!

[chrisbl]

I bet you still have to be able to NDB holds

[peterh337]

A lot has already been published on this French IR.

It is fully ICAO compliant so will be valid outside France, so French airspace (Class A base FL200, in general) is not relevant.

I think Whopity is right, and I think the French introduced this for one or both of the following reasons

1. In collusion (at the time, anyway :) ) with EASA, so as to create a fait accompli situation for the acceptance of the FCL008 IR proposal ("look, the French have already got it and it obviously works").

2. In the knowledge that the FCL008 IR is doomed (but no modern country actually wants to shaft its N-reg community)

I say this because the French IR is significantly more training-bulky than the proposed FCL008 IR (now called the CBM IR).

[proudprivate]

Why would FCL008 be doomed ?

[peterh337]

I should have written

In the belief that the FCL008 IR is doomed.

There are some big political issues with the proposal, which will cause some powerful interests to try to block it.

Should also add that I've got an email from a French pilot saying that the publicity around the French IR is that it is for French airspace only. Of course, if the final regulation doesn't actually say that, and it is ICAO compliant, then it will be valid worldwide, end of story... that is how aviation paperwork works.

[FlyingLapinou]

For the time being, this national rating is valid in French airspace only, but Peter's right, it could morph into something pan-European.

The following comments were published by AOPA France:

This is a French only rating.
How can it evolve in the future?
AOPA France and the French CAA have been very careful to stick to ICAO requirements and exceed them in all aspects of the training. Therefore, the French Instrument rating for Private Pilots is ICAO compliant.
EASA, the European Aviation Safety Agency, has put together a working group that is working on solving exactly the same problems that have given birth to the French rating. We are hoping that the French experience will be used by EASA to speed up the work undertaken by the FCL 008 workgroup.
In the meantime, other countries in Europe could decide to accept the French rating as an ICAO compliant rating, signing a sort of bilateral agreement with France under which French rated pilots could fly into other European countries such as Germany, the UK or any other European country.
If enough European countries accept the French rating, EASA could decide to adopt a system that is already functional and has been proven as a functioning alternative.
The first candidates should be taking their exams (written and practical skill test) as early as September.


The full text, with further background info about the content of the written exams is here (scroll down for English) (http://www.aopa.fr/IFR-Francais-enfin-visible-_a263.html)

[Cobalt]

other countries in Europe could decide to accept the French rating as an ICAO compliant rating, signing a sort of bilateral agreement with France under which French rated pilots could fly into other European countries such as Germany, the UK or any other European country.

So it is a national rating, valid in France only. With this precedent, I guess the UK can keep the IMC rating as well, valid in the UK only...

[peterh337]

If the French IR is ICAO compliant, then it will be usable worldwide subject to

(a) any restrictions imposed by the State of Registry (France, if the IR is limited to F-regs), or

(b) any restrictions imposed by the owner of the airspace (this category is very rare*, otherwise ICAO would be largely meaningless).

* outside of 3rd world dictatorships like the EU which is proposing to do just that if the operator is based in the EU :)

So, all depends on whether the final French regulation actually limits it to French airspace.

They are talking of limiting it to French issued PPL holders, which de facto means French residents.

With this precedent, I guess the UK can keep the IMC rating as well, valid in the UK only...

Well, yes, France has realised that if they stick a finger up to Brussels, nothing is actually going to happen. The gradual EU meltdown is probably working in our favour... nothing would be worse than a strong central EU government.

[Whopity]

At least the French are doing something positive rather than laying on their backs grovelling whilst EASA tickles their tummies.

The French are using JAR-FCL 1.175(b) as the basis for the new IR(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only. Ironically this is the part that was introduced to facilitate the UK IMC rating.
Like the IMC rating they will be able to train for it for the next two years, and by ensuring that it complies with ICAO Annex 1, there is no justification for restricting it to the State of licence issue. No doubt it will also meet the French criteria for conversion to an EASA IR. In the longer term the issue is which licences can it be placed on. It can't go onto an EASA licence, and National licences will ultimately not be valid for EASA aircraft. The hours flown towards this IR would however qualify towards the MCBIR which differs very little from the unapproved IR that was rendered invalid by the JAA in 1999, and is the most likely outcome of FCL 008.

Are there any signs that anyone is taking this up, reports from Limoges suggest not?

[Piper.Classique]

They are talking of limiting it to French issued PPL holders, which de facto means French residents.Well, more or less. Six months a year and some other ties (a home, even a second home, seems to be enough). I changed to french licence late in 2011, and I wasn't asked for proof of how much time I spent in the country. Be aware though that although you can do this with english competency only, in practice you will need pretty good french to use the licence. And of course to do the course, which will be in french.......

[Whopity]

in practice you will need pretty good french to use the licenceSurely IFR flight is in conjunction with ATC where English Proficiency is a mandatory requirement!

[FlyingLapinou]

Are there any signs that anyone is taking this up, reports from Limoges suggest not?

Good question - I'm surprised there are as many as 2000 PPLs (FFA estimate) interested in this rating.

From what I've seen, there's virtually zero interest amongst pilots at our club. The widely held perception is that it's a national rating, and therefore "no good". There's little or no appreciation of the wider context (EASA) and the negotiations apparently going on in the background. Nor have I seen much communication or information - a couple of articles in "Info Pilote", I think, but that's it, really. Times are hard, of course, and clubs have little interest in nudging members to spend money flying elsewhere.

I reckon virtually all GA flying in France is done in a club context, in club aircraft, and tends to be low and local. Very few pilots undertake flights of any real distance. Consequently, there are very few clubs with IFR-equipped aircraft: there just isn't the demand. I'd imagine you really need to have your own aircraft to get much use out of this rating. And guess what? Most owners fly N-reg machines..

So I can't imagine Limoges is deluged, but I hope I'm wrong, it would be great to see this take off in a big way.

[Piper.Classique]

Surely IFR flight is in conjunction with ATC where English Proficiency is a mandatory requirement! well, as long as you only ever fly IFR and never hop over the hedge to the airfield just down the road, as it were......Not everyone wants to only use major airports. I should I suppose have distinguished more clearly between the licence and the rating. And the course will still be in french :E

[peterh337]

The course being in French will be by far the biggest issue.

I know pilots elsewhere in Europe who I know are very good English speakers, but they mostly still prefer to do the ATPL exams in their own language.

As regards flying within France, once you go away from "international" airports then you are supposed to speak the native language - in any country.

I guess the language issue has been raised in the context of non-Frenchmen doing the French IR. The problem is that you will then have a French issued PPL and (regardless of how you obtained that without living there) you will be stuck with it in your home country, where questions are perhaps more likely to be raised. Presumably one would immediately convert it back?

The really interesting aspect of the French IR is that, IIRC, they will hand it out to anybody with an FAA IR.

If they don't do that, and e.g. require zero training but still make you sit all the exams and pass a flight test (which is what the CBM IR is, currently) the package is far less attractive because the amount of flying which you are going to need to pass a JAA IR test anywhere in N Europe is likely to be way above the minimum 15hrs ICAO IR to JAA IR conversion requirement.

By the time one gets down to the details, and looks at the actual differences, and crucially realises that the existence of the present JAA IR QB (in various online forms) reduces the exam revision by a factor of about 10x, the offer on the table right now is probably as near as dammit to anything we will ever get in the future.

The detail will be interesting...

[achimha]

I don't see much value in the French IFR other than issuing pressure on the EASA. For FAA IR holders it might be a cheap add-on to fly F-reg in France but going this route for current PPL holders doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe there will be an easy path from the French IR to the upcoming EASA FCL.008 but that's a bit of a gamble.

Don't forget that an F-reg airplane in the UK is not a French registered airplane but an EASA registered airplane in the first place and thus subject to EASA IR requirements. Even if their rating is ICAO compliant, you can't use it outside France on F-reg. They would have to introduce a non EASA F-reg variant (similar to micro lights).

[BEagle]

In their NPA 2011-16 respones, both IAOPA and the CAA have proposed an amendment to FCL.600 IR General which would incorporate the provisions of FCL1.175(b).

This would facilitate:

Continuance of the UK IMCR.
National IRs flown in national airspace only, using the national language (e.g. the new French IR).
A solution for sailplane tug pilots needing to operate closer than 1000ft vertically to cloud above 3000ft outside Class G airspace - whereas currently many simply ignore the relevant ICAO VFR rules.

A national-only IR should have quite some appeal in France, but less so for those who want to fly to Germany, Italy or Spain than those who wish to fly from the north to the south of France.

[italianjon]

So, if the French are coming up with a National Only IR, which maybe along similar lines as the current UK IMCr, and both will be National Only...

Now I might actually be using logic to solve a political problem here, but can't we for once hold hands with our French brothers and say let the UK use it's IMCr in France and the UK lets the French use their one in UK...

Surely then also, EASA would have evidence that cross-border Light-IRs work, are functional and could actually get the "hobby" sport into a practical get somewhere transport network in Europe where people would fly more, be more current and therefore safer?

[Whopity]

Beagle
A sensible suggestion. Lets hope some common sense will prevail in the end. However; what is common sense to aviators is not necessarily common sense to Rule Making Mechanics who it seems can't identify one end of their broom from the other!

Mutual acceptance between States would of course add another dimension.