Who gets cheesed off taking fellow pilots up flying? [Archive]

Lew747

22nd Jan 2012, 15:07

Just thought i'd start a lil' thread up after flying today.

Whenever I take a some mates up who also hold licences why do they feel the need to try and take some control of the airplane when you are PIC!? Why must they always get their 2 cents worth in? :ugh:

I bet i'm not the only one to experience this! I don't mind constructive feedback on something that could be improved on but the guys I sometimes go flying with have just as many hours experience as myself. They are the same age as me! Especially when there is another non-flying passenger on board they just love to do a bit of showing off!.

Think i'll leave these guys behind next time! Rant over! :*;)

englishal

22nd Jan 2012, 15:21

Did they need to take over? Are you not as safe as you think? How much experience do you have and do they have?

I used to fly with one bloke who was quite inexperienced, and when we'd come into land I'd tighten my seat belt, stretch my legs and flex my fingers.....Then guaranteed in the last 50 feet (when he started to flare...yea 50'!) I'd have to grab the stick and save the landing and the aeroplane. Either that or I'd end up shouting AIRSPEED AIRSPEED at him as the needle started to sink to the bottom of the dial on approach.

It is called self preservation ! He wanted to fly with me for the experience, I wanted to go home after the flight.

Perhaps your mates are talking about you right now, saying how lucky they are to be alive?

Whiskey Kilo Wanderer

22nd Jan 2012, 15:22

..why do they feel the need to try and take some control of the airplane when you are PIC!? Why must they always get their 2 cents worth in?

But are they right?

I guess you’d briefed before the flight on who does what, look-out and calling traffic, three challenges etc. All good CRM stuff.

Perhaps they’d like to contribute to the cost share, or even pay a share for the pax they are trying to impress…

You could always let them fly it for a bit. Good practice if you end up instructing. It’s easier to pick holes if you are not actually flying the aeroplane at the time.

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Jan 2012, 15:22

I'd always give another pilot that I take flying a chance to fly the aeroplane.

Equally, I'm very clear when it's NOT their turn.

Can't say I've ever had a problem - maybe you need to think about how you agree to do the flying, and how you do the brief?

G

Lew747

22nd Jan 2012, 15:26

The500man

22nd Jan 2012, 15:28

This is just a suggestion; if you are PIC and you don't already have an understanding with your mate that he can do some of the flying on any flight, just say no. You're not just PIC because you are logging the flight as such in your logbook, you need to actively captain your aircraft, and there are real world captaincy skills which you will need to develop through knowledge and experience. However if you're mate is just a dick, then probably best to leave him on the ground like you say!

ShyTorque

22nd Jan 2012, 15:33

PS...I only have 130 hours TT but the lads I am talking about have only recently qualified and around 70 hours.

If anyone tried to fly the aircraft I've signed for, without my permission or agreement, the next landing would be just long enough for them to vacate the aircraft and find their own way home.

An aircraft with two handling pilots on the controls is probably on its way to an accident.

abgd

22nd Jan 2012, 15:34

I would expect to learn something from any pilot with the same amount of experience as myself - or even significantly less (not that there are many). And if I were cost sharing I would expect to take the controls for at least some of the time, unless I'd agreed otherwise beforehand for whatever reason. Obviously I wouldn't fight over it in the cockpit.

Jan Olieslagers

22nd Jan 2012, 15:35

Seems quite natural to me that anyone interested in flying, a pilot most of all, would like to have a say and perhaps try a hand. As GtE says, it is a matter of pre-flight briefing, as formal or informal as you like.

I remember, shortly after getting my license, I flew to the EBDT fly-in with my instructor who had now become a fellow-pilot. For the outbound flight I took the lefthand seat, as I had always done; and when we were to fly back, he suddenly came up with "my time to sit at the left" and I realised how stupid I had been, clinging to old habits without ever questioning them.

Often I find it easy to arrange matters. Myself more interested in navigation and communication than in actual piloting, I will happily let the other chap do the flying, and I've met several who were quite happy to leave the radio and the maps to me.

englishal

22nd Jan 2012, 15:36

Interesting question though...when, as a pilot yourself, would you take control? Would you NEVER take control, or wait until you had stalled and started to spin into the ground on approach, or take control early and walk away?

I am very wary about who I fly with. I would not fly with just anyone, and if I am flying with someone who I know struggles in an area (like landing), I'd opt to take control early.

In my story above, flying with same chap, I didn't take control (but shouted airspeed several times) and we had one of those landing where we fell from the sky. I fully expected the undercarriage to pop up through the wings. The really funny part was as we rolled down the runway (and I tried to separate my vertebrae) he turned to me and said "That was a good landing, I am happy with that". I almost choked.....He had 130 hrs at the time.

I now fly with another buddy of mine, and we jointly own the aeroplane, and I never have / would take control with him, despite his relatively low hrs. I know him and trust him and know he'll get us down ok.

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Jan 2012, 16:27

I think it is genuinely an immaturity issue. I am strict in that I will always do the takeoff and landing. Sure I don't mind sharing the workload but they do like to take control in the air when they feel like it.

I guess everyone likes to think they are better than the next person! The guys i've taken up who are LEARNING will gladly take it all in, sit quietly etc but it seems as soon as they get their licence in their hand we get 'it's alright i've got this covered!' sort of thing. It's like I no longer have a licence!

PS...I only have 130 hours TT but the lads I am talking about have only recently qualified and around 70 hours.

If I were you, I'd either stop flying them, or ALL of you pay an instructor with some commercial flying experience to do an hour or two's CRM instruction in a classroom as a group.

PPL training doesn't cover how to have more than 1 qualified pilot in the cockpit, commercial training does. There are ways to handle it, and a couple of hours CRM session will cover it for all of you.

G

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2012, 16:47

ALL of you pay an instructor with some commercial flying experience to do an hour or two's CRM instruction in a classroom as a group.

I will do it, all it will take is three mins.

"right you pair of :mad: keep your :mad: hands and fingers to yourself unless there has been a positive hand over of controls from the PIC and that includes RT calls. And you, if you sign saying that your PIC :mad: act like one."

Pilot DAR

22nd Jan 2012, 16:53

I bet i'm not the only one to experience this! I don't mind constructive feedback on something that could be improved on but the guys I sometimes go flying with have just as many hours experience as myself. They are the same age as me! Especially when there is another non-flying passenger on board they just love to do a bit of showing off!.

Good thoughts precede this, however, the original description of the situation does not contain enough detail to form a good conclusion;

If the other pilot within reach of the controls was "showing off" to a back seat passenger, that's a problem, and you as PIC should not allow it. 50/50 that passenger is not interested in being shown off to at all, and even if they are, your flight i not the occasion for the other pilot to be doing that. You are responsible for the safety of the flight. If the other pilot buggers up the showing off, you might not be able to fix it, but you're still responsible for it.

If, on the other hand, your 130 skills are genuinely frightening a 70 pilot, one of you needs more instruction, and the other of you is not the person to do it - qualified training is in order.

bear in mind that the aircraft you are flying was provided to you, not the other pilot. Unless that other pilot is an instructor, and the purpose of the flight is instruction, that pilot is a passenger. Just because they are seated where they can reach the controls, does not confer upon them the right to fly, or you to let them.

The only exception to this would be that other pilot taking action to prevent an accident. You should not be allowing them to think that one might happen. If you are doing something unusual, you should tell them, so they remain confident in their safety. That said, few 70 hour pilots would have what it takes to correctly diagnose, then fix another pilot's mistake quickly enough to be effective. So if they succeeded, they probably did not need to in the first place.

When you and/or the other pilot have thousands of hours, the answers to this will be a little different. For now, for you, the pilot flies, and the passengers do as the pilot instructs them.

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2012, 17:08

I really don't think its a case of anyone scaring anyone while in the air. :ok:

Its just young blokes being young blokes and being tits.

Its just the same when everyone gets there driving license and the boys think it is fun to parp the horn and screw around with every control they can reach.

I can just imagine the OP is trying to run his checks and folk are fiddling with the primer and flicking switches on and knocking him out of his train of thought. Up in the air if he hesitates for a moment they will take the RT call for him. May even accept a clearance from ATC that he doesn't want, might not really understand or might not have heard clearly. When he asks what it was they will just reply turn right mate or even worse say "I have it" and start putting control inputs in.

The lot of them need to have a right good kick in the chugs and torn a strip off by someone who is none PC and who will dominate the sods (and that includes the OP)

dublinpilot

22nd Jan 2012, 17:36

If they took control becasue they felt that you had let the aircraft get into a dangerous position, then that is one issue, and one that you need to be honest with yourself about if you are to be safe in the future and progress as a pilot.

However from your description, it seems that you don't think this is the case.

If they just want to have a go, or even think that they are helping, then you need to act like a pilot in command, and take control of the situtation.

If they are paying for half the flight, then they would have a reasonable expectation of some flying time. However the time to sort these things out is before takeoff. If a non-flying passenger is being brought, then these 'negociations' should be done before you even get to the airplane.

If someone attempts to take control outside your agreement, and when you are PIC, and it's not for a safety reason then you need to take positive action. Complaining and sulking isn't enough. A very clear and loud "I have control" and repeated as often as is necessary until they release the controls. You then make it as clear as possible (as soon as you have control back) that that isn't acceptable while you are in command, and that you can discuss it further after landing.

Then you do discuss it further after landing. If the other pilot isn't happy about the situation and isn't prepared to agree to ask permission to control the aircraft in future, then don't ever bring them again; they are an accident waiting to happen.

Two pilots who think they are controlling the airplane is about as dangerous a position as you can get. There is a reason why your instructor would have practiced the "I have control" routine with you when you were training, and it wasn't because they thought it sounded cool!

If you fail to sort this position out you are not doing yourself, nor your pilot and non-pilot passengers any favours. The buck stops with you; you are the pilot in command. Moaning on pprune might help you get some advice, but it's not solving the situation. Have a good (friendly) talk with the pilot before flying with them again.

betterfromabove

22nd Jan 2012, 17:58

Lew

Not sure I'd enjoy flying with these mates of yours, I'm afraid. As several experienced guys on here have said, when flying with other pilots there should be some clear rules. Someone is always PIC and they are IN COMMAND during this period. No-one is allowed to touch controls or make flight decisions unless that PIC has allowed it and this other pilot has the requisite qualifications etc.

If they are not comfortable with this, they really should not fly with you, you either agree PIC per leg or they are fully PIC and you play PAX or safety pilot.

Frankly, these situations between responsible pilots should not occur. Two (or three) pilots in a plane should mean greater safety and awareness, not less, and greater risks/confusion. With the right guys, whatever the experience totals in the cockpit, you can work as a wonderful team. Sometimes it's instinctual, sometimes it requires very clear guidelines (never bad to confirm in any case...)

You learn pretty quick who you are comfortable to fly with and who you are not. This is a skill worth sniffing out pretty early on and sometimes you need to make frank assessments or clear these things up with flying pals.

Ultra long hauler

22nd Jan 2012, 18:03

Lew 747,

After all the expert advice above I am left with 1 issue:

What exactly did your flying-buddies do to interfere?
Were they physically over-riding your pedals and yoke (stick) inputs; or was it mainly bla bla & critisism??

That detail to me is very important; nobody should take over control unless you jeopardize safety, which; let's face it; is still a pretty subjective matter.

In this thread people described the "Airspeed dropping like an anvil"; okay pushing the stick a notch in that instance is self preservation I guess.

But please, did they just interfere in-flight (cruise) or what?? Could you be more precise?

With regards to impressing pax; how would pax know exactly who is making what input?
If the pax decides to have sex with the pilot it was probably because he / she combed his / her hair that morning; the cologne; or because they brushed the old teeth with some sexy paste. Not because of 10 degrees correcting rudder on short final.....unless the correcting pilot brags about this succesfully.

###Ultra Long Hauler###

Lew747

22nd Jan 2012, 19:22

Hey all,

Just to clarify my OWN personal experiences. Never is the aircraft put into a dangerous situation. I would never allow that as I know its my licence on the line and not theirs. It is me who signs that paperwork stating I am PIC.

I don't mind letting a qualified mate fly during the cruise. I am quite easy going and perhaps too soft with letting them take over at non-critical stages of flight. We always have communicated with 'You have control'-'I have control'.

Nor is this a case of who is the better pilot. They are more than comfortable with my flying and I am more then comfortable with their flying. I just don't they realise they are still very inexperienced in the grand scheme of things and if they want to demostrate a manoeuvre or other aspect of flight I would only seek the advice under the watchful eye of an instructor.

This thread was just to see if anyone else had experiences of pilots wanting to get their hands on all the time. Some interesting points made though thank you. I will definately consider taking a more firm approach to when i want to relinquish control to a flyer in the P2 seat.

I did fly with a mate a few months ago and on landing I bounced the aircraft several times and it was perhaps one of the worst landings in my flying career to date. Because he was there and witnessed it he now thinks i'm useless at landing and always winds me up about the event. I guess you make one mistake and never hear the end of it!? And as mentioned above my englishhal...they then assume you are dangerous or lacking confidence just through a one-off!

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Jan 2012, 19:24

I will do it, all it will take is three mins.

"right you pair of :mad: keep your :mad: hands and fingers to yourself unless there has been a positive hand over of controls from the PIC and that includes RT calls. And you, if you sign saying that your PIC :mad: act like one."

Which works fine for hairy-@rsed old bu66ers like you and me Jock, but I think perhaps a group of young men with a few authority-gradient issues need a little more support, most likely as a group.

G

Lew747

22nd Jan 2012, 19:29

Its just the same when everyone gets there driving license and the boys think it is fun to parp the horn and screw around with every control they can reach.

I can totally relate this to flying. We are all young and think we know it all!

It would interesting for myself to see how young fliers straight from the airline FTO's get along flying together after doing an MCC and having some basic grasp of CRM- Compared to the likes of myself and my fellow chums who have just the basic PPL licence...

mad_jock

22nd Jan 2012, 19:38

I don't know it work fine for me when I was that age when I had been caught doing something stupid by the QSMI or one of his minions.

At least the lads won't have extra dutys or running up a hill backwards with a SLR being held at arms length.

You have actually got it on one, the issues are authority-gradient issues. How you cure that I don't really know in this day and age. I really don't think that a group hug and mutial respect session does any good whats so ever.

And they are exactly the same from what I have seen of groups of them turning up to stay current.

I am sure Genghis can supply storys of UAS students requiring a dressing down after some stupidity or other. I would be very suprised if that included a group hug.

And don't worry about the landing standard piss taking. I have a mate (Q400 skipper)that did a few choice ones 5 years ago and we still take the piss because we know he will always bite. We all do the occasional "bad" one as you get more experence they become less common.

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Jan 2012, 19:49

I am sure Genghis can supply storys of UAS students requiring a dressing down after some stupidity or other. I would be very suprised if that included a group hug.

Group hug, no.

Group bollocking, yes.

Modern CRM tends towards mutual hugging and bollocking according to circumstance however - with a "grown up" acting to facilitate that.

But you knew that :E

G

airpolice

22nd Jan 2012, 19:52

I have boxed this off from day one. When I am PIC then nobody else touches the controls. I don't instruct, I just fly the aircraft. Passengers mostly just sit there and passenge!

Nobody "gets a clutch" when I am in the LHS and my name is in the tech log.

I do allow "aware" Passengers, subject to pre flight briefing, to set squawks or frequencies, even to change things on the GPS, but nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.

BackPacker

22nd Jan 2012, 21:06

I do allow "aware" Passengers, subject to pre flight briefing, to set squawks or frequencies, even to change things on the GPS, but nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.

Actually I find it easier to let the passengers fly the aircraft once at cruise altitude and properly trimmed. I'll do the squawks and the GPS myself, thanks. There's much more to screw up there. Besides, I can just casually glance outside and know the aircraft is right way up, but I have to follow their actions on the transponder and GPS pretty intimately if I let them do it. Guess which of those two actions lets me look outside the most? (Hint: Given that the transponder needs to be set in any case, if I do it myself I can do it in half the time it takes a non-pilot passenger to do it.)

I regularly fly with chronically/terminally ill & mentally/physically disabled kids aged 6-16 for a Dutch charity - between 15 and 20 flights each year. Handicapped, disabled, mentally challenged as they are, most are very, very good at keeping the aircraft straight and level, and even in making shallow turns. It just comes intuitively to them. Obviously I'm the one doing the lookout, radio, navigation, and I've got my feet on the rudder pedals, my left hand secretly on the throttle (DR400 has two, so they don't notice when I'm using the other one) and the stick between my thighs, so there's not a lot that they can do wrong. But I rarely have to take control back from them, until it's time to land.

Due to their handicap these kids typically have a very low self esteem. Steering a light aircraft, when the largest vehicle they may ever have controlled is their bicycle in the best case, their own wheelchair in the worst case, is an enormous mental boost for them.

Now if I can trust a mentally challenged kid to touch the controls of my aircraft, surely you should be able to let a normal adult passenger do a spot of hand flying the aircraft?

(Obviously with mentally challenged kids briefing them beforehand about this is extra challenging, and when you want to take control back, there might be a few additional or special instructions. "Now put your hands on your knees again", for instance. And the responsible adult who sits behind this kid also gets a short but very firm briefing from me, as I may require them, in the ultimate case, to knock the kid unconscious if flight safety is really threatened. And over the years I have added a lot more things to my bag of tricks like that.)

SlipSlider

22nd Jan 2012, 21:38

... nobody touches the flying controls while I still can.

airpolice, as captain of the aircraft that's your prerogative, of course.

Personally I enjoy seeing the look on a non-flying passengers face in the back seat of my tandem tailwheeler (front seat has a strategically placed mirror) when they "actually fly a plane".

I also enjoy seeing the look on the face of a PPL accustomed to PA28/38/C152 etc when they apply aileron without rudder, the wing goes one way and the nose swings the other way ...

And I certainly enjoyed it when a local pilot/owner let me handle his aircraft from the back seat .... my first time in a Chipmunk since I was a CCF cadet in the mid60s.

Experiences it would be a shame to miss.

Fuji Abound

22nd Jan 2012, 21:40

Take over if you are in imminent danger - and I mean really in imminent danger - if not keep your hands and comments to yourself,

Always offer the other pilot the chance to fly - unless you are not comfortable doing so - you are in charge and you need to know you (or the other pilot) can deal with whatever arises,

Remember unless the other pilot has quite a few right hour seats (actually flying) things will seem strange to him at first - he may well be an old hand at landings, but the first landing from the right seat may be an interesting experience.

Most pilots think they are better than they are. Weigh up your friend and let him weigh up you but dont be taken in by his hours or exeperience any more than yours - however if you know he has 400 or 500 plus hours to his credit he might just be worth listening to - most with, will not be reaching in a hurry for the controls without some good reason. Do remember you can always fall out later when you get back. You dont need to ask him to share a flight with you next time any more than he need join you. :)

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Jan 2012, 21:53

A vital point however, if allowing anybody else to handle the main flight controls.

Some clear variation on "I have control" / "You have control". If you are letting them handle the controls - do so consciously and deliberately and they should accept that. If you take control back, the same applies.

Two people handling the controls at once is seldom a recipe for happiness, except in very particular circumstances. A passenger handling the yoke only whilst the pilot does everything else is one such circumstance, a student or instructor following through is another.

Whatever circumstance however, absolute clarity about who is doing what (as well as who is in charge) is vital.

G

englishal

22nd Jan 2012, 22:13

I let kids fly too....Recently kids with cancer and also the Air Scouts. It is great to see the look on their face when they are piloting an aeroplane....especially the ones who will be dead in a few weeks. Very sad actually.....But I keep my feet on the pedals, tell them not to yank on the yoke and am ready to take control in an instant.

To be honest, most of them have been pretty good.

Me and my buddy were like the OP once upon a time, almost ended in tears during a "touch and go" with two girls in the back (and it was only pure luck we didn't leave the runway, but that is a story for another time......!). 10 years on I know that I knew nothing back then ! :}

Pilot DAR

22nd Jan 2012, 22:33

will not be reaching in a hurry for the controls without some good reason

There's the key. When flying with another pilot, it is likely that that pilot's inclination to take control is in inverse proportion to his/her experience. The pilot whom the "new" pilot will most likely learn from, is probably the least likely to force the lesson upon the new pilot, he/she will probably just let the flight happen.

ShyTorque

22nd Jan 2012, 22:44

Which works fine for hairy-@rsed old bu66ers like you and me Jock, but I think perhaps a group of young men with a few authority-gradient issues need a little more support, most likely as a group.

The recently published report on the Catterick Puma crash makes some very interesting reading in that respect. A flat cockpit gradient, peer pressure and "risky shift" were all very much apparent on that tragic occasion.

I learned my lesson about respecting the cockpit gradient some thirty years ago, when I was on my first tour, in an RAF Puma helicopter. We were hover-taxying across the airfield one night when the windscreens began misting up. I reached up and switched on the windscreen heaters without informing or asking the captain (the sadly missed but infamous George Blackie, Glaswegian QHI), who was handling pilot at the time. He told me if I ever touched a switch on "his" top switch panel again, without asking, he would break my ****ing fingers off and shove them where the sun don't shine.

He was right, I was wrong. Correct CRM is of paramount importance when two pilots fly together.

Cusco

22nd Jan 2012, 22:46

Its just young blokes being young blokes and being tits.

Its just the same when everyone gets there driving license and the boys think it is fun to parp the horn and screw around with every control they can reach.

The Deranged Caledonian speaketh the truth.

I'm very old and I fly almost exclusively with very old pilots like myself:

Indeed I've flown some very long distances in far off countries with oldies like myself.

And I've never ever suffered the interference that the OP talks about.

At the beginning of the leg it's " right: you fly this leg and I'll fly after lunch"

How simple a notion can that be to adopt if you behave with a modicum of maturity.?

Cusco