Instructing in a group owned aircraft

[easy307]

Is it possible to provide ab-initio training using a group owned aircraft ?

I obtained my FI(R) 2 years ago.
I have done about 60 hours instructing:- ppl holder friends and ex 4a/b to friends/family.
I am never going to be able to obtain / commit to a flying school job due to work commitments. I would love to remove my restriction, but will need 25 solo signoffs.
I have several friends who would like to obtain a ppl, and I have a share in a suitable training aircraft. Can I use this plane for abinitio if I obtain the correct insurance?
Would the local flying club oversee my instruction if paid for their services?
Or are they likely to tell me to get lost.
I wouldn't be poaching business as the students wouldn't want to obtain their PPLs without my involvement.

[RTN11]

see here

http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/272604-instructing-group-owned-aircraft.html

Try approaching the flying school yourself and say you would like their supervision and aircraft to teach your own students on a freelance/self employed basis. As long as the flying school are paid for their aircraft hire and supervising instructor's time, there shouldn't be an issue. This is quite common for instructors teaching IMC or aerobatics.

[easy307]

Thanks RTN,
The link is pretty old (2007). However, I found this AIC which implies it would be ok to instuct ab-initio in a group owned plane. Does everyone agree?

AIC: W 001/2011
27-JAN-2011
Administration
"2.1 Since the adoption of Regulation (EC) No. 2042/2003, EASA aircraft have been subject to European Continuing Airworthiness
Regulations (commonly known as Part M). Operation under Part M allows private aircraft to be used for remunerated activity, provided that
it is not a commercial air transport operation or an operation that the State requires to be issued with a certificate.
2.2 Therefore, individuals are permitted to pay an instructor for training in their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned EASA aircraft."

So if possible to instruct in my own jointly owned plane, would a flying club be likely to supervise my training?
The cost to my friends would be the usual group hourly rate and whatever supervising fee the local flying club would deem appropriate (my instruction would be free).
Has this sort of thing been done before?

[Duchess_Driver]

Just a quick thought....but what do the other group members feel about your proposal?

[BEagle]

easy307, you need to check the restrictions associated with your FI rating!

Restricted Privileges

Until the holder of a FI(A) rating has completed at least 100
hours flight instruction and, in addition, has supervised at
least 25 student solo flights, the privileges of the rating
are restricted.

The restriction will be removed from the rating when
the above requirements have been met and on the
recommendation of the supervising FI(A) (Please refer to
Section H1.4 – Removal of Supervisory Restriction).

Restrictions: The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose:

a. Flight instruction for the issue of the JAR-FCL
PPL(A) or those parts of a CPL(A) or ATPL(A)
integrated course at PPL(A) level. Class and Type
ratings for single engine aeroplanes, excluding
approval of first solo flights by day or by night and
first solo navigation flights by day or by night; and

b. Night flying instruction, provided a night qualification
or rating is held, the ability to instruct at night has
been demonstrated to a FI(A) authorised to conduct
FI(A) training in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.330(f)
and the night currency requirement of JAR-FCL
1.026 is satisfied.

Also, the AIC to which you refer concerns an aircraft owned by the student, not the instructor!

[easy307]

Duchess Driver - Pleased that utilisation will go up, and hopefully flying will become cheaper for everyone. I guess there might be concern regarding increased wear and tear eg heavy landings, PFLs, lots of circuits.

[easy307]

Beagle -

"The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose:

a. Flight instruction for the issue of the JAR-FCL
PPL(A)"

This is what I am talking about. Carrying out the above with supervision from the local flying club in my own jointly owned plane.
Have I missed your point ?

[easy307]

"Also, the AIC to which you refer concerns an aircraft owned by the student, not the instructor! "

Oh, I think that would scupper me.
What if I got the student to buy a share? (they are pretty cheap)

[S-Works]

What on earth are you thinking!

Go fly for a school, get the experience, get unrestricted and then start your own RTF.

Never seen such a hair brained scheme in my life. The very fact that you are seeking advice on an Internet forum about thus shows you don't have the experience to be doing it.

[easy307]

"Go fly for a school, get the experience, get unrestricted and then start your own RTF."

I want to do the same thing as above, but fly my plane and pay the flying club to supervise me.

[Aware]

I would agree with Bose - x gain experience, it s tough working for a group without appropriate supervision. I have just been through process of looking into teaching on group ac. The AIC mentioned earlier states no training for initial rating in privately owned ac. Revalidation is fine, but being a FIR its not clever to do this as you need back up and experience, Ive been instructing 10 years and I still feel the need for a CFI around for support guidance and when difficult situations arise. Instructing has many pitfalls, and it is a huge responsibility teaching people to fly , 60 hours is not enough experience.

If you've got time to teach in group ac, you will find time to teach at your local school, where an experienced CFI can assist you, after you,ve built experience, certainly go and have a go at setting up your own RTF.

Enjoy your instructing, I work in an unrelated biz Monday to Thursday, and instruct Fridays it works well, and just found a new school to work for having had to leave a school that closed so there is work out there.

[easy307]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
I will give up on my idea.

[easy307]

"The AIC mentioned earlier states no training for initial rating in privately owned ac"

Just a follow up, I can't see anything in the AIC to stop ab initio in a jointly owned aircraft.


http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-288D3167BF0DC7676963FA7998052F54/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIC/W/001-2011/EG_Circ_2011_W_001_en_2011-01-27.pdf

NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=view&id=765&Itemid=316.html)

Point 4 relates to non-EASA aircraft only:-
"Jointly-owned non-EASA aircraft
Note: Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The
intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as
short field landings), become familiar with a new type etc."

[Genghis the Engineer]

Here's a model that can work - I know it can work, because I'm in the middle of such a scheme.

Syndicate an aeroplane (with a suitable CofA permitting instruction) but bedded within a friendly flying club.

Rules work along these lines (for us):

- All joint owners have to be members of the club, meeting club rules
- Instruction on the aeroplane is under supervision of the club/CFI
- When the owners aren't flying the aeroplane, it's leased to the club for the club's use at their rates
- When the owners want instruction, they just pay syndicate flying rates, then the club's "instruction in own aircraft" rates - which saves them about £40/hr.
- By "gentleman's agreement" instructors with shares in the aeroplane get first dibs on instruction in it, and certainly have the ability to bring our own students into the club on our aeroplane.

The particular club I belong to has three aeroplanes (two four seaters and a two seater) run in this manner. The one I have a share in has two instructors amongst the owners - myself (a CRI, so I tend to do conversion/refresher training) and a much more experienced instructor (an FI/IRI so he tends to do PPLs and IMCs).

It works really well, saves a lot of money for the owners, gives quite a nice route for inexperienced instructors like me to get into the system, and provides good oversight by an experienced club CFI.

G

[S-Works]

Thats a pretty good system that you describe there Ghenghis. I assume the aircraft is the equivalent of the old public transport regarding maintanance and engine life in order to be leased into the club?

The OP is of course going to have the problem of finding a club as enlightened as yours that will allow effectively a competitor to the club and its instructors under the blanket of the clubs approval. I would not let you do what you describe under our approvals as I could not be assured that you would meet our standarisation and quality requirements but as overseeing CFI I would still be responsible for you. You will find a lot more schools that will give you the same answer. As they will basically see you trying to ride on the back of their approvals without having done the legwork.

To the OP, don't underestimate the responsibility and difficulty in teaching ab-initio as an inexperienced instructor. It is probably one of the most challenging things that you will encounter as an Instructor and you will benefit greatly from the oversight of an experienced CFI and being around other more experienced Instructors.

AS I said earlier, get the experience on the staff of a school and get the restriction removed then spread your wings. Once you are unrestricted you will be in a position to start your own RTF and do what you want.

[mrmum]

Hi Easy,
Although some of the above replies a worded a little harshly, they are generally good advice and I'm sure the posters are intending to be helpful.

Having read the AIC, White 1/2011, to answer your question in post #3, it would appear that a person can pay an instructor to be trained in an EASA aircraft. But that's not at all the same thing as it being a good idea for you to undertake such a venture.
What type is the group aircraft you're considering using? Is it something common that flying schools will have experience with?
Also, as BEagle pointed out earlier, the student must own a share, not you.
Have you looked into the costs of changing the insurance from "group" to "training" use and what that may cost?

So, while it all seems to be theoretically possible, as RTN11 advised, by far the simpler and more sensible way, is to approach a school, bring your own students, but use their aircraft/approvals/supervision, especially given your experience.
If you walked into my school, I would seriously try and convince you to use our aircraft. However, if you were really insistent on trying to use yours, I'd look into it and consider it, maybe. So, by all means go out and approach a few flying schools locally and see what happens, you're no worse off for asking.
I'd be really surprised if you couldn't find somewhere to do this for you, one way or another. Where you will have some difficulty, is I think getting back into teaching the whole syllabus, 2 years after your course, with only a few hours of "check flights and TLs" effectively. You need to find somewhere with a good and willing supervising FI, they will of course also have to fly with your students to authorise first solo etc.

Further to your accumulated 60 hours of "instructing". I'm not sure that you can legally be doing that, as LASORS states (my red/bold) a FI(R) cannot do anything unless they are under the supervision of an approved FI.
Restricted Privileges
Until the holder of a FI(A) rating has completed at least 100
hours flight instruction and, in addition, has supervised at
least 25 student solo flights, the privileges of the rating
are restricted.
The restriction will be removed from the rating when
the above requirements have been met and on the
recommendation of the supervising FI(A) (Please refer to
Section H1.4 – Removal of Supervisory Restriction).
Restrictions: The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose
a. Flight instruction for the issue of the JAR-FCL
PPL(A) or those parts of a CPL(A) or ATPL(A)
integrated course at PPL(A) level. Class and Type
ratings for single engine aeroplanes, excluding
approval of first solo flights by day or by night and
first solo navigation flights by day or by night; and
b. Night flying instruction, provided a night qualification
or rating is held, the ability to instruct at night has
been demonstrated to a FI(A) authorised to conduct
FI(A) training in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.330(f)
and the night currency requirement of JAR-FCL
1.026 is satisfied

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thats a pretty good system that you describe there Ghenghis. I assume the aircraft is the equivalent of the old public transport regarding maintanance and engine life in order to be leased into the club?

That is correct.

The OP is of course going to have the problem of finding a club as enlightened as yours that will allow effectively a competitor to the club and its instructors under the blanket of the clubs approval. I would not let you do what you describe under our approvals as I could not be assured that you would meet our standarisation and quality requirements but as overseeing CFI I would still be responsible for you. You will find a lot more schools that will give you the same answer. As they will basically see you trying to ride on the back of their approvals without having done the legwork.

When I or the other instructor in the syndicate teach on our aeroplane, we're under supervision of the CFI, working to his standards, using his training records, and he flew with and approved us before we were allowed to teach on it; and the club charges something for all this - you get the picture.

And everybody agrees to work to the club FOB as if they were normal renters. The only two real differences for syndicate members are (a) much cheaper flying, and (b) no real restrictions on how much or little we fly it in any booking (apart from a maximum half day per weekend per member limit, unless agreed by the syndicate and club, which is to ensure some revenue at weekends for the flying school).

It works, and I doubt you'd be uncomfortable with it Bose.

Yes, it is a very enlightened club and I enjoy being part of it. It's small, but friendly and competent.

G

[S-Works]

I have done about 60 hours instructing:- ppl holder friends and ex 4a/b to friends/family.

Who was your supervising FI and RTF/FTO?

Maybe they would be the person to approach for advice.

[easy307]

Having read all the posts, I really have decided to give up on my idea.
Although it is nice to hear of a workable solution!

Regarding this:-
Restrictions: The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose

I have never been sure how an "FI(A) approved for this purpose " is defined ?
There is a very experienced instructor in our group who has been "supervising" me. He is however not affiliated with any training facility.

The plane is already being used for IMC courses using flying club instructors for other group members.

[madlandrover]

If he isn't nominated by an RF or FTO to supervise instructors, then he is not approved for that purpose - and ought to know that really.

[easy307]

In which case I have done zero hours instructing.
Perhaps I should have done the CRI course instead !

[Genghis the Engineer]

The plane is already being used for IMC courses using flying club instructors for other group members.
Sounds like perhaps you should talk to that club CFI and suggest a model along the line I described above.

G

[S-Works]

If you have been teaching unsupervised you need to be concerned. Those hours are not loggable by you and more importantly not by your students. It sounds like you have been doing trial lessons amongst a number of things? For a trial lesson to be legal it has to be toward the issue of a licence even if the student never takes up the test of the course. The restriction on your FI requires you to be supervised by an approved person.

It the risk of being harsh, you really should know all of this stuff.

A restricted FI is pretty much a waste of time for operating outside an RTF/FTO. The rules will have been made clear when you were trained.

I think you may have made a bit of a rod for your back here...

[mrmum]

I have done about 60 hours instructing:- ppl holder friends and ex 4a/b to friends/family.
I don't really think there's much to worry about here is there? Going flying with friends and family, in your syndicate aircraft, with I guess no money changing hands, then showing them effects of controls, but they don't go any further or log it for licence issue is no more than all PPLs do as soon as they've got their licence. It is in essence no more than a private flight.
As to instructing PPL holding friends, again if they didn't pay for the instruction (within your group) and they were entitled to be pilot in command anyway, there's no problem. The only issue may be if you did the hour with an instructor, for class rating revalidation by experience, you'd need to be supervised by an approved FI for that. However, it's all done now and does anyone think the revalidating examiner or CAA really dig that deep into the exact circumstances of the instructor who signed the dual flight.

[easy307]

Thanks Mrmum,
Very kind words.
You are correct in your assumptions.
Live and learn.

[Genghis the Engineer]

This is a really interesting thread in the context of the several people (both here and in real life) who have quite strongly queried why I "only" did the CRI qualification rather than a full FI(R) course !

G

[S-Works]

Absolutely Ghenghis. The CRI often gets scorn poured on it by 'proper' FIs when in fact for someone operating outside of ab-initio school training it is an immensely useful and practical rating.

Having come through the CRI SE/ME and IRI before FI I can say that everything I do these days can pretty much be covered by the CRI privileges including most examine tasks.

There are no supervision restrictions on the CRI for a start and the bulk of training work you encounter outside of a school is refresher, differences and 2 year flights which are all ably handled by thr CRI.

The only reason I did mine was for a job as Head of Training that on reality does did not require it either!

[Whopity]

I have never been sure how an "FI(A) approved for this purpose " is defined ? SRG2188 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG2188webenabled2.pdf) Section 12

[easy307]

"REGISTRATION TO CONDUCT TRAINING FOR A PRIVATE
PILOT LICENCE APPLICATION/CONFIRMATION/VARIATION/
CANCELLATION

SECTION 12: INSTRUCTING STAFF
3. Those FIs who will supervise FI(R) or AFIs must be specifically nominated."

Thanks for the reference.

So, is it saying " when registering to conduct training for a PPL, you must list the supervisors of your FI(R)s on the form" ?

There must be a better official definition.

[S-Works]

Yes, that is what it is saying. When you register as a facility, you register the staff and the aircraft. You nominate supervising FI's who are responsible for the restricted FI's. So unless you are on an RTF and have a nominated supervising FI there is actually very little you can do with your FI(R).

[xrayalpha]

Gosh!

You really would be better instructing on a C42 or Eurostar - ie microlights!

(now ducks head)

ps. If an aircraft is owned by a ltd company - as presumably all the aircraft leased out, for example, by RBS until they sold that arm recently - then how does the "no more than 20 owners" etc rule apply. I am sure that, apart from the UK taxpayer, there are more than 19 other RBS shareholders. And there are more than 20 UK taxpayers.

ie. Can you have one ltd co as an owner and more than 20 shareholders.

[Genghis the Engineer]

ps. If an aircraft is owned by a ltd company - as presumably all the aircraft leased out, for example, by RBS until they sold that arm recently - then how does the "no more than 20 owners" etc rule apply. I am sure that, apart from the UK taxpayer, there are more than 19 other RBS shareholders. And there are more than 20 UK taxpayers.

If an aeroplane is on a Public Transport standard CofA and operated within either a FTO or under an AOC, the syndication rules become pretty much irrelevant because the highest standard of safety is seen to be met and no concessions are needed.

G