Accident nr Lake Vyrnwy Hotel, Wales

[helihub]

From BBC
BBC News - Helicopter crash near Lake Vyrnwy in Powys (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-wales-mid-wales-16582421)

A man and a woman are being treated in hospital after a helicopter crash near Lake Vyrnwy in Powys.

Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service say they were called to the incident, involving a private helicopter, at Llanwddyn at 13.15 GMT.

Police said the helicopter came down near a hill, but it is thought the two occupants were not seriously hurt.

The air ambulance has been called and firefighters are in the process of clearing up at the scene.

It is understood the two people on board the helicopter had been visiting the area for the day and were attempting to land on the Lake Vyrnwy Hotel`s designated helicopter pad.

The Air Accidents Investigations Branch will be looking into the cause of the crash.

[Lewycasino]

Photograph of Aircraft G-FIRS (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-FIRS&imgname=G-FIRS003&imgtype=jpg)

[tegwin]

If anyone has had the chance to land at Vyrnwy hotel you will realise how lucky these folks were!

Steep hill on the one side and a drop into the lake on the other.... Have often wondered what would happen if silence occured whilst approaching/departing that site.

Worth it though for the burgers and the view :ok:

[NazgulAir]

"wales" is not an area one associates with long runways and easy approaches... I wanted to go to Machynlleth once, it was either Welshpool or Caernarfon or nothing.

Good the occupants got away with minor injuries only.

[FSXPilot]

keep going at this rate and we may eradicate R22s.

[helihub]

and photo of G-FIRS now at Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/RichardJ0nes/status/158940679286964224/photo/1)

[Art of flight]

Glad to hear they're not seriously injured. My whole 6 and a half hours R22 taught me much respect for those that have to fly them.

[SilsoeSid]

Not quite sure if it quite deserves a double thumbs up :=

http://images.nwnmedia.co.uk/assets/article_main/2012/01/WEB_HELICOPTER.jpg

[FSXPilot]

Do you think he is giving the thumbs up for being alive or for destroying an R22? Either way genius photo.

[toptobottom]

FSX - not sure what's so 'genius' about the photo :=

I was flying at a private site not far from Vyrnwy at about the same time. Excellent viz, light winds. Looks like they were lucky to walk away.

[Epiphany]

Lewycasino - I wonder if the same 5 year old in your picture was flying it?

[Andy Mayes]

FSX - not sure what's so 'genius' about the photo

Look at the photo and you'll see someone smiling and with both 'thumbs up', this is what FSXPilot refers to.

[topendtorque]

A most unusual fire profile, I wonder what the investigators may say about that?

Only ever seen it once before, don't remember whether the insurers paid out on it or not.:=

[helihub]

Short video on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16587916) with no sound suggests this R22 landed on a 20 degree upslope (approx).

[stringfellow]

Well that looks like one hell of a slope!! Topendtorque what do you consider unusual about the burn sequence?? Is it that the passenger side tank looks untouched? I have g info'd it and its a beta so two tanks if anyone suspected it was a hp.

[topendtorque]

I'll let my question run through to the keeper for a while.

[FSXPilot]

Sarcasm is obviously lost on you. If I'd left a mess like that the last thing I would be doing is posing beside it with my thumbs up.

[Thomas coupling]

Good news no-one hurt, but even better news that another Robinson bites the dust. Their ratings in the accident statistics database will be off the scale after 2012 has been plotted. Is it 6 or 7 that have stoofed this month so far?
The Lada's of the helo world have caused more upset than the worth of it. Good riddance. The government should ban them like they did the cars. :E

Topendorque, what;s with the fire signature then? Is that snow or foam?

[topendtorque]

Topendorque, what;s with the fire signature then? Is that snow or foam?


don't know could have peed on it for all I know or waited a bit longer, it might have gone out by itself, splendid fire-wall I see. I wonder if the firewall is bent, if not it can be rebuilt.
I think drumpump is on to it.

oh and I should have added just to make your day, another one rolled up at caloundra Qld. very recently. dynamic roll over on a TIF I was told, work that one out?
tet

[toptobottom]

"The government should ban them like they [sic] did the cars" :bored:

[RMK]

An accident has happened at a location where others on here may be landing in the future. Without the guesswork pertaining to this specific crash, could someone please give some pointers/warnings/info on what to be aware of when landing at this or similar site.

When we could actually get some useful information, this always turns into the usual PPrune thread of “Why a Sikorsky S76 is better than a R44/R22”.

Gents it gets old. Trust me every PPL on here wishes they had an Agusta 109 for their use. Pretty much 95% of my landings are at differing hotel landing pads. I (and I’m certain others) would like to learn something from the incident by the more experienced on here.

[dash7]

I believe they got into difficulty whilst trying to land at the hotel, they then dumped the 22 in a field some distance from the hotel landing area.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

"dumped in a field " not knocking you but that seems unlikely I have been into this site on dozens of occasional's and don't remember there being any suitable nearby fields ?.

The hotel helipad has a number of challenges such as the big mountain behind and the lake in front of it, I have always used the old pump house on the edge of the lake as a reference point making an approach from there which gives you enough space and time to get it right.It can be a very difficult approach if it is windy.

cbs

[uniformkilo]

@RMK: great question.

I always suggest getting some confined area training from an instructor who has real-world experience of private sites before trying anything new.

As well as revising the "Confined Area Landings" exercise from the syllabus, it's an opportunity to go into more detail about the kind of judgements and assessments you need to make once you've located the site but before attempting a landing. eg: Whether to attempt a landing at all, where to divert to if you don't fancy what you see, where your go-around point should be on the approach and so on.

The R22 has plenty of power and control while it has translational lift. You're at your most vulnerable once the translational lift has gone. So you need to assess the site to see if it will allow you to be in ground effect by the time that happens. The smaller the site the more dangerous it is in an R22, because you may feel compelled to come in very slowly, which can lead to a loss of translational lift while you're still out of ground effect. That is the moment where you can start to run out of options. The site at Vyrnwy is a classic for this; the ground slopes up to it on the approach (so denying you ground effect) the site itself is tiny, and there's a slope up beyond it, so you can feel compelled to approach very slowly.

Also, plan ahead to give yourself the best possible power margin on arrival overhead the site. One of the main determining factors of power margin in an R22 is how much fuel you have on board. You want the lightest fuel load that is consistent with still having enough endurance safely to get to your next (preferably close by) fuel stop. So your fuel calculation at your previous refuel needs to take all this into account. This judgement also applies to the weight of your baggage.

And when planning a landing at a private site, always give yourself a get-out clause: "I'll give it a go, but I can't promise anything as it may look very different from up there". Allow yourself the option to land in a larger more accessible field at the bottom of the valley and walk, or to drop off your passenger in the field next to the private site to unload the helicopter before manoeuvring over the hedge to the pad itself, or even just turn round and go home with your helicopter, your loved one, and your pride intact.

[Peter-RB]

The slope is possibly no more than 15degs with a min of 12Degs

Taking the well fitted fencing posts above the burnt wreck will be as near as damit to 90Degs, the best is 12Degs with the worst looking about 15Degs, The main Rotor Shaft is sloping backward sand gives a eyeline that looks greater, but using the skids as the angle pointer comes up with that sort of Degree.

PeterR-B

Lancashire

carry on with lunch now!

[Aucky]

@Uniform Kilo - Sound advice :ok:

[Hairyplane]

Pleased indeed that nobody was seriously hurt.

This is a cracking destination. I have taken the R44 in on a number of occasions, the last only a couple of months back for the best ever Ham, egg and Chips in their inexpensive Bistro/zero landing fee - all with the stunning backdrop of the Lake.

Its a challenging site - the pad is not very big and is on the side of a steep hill above the hotel.

Approach is from over the Lake towards the hill and invariably requires an OOGE hover before the pad. Throw in a tailwind or downdraught depending on the wind direction and it can be hard work.

Its important to choose the right day and ensure you have adequate performance.

HP

[cyclic35]

I (and I’m certain others) would like to learn something from the incident by the more experienced on here.

This appears to be a challenging site and needed analysis.

You're at your most vulnerable once the translational lift has gone.
Conducting checks to determine what power margins are available just before final approach would be a nice touch.

Very relieved to read there were no serious injuries.

[cyclic35]

@Uniform Kilo - Sound advice http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Seconded.:D

[brantlyb2b]

Landed here a few years ago while taking my wife away for Valantines in our helicopter.Did several traffic patterns before commiting and still nearly dropped it from about 15 ft.The prevailing wind funnels up the Lake towards you then suddenly drops without warning.You approach over 30 foot conifers then are forced to perform a really steep approach very scary.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.
I even had the hotel remove a digger from my escape route on departure,to try and make it as safe as possible.I have also written about this site on as many forums as possible,no matter what you fly and how much grunt you have in hand be careful at this one.

[MightyGem]

requires an OOGE hover before the pad
Delving back into the dim and distant past, when I did a mountain flying course with the Swiss Air Force, in a single engine Alouette, it was impressed on me again and again, NOT to come to the hover short of a landing site with nothing but a 1000' drop on the undershoot, but to keep going "forward and down" to basically a zero speed run on.

[powerlimited]

Approach is from over the Lake towards the hill and invariably requires an OOGE hover before the pad. Throw in a tailwind or downdraught depending on the wind direction and it can be hard work.

Maybe it shouldn't be hard work, if you have to come in downwind to a HOGE then maybe the conditions are not suitable to make an approach? :confused:

You approach over 30 foot conifers then are forced to perform a really steep approach very scary.

Who was forcing you? I'm not sure "forced landings" are normally performed to such locations, maybe a large open field away from conifers and buildings would be more appropriate? If its "scary" then maybe this is telling you its probably not the best idea?

I personally don't know the landing site, however judging by the comments above it is clear that some people shouldn't be flying in there. Just because somewhere advertises a "helipad" doesn't imply it is suitable for use as an area for landing certain types.

[John R81]

Again someone shows that there is always someone looking for an opportunity to take a pedantic approach to the language of another and pen something in the most unhelpful manner.

There are valid points raised in the last post but I am put-off looking for them by the tone of the response.

Am I alone in wishing that we could try to be supportive and encouraging to each other in how we post?

:(

Uniformkilo - top man! a great example of passing on helpful advice. Thank you!:D

[brantlyb2b]

This response is the reason I dont post on this site and wont bother again,I was trying to be helpful to anyone landing there in the future.
To answer your question the wind was forcing my decison to land from that direction ,but being someone of your eminence I pressumed you might know that.That is one of the limited options for this site but you already knew that ,oh no silly me you have never even been their.

[flyingscotty]

I would make the comment of confined areas that if you have not experienced a location with an instructor, then to ask for the advice of one would help, or maybe practise some locations with an instructor if you are out of practise.

I am not being critical of anyone here, and it is bloody easy to be the Monday morning defender, but everyone makes mistakes even high time pilots, just a thought, how many non incident landings have been made at this location in the last year or so?

[SilsoeSid]

brantlyb2b, to me your post says it all.

Landed here a few years ago while taking my wife away for Valantines in our helicopter. Did several traffic patterns before commiting and still nearly dropped it from about 15 ft.The prevailing wind funnels up the Lake towards you then suddenly drops without warning.You approach over 30 foot conifers then are forced to perform a really steep approach very scary.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.


Isn't this a classic... waiting to happen?

Loss of face with the missus if you decided it was too bad, and had to forgo the valentines day out! Pressonitis
'Forced to perform'... surely we shouldn't be forced into any situation! Situation awareness
If it was one of the most scarey approaches you have had to perform, I have to ask, why did you continue? Overconfidence
Several 'traffic patterns' seems to me that you had doubts about the site, yet ignored your recce!

Isn't the saying, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt !

[Thomas coupling]

Brantley: don't be such a pussy! You're a helicopter pilot man! Chest out stomach in and all that. Stick with ascerbic remarks now and again, they're from vets who have been cruelly beaten as children and psychologically damaged by years of multi engine whining in their ears:) They mean well = they are just shy!

Davy - my calculations by projecting to the end of 2012 means that if we can lose 8 Robbo's in 2 weeks, then 2012 will see the demise of: 208 robbo's :D:D:D
Let's hope that no animals or children are hurt during the period.

[Helinut]

It is always worth having a look at one of the web mapping/satellite sites. They can give you lots of useful information. Not to be relied upon, but it at least gives you a chance to think options whilst having all your brain available.

Always PLAN an alternate. You may well not use it, but having thought about it, it is in your mind as an option. Makes it easier to avoid being "forced" to go in.

[RMK]

Thanks for your feedback on the landing site and to others such as Uniform Kilo. Don’t be put off by the other posters; you get those types on all forums. I see it on skydiving, yachting and white-water kayaking forums. The phrases “I’ve never done it”, “never been there” or “don’t have any experience on the matter” are the usual keys to skip over their post. In this new Web 2.0 world anyone can see their thoughts in print – if you wade through the trash there’s some good information on here.

[powerlimited]

brantlyb2b & John R81

I'm honestly sorry if my post has offended you, I was only basing my response on what was written.

If I were to describe something as "scary", then thats what I mean - something which challenged me such that I wouldn't be comfortable.

But, I still stand by my comments required coming to an HOGE downwind, surely no one can justify this as sensible for a spot of lunch? And then you have to get back out of the site, which would pose the same issues only in reverse.

I'm certainly not going to get into a p*ssing contest over this.

[brantlyb2b]

Thanks for the apology,scary was just a turn of phrase,I should of put "surprise at the required steepness of approach because of some rather badly positioned conifers" and only two routes in and out.But after the abuse received from a couple of members after my comments I think Ill stick to veiwing like I have for the last few years and watch everyone slag each other off much easier.Oh and Silsoe sid my wife is a Consultant Psychiatrist and takes more to impress than flying to some Hotel that only seems to serve rabbit.She suggests from your post that you may have some repressed issues at some past valentine event that prompted your comments chin up mate theres always Viagra!

[nigelh]

Flown pax in there for lunch a few times some years ago . Must say I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary ...maybe I landed at the wrong spot !!
Incidentally the owner is a friend who had an R22 also . Sadly his crashed with the loss of 2 lives .
My worry is that my insurance goes up due to the robbo effect .
Don't remember rabbit on the menu but did have an excellent bottle of wine !!

[Tailboom]

I've been in to this site quite a few times and never thought of it as being difficult, you say it's not a big site but the last time I landed there we went in with 2 R44's no problem.
I'm sure there was another helicopter there too, definatly not a small site.

[SilsoeSid]

Having looked at the job spec for a consult whatchamachiatrist, it says;

"The skills required of a consultant psychiatrist include active listening skills, critical thinking skills, complex problem solving skills and social perceptiveness. Being aware of others' reactions helps to assess each situation accordingly.

Next time you take her flying, let her make the descision to continue in or not!
:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Bother, I missed the obvious!

The consultant psychiatrist equation;

ym/Wy(√Rn + Py) = Case study

where;
ym = years married
Wy=No of years wife has held position
Rn = Robinson number
Py = No of years pilot licence held

[[email protected]]

Back to confined area techniques - it all comes down to performance and you should not be conducting CA landings, especially 'scary' ones, without adequate performance or you are asking to be included on Davy 07s list.

The ability to hover OGE should be the absolute minimum performance you should consider for GA flying into a CA (or most other flying for that matter) and this would be suitable for 'easy' CAs - the sort where as UK says, you can avoid losing translational lift until you gain the benefit of ground effect.

But, and it is a big but, where obstacles force you into steeper (or eventually vertical) approaches, you really do need more than OGE power and a good working figure is a 10% thrust margin. Work out your max AUM for the OGE hover, then deduct 10% of that figure and make that your new max AUM for your CA - adjust fuel/pax/luggage weights accordingly.

The 10% still isn't a huge amount of extra power but it should allow you some margin for error when the wind isn't as expected or you don't fly the approach quite as well as you might or you suddenly lose the effect of the wind as you descend behind trees.

If you can't meet the required performance criteria then don't go into the CA just because you have a lunch/dinner/hot date - the R22 isn't forgiving in limited power scenarios (because it doesn't have much to start with) and it is all too easy to overpitch, droop the Nr, start to lose TR effectiveness and generally end up in a world of hurt.

I'm sure that most pilots have been taught that if you can see the far end of the landing area in a CA then you can make a single angle approach and if you can't you should make an approach to the obstacles on the near side of the CA until you can see the far end. If you can't see the far end of the CA at all on the approach then you are into a hover OGE and vertical descent (with suitable lateral and forward markers).

A single angle approach invites the 'keep TL until the ground effect kicks in' technique and may sucker you into attempting this with only OGE (or even less) power available - the point where you can get severely embarrassed is when there are obstacles upwind which mask the wind effect you are enjoying at height and suddenly drop you off TL with few options but a heavy or overpitched landing.

Lastly, don't forget that having got in there, you have to be able to get out and an easy approach may lead to a more difficult departure - again the 10% thrust margin is what you need for vertical departures.

Treat CAs with respect folks and keep some performance in hand.

[brantlyb2b]

Yes you really did miss the obvious ,its wasnt an R22,you hoped to be slagging off an R22 jock with low hours.This will be an end to it, I think I hit a nerve judging by the kindergarten response.

[Aucky]

Powerlimited - But, I still stand by my comments required coming to an HOGE downwind, surely no one can justify this as sensible for a spot of lunch?


Most downwind approaches effectively lead to an HOGE whether you like it or not (given that a 10kt tailwind will leave you with 0 airspeed across the disc with 10kts of groundspeed on the approach), thats why we need to be very aware that we're downwind, aware that we'll lose TX lift earlier than usual, and aware that if you don't have sufficient power to HOGE + a reasonable margin that you'll get yourself in trouble (Settling with power, Vortex ring, and Over pitching/low rpm/heavy landing), however with sufficient skill, awareness and power it doesn't have to be so dangerous as to be prohibitive. You have a low airspeed for longer on the approach and need to keep your ROD under control accordingly, and be ready to catch any loss of TX lift before you start to sink. When hovering OGE stationary with respect to the ground it makes no difference that we are downwind, and you may even have a little translational lift form behind, the disc doesn't know which way were looking. I would suggest that any license holder that doesn't clearly understand the effects mentioned above and who is reading this should certainly not be attempting such manoeuvres without further training and appreciation of the effects of approaching from downwind, and should not be interpreting my comments as saying that it's easy or "go for it", as has been mentioned, there's probably a better field nextdoor ;) And in general down wind approaches can be demanding enough without making the landing area a confined one.

And then you have to get back out of the site, which would pose the same issues only in reverse. If that approach was really chosen because it's the best/clearest/safest entry option downwind, then you could probably depart the opposite track into wind :ok: Potentially more dangerous is getting into this site into wind (nice and easy perhaps) but having to depart with the opposite track (downwind, and perhaps lacking forethought unaware of it due to the shelter of the trees and lunch time interval) maybe vertical, then loosing TX lift from behind as an acceleration is attempted and getting a little close for comfort to the trees in front. At least you have time to think about a downwind approach with the initial recce...

[SilsoeSid]

Yes you really did miss the obvious ,its wasnt an R22,you hoped to be slagging off an R22 jock with low hours.

Far from it, I think your type is too obvious. However the equation works regardless, it's not all about you! Any other type means that √Rn = 0 :ugh:

It is a simple formula that conpsyc's use to see if their pilot husband/partner is an interesting case study or not.

Which one did you take in? ASXDG, AVIP, AWDU, OAPR or was it OMAX?
I think I know :ok:

[MattSquire]

Edited for time being.

[Thomas coupling]

Crikey - let's all take a chill pill everyone. After all this is about landing at a bloody hotel for lunch, it's not landing a modern jet into the hudson is it!!

Let's just all revel in the fact and be grateful that another Robbo has been reduced to scrap.:ooh:

[rotorspeed]

Crab's post is the most valuable of all here. For confined area landings you must indeed be able to hover OGE as an absolute minimum, and the 10% margin is important.

Calculations of AUM for OGE hover are important, but even more critical is practical proof you can indeed hover OGE, with your acft, there and then. If there is any uncertainty, I like to try and bring the machine to an OGE hover, nearby the landing site, and see what power I'm using and what the reserve is. And high enough (eg 200ft) to regain TL afterwards if it can't be done. And when doing this it's vital to be patient and let the acft stabilise in a genuine OGE hover, for as the last 20kts bleed off, the power rise is big. Ok I know it might be in the avoid curve, but the risks of engine failure then are miniscule compared with risk of running out of lift and crashing on the way in.

If you pass the HOGE test you can approach the CA into wind with confidence. If not, you know you were right to divert to a clear area nearby and call for a lift.

[Thomas coupling]

Rotorspeed: why do you need to be inside the dead mans curve to do an OGE check?
Find out the height you need to be at (for your helo) to stay outside the H/V curve and then check your HOGE? Simples.

Advertising the possible use of the dead man's curve is not good karma for newbie's popping in for lunch now, is it? Wifey's prada handbag could get squashed in the subsequent forced landing:\

[Old and Horrified]

For those of you thinking of visiting the Vyrnwy hotel and who have not been there before, or those trying to understand this discussion, I thought I would dig out a couple of photos from November 2007 when my son took me there for lunch. Of course I immediately realised that the aircraft we were in was, in fact the one that crashed in Cambridge last week. Oh dear - with the terrible news from Welshpool yesterday, this has been a very bad couple of weeks.

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/doctorpeterw/IMG_3590850wide.jpg

The first one is the approach to the landing site from the South East. The site is just beyond the gap in the trees above the top left corner of the nav display. Sorry for the quality as my camera seems to have decided to focus on the screen rather than the outside.
http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/doctorpeterw/IMG_3593850wide.jpg

The second shows the size of the landing site – claimed to be enough for 4 helicopters. This view is facing south east and shows the direction we approached from. The approach was steep, but no different to other confined area landings we had done.

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/doctorpeterw/IMG_3594850wide.jpg


The third one shows the view to the South, with the roof of one of the hotel buildings in the background. The landing pad is quite a bit higher than the main hotel.
http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t480/doctorpeterw/IMG_3595850wide.jpg


The last shows the view towards the north west up the lake and shows the steep drop off at the edge of the site.

With Southerly breeze, as there was on the day of the accident, an approach from the North would be quite steep. I do not know where the accident happened with respect to these photos.

I know a lot of you don’t like R22s, but we had some very good trips in G-CHZN.

[powerlimited]

Hi Aucky,
Yes I appeciate the techniques involved with downwind approaches and that the fact the disk doesn't know which way its facing. However my point was originally aimed at the posts refering to the pilots become scared on approach etc, which does not inspire confidence.

I'm not going to get into the other issues with LTE and pilots gripping the Robbie throttle that hard when they tense up that they override the Governor and end up with Low RRPM. Don't shoot me down it does happen!

Having now seen the site (thanks old and horrified!), I would hope that any current pilot could safely make an approach, given the correct conditions.

[RotarySpanner]

I'm an engineer, and although it would appear that I am new here, I have actually checked in on PPRuNe periodically over many years to tap into what can be very interesting and valuable industry news/opinions. Certainly engineers talk, and we have our own means of doing so (cue abuse), but it's fascinating to see what you pilots really think about/do with the aircraft we leave outside the door.

Up until now, I have never felt the need to comment, as I am fully content in being a third party audience to the threads and opinions here. However, I couldn't quite get my head around certain comments made in this recent thread.

I know the Robbo's get a bashing here at times, and that certain members dissagree on various areas of the Robinson product line. I fully accept that, and everyone has their opinions based on their own experiences of the 22/44. But willfully talking about calculating hull losses? and enthusiastic talk of erradicating a product through continuation of current accident trends? Yes, people have survived the majority (how many will be put down to pilot error?) but a number of people have also died in the last couple of weeks. Post #28 of the CHZN thread shows that family and friends of (deseased) aviatiors can actually find their way onto these forums.

Don't get me wrong, there are many types out there that I'd love to crush with a wrecking ball, and I know all too well the humour involved in aviation that others dont understand or find offensive, but so many of these comments in just 3 pages of a relatively easily accessed forum, on an aircraft I have total trust in, was just enough to bring this lurking engineer out of the shadows.

With the greatest respect Thomas Coupling, as long as the pilots continue to follow the instructions on the side of Franks tin, there will be a large handfull of our Robbos that will not add to your target this year.

[topendtorque]

I would hope that any current pilot could safely make an approach, given the correct conditions.

doesn't look like a confined area's backside to me. methinks one could force land a Cessna 206 in there. The dumped aircraft site may be at six o'clock to the aircraft in picture two, behind the fence.

[RMK]

"Old & Horrified", Good pics of the landing area.

However, you know it's a rough crowd on here. On Picture #1 he's flying well out-of-trim. Quick, before anyone notices, you can switch the photo with this one below - I've digitally added some more right pedal.

http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj628/romopilot/Trimmed.jpg

[ShyTorque]

TET, I agree, it looks like a pretty good sized landing site from the photo posted above.

(measured on Google Earth: approx 55 metres by 78 metres).

[[email protected]]

Aucky - probably a point worth noting re downwind approaches - the disc may not care which way it faces once it is established in the hover but it does when you are flaring to reduce the speed to achieve that hover.

On an into wind approach you can flare to reduce the GS if you think your closure rate is too quick - flare effect is the result of a change in inflow angle giving an increase in AoA.

On a downwind approach, especially in the latter stages, the wind is already from behind you so that any flare has negligible effect because the inflow angle change doesn't increase the AoA.

This is the reason that most are taught that the key to a safe downwind approach is to keep the GS under control as a harsh flare at the end will just put the tail closer to the ground without washing off your speed - you will need a handful of collective to increase MR thrust with the vector pointing backwards - another reason for having a sensible power margin.

[Aucky]

Crab - couldn't agree more, that's why I said that most d/wind approaches end up in a hover OGE whether you like it or not... Implying you cannot flare so must make the approach slow and progressive... Only exception being maintaining sufficient speed to turn into wind last min with a flare which clearly wouldn't work into a confined area but would be my preferred method where space is plentiful... I agree that it's well worth highlighting though :ok: (as well as the possibility of jumping straight into VRing with a harsh downwind flare)

[stringfellow]

Old and horrified. Many thanks for the photos, it adds a certain clarity to the debate... but having read the entire thread up to that point i felt we were dealing with a really challenging site. It looks absolutely fine on the photos, absolutely typical of any number of sites here in the lakes...

Crab im slowly getting to grips with some of the flight regimes you discuss, many thanks for articulating it in a manner which is digestable, rather than just saying it 'happens'..

But while the confined area looks real easy from an armchair, if the wind isnt favourable , or perhaps a downdraught from the steep hill.. it will become a handful even with a fist full of power. So why bother going on in in the first place? Many years ago a friend of mine over pitched an enstrom and since then i love taking on confined areas but always insist on either nil wind or headwind, always solo in the 22 and always light in the 44. I have a fear of uncertainty and an even bigger fear of dying. My other little habit is glancing in at the gps versus airspeed just to check a rogue tailwind has not sneaked up on me!!... Plus smoke, ripples on water, direction any birds are facing etc etc..

Its easy to sit and comment but to me that site looks fine. I guess the poor chap must have had a real bad wind or something.. and i find myself questioning the thought process behind committing to land, if indeed wind or poor judgement was a factor. And good man the engineer who defended the aircraft, if memory serves me correct 90% of accidents are pilot error. There is nothing wrong with those machines its just we cant fly them.

[hillberg]

Nice area. You could land a few Chinooks in that field- It's not the machines falt when it's misused- Some people have more $$$ than scense' Looks like some one who just didn't fly too offten & It bit him.

[Antitorque]

Glad that both the pilot and passenger are both ok.

Having read the threads and landed at this site many times once when there were two helicopters already at the site. It seems alot of you are just having a dig at Robinson Helicopters. One thing is for certain the pilot didnt take off with the intention of crashing here or at anyother site !and nor was it his intention on purchasing or hiring to come to such a ending - I bet the unlucky pilot didnt even have his lunch.

10000 owners cant be wrong.

[newfieboy]

You's boy's in the UK call that a confined area......:ugh:I been on fires where there would be 20 machines parked and staging from an area like that......I'm on a job right now parking a B2 and 35metre survey bird on a 170ft line at a hotel tighter than that doing 3 approachs a day heavy.......:DNot dissing you boys, but come on, something missing in the CAA training syllabus if you think that is a confined area and you need to do OGE checks going in. Most places in Canada in the winter she's a no hover landing anyways......:ugh:Like I said, not being funny/ smart just saying and I'm an expat brit....

[SilsoeSid]

newfieboy, I think it was uniformkilo and aucky on page one that gave us the impression it was a confined area site. Hence the advice given by some earlier. Then the photos appeared. :rolleyes:

It certainly looks as if you could set up a Regt FARP in that field, Mrs Miggens' pie shop in one corner and await the hoards! :)

[Gordy]

Newfieboy

You's boy's in the UK call that a confined area...

Love it....:D:D

It certainly looks as if you could set up a Regt FARP in that field, Mrs Miggens' pie shop in one corner and await the hoards!

Classic....:D:D

Newfieboy--- How ya been? You make it home for christmas? I now have a home to go to.... Will PM you here in a day or 2...

[uniformkilo]

I think the pictures make it look bigger than it is. Either that, or it's a case of Honey I shrank the Robbie.

There certainly is enough space to land at Vyrnwy, and I guess everyone would applaud the provision by the hotel of a free well-maintained facility to land on within walking distance of lunch. The views from the restaurant are amazing, and the food is great.

It's not that it's too small for a safe arrival, especially for an experienced pilot in a powerful machine. I've seen at least 8 parked there at the same time. (It was tight).

But to an R22 pilot who may have 50 hours a year on a good year arriving overhead and looking at the setting it's in (slopes, trees, hills, lake, fences etc) it can seem quite small, especially when compared to the generous acres of flat grass available at training airfields. Add those factors to the need to the need to plan every approach in an R22 to keep in Tx as long as possible, and it can add up to quite a tiny site with not much margin for error.

[rotorspeed]

Mods - isn't it time that a new thread was created for all the chat about relative safety of different helos?

If I was Lake Vyrnwy I'd be rather concerned about others (eg the media) associating the extent of posts here with the safety of my heli landing area. I don't think anyone here is saying it's dangerous but we live in times of vulnerability of heli landing places, often on grounds of noise and safety, and should avoid giving anyone unfair grounds for concern.

I quite agree: the R22 discussion has been moved to R22 Operational safety (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/235864-r22-operational-safety-somebody-enlighten-me.html)

SP

[Hairyplane]

I posted what I thought was helpful advice about flying into this delightful site.

My flying school has a nice useful book full of helpful tips, advice and photographs of landing sites within easy reach.

Lake Vyrnwy was recommended by one of my instructors. He started his brief with, 'Its quite a challenging site, you need to be careful because...

For the benefit of others I posted my advice on this forum.

The inevitable 'Sky Gods' posted their usual advice based on limited information and no idea of my experience, loading or actual weather conditions on the days I have visited.

I have scrubbed trips there on numerous occasions because I wasn't happy with the weather.

I have always gone in light, ensuring sufficient power.

Photos posted here are misleading. It is a challenging site, albeit based on my limited 800hrs rotary ( and a couple of thousand fixed wing) experience.

Anyway, take my advice for what its worth. If it causes somebody to think a bit more before setting out for lunch there, great.

PPrune can provide some useful information. However, you do have to trawl through pointless posts to find it.

All the best

HP

[brantlyb2b]

The last post by Hairyplane is exactly what I was trying to achieve,albeit badly.It conveys everything I was trying to say,and hopefully will help another. And also when the pilot involved in this accident hopefully sees this ,he will feel a little less stupid and proud for getting them both out of a bad situation unhurt.We all make mistakes.

[Hairyplane]

Hi B2B,

Do you really have a Brantly?

Always fancied a go in one. If you fancy a trip to Southam, Warwickshire I'll stand you lunch and lob some fuel in your machine in exhange for a whizz round the block.

Happy to come to you...

Or see you at Lake V???!!;)

HP

[brantlyb2b]

Its About to go in for its annual then I will drop you an email.Im 15 mins from Wellsbourne!Ill give the Lake a miss until the engine overhaul!

[Antitorque]

For all the people that haven't been to Lake Vyrnwy here's a picture (Courtesy of The_Scout (http://www.pprune.org/members/42942-the-scout)) of the landing site with 8 machines on the ground and room for more.

Well worth a visit, one of the best Sunday lunches a pilot can have!

Although maybe I shouldn't be telling you this as the next time I go to land there I don't want to find 10 helicopters in front of me.

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/WideangleHelipad.jpg

[newfieboy]

Silsoe,

Mrs Miggins Pie Shop and a bloody shopping mall I would think, with still room for a couple cabs......:ok:

Gordy, all good matey, et vous....birdie tells me wedding bells soon, bout time me ole mucker......just scrapped in for Xmas, but away again right after. On my way home again, but getting screwed with airlines....oh the life of a touring pilot eh....:{.....interesting a home eh, that mean ya can throw away the
old traveling bag.....:ok:Good luck mate and ya know how to reach me if you need a 205/212 working North of the border, we got lots things coming up.......back to the bar flight delayed again. Take care Gordy.... catch up soon hopefully.....Newfie.

[hillberg]

Nic pix of scouts!

[SilsoeSid]

..and the Gazelle :ok: