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HTB
16th Jan 2012, 11:10
Idly flicking through the Freesat channels on Saturday and up pops the Dam Busters (again). It was immensely pleasing to see the film totally unexpurgated, to the extent that the inexorable lead up to the dog's demise had four or five instances of its real name being used. first by Gibson, then a Flt Sgt, then a mess corporal, another airman, the guardroom NCO - all shooing "Ni***r" (see, I'm too scared of the PC police to write what was spoken on public broadcast TV) on his way to being run over by the heartless bastard who didn't even bother to stop.

There were some great examples of displacement activity by the aircrew in the hours leading up to the launch for the raid; I think we've all done that in various ways in recent conflicts - not a lot changes in the human psyche over the years.

And the low flying sequences (although repeated a few times to give the impression of multi formations) were still impressive, given the era in which the film was made.

I'd watch it again...

Mister B

Courtney Mil
16th Jan 2012, 11:26
I saw it too and couldn't resist, Mr B. As we missed the start, Mrs C wants to get it on DVD! Life doesn't get any better than that!!

The low flying stuff was very well done and, although some of the special effects look a bit out of place today there were some toe-curling flying sequences.

Great film and a great tribute to Wallis and the Sqn.

Courtney

NutLoose
16th Jan 2012, 11:51
They actually announced before the film there was some racial words used in a historical context for accuracy........ simple and put the issue to bed.... Odd no one complains about Blazing saddles though isn't it.

The low flying, I read an article on the filming, they did the practice low shots in daylight flying at 60 FT as per the raid, but it looked awfully high on film so the director got them to reshoot it all at 30 FT!

Willard Whyte
16th Jan 2012, 11:51
Available on Blu-Ray too.

NutLoose
16th Jan 2012, 12:10
Just wish they would get on with the new version of it that is on hold.

The replicas for the film look good

Takeoff looms for Dambusters | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/2383809/Takeoff-looms-for-Dambusters)

Duckbutt
16th Jan 2012, 12:23
Just wish they would get on with the new version of it that is on hold.



Just intrigued, why do you think that a new version is needed?

glojo
16th Jan 2012, 13:51
I remember as a young child going to our community hall to watch that film when it first came out.. Hero worship!!

Just intrigued, why do you think that a new version is needed? Could it be that the audience of today lack the imagination that we had regarding enterrtainment? To me those 'special effects' were not special.. They were real.

My son laughs at the likes of original version of Quatermass whereas I can remember being terrified when it was first released. Now the audience demands to see bullet holes when people get shot!! :sad:

Pontius Navigator
16th Jan 2012, 13:59
Interesting to be reminded in the film that they got the bomb shape wrong - it was really cylindrical and not semi-spherical.

Equally coincidental was an episode of Foyle's War featuring sabotage and espionage at a NPL outstation where there was the proper shape bomb on a rig.

cazatou
16th Jan 2012, 14:42
PN

When did "Upkeep" come OFF the Secret List? When that film was made it would still have been possible to have dropped "Upkeep" from a Shackleton ; hence the altered shape. There was also the smaller variant "Highball".

Top Bunk Tester
16th Jan 2012, 14:44
PN
Most of the footage shown of the bomb being dropped was of the Naval version for anti shipping known as 'Highball' which was never used in anger. I don't believe any footage of the 'Upkeep' was used, or if it was it was the first drop scene where it was crudely inked out of every frame.

barnstormer1968
16th Jan 2012, 16:16
I have the dam busters on DVD and watched it only recently. Although I have mixed feelings on the real raid in terms of loss of civilian life v very little damage to the enemy* I am always amazed at how much damage the Lancasters created during the raid.....................As the aircraft are rarely actually carrying the special bombs on the way to the target in the film! The aircraft belly shape is correct, which makes it even more noticeable that the bombs are not in place!

*I cannot appreciate how folks in the UK saw this at the time, and was not alive during WW2, so like all wars/conflicts it is very hard to see the prevailing attitude of the period at a later date. In a similar vain I was walking through the local park today and noticed the low wall which was still missing its railings that were taken taken in WW2.
Morale aside, I couldn't help thinking that the gas for the cutting equipment lost in this operation was just so much more important than the IRON railings that were taken, only to end up as so much scrap metal.

NutLoose
16th Jan 2012, 17:05
Duckbutt, the film is being made by Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame, he is an avid aviation buff, has a large collection of WW1 aircraft, the even produce range of WW 1 model kit, the rights to the film belong to Stephen Fry, another aviation buff.... Bar the changing of the mutts name to Digger so as not to offend I think they will do a damned good job of it....

As to the why remake a classic... Well the actual dams going in the film was a bit weak, but the rest just rang all the right bells.
But even though it added to the films atmosphere it was in black and white.... Kids today just do not do black and white and a full colour all singing and dancing big budget version will bring the story to life and bring forth a new generation interested in aviation, our past and respect for those that fought to protect this country......
The Lord of the Rings trilogy did some much to rekindle interest in everything J R Tolkien wise, perhaps the same will rub off from this film.

Pontius Navigator
16th Jan 2012, 17:10
The Upkeep in the film was mounted on the Lancaster and was semi-spherical. I agree it was still classified when the film was made and presumably why they used the wrong shape deliberately.

I shudder to imagine a Shacklebomber with an Upkeep bouncing towards a Sverdlov.

NutLoose
16th Jan 2012, 17:14
Barnstormer, it may interest you that those wrought iron fences, and indeed the pots and pans were just a Propaganda exercise to make the population think they were helping the war effort.... In reality they were utterly useless for doing anything with, so All those historic fences were simply dumped, mainly in the channel!

Not a lot of people realise.

Scrap Metal - World War 2 Talk (http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/united-kingdom/8914-scrap-metal.html)

COCL2
16th Jan 2012, 17:24
I'm surprised non-ones tried to "colorize" the film
I can remember viewing the original version of King Kong on USA TV around 20 years ago - in colour. It had been computer "enhanced" and was surprisingly acceptable.. Maybe the film didn't appeal enough to USA audiences to make it worthwhile

500N
16th Jan 2012, 17:25
Still remember the cut railings from my school and my Grand mother said a guy with a horse and cart used to come round collecting pots and pans.

mmitch
16th Jan 2012, 17:49
Some time ago in Aeroplane magazine there was an article about
making the film. One of the RAF pilots who flew the Lancasters
said they actually flew them 'a bit' lower than the raiders!
Of coarse they did it in daylight, a filter turned it darker.
mmitch.

cazatou
16th Jan 2012, 18:00
PN

You have no sense of adventure!!:eek:

mmitch

I assume that Pilot was Flt Lt Jerzey (Joe) Kmiecik

Courtney Mil
16th Jan 2012, 18:51
they did it in daylight, a filter turned it darker

I'm sorry. I won't have that. The film is real and that's it! I saw Guy get into the aircraft and fly to the dam and bomb it. Please don't try to give me any of that "it was done with filters, clever angles", etc. That is how it was!!

500N
16th Jan 2012, 18:57
Courtney Mil

Are you another, I think BEagle type, started off in some prop driven plane and ended up in FJ's 30 years later LOL:O

Lima Juliet
16th Jan 2012, 19:19
I've just retired at the grand old age of 44 in the RAF - but I have 50hrs+ on Lancasters. Work that out...:ok:

So the railings were a wheeze, eh? Can I take the Govt to Court for the beautiful ones that once adorned my house prior to 1939? The ones that Wickes sell are :yuk:

LJ

PS. now serving as a "backroom boy" with the occasional bit of service flying.

BSweeper
16th Jan 2012, 19:20
500N

Sorry, but I must defend CM, who, my log book says, I flew with once in 1980 (31 July). I watched the film also and its top gen. How dare you desecrate Nsssss grave. Its all true - I swear (often).

Lima Juliet
16th Jan 2012, 19:28
Looking at the link to Peter Jackson's mock up Lanc. Please tell me they're going to film in the UK with 2 ground runable Lancs and one of only two airworthy (there is also talk of the 2nd (total 3) getting an airworthy ticket - Just Jane). Also, the hill in the background of the mock up picture would mean that RAF Scampton has been subject to subsidence and slipped off the top of the Lincoln Edge!

I do hope that Peter Jackson is going to take the advice of those that have flown Lancasters. There are stacks of us (in comparative terms) around!

LJ

PS. What a fuss about nothing when it comes to the dog, see here what another famous director has done in recent times...

By J. Douglas Allen-Taylor


I WENT TO SEE Quentin Tarantino's Jackie Brown a few weeks ago and heard actor Samuel L. Jackson use the word "nigger" to refer to half of Southern California, from black drug dealers to Pam Grier to Robert De Niro to all the folks on the streets of L.A.'s Koreatown.

"Look, I hate to be the kinda nigga does a nigga a favor, then--bam--hits a nigga up for a favor in return," Jackson tells another black character in the movie. "But I'm afraid I gotta be that kinda nigga."

Along with snappy pop-culture dialogue and fits of explosive violence, the use of the word "nigger" has become something of a trademark of Tarantino films. (Tarantino, by the way, is white.) When Tarantino himself finds a murdered black man in his garage in Pulp Fiction, he asks Samuel Jackson if there was a sign outside reading "Dead Nigger Storage." And when John Travolta questions the quality of a stash of drugs in Pulp Fiction, the white dealer asks him, "Am I a nigger? Is this Compton?"

cazatou
16th Jan 2012, 20:00
500N

I think that you should check your "Facts" before posting. You should also take account of the different Training Regimes pertaining to the RAF 40+ years ago compared to that of the Air Force of your Country.

BEagle started on single piston aircraft because he went to University - I started on single jets because I did not go to University. By the time Beagle joined the RAF proper I was training to be a QFI having served on 2 Squadrons.

Milo Minderbinder
16th Jan 2012, 20:00
This is the way the film-makers mindset works:

Calling a black man a nigger is OK as long as the man doing it is black. That way you can either explain it as "ironic" or clam that in a "blaxploitation" film it simply proves how badly black people have been treated by the whites over the years, to a point that they have been brainwahed to even insult their own.
Calling a dog nigger, equates a black man with a dog and so is totally unacceptable.

There was a an old kids film on which a dog was called Bender. Wonder if there would be a problem if they remade that now?

barnstormer1968
16th Jan 2012, 20:04
Nut Loose

Of no interest to me at all really, because I had just said the same thing in my post when I said:

"Morale aside, I couldn't help thinking that the gas for the cutting equipment lost in this operation was just so much more important than the IRON railings that were taken, only to end up as so much scrap metal"

I highlighted IRON just in case anyone had thought iron was a lightweight material suitable for aircraft production, or strong like steel used in armour:E

I was trying (and failing in your case) to point out that although the iron was taken just to boost morale, the man hours and gas used could have been much better utilised for war material production:ok:

HTB
16th Jan 2012, 20:18
Hey, 500N

There's nothing wrong with starting on fans and moving up to blo...jets:E

And Courtney is right, I too saw Guy do all that, so it must be real...right down to the neatly rolled up shirtsleeves (although I think his batman could have done a better ironing job given the significance of the mission).

Beags old bean - fess up; is Caz right to say you went to uni? I thought you were a Cranners lad through and through.

I started my military flying career on single piston aircraft, not single jets; does that mean I too went to uni?

Mister B;)

proplover
16th Jan 2012, 20:18
In reply to an earlier posting - there have been several articles on the filming of the Dams Raid. At the time it was said that the Bomb was in fact still on the Secret list so its size and shape had to be modified, this had the effect of making the films "Bomb" far more visable to the camera. There were only 3 airworthy Lancs available at the time hence why a lot of the formation shots are of 3. Most of the RAF base ground filming was carried at at RAF Hemswell just up the road from Scampton including the final scene where 'Gibson' walks away. Richard Todd who played Gibson learnt enough when doing the filming to taxi a Lanc around although I believe he came a cropper years later when trying to re-inact this fact with what is now Just Jane.
The original is a brilliant film and I fear the film worlds over use of things like CGI in a new version will never look as good as a real Lanc thundering over the countryside!

kaikohe76
16th Jan 2012, 20:21
As I understand it, the name of Gibson's original Dog was `Nigger` & the name was used a number of times in the film, one of them being one of the code words for the successfull attack on one of the Dams.
If this upsets the odd person to day, that most definitely is not & would not be my intention, I'm mearly just stating the situation & facts as they were in the 1940s. I'm sorry folks, you can't change history.

500N
16th Jan 2012, 20:31
I was having a dig at Courtney, hence the :O, don't take it to heart,
it was payback directed at him:ok:

I'm sure he got it.


I like the posts from the earlier flyers who flew the WWII vintage aircraft
and then went on to more modern one's.
.

Courtney Mil
16th Jan 2012, 20:46
Yeah, I deserve it all, 500N. If all else fails, just have a go at Courtney. :ok: I know. But, as it happens, you did flush out somehting very interesting, to me anyway.

CM, who, my log book says, I flew with once in 1980 (31 July)

VX489, Medium Level PIs, 1:50. Hello, CP!

Sorry, we're not supposed to be boring old gits here. I'll get back to the thread in a moment...

HTB
16th Jan 2012, 20:58
No problem 500 proper banter, that is. anyway, Courtney has a history of starting on fans...or is that stopping them...with his head.

By the way CM, on that Akrotiri det that I vaguely mis-remembered, did you have a large, loud Canadian pilot who wore a chicken on his head (I know this sounds surreal to anyone who was not at that happy hour, fuelled by brandy sour and Keo/Carlsberg)?

Mister B (more like mists of time...)

Courtney Mil
16th Jan 2012, 21:13
Mr B.

500N's is indeed the real thing. I hope people don't somestimes misunderstand him. Nothing as priceless as proper banter!

Still have the fan scars - will find suitable picture soonest - not pretty.

I did indeed own a big Canadian. We called him Don. Bit of a c0ck up on the getting on with the boss on exchange front, so left a bit early. Now living in BC and in good shape. You have a scary memory!!!!

BSweeper
16th Jan 2012, 21:18
Mmitch

According to the book, which I have completely re-read in the last 5 minutes, many of the practice sorties in daylight, some flown over the LadyBower reservoir, used filters in the pilots goggles to mimic moonlight conditions. Perhaps that's where the story originates.

Far more importantly, hello CM! I flew in XV399 that day. Is it possible we flew together in different aircraft - a world first or seriously scary. Best R. CP.

Mister B. The only loud Canadian that I knew, and he was the loudest of the loud, was the Sloop Don B. Many good times with him (delivering a jet to TLP, too much fuel, full re-heat with AB out, 5 deg nose down and 0.9M S&L -strange feeling)

Courtney Mil
16th Jan 2012, 21:22
Yes BSweeper. We were well into our fifties when we first flew the F4 together in 1980. I was just trying to recall from memory - maybe I should look at my log books in future! I think I remember you with your sextant in my Lancaster. :cool: But it may be the pills.

Hope all is well with you. Long time...

Anyway, back to the thread. My Dad flew Lancs, but not on that mission. He did tell me about using dark gogs to simulate night. He said they nearly killed him because everything just went dark. At least on a good night he had moonlight, cultural lighting, even starlight. With the death goggles on everything was just black and and dangerous. I guess he did't like them.

It's not often we say, "I'd rather actually be night flying"

polecat2
16th Jan 2012, 21:29
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this book:

Filming the Dam Busters: Amazon.co.uk: Jonathan Falconer: 9780750937122: Books


BTW I found it cheap in a remaindered bookshop. Like finding a diamond among the dross.

Polecat2

Skittles
16th Jan 2012, 22:03
Suggesting that changing the dog's name is redundant because black people often say it to each other is incredibly stupid. Similarly, choosing what has always been a controversial film like Pulp Fiction as a basis for comparison is equally ignorant.

Surely you have a grasp of context? I could (not that I do) go up to my best mate and call him any name under the sun straight to his face - without any consequence. Do you think I'd get the same reaction from him as I would a stranger in town on a Saturday night?

When my housemate (who's gay) came back with his boyfriend the other evening and asked him 'want a cup of tea faggot?' do you reckon that means I can address him in the same way?

PPRuNeUser0178
17th Jan 2012, 00:13
Proplover, the last seen with Gibson walking away was most def not filmed at Hemswell it was done at Scampton. Go on the Scampton museum tour and the first thing you will be shown after the main gate is exactly where that scene took place.

The take off shots were filmed at Hemswell, with the tails in the hedge at the start of the run apparently!!!

Jamieone
17th Jan 2012, 03:03
It appears that the actor who played Sqn Ldr Maudslay's character subsequently spent many a year pouring pints at the Woolpack in Emmerdale. I knew I recognised the face:

Richard Thorp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Thorp)

henry crun
17th Jan 2012, 05:37
Leon Jabachjabicz: You mention the hill in the background of the mock up picture.
I hope you don't think Jackson would make such a basic mistake as to try and pass that off as Scampton.

The photo was taken at the small rural airfield of Masterton, which happened to be a convenient place to assemble the first mockup.

The Oberon
17th Jan 2012, 06:08
Why bother with a new one, keep the original with reworked dam breaching effects, job done.

I always thought Black Buck 1 would have made a good film.

Mike7777777
17th Jan 2012, 06:42
Go on the Scampton museum tour and the first thing you will be shown after the main gate is exactly where that scene took place. I enjoyed the tour a few years ago, is it still available? Also Bucc lurking in the background at Scampton, which was a surprise.

BEagle
17th Jan 2012, 08:01
When we did our JP night flying, it was 1974 and the nation was still facing frequent blackouts due to the legacy of the 'Three Day Week'. Everything would be turned off except the aerodrome lights on some nights - even the Cheerio Cafe had to shut. The solo navex across East Anglia was very interesting - just a few aerodrome pundits and the lights of the aircraft ahead. Probably as close to wartime black out as anyone could ever experience!


(500N / HTB, in the days when I first joined, future RAF pilots could apply for an RAF Scholarship before going to RAFC Cranwell. I did, so I had about 40 hrs on puddlejumpers before arriving at Bull$hit Towers in Sep 68. Then, on about Day 2, we were told that a new scheme had just come in and that we could apply to go to University. Several folk did so immediately; the rest of us did a year of joy in the SBL / JM blocks with lots of marching around in horsehair blue before going to University. The UAS was such fun that I had to repeat a year of my course (although there were also personal reasons) and I didn't graduate until 1973... Then Officer Training and JPs at RAFC Cranwell before flying my first fast jet, the Gnat, in 1975.)

Courtney Mil
17th Jan 2012, 08:54
I did the old flying scholarship too. Lots of wonderful flying from Cambridge airport with Marshalls in Cessna 150s. I had a Private Pilot's Licence before I had a driving licence - even a provisional one!

teeteringhead
17th Jan 2012, 08:58
Beags old bean - fess up; is Caz right to say you went to uni? ... good Lord, another illusion shattered! BEags as an undergrad in the 60s (just).

Difficult to imagine him with long hair (any hair really :ok:), a flowery shirt and what one believes is termed a "spliff".

What next? That he's really just another grammar school oik? ;) Surely no more revelations.....

BEagle
17th Jan 2012, 09:09
No flowery shirt, though I regret that one did have flared jeans.....and polo neck shirts :eek:.

Hair never recovered from the efforts of 'Slasher' at Cranwell!

I have never smoked anything ever:=. Only food, drink and parts of the female anatomy have been on my lips! :E

I still had my 'L' plates when my PPL arrived in the post - don't expect to pass your driving test if the only instruction you've had is from your Dad in the family second car - a somewhat elderly 100E.

Courtney Mil
17th Jan 2012, 09:19
I did indeed take my test with that level of instruction. I failed.

Hey, my old jeans are back in fashion now. Flares, true style is timeless!

Nothing wrong with being just another grammar school oik.

Digitally remastered Dam Busters DVD is ordered!

BEagle
17th Jan 2012, 10:03
Flares, true style is timeless!

Yup, the early 1970s style of girls wearing flimsy cheesecloth hippy blouses and flared hipster jeans had a lot going for it! Ooooh yes!

When I arrived at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, one of my VC10 course colleagues received an invite to a private social do at a Wg Cdr's home (which might or might not have have been 'Pnomh Penh Len'...), who'd written 'lounge suits' on the invite! "Great", said the invitee, "I've got just the thing. A hideous, 1970s purple crushed velvet suit with huge lapels, flared jacket and massively flared trousers!". He went in this get-up; the Wg Cdr's frostiness was only exceeded by his wife's!

When your DVD arrives, Courtney, look for the 'Ghost of Nigger'. In the scene where 'Barnes Wallis' is talking to 'Guy Gibson' at the end of the film, you can clearly see a black dog running about in the background even though there were reputedly no black labradors at Scampton at the time.....:confused:

teeteringhead
17th Jan 2012, 10:09
And I might as well chuck in my "filming of original Dambusters" story - apologies to those who have seen it when I've posted it before.

Many problems at Scampton and Hemswell with lots of "luvvy" erks and officers wandering around, failing to give or return proper salutes. Cue 2 x confused and apoplectic SWOs. Solution: luvvies to wear brown shoes/boots to distinguish them from "real" personnel. All looks the same in B&W.

But ..... Richard Todd, having held the King's Commission, insists on wearing black footwear, and giving and returning compliments.

I so hope it's true.....

Wander00
17th Jan 2012, 10:26
Blooming heck - who mentioned "100E"? My first car - cost me £48, traded it in for a 105E Anglia for £50! Don't remeber cheese cloth tops at LTC though! More like cardies and wincyette (with the odd notable exception!)!

Ramshornvortex
17th Jan 2012, 10:56
I always thought Black Buck 1 would have made a good film.

Channel 4 are doing just that - transmission to coincide with the 30th anniversary this Spring;)

To be fair, it will be more a dramatised reconstruction with 'talking heads' than a feature film.

Sorry for the thread drift....

NutLoose
17th Jan 2012, 11:33
I have never smoked anything ever:=. Only food, drink and parts of the female anatomy have been on my lips! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif



Ahh a toe sucker..... :E


I agree the Black Buck would make a good film.

John Farley
17th Jan 2012, 11:34
An excellent film (BTW nothing wrong with a 100E. One took me to work when trying to sort out XP831. It was a fraction better with an ali head, twin SUs, an A-frame and Konis at the back and decent roll bar on the friont plus an extra gearbox giving 6 forward gears and 2 reverse. Mind you the brakes and the wipers still did not work). Like I said an excellent film.

HTB
17th Jan 2012, 12:48
What have I started? Won't the film have to be named "Ethnically Diverse Buck of African or Asian Origin"?

Courtney

Another memory leaked into my synapse - as a consequence of the loud Canuk with the chicken on his head taking umbrage to a cocky and pompous Tornado (GR1) nav caling him a "cock-head" (or similar) and generaly being abusive to the whole sqn, said nav was pinned out in the garden using convenient croquet hoops; his buddies seemed to think that was just desserts, so left him there for quite a while. I think it was a UK-based Tornado sqn, certainly not from LBH:ok:

Mister B

Courtney Mil
17th Jan 2012, 13:17
Yeah, Mr B. He was a colourful character. Of course, the bar at Akrotiri was no place to upset people unless you wanted swift and severe retribution. I recall OC 43 (HD) being badgered by a nav one evening in the bar. He turned to a large sqn pilot and barked in his characteristic cockney, "Walta, take 'im out!". Pilot takes nav outside, boys hear duffing up noises and pilot returns to his beer. Nav re-appears looking worse for wear and verbally attacks boss again about the damage to his £150 italian leather shoes. Bored boss barks, "Walta, when I say take 'im out, I mean 'ospital job!"

A good job nothing like that happened in that wonderful film about the dambusters.

cazatou
17th Jan 2012, 13:26
COCL2

IIRC the film was withdrawn from the USA because the American distributors added footage of B 17's taking part in the Raid. Caused quite a stir in the British Press!!

Richard Todd walked out of the Premiere!!

BEagle
17th Jan 2012, 14:02
...said nav was pinned out in the garden using convenient croquet hoops; his buddies seemed to think that was just desserts, so left him there for quite a while...

Our UAS girls did something similar to one of the UAS male students who they'd caught doing a Peeping Tom on their accommodation at one summer camp. After completing croquet hoop crucifixion, a garden hose was inserted up his trouser leg, followed by several bowls full of dirty washing up water via a funnel attached to the other end.

We QFIs merely looked the other way....

JF, I did like the idea of the heroic P1127 test pilot driving to work in a 100E! Even brand new, it was blessed with a mere 36bhp (the 100E, that is!) and I can't believe that the ally head and twin SUs reduced the 0-60 in 29.4s time by very much. How ever did the extra gearbox thing work? You're right about those wipers though - a penumatic tank driven by inlet manifold pressure powered the things. I use the word 'powered' rather generously. As you put your foot down in an attempt to pass something (bicycle, horse, pedestrian or perhaps a pre-war Austin 7), despite optimistic pneumatic hissing from the engine bay, they would slow down completely until almost stopped - just what you need when trying to overtake in pouring rain. Lift off again and they would thrash themselves in a mad frenzy - we often had to recover the passenger side wiper from over the Somerset hedges! As for 'brakes'.....they really were pretty awful.

Yes, Black Buck should be a good docudrama whern Ch4 release it. Much of the filming was done using XM655 at Wellesbourne Mountford as it is far more representative of XM607 than any other surviving Vulcan able to be powered up.

John Farley
17th Jan 2012, 15:16
BEages

The answer to that has gone as a PM (aren't I a good boy)

The Old Fat One
17th Jan 2012, 15:35
I commend to you all "Dambusters" by Max Arthur, forword by Stephen Fry. Totally awesome account of this historic feat of arms.

As good as the original is, a remake is way overdue. This was a "larger than life" act (60 feet in a lanc, at night, or in daytime with the windows covered in blue cling film...**** that!!) that needs to be seen again with all the technology the film industry now has. The main players behind the film seem to have the right attitude to history and therefore the "truth" seems to be in good hands.

I don't know the scope of the new film, but one thing that is totally missing from the original is the view from the ground...both horrendous (many of the casualties were Ukranian women captives) and remarkable (read the book's chapter on the gun placements on the Mohne).

I hope the remake takes a broader view, is well directed, well cast and historically accurate. If so, it will be an epic.

Pontius Navigator
17th Jan 2012, 15:51
remarkable (read the book's chapter on the gun placements on the Mohne).

Not read it but one Sgt Nav, 'Spike' Hughes who was later S Int O at Waddo in 1967 flew his first and only mission immediately following the dams raid. Int briefed them that it would be a cake-walk was all the searchlights and flak would be kaput because of the floods.

He got shot down. He said that Int had not realised all the searchlights were powered with portable generators.

Mike-Bracknell
17th Jan 2012, 18:40
Having been to the Mohne dam this summer, one of the most striking aspects of the real life versus the film is that the topography around the dam is surprisingly flat, rather than hilly as per Derwent Water.

I came back and quizzed my 91yr old 617 sqdn Lanc pilot, and he said it wouldn't matter as the crates were pretty difficult to handle at that height and speed anyway.

wub
17th Jan 2012, 19:07
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/view%20from%20aeroplane%20seat/October-2005-055.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/view%20from%20aeroplane%20seat/October-2005-060.jpg

NutLoose
17th Jan 2012, 19:35
You'll never get it to bounce from up there Wub :ok:

Ubehagligpolitiker
17th Jan 2012, 20:26
I went with good number of my initial officer training course (No 210)to watch the film in Cirencester's flea pit way back in 1965. Universal opinion at the de-brief in the Black Horse was a great film that did all concerned full justice. It was highly motivational stuff for young cadets who otherwise spent their days square bashing and knitting rafts together.

The Old Fat One
17th Jan 2012, 22:38
that did all concerned full justice.


Really.

I must have missed the scene with the unteroffizer in charge of the gun crew walking out onto the parapet and popping off with his sidearm because that was all he had left.

Or the commandant of the women's concentration camp struggling through the flood to release the chained up females.

Seriously, there were a sh1tload of heroes that night. Some have not yet had their 15 minutes in the spotlight.

Read the book.

NutLoose
17th Jan 2012, 23:40
And don't forget this guy..

carling black label dambusters - YouTube

boguing
18th Jan 2012, 00:41
Given that Gibson was not exactly a likeable man, doesn't the fact that he thus named his dog give a character clue to the viewer? Lack of emotion/steely...

Perhaps the director of Dambusters "1" didn't make the point strongly enough. Nigger had been unacceptable for more than a hundred years prior. I made the connection in my early teens.

NutLoose
18th Jan 2012, 01:42
But in those days it was also a colour of paint that was jet black, similar to his mutt! Straight up, this was one of the other colours they did, see link below... Remember in those days the UK was not such a cosmopolitan population it is today and when the first black troops arrived from the USA they were treated as friends and equals, without any racial thoughts against them, as they should be, much to the chargrin of the white US troops who treated them poorly.


A Welsh View: 'Nigger Brown' Paint (http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2007/06/nigger_brown.html)

Poor dog, if it knew the controversy he would spawn

Slasher
18th Jan 2012, 02:02
all shooing "Ni***r"

Wingco Guy Gibson's dog was called "Nigger". It it a given
historical record whether the bloody tree hugging commie
PC brigade nutcases like it or not.

HTB
18th Jan 2012, 07:37
Yes, I know that. Just didn't want to be the first to say it, given the random and specious reasons that Mods apply to banning posters. As always, it is not the intent, or lack of it, to offend, but the perception of the recipient (or more likely a third party taking offence on behalf of others).

Mister B (as in "Bastard" - oops, am I alowed to say that?:O)

John Farley
18th Jan 2012, 12:23
Interesting thread in a thread.

The last time I used the word was at Dunsfold in 1984 when I was briefing 4 chaps before demonstrating some flight test techniques to them in a Seminole. I was talking about spiral stability and said "the nigger in the woodpile is control circuit friction". The three white youths looked horrified and the black lad just grinned. I guess he realsed there was no racist intent on my part and that the common colloquial expression (at least when I was a lad) was just that.

In my view many adherents of PC fail to take the circumstances into account and as a result bring genuine PC (which I fully support) into disrepute. Shame really.

BEagle
18th Jan 2012, 13:16
JF, the PC version used nowadays is "The non-reflective lurking in the lumber"!

John Farley
18th Jan 2012, 13:34
BEages.

Oh dear. Some of us old dogs are not good at learning new tricks.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jan 2012, 13:45
Oh fgs

When is it ever going to be possible to talk seriously about either the dams raid or the film of same without going on

and on

and on

and on

about that bloody dog's name. It's all been said on here before ad infinitum :ugh:

mikip
18th Jan 2012, 14:49
Shame that discussion about the film if poisened by harping on about that word, if the word is not used in a racist context it's just another word

Pontius Navigator
18th Jan 2012, 15:12
I had a paint box back in my primary school days (before they called them primary) and it had two particular colours one black and one white but one, and I cannot recall which one was, let us say, Ivory Black or it could have been the white that had the contrary and unacceptable description.

NutLoose
18th Jan 2012, 18:45
Black and white are not actually colours PN, but I digress, there was an interview done by Steven Fry in last chance to see where he interviewed Mr J in a hangar and there was a full size Wellington replica in the background.

cazatou
18th Jan 2012, 19:24
Let us not forget that Gibson took off on his first Operational Sortie at 18.15 on the 3rd September 1939 - returning at around Midnight. After his first Tour as a Bomber Pilot he became a Night Fighter Pilot (with "Kills" to his credit) before returning to Bomber Command.

None of us have had to do what he had to do over such a length of time!

NutLoose
18th Jan 2012, 20:31
Following on from the thread re Gibson dying when getting shot down attempting to catch out Lanc gunners, the last copy of Britain at War had a further letter to the one saying he died when bailing out saying he actually survived the bailing out but drowned when he landed.

Airborne Aircrew
18th Jan 2012, 21:24
Wingco Guy Gibson's dog was called "Nigger". It it a given
historical record whether the bloody tree hugging commie
PC brigade nutcases like it or not. In memory of a much loved dog that will be expunged from history because of the weakness and stupidity of the left.

The Dambusters: A Dog Called Nigger - YouTube

Courtney Mil
18th Jan 2012, 21:31
Oh no he won't. As long as the film survives, so will a memorable Black Lab.

pr00ne
18th Jan 2012, 21:32
Much loved dog! Now who's rewriting history?

Talk to anyone who was around at the time and you will find that they hated the wretched thing, it was more unpopular than Gibson, if such a thing is possible.

The mess bonhomie shown in the film is total and complete fiction.

Courtney Mil
18th Jan 2012, 21:34
pr00ne,

It's a film. The dog in the film is great. Worry not.

Airborne Aircrew
18th Jan 2012, 21:43
Proone:

You've never owned a dog then?

Gibson loved Nigger just like Nigger loved Gibson. People are irrelevant.