Historical maritime input to aviation

[RMC]

Having been flying professionally for qurater of a century I'm in the middle of my mid life crisis so have taken up sub aqua diving.

Obviously been aware of a number of areas where aviation adopted navy practices but am interested to know how many other examples are out there...starter for ten

1 - Rank of Capt / F/O
2 - Port Stbd and tail lighting / right of way rules
3 - Boarding passengers from the PORT side
4 - Terminology such as wake, cargo, hold etc

Going the other way we brought to the party
i - Mayday
ii - ELTs

[Brian Abraham]

Thanks for the origin of Mayday. Never knew that. Sort of assumed its origin would have been nautical.

The history of amateur radio (http://astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-ham-history-titanic.htm)

The Mayday callsign was originated in 1923 by Frederick Stanley Mockford (1897–1962). A senior radio officer at Croydon Airport in London, Mockford was asked to think of a word that would indicate distress and would easily be understood by all pilots and ground staff in an emergency. Since much of the traffic at the time was between Croydon and Le Bourget Airport in Paris, he proposed the word "Mayday" from the French m’aider. "Venez m'aider" means "come help me.

[BOAC]

Not forgetting 'SOS' of course which is far older than 'MayDay' and was developed in the days of telegraphic communication.

The ELT replaces 'floating debris' which also relied on survivors/radios/flares which one cannot in an air accident.

Not sure where the Golden Rivet has gone though. Catch me going into the E&E bay with my Captain.........................:)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Aviation inevitably took on much terminology from the maritime world as it was concerned with navigation, ie the science of conducting a vessel (Lit. a container) from a to b by scientific means. No one else had the skills to do this, it all derived from the maritime world.

Hull, fin, bulkhead, stringer, rudder, galley, tiller (as opposed to steering-thingy) heading, track, (tidal) drift. There must be dozens more.

That's why naval aviation is the purest form of the Science.

Fly Navy!
Sail Army.
Eat Crab.
;)

[BOAC]

Having known several FAA guys, 'purest' is not the word I would choose..............:)

[VX275]

Some use Nautical miles and Nautical miles and hour (Knots) for aviation purposes.

[Rosevidney1]

And our American brothers fly ships!

[Brian Abraham]

Not forgetting 'SOS' of course which is far older than 'MayDay' and was developed in the days of telegraphic communication.

BOAC, the history of "SOS" is interesting also.

The Morse code "SOS" was adopted by German ships (This distress signal was first adopted by the German government in radio regulations effective April 1, 1905) for signifying distress while the British marine, working with Marconi operators, wanted to keep CQD (General Call Disaster that some translated by Come Quick Disaster) as a distress signal. It was first decided to use SOE, but the small "E" dot can easily be lost in QRM and one suggested to replace it with an S, as in repeating three time the small dot the operators had much more chance to arrest the attention of anyone hearing it, hence SOS, that was adopted at the Berlin Radiotelegraphic Convention in 1906 as the official international standard for distress calls. But Marconi operators were slow to conform, and until 1907 Marconi companies continued to work with the "CQD", associating it if necessary to SOS.

The first time the SOS signal was used in an emergency was on June 10, 1909 when the Cunard liner "SS Slavonia" wrecked off the Azores.

[India Four Two]

Hull, fin, bulkhead, stringer, rudder, galley, tiller (as opposed to steering-thingy) heading, track, (tidal) drift. There must be dozens more.


Not forgetting cockpit, of course.

[Groundloop]

3 - Boarding passengers from the PORT side

However a number of US airliners built in the 1930's (Boeing 247, some DC-3s - if not more) had the passenger door on the starboard side - each individual airline decided which side they wanted the door on.

Also the Comet had the rear door on the port side and the front door on the starboard side - some airlines used both for pax boarding.

Finally have seen many ships berthed starboard side to - so at least this claim is spurious:ok:

[skua]

Going the other way, aviation gave the maritime world transponders.

[teeteringhead]

Surprised no-one has mentioned the terms "pilot" and "navigator", both of obvious nautical origin.

But needed distinquishing in earlier days - the City Livery Company GAPAN (formed in 1929) is the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators.

And of course in a British military context, many RAF ranks and (sort of) rank insignia were taken from the RN:

Flight Lieutenant = Lieutenant = 2 stripes/rings

Wing Commander = Commander = 3 stripes/rings

Group Captain = Captain = 4 stripes/rings

Air Commodore = Commodore = 1 very thick stripe/ring

[oxenos]

The titles Squadron Leader and Wing Commander appear in Kipling's works, pre-dating the RAF, and refer to Cavalry formation leaders.

[teeteringhead]

That's understood oxenos, but they were post or position titles then rather than ranks.

Indeed, the cavalry still refer to "squadron leaders" who are majors, rather than "company commanders" as the PBI would.

[TheiC]

Finally have seen many ships berthed starboard side to - so at least this claim is spurioushttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Early vessels were steered using an oar over the side near the stern; this was vulnerable to damage. Because the majority of sailors were (are) right-handed, this oar was attached on the right-hand-side, which was the then called the steering-board, or starboard side.

To protect the oar, and probably for other reasons of depth, current, etc, which influence manoeuvring, berthing was normally to the other, ladebord or larboard side, later termed 'port', probably because 'larboard' and 'starboard' were easily confused across a windy deck.

Modern vessels can indeed berth either side to to suit the circumstances. Some small vessels are easier to bring alongside one way than the other because of prop-walk, which causes yawing under forward and reverse thrust:

If you have bow-to-port propwalk under astern thrust, it's easier to berth starboard-side-to, as an oblique approach may be made, bringing the vessel close to the berth, then application of astern propulsion simultaneously arrests forward motion and swings the stern in, while the whole vessel drifts neatly to a standstill against the berth - this is like doing a 'greaser' if you get it right, and is seldom achieved with onlookers. To leave the berth (assuming still wind and no current) a rope (called a spring) is rigged from the starboard side of the stern, running forward along the berth to a bollard ashore amidships or further forward. Astern propulsion is engaged, the spring prevents motion astern, and the bow swings neatly out from the berth. At the right moment, forward propulsion is engaged and the spring is released, and the vessel is safely making way.

Large vessels are of course assisted by tugs and/or have thrusters for lateral (and sometimes 360 degree) control.

[oxenos]

Teethead,
They were indeed description of posts rather than ranks, but those who decided on the RAF's ranks must have been aware of them.
TheiC
The answer to not being able to grease to boat into its billet with an audience is to get in early and then sit with a large G & T watching everyone else f@ck it up. Works for me.

[teeteringhead]

Indeed so, but I guess the name came via the formations; ie - we'll call a bunch of aircraft a Squadron after horses, so best we call our majors Squadron Leaders - has to be better than Flight Lieutenant Commanders which would follow the navy logic!

[twochai]

Off topic, perhaps, but very topical none the less:

If what is coming out about the Costa Concordia fiasco is only half correct, it's about time the maritime world took on board (no pun intended) some of aviation's management successes: Safety Management systems, Cockpit Resource Management, etc.

[alosaurus]

Traditionally a map was normally used for establishing position on land / chart previously used only at sea. We went for charts!

[teeteringhead]

As a pilot I always used to think that charts were what pretentious navigators called maps! ;)

[wrecker]

I always thought a chart had to be conformal but a map didn't!

[Mypyrex]

Well at least we don't refer to aircraft loos as "The Heads":rolleyes:

[Daysleeper]

Nautical tradition also gave us crazy collision avoidance regulations that take no account of the difficulty of seeing-and-avoiding the glider your about to hit. (I'd point out that they struggle to comply with them even when the target is 300 meters across and moving at 10 kts).

[frontlefthamster]

Daysleeper,

Would you mind suggesting a better alternative, please, if you have one in mind?

[teeteringhead]

One recalls getting a trip on one of the Grey Funnel Line vessels when on some joint course or other. Set up the following exchange with a mate:

teeters: Hey mate! Where's the loo on this boat?

mate: Downstairs, up the front, on the left!

Was like an HM Bateman cartoon.:ok:

[jabberwok]

I also recently discovered that our erstwhile Q codes far predate their aeronautical adaption and were introduced in 1909.

I wonder how many aircraft have sent a QTC message (how many telegrams do you wish to sent)? :)

[Dr Jekyll]

Indeed so, but I guess the name came via the formations; ie - we'll call a bunch of aircraft a Squadron after horses, so best we call our majors Squadron Leaders - has to be better than Flight Lieutenant Commanders which would follow the navy logic!

Didn't the RNAS call their Lieutenant Commanders 'Squadron Commanders' or something similar?

[Daysleeper]

Frontlefthamster

I don't want to derail an otherwise interesting thread... but making all aircraft electronically conspicuous, even if only over the very short distances required for collision avoidance, is surely not beyond the wit of mankind. I also don't see the point in writing regulations which people can't (or physically struggle to) comply with, all it does is turn normal people into criminals and make money for lawyers. Anyhow I've said too much, back to nautical tradition... how bout women and children first during evacuations...ah.

[Groundloop]

but making all aircraft electronically conspicuous, even if only over the very short distances required for collision avoidance, is surely not beyond the wit of mankind.

It's been done. It's called TCAS. Not yet mandatory an all aircraft - but planned to be so with wider adoption of ADS-B.

[teeteringhead]

Didn't the RNAS call their Lieutenant Commanders 'Squadron Commanders' or something similar? ... going down a rank or two - ISTR that one of the RNAS WW1 VCs was gazetted as a "Flight Sub-Lieutenant", so maybe RNAS just added "Flight" in front of all ranks - or memory may be playing tricks (wouldn't be the first time .....:()

[royeddie]

The Q Code.
In February 1960 the cross-charter agreement was implemented whereby TAA lent 3 Viscounts to Ansett-ANA in exchange for 2 DC-6B's. Although TAA were an unwilling party to this "agreement" it is an ill wind that blows nobody good. As a very keen young ex-RAAF pilot, and now a TAA First Officer, with already several TAA types under my belt in 3 years, (DC-3, CV240 & DC-4) I was quite happy to convert to the 6B in September 1960. Flying with a Flight Engineer was an interesting change, and the regular Adelaide to Perth in the afternoon, (about 6 plus hours), and return the next morning PH-AD-ML was not exactly demanding. What was a worry though was the entry in the Ops Manual about receiving or transmitting cables/telegrams for passengers by morse to/from the Coastal Radio Stations. I therefore made damn sure that I could send QRS over and over again until they got down to my speed! Fortunately in my 3 years on 6's that never happened!