FAA licence in UK

[stiknruda]

I've held the US Airman's Cert a couple of times - the cardboard one issued at US FSDO's.

I understand that these are no longer legal-tender!

So a quick question - anyway/anyplace I can do a FAA PPL in the UK or is there some way I can get around this:

My issue - I've been asked to help a friend and take his N reg "Super-bug-smasher" to Italy for him at the end of summer 2012.


Thanks

Stik

[NazgulAir]

Hmmm...
the license is valid until revoked, but the piece of paper no longer counts as your license. Perhaps you can try renewing it? And then do a BFR.
It certainly seems unnecessary to retrain for the PPL...

Was it a standalone one? Then you can get a re[placement cert, which will be a plastic one.
If it was based on another license, you may have to go through the validation process, that will take time. Maybe longer than six months to complete, and include a trip to a FSDO.

[Whopity]

I replaced my paper one a few years ago and it involved the revalidation process plus a FSDO visit. OK if you are headed that way. Plus of course you need the companion FCC radio licence (http://transition.fcc.gov/Forms/Form1070/2006/1070y101706.pdf) and the English Proficiency endorsement.

The following link points to a permanent FAA Examiner based in the UK (http://ukga.com/airfield/old-buckenham/24384) so maybe there are now alternatives!

[stiknruda]

Thanks Whopity.

I'll call TH! I've actually positioned several a/c for him as favours over the years!

Stik

[M-ONGO]

Watch out for the Italians new tax!

[sapperkenno]

Stik... Do you have a "based-on" or a standalone certificate?

Paper Pilot Certificates Expire March 31, 2010 (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/expiring_paper_certificates/) Should help you out for the time being.

If you have the FAR61.75 issued one, based on your UK Licence, and wanted a standalone one, you'd need to have a look here; Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8af3297c02cb3de4437f4a70c566bc2e&rgn=div6&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.5&idno=14)

There's a bit more to it, but essentially;
i, Get a FAA Third Class medical, which will then act as a student pilot certificate.
ii, Do the written test - I think there's a center at Farnborough.
iii, Get the relevant endorsements from a FAA CFI or similar showing you meet the requirements - see link above.
iv, Get familiar with the Private Pilot PTS, as there a few manoeuvres you may not have come across.
v, Contact the DPE fella previously mentioned for the Practical Test.

I'm an FAA CFI/II, and will shortly be undertaking a JAA SEP CRI rating course, so this is all very interesting to me.

I know there are some TSA requirements for undertaking Private Pilot training, but I don't know for sure if these only apply to people doing this inside the US. That might be something to ask the DPE, as it involves giving them some money and having your fingerprints taken etc.

Hope you get sorted!

[NazgulAir]

but I don't know for sure if these only apply to people doing this inside the US.
No, the TSA stuff is required for training outside the USA also. However, it is only needed for training for a new license or rating, and it is not needed for recurrent training or revalidating lapsed licenses.

[Gomrath]

No, the TSA stuff is required for training outside the USA also. However, it is only needed for training for a new license or rating, and it is not needed for recurrent training or revalidating lapsed licenses.
It is required for anybody currently holding a FAR 61.75 (which is what this thread seems to be about) who then wishes to get a full unrestricted FAA certificated because a FAA 61.75 is not considered the 'first issue of a FAA cert'.

Also in addition to what sapperkenno states, remember the requirement for the 3 hours training requirement within 60 days of taking the PTS with a FAA Authorized Instructor as per 61.109(4).
Basically the requirements are documented in FAR 61.107 and 109 for the Private requirements and 61.127 and 129 for Commercial.

[peterh337]

the TSA stuff is required for training outside the USA also

Who decides whether a particular flight outside the USA is affected?

[Gomrath]

Who decides whether a particular flight outside the USA is affected?

TSA states:
Persons seeking flight training must submit a request if they are not citizens or nationals of the U.S. and:

They wish to receive flight training in the U.S. or its territories, regardless of whether training will lead to an FAA certificate or type rating; and/or
They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad.

At some point the individual has to do some time with an FAA Authorized Instructor and so would need TSA approval prior to that point.

[mad_jock]

You don't actually need a FAA cert to fly a N reg just permission of the states you are flying over to fly with the license you have got. Which if you have JAR won't be an issue.

The only time you actually need a FAA ticket to fly a N reg is in US airspace the rest of the time they really don't care who flys them even commercially you should see some of the right tulips that are flying them in some regions with cornflack packet licences under a supposed FAR 91 operation . If you pick up an N reg to ferry you pick it up in Canada then crack on after sending a few emails it really is no hassel. And its not emails to the FAA its the states you will over fly. Just ask there permission to fly a N reg with a JAR license in there airspace and you will get a yes with no charge.

[englishal]

Actually it will be an issue as the FAA say you can fly an N reg using a foreign licence in the airspace that owns the foreign licence. Unfortunately the FAA does not recognise "JAA" airspace and so you would be limited to the airspace of whoever issued the JAA licence (Uk for example).

The FAA chief consul did an interpretation of this exact scenario and I'm afraid it is not allowed.

[mad_jock]

O well not that its going to stop dodgy operators.

[peterh337]

They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad.

That is nonsense, if you think about it.

Whether you need TSA approval for flight training outside the USA is hugely open to debate.

Let's say you do a 300nm flight, solo, with 3 separate landings, in a G-reg aeroplane rented from a UK school, around the UK.

5 years later you can use that towards an FAA CPL.
Or towards a Mongolian ICAO CPL, no doubt.
Probably towards a JAA CPL too, if it wasn't for the FTO-only restrictive practices.

Do you need TSA approval for that flight?

Let's say you do a 300nm flight, with a UK IRI in the RHS, under the hood, with 3 approaches or whatever, in a G-reg aeroplane rented from a UK school, from say Prague to say Bournemouth.

5 years later you can use that towards an FAA IR.
Or towards a Mongolian ICAO IR, no doubt.
Probably towards a JAA IR too, if it wasn't for the FTO-only restrictive practices.

Do you need TSA approval for that flight?

I know of people who say YES http://forums.flyer.co.uk/images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif http://forums.flyer.co.uk/images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif http://forums.flyer.co.uk/images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif

You get my drift?

The FAA is generous (actually they are just ICAO compliant but over here we are used to blatent European restrictive practices so we think this is generous) in accepting non-US training, and it is obvious that this doesn't need TSA approval, unless it is done under the most extremely "unfavourable" circumstances. I can't imagine what those might be, but perhaps if the FAA set up a school in the UK for FAA certificates, staffed with FAA instructors, then TSA would be "obviously" needed.

When you do a flight, you log the time, and if you were PU/T then you log it accordingly. In a UK-style logbook you put the instructor's name as PIC. Smart people get the instructor to sign every line with his sig and his CAA or FAA number. You don't put in there "this flight was towards an FAA IR"; that would be just nonsense. You might call it a "X/C flight" and log the approaches in there. All that is just normal practice which validates the logbook entries (which could just be parker pen jobs.... hey this never happens does it http://forums.flyer.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif ) and if you are doing regular training it protects you against the possibility of your training record getting lost or being disputed. Even in a UK FTO I would get every line thus signed.

At some point the individual has to do some time with an FAA Authorized Instructor and so would need TSA approval prior to that point.

Only if those 3 hours are classed as "training".

Which if you have JAR won't be an issue.

That is completely wrong, MJ. You need a license issued by the owner of the airspace. JAA is just a mutual validation system. I have the references somewhere in here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc-privileges/index.html). The FAA chief counsel has ruled on this at least twice.

not that its going to stop dodgy operators.

Well, anybody can fly a plane without any pilot license. They just need to know how to fly, and the general protocol on the radio etc. Not sure what you are trying to say there.

[Gomrath]

Only if those 3 hours are classed as "training".
No you need 20 hours of Flight Training with a FAA Authorized Instructor of which 3 hours training is required within 2 calendar months too approve the signoff for the PTS.
Go check FAR 61.109(4), where it states:

3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test
If the TSA has not been approved at that time the Instructor and his/her Shool may suffer the wrath of the TSA - maybe not initially but within a year when the TSA stop by to do their audit.

Also there is the long standing debate over the rule of requiring 20 hours of training from an FAA Authorized Instructor.
Now an FAA Authorized Instructor is clearly defined in FAR 61.1(2) which states "a person who holds a current Flight Instructor certificate issued under Part 61" etc.

I know that this has been raised in the past regarding what a foreign ICAO instructor can and cannot do as defined in 61.41.
I do not know if this particular question has ever been challenged with FAA Legal Counsel as to clarifying the definition in 61.1 versus 61.41 and what is stated in 61.109 in regards to the mandatory 20 hours with an FAA Authorized Instructor.
That's a topic for another day.

[peterh337]

No you need 20 hours of Flight Training with a FAA Authorized InstructorNo; it can be any instructor "authorised" to do the training - if outside the USA.

This is an old chestnut, done to death.

Has the definition for training done outside the USA, which the FAA does accept, changed, to specifically say the instructor must be an FAA CFI/CFII?

I know that this has been raised in the past regarding what a foreign ICAO instructor can and cannot do as defined in 61.41. Indeed it has been.

I do not know if this particular question has ever been challenged with FAA Legal Counsel as to clarifying the definition in 61.1 versus 61.41 and what is stated in 61.109 in regards to the mandatory 20 hours with an FAA Authorized Instructor. Indeed. I haven't seen such a ruling. It would incidentally make a total mockery of the totally established acceptance by the FAA of foreign (ICAO) pilot training.

It would raise other intractable issues too e.g. you do a 300nm x/c flight under IFR, 3 different approaches, etc, with an instructor who is an FAA CFII and who is also a JAA IRI. Person A can say the flight is towards a JAA IR. (There are loads of such dual-rated instructors - not least because you need a JAA CPL to get paid for any training in Euro airspace). Person B can equally say the flight is towards an FAA IR (and "thus needs" TSA approval). It's a complete bollox, a travesty of logic, of common sense, not to mention enforceability :ugh:

I am hesitant to write more on this, because I've been the victim of some pretty extreme attacks from vested interests and their associates. But I am posting this because it would be a disservice to other pilots to leave it as-is. There is enough FUD sloshing around in this department already.

[Gomrath]

No; it can be any instructor "authorised" to do the training - if outside the USA.
Stated where? 61.41 does not state that such a person qualifies to be called an FAA "Authorized Instructor" in accordance with FAR 61.1(2).


Has the definition for training done outside the USA, which the FAA does accept, changed, to specifically say the instructor must be an FAA CFI/CFII?
Again, the relevant regs are 61.1(2) which gives the definition of the term "Authorized Instructor" which is later used as the term in the subsequent regs.

61.41(b) only refers to a foreign instructor making entries to show training given. It does not state that person qualifies as a FAA "Authorized Instructor".

61.109 states that 40 hours of flight time is required of which 20 hours must be with an FAA "Authorized Instructor". Thereby suggesting that hours outside of those 20 can be done elsewhere. A foreign instructor cannot sign of a student for a FAA PTS which is the purpose of the final 3 hours from the total of 20.

So reading between the lines would suggest that some hours can be done with a foreign instructor but at least 20 must be with an FAA "Authorized Instructor" (as defined in 61.1(2) ) including the final 3 hours required to be approved for PTS - solely based on what is written.

Like I said a FAA Legal Counsel clarification is what is really needed and so far I have not found one.
It is an interesting topic and open for interpretation based on which side of the fence you are standing.

Maybe B2N2 has some experience of this.

[peterh337]

61.41 does not state that such a person qualifies to be called an FAA "Authorized Instructor" in accordance with FAR 61.1(2).

It doesn't have to say. Everything not expressly prohibited is permitted.

So reading between the lines

Indeed.

The reality is that thousands of people have done FAA licenses and rating, using previous training, without it ever having been questioned.

An extremely common example is all those people doing standalone FAA PPLs. You turn up with a logbook full of non US training (none of it having been done with an FAA instructor of any kind), the DPE checks you have 40hrs TT (which of course you have by then), you fly 3hrs with an FAA CFI to get the signoff, and you do the checkride.

[englishal]

Sec. 61.41

Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either--
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

Which to me says that it is only 3 hrs that is REQUIRED to be conducted by the FAA CFII as the foreign FI can't do the "ready for test" endorsement but can endorse that required training has been given.

[peterh337]

Yes; though the argument about who can fly the last 3hrs with you is moot because in practice nobody will sign you off unless they have flown with you.

This stuff has been in de facto acceptance for many more years than I have been flying. Non US training has always been accepted by the FAA without the foreign instructors' FAA or non FAA papers ever having been questioned.

In most real-world instances it is again moot however. Take the FAA IR. It requires 15hrs of dual time. It is very unlikely that anybody will be ready for the pretty tough FAA IR checkride in less than that, and since most people do that (or the last stages) in the USA, they do those 15hrs, plus whatever training is needed, with an FAA instructor anyway.