A Few Questions about Private Flying

[Sean88]

Hi there,

I'm about to start on the path to achieve a JAA PPL license. Before starting though I wanted to make sure I'm realistic in what could be achieved. I prefer advice on forums to companies because the feedback is always varied and mostly impartial.

> Ultimately I want to be able to fly to different destinations in Europe. How long would it take to fly say Paris from Manchester? How much would the fuel cost? How long would it take to plan the route? Is it straightforward to access their airspace? How many miles of fuel would I have with the typical aircraft you can fly with a ppl license?
> If it costs around £240 / hour to hire an aircraft, how would you stay at your destination for any period of time without it costing the earth. Is there anything like hire cars where you can drop them back at any Hertz etc?
> Is there anything else that is very important to know before I start?

Thanks,

[proudprivate]

> Ultimately I want to be able to fly to different destinations in Europe. How long would it take to fly say Paris from Manchester?
Assuming you fly at 125 mph, it would take just under 4 hours.

How much would the fuel cost?
Assuming you are burning 10 US gallons per hour, you would use just under 145 litres, @ £ 1.80 per litre gives just over £250.

How long would it take to plan the route?
With the right software package, a couple of minutes. With your protractor and maps and pages of notams, the better part of a day.

Is it straightforward to access their airspace?
If you have filed a flight plan and stick to the rules, yes.

How many miles of fuel would I have with the typical aircraft you can fly with a ppl license?
That strongly varies. Assuming a single engine 4 seater with 48 usable gallons, operated at an economy power setting, about 4 hours + 45 minutes reserve should be possible. Again assuming 125 mph (but that depends on wind conditions), your action radius would be 500 miles plus reserve.
But there are aircraft out there with long range tanks that can be flown with a PPL license at relatively high altitude which would give you a range of 1000 miles+

> If it costs around £240 / hour to hire an aircraft, how would you stay at your destination for any period of time without it costing the earth.
That price is most probably a "wet rental", which means you pay per FLIGHT hour (use of Avgas included), not for the hours on the ground. The rental company would offer you a price per flight hour and another fee per day that you have the aircraft out for an overnight stay.
Also, prices for aircraft rentals vary hugely. £240 / hour sounds already upmarketisch. Maybe for a 6-seater or a faster 4-seater.

Is there anything like hire cars where you can drop them back at any Hertz etc?
Not in the PPL-type standard range of aircraft. Can you imagine what the "drop off charges" would be ?

> Is there anything else that is very important to know before I start?
Yep :
1. Can you afford a hobby that will take up most of your spare time and will cost you around £ 10,000 per annum on average ?
2. Are you medically fit, i.e. would you pass all medical requirements for the level of aviation that you ultimately want to achieve (from what you are telling me, travelling around Europe, you would need a PPL + Instrument Rating, which requires a Class 2 medical + no hearing problems)

Good luck,

PP.

[Lagentium]

£240 seems a bit steep mate, or would you not be learning in the standard PA28 etc? Have you got your eyes on anywhere to learn?


Cheers, Jim :ok:

[BossEyed]

Good advice from proudprivate, although I'd question this:

1. Can you afford a hobby that will take up most of your spare time and will cost you around £ 10,000 per annum on average ?

You can have a lot of fun, and get in a good number of hours flying, for a lot less than this - very low 4 figures is perfectly achievable. Google "Light Aircraft Association", and consider whether purchasing a share on a private strip would meet your post-PPL wants.

[Heston]

Yeah it depends what you mean by "ultimately" you want to fly to European destinations. If you mean straight after you get your licence then £10k pa is realistic, but loads of people dont spend anything like that by being more modest in what they fly - LAA types or microlights for example. You can fly a top of the range microlight round Europe, but its a strictly VFR good weather machine.

So it all depends on your motivation - what you are going to get most value from

Heston

[n5296s]

From my own experience (which is in the US, where long-distance flight is a lot easier than in Europe) I have come to the conclusion that flying is a great hobby, as long as you don't confuse it with a means of transportation.

If you want to learn to fly SO THAT you can take yourself to various different destinations around Europe, just stick to Ryanair/Easyjet/etc. It'll cost you WAY less money and you won't end up as a statistic because you absolutely had to be back at work on Monday even though the weather didn't look too good.

Of course sometimes you CAN do these kinds of trips and they are hugely enjoyable. But you can rarely count on it - especially with the weather in the northerly half of Europe. An IR is essential but even then, unless you have serious $$$ (or the local equivalent) ice will still keep you on the ground.

Learn to fly for the fun, challenge and reward of flying, then regard the occasional long distance trip as yet another bonus.

[172driver]

Long-distance touring in single-engine airplanes is absolutely doable. I have done quite a few great trips in Europe, the US, Africa and Australia. All VFR.

That said, the further North you go, the trickier this gets. Weather being only one of the factors, especially in the UK the combo of weather and very restrictive airspace can put more than one spanner in the works.

IMHO, in northern Europe, any single-engine a/c should be considered a great way to travel - as long as you don't depend on it. Other than a short window in summer (and even that is dubious in the UK) you cannot rely on your machine to get you there - and back on the date / at the time you want it.

In short, to answer your Q:
Travel around Europe? Yes, definitely. As long as you are aware of the limitations.

In any case, good luck with your PPL and enjoy :ok:

[NazgulAir]

Flying can be cheap if you carry no more than two people and always operate under VMC in your own permit aircraft. Operating it from an unlicensed grass field makes it cheaper still.

We operate at the other end, for about five to ten times the cost per flying hour, a hundred hours per year in a complex aircraft that is fast, well equipped, has a long range and 4+2 seats. Even with an IR and all this capability weather circumstances often interfere with our plans.

n5296s is right in that a private aircraft is no substitute for an airline. Not if you don't have the freedom to wait until conditions are favourable, and the means to entertain your guests during what could well be a very long and boring wait.
But you can still do trips, of course. I've enjoyed many vacations flying around Europe. Just so long as you avoid the risks of absolutely needing to get from A to B at time X, there's nothing wrong with private flying.

[AdamFrisch]

Obviously all hindrances can be overcome by throwing money at it. So when you get the IR you can fly in bad weather and get great dispatch rates. Now you need a bad weather machine with de-icing etc and probably two engines. All of a sudden you're in the £100-200K range and an easy £15K or more in upkeep a year. But it's doable.

[Croqueteer]

:sad:N5296s says it all.

[Whopity]

Time to Spare; Go by Air!

[Sean88]

Thanks for all your posts, I didn't realise I had replies or I would have commented sooner. In fact, since that post I've moved on slightly about european travel and posted a new thread.

But in response to some of what you said, I don't want to replace what I use Rynair etc for, it's definitely for the fun of it.

I appreciate the advice about weather and leaving plenty of time, I didn't realise it was so weather dependent.

The cost is obviously large. I can afford the cost of frequent flying at my local airfield, and anything extra would be a treat / bonus / replace my current summer holidays.

Thanks again

[Fuji Abound]

It has sort of been said but I would add with regards to weather and despatch rates -

as a novice we often base our perception on the despatch rates of commercial aircraft - pretty much as good as 100% (well ignoring the usual excuses about slots and aircraft out of place).

The reality is that light aircraft and their pilots are far more weather sensitive. The reality is that without an instrument rating (true of most private pilots) long distance flights in the winter will suffer from a very poor dispatch rate and there may well be days in a row when it would not be sensible to fly. The dispatch rate improves considerably with an instrument rating BUT delays of more than a day are still likely. Summer of course brings better weather but again without an IR there maybe several days when flight is not possible.

In addition it is rare for clubs and schools to allow rental aircraft to go "away" for an unspecified period of time (almost always necessary unless you can "guarantee" a same day return) and they are rarely de-iced which has draw backs for predictable winter flying even with an IR.

So in short, and sadly to be realistic, light aircraft are far from a guaranteed way of traveling any distance unless you are willing to make a substantial committment to training and purchasing your own aircraft (or share). Its just the way it is and it would be wrong to think otherwise.

On the other hand if you are happy to fit in with the weather, be very flexible and buy into a group then trips around Europe are realtively straight forward and very enjoyable.

[Sean88]

Well at the least the final paragraph gave me some hope!

[Jan Olieslagers]

Unless I missed something, there was no indication of the size of the party? For flying alone, or two light people with little or no luggage, a microlight is doable. Though most are either as expensive as a "real" aircraft, or too slow for decent touring. The upcoming ELSA would be better still, but will apparently have none of the advantages of a microlight.

PPL with IR will be the only way to really go travelling, to use a plane as a more or less dependable way to go places. The cost will be high, though, on all points. At the other end of the scale is microlighting, relatively inexpensive but VERY weather dependent.

[NazgulAir]

Unless I missed something, there was no indication of the size of the party?
OP mentioned a C172 and three passengers...

[Genghis the Engineer]

A C172 with pilot and 3 adult passengers, loaded legally, will just about make it to the next airfield down the road - say 10 miles.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Sean88 - I am glad.

Maybe it would be helpful to give you an idea of the typical progress of a keen PPL.

Obviously you gain a PPL. In the first few months you do as many short flights as possible - perhaps typically between an hour or two in each direction and going to different places. During this period you may gradually take on weather that is a little more challenging, more complicated routes and experience a range of approaches and landings. You are learning all the time. You are learning that the weather can change and is not always as forecast. You may start to learn that what seemed like good VFR conditions require you to weave, dodge and make it up as you go, either to get to your destination, divert or get home.

Undoubtedly you will "take on" some approaches that appear more challenging - the cross wind is a bit stronger than you expected, the runway a little shorter than you have seen before, the controller a lit more "irritating" - you get the idea, all the time you are widening your experience.

With luck you will join a good group or make some friends at your club; you will do some flights with more expereinced pilots and probably learn more from then that you might imagine about flying in the real "world". Depending where you are a trip to France will beckon maybe after a month or two but hopefully at least within the first six months. Typically it will be L2K and why not - it is a superb destination. That first flight across the channel will be a thrill - yes the engine will know it is over water and will run rough - and yes the haze over the sea may be unnerving and you may be glad of your limited instrument training.

With luck you have got the bug - you will have a much better idea what you are comfortable with, you will have developed some of the skill sets to deal with all the little things that can get thrown at you on longer flights and you will be making sound decisions.

You will remember me saying that the vast majority of PPLs have given up by now or will in the next few years, having never left the local "cabbage patch" and never felt really comfortable taking on longer trips.

Flying isnt complicated and I hope I am not making it seem complicated but like anything in life there are plenty of experiences that will be new. In one major respect it is different however - it is a very unforgiving enviroment. Its obvious I know but you cant stop, things will continue to happen whether you like it or not and you must whatever else stay ahead of the game. Some cope well and learn quickly for others it takes a bit longer. You will scare yourself if you are serious about your flying at some point, and you will realise how unforgiving it can be. You will also realise that you literally have your passengers life in your hands, much more so that might ever seem the case driving a car - I dont entirely know why, but that is the way it is.

Eventually if you stick at it you can go pretty much go any where you like, when you like and most of the time it is a great deal more relaxing than drving a car. It is always a lot of fun, and you will never be bored.

I hope that helps?

[NazgulAir]

Just like S88 appears to do, I wanted to do "holiday trips" with my PPL from the word go.

After getting my PPL at 56hrs and pottering about for a few hours more, it was time for my big summer vacation flying trip. I found a private owner with an underused plane, got checked out, bought a block of hours and flew away. I had just 77 hours TT.

Two weeks, five countries and 22 flight hours later, I returned a different pilot. You never know what it is like to be "the sole operator responsible" until you have been at some small airstrip away from all support and have to make decisions. It is one thing to read about it and prepare yourself for it, it's quite another thing to experience it. It's a challenge for a low-time pilot, but very doable and a wonderful milestone in a flying career.

People who stay under the wings of their flight organisation may never have to refuel, top up oil, remove birds nests from under the cowling, inflate soft tyres, or do a hundred other little things that go with owning an aircraft.
When you're away on your trip you have the keys, there is no one who tells you that this is not a good day for flying, no one who will check up on you doing the right thing. Going away on a trip is a fledgling chick venturing away from mother's wings, an important step in taking full responsibility for your flying. When you are ready, go for it!

[Jan Olieslagers]

OP mentioned a C172 and three passengers... ... cunningly hidden in a separate thread. That's to confuse the enemy, I suppose.

On top of that, the actual wording is "Total three passengers" which I wonder might mean "Total three persons on board" or iow "pilot and two passengers" to most of us. Can't confuse them too much, the silly blighters!

Don't think I'll try any more.

[Sean88]

Fuji Bound,

Is L2K, Le Touqeut in France? Googled it but couldn't find anything. That comment helped a great deal, it's what I joined and posted on the forum for, so thank you.

Nazgul,

Very inspiring, although I'm not sure I'd be so adventurous for a long time yet.


Thanks for the feedback guys. I posted a 2nd more specific thread, but all my questions have been answered and I'm definitely going full team ahead with my PPL.

[S-Works]

A C172 with pilot and 3 adult passengers, loaded legally, will just about make it to the next airfield down the road - say 10 miles.

G

Very sweeping and incorrect..... ;)

My 172 will carry pilot and 3 pax, loaded completely legally for 5 hours at 128kts........

[Jan Olieslagers]

Is L2K, Le Touqeut in France? Actually Le Touquet but LFAT will do too. Yes, we love to be mysterious, it is SO nice to use acronyms and abbreviations and codes only known to the happy few. Welcome!

[Fuji Abound]

Yeah but bose yours is hardly a normal 172 in fact i have heard said better than a tb20, jan hardly an acronym say slowly l ..... 2 ....... K its not difficult or clever just phoenetics. ;)

[S-Works]

My Cessna could never compete with the continent crossing airliner capabilities of the TB20. I understand they are considering adapting a TB20 for the mission to mars project.....

The Cessna does do rather well at flying to GA airfields for lunch and a pee though..... And it can even be handflown and used for IFR.... :p

[Genghis the Engineer]

I just looked up the Post Flight Report for a C172P I did an air test on last month.

I put down that with just me (180lb) and full fuel, I was at 1864lb, which was 81% MTOW - MTOW 2300lb I believe.

So, add in another 3 medium sized adults I'd have to lose 17 gallons of fuel to be on MTOW, which would give me 26 gallons of fuel. Allow 9 gallons an hour, and assume landing with an hour's fuel, that gives me about 1:50 airborne time.

Okay, my 10 miles comment was a bit pessimistic. You'd manage around 200 miles.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Genghis - are all engineers fat? ;)

Bose - dont you pee in flight or have you got a big bladder?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Slightly overweight, I'm assured. And big boned.

Something that probably applies to a very large proportion of adults these days! How slightly of-course, varies.

G

[AN2 Driver]

Fuji, many of us are "big boned" or just not the "standard" adult imagined with most 4 seat designs which, in reality, are 2-3 seaters unless one talks parents with kids.

Realistically speaking, a "true" 4 seater would require a payload of around 400 kgs plus the fuel necessary for the trip. Not many airplanes I know do that. 400 kgs, that is a standard IATA adult plus his bags times 4.

That means, the typical 50 USG aircraft would need to have a total payload (Empty to MTOW) of around 550 kgs.

The "average" family of four, if calculated conservatively, will be less. Again, 2 standard adults with bags (200 kgs) plus 2 kids with bags (around 60 kgs each) will demand a payload of around 320 kgs plus fuel.

As to the protests of some lady passengers or pilot that they do not fit the description of a 100 kg adult, thank you very much, I fully agree, but take into account their baggage and many do. Apart, many think of a GA plane as their own airbound sedan, what fits comes along.

[S-Works]

Okay, my 10 miles comment was a bit pessimistic. You'd manage around 200 miles.

In a P maybe. Like I said your statement was inaccurate and sweeping and thus incorrect...... ;)

Bose - dont you pee in flight or have you got a big bladder?

Neither, I am a firm believer that GA is about visiting places and plan my legs in accordance with bladder rather than aircraft range. If I want to fly a very long way in one hit I will jump on an airliner and have a G&T on the way..... :p

But whatever floats your boat!!

[peterh337]

I can't right now think of anything more dim than limiting one's range by the need to have a pee somewhere on the ground.

[S-Works]

I can't right now think of anything more dim than limiting one's range by the need to have a pee somewhere on the ground.

Some of us can't think of anything as dim as peeing in a bottle, especially in front of passengers..... Must be performance anxiety.... :p:p

But hey, like I said whatever floats your boat. I guess you Brighton boys are a bit more 'relaxed' in company....... ;)

[Fuji Abound]

Bose-x

[YOUTUBE]Men making each other pee - funniest commercial - YouTube

this is the way things are done in Brighton - seems fair enough to me ;)

Perhaps you might like to feature in the four men in a Cessna version?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I just looked up the Post Flight Report for a C172P I did an air test on last month.

I put down that with just me (180lb) and full fuel, I was at 1864lb, which was 81% MTOW - MTOW 2300lb I believe.

So, add in another 3 medium sized adults I'd have to lose 17 gallons of fuel to be on MTOW, which would give me 26 gallons of fuel. Allow 9 gallons an hour, and assume landing with an hour's fuel, that gives me about 1:50 airborne time.

Okay, my 10 miles comment was a bit pessimistic. You'd manage around 200 miles.

G

At the risk of being pedantic the C172P has a MGTOW of 2400 lbs, not 2300 lbs like the earlier marks. The extra 100 pounds will return 16.5 USG of the 17 gals you said you needed to offload. However that is the weight the aircraft must be at at the moment of takeoff.

The POH specifies that 1.1 gallons will be used for start/taxi and runup so you can add the last .5 gal to full (standard) tanks and have 3.5 pounds to spare for inflight snacks during your 3+45 flight :ok: