CRP-5 a requirement for PPL?

[Rapattack]

Hi guys

Just want to hear whether the CRP-5 Flight computer is a requirement for the PPL exams or not?

I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex :sad:

I just wonder if my school expects me to know this instrument well, just before my exams? I had expected to have some kind of instruction in it?

Best Regard

[CraigJL]

It is indeed an archaic tool which is redundant given the multitude of alternatives. The 'calculation' side is much more easily performed with a calculator and a list of conversion factors - far simpler, and more accurate than using the CRP-5. The 'wind' side is less complicated, but again there are electronic alternatives (or even iPhone apps) which will do the job.

The FAA permit certain electronic flight computers for the PPL exams.

You ARE allowed a non-programmable calculator for the PPL exams in the UK, but especially for navigation, you won't be able to use that alone to complete the exam successfully. For the actual exams, you may find it useful to use the CRP-5. In day-to-day flying, there are far better ways of doing the same job.

I for one cannot understand why the CAA are so reluctant to move ahead with the times and adopt and embrace new technology. The old line about the 'batteries failing' really is weak.

[peterh337]

I don't think the circular slide rule is mandatory anymore in the PPL.

I think that stopped a few years ago.

It is certainly not mandatory for the JAA IR now.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That or something similar, yes.

And it's really not that complex - a generation ago, most people learned to use a linear slide rule at about age 11 - this is just a circular slide rule, or the same thing wrapped around a circle. Persevere and you'll realise that it's actually quite a useful and flexible planning tool, if not the only (or in the 21st centure, the best) way to do it.

G

[S-Works]

It has never actually been mandatory, it is just that you are not allowed programmable electronic devices. So you have to do the calcs manually. None of the conversions in the exams requires a whizz wheel and the wind calcs are just basic trig.

However the whizz wheel is not difficult to use and your instructor should be showing you how to use it.

There are a number of interactive CD Rom based tools and online web tools that will easily show you how to use the whizz wheel.

Maybe one day the CAA will wake up and smell the coffee and realise that the reason student numbers are dropping is the Nintendo generation are not interested in archaic slide rules. Then maybe they will allow the use of electronic E6B computers. But in the meantime, chin up and get on with it!!

[peterh337]

It may not have been "mandatory" (which kind of ties in with there not being any mandatory ground school anyway, in the PPL) but it was de facto mandatory because the nav exam had questions whose options were carefully drafted to draw in common slide rule errors where you get the answer 1 or 2 degrees out by doing the extra iterative step the wrong way, etc.

If you used a different rule, e.g. the Jepp CR-5, you could get different results because AFAICT the procedure is slightly different (there is no sliding portion). I did actually learn the CR-5 wind calcs recently but instantly forgot.

The fact that not even a £50000 slaved compass + autopilot system cannot fly that accurately is something else..........

Whether the exams have been revised to allow somebody with a trig calculator using the answer which is actually exactly correct, I don't know.

I am afraid the damage to GA as a credible leisure activity for intelligent modern individuals has been done long ago. It was well ongoing when I started in 2000. Only the most obscessive people got on with it and stuck in there. A disgrace.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Bose-X: I suppose this argument has been done over and again, but I for one will not grumble at any way of keeping the Nintendo generation out of the skies. That is to say, as long as they think the Nintendo way.

[achimha]

If you remember a few conversion factors and the sine law for wind calculations ( TAS / sin(WA) = WS / sin(WCA) = GS / sin(WA-WCA) ), then you're all set.

IAS/TAS calculations are not part of PPL or IR but rules of thumb should be sufficient in case it pop up.

[Whopity]

Whether the exams have been revised to allow somebody with a trig calculator using the answer which is actually exactly correct, I don't know.No they haven't, they are based upon the use of the simplest methods available which could involve a protractor ruler and pencil or a handheld calculator.

[Heston]

Whiz wheel equals best learning tool...

I find that the experieced pilots who don't understand why the whiz wheel is still used at ab-initio training stage have mostly forgotten how much they know and dont realise how difficult it can be for students to see what is happening. I mean they can safely do nav calcs using whatever app they want. But learners must develop an understanding of how the wind affects their flight and the triangle of velocities and the whiz wheel are a superb visual tool for learning that and developing the ability to read the big picture.

Without the feel for things there is too much likelyhood of making an error inputting data to the calculator and not spotting that the answer is rubbish.

The UK PPL exams ensure that the student has understood enough to have developed that ability to see the picture - they can ditch the whiz wheel after the exam if they want to.

Heston

[S-Works]

@Bose-X: I suppose this argument has been done over and again, but I for one will not grumble at any way of keeping the Nintendo generation out of the skies. That is to say, as long as they think the Nintendo way.

Then enjoy being the last of a generation. I suspect that you would be happy with a cart and horse as well?

My children are not interested in learning to fly despite having it on a plate. They see it as full of boring old people and silly 'historical' slide rules. There friends are the same. The Nintendo generation or no less smart or safe than the slide rule operators, they just understand things in a different way. It's evolution. Could you imagine lighting your house with a gas lamp....

If we are to attract new blood then we have to adapt to the times I am afraid.

[abgd]

I bought myself a CRP2 on ebay, then felt a bit of a wally when I turned up and everybody else had a CRP1. The CRP2 does things like calculating aircraft skin temperature rises and compressibility for speeds approaching mach-1. Assuming that a CRP-3 is more complex again, I imagine an CRP-5 lets you fly the space shuttle?

I quite like the things in concept, but I tend to agree with Peter that they're a bit of an anachronism. Of course, 11-year-olds can use them, but then they had at least 6 years of practice before they could get their PPLs so I imagine the concept came naturally to them by then. Sure, they don't need batteries. But they do need a degree of familiarity to use quickly and correctly. There are silly mistakes I've made on a whizz-wheel like getting the dividend/divisor back to front, that I simply wouldn't make on an electronic calculator, so it goes both ways.

My other gripe is that the ergonomics of mine are so poor. The wind-wheel's fairly stiff and some teeth on it would make it easier to turn. My impression is that it's really an 'exam' instrument rather than something that was even intended to be used as a practical, everyday instrument.

Didn't yours come with a booklet to tell you how to use it? Mine came with a booklet for the CRP 1 which I'd recommend.

[Rory Dixon]

In 2005, the programmed electronic CX-2 flight computer was perfetcly legal (and standard) for the JAR PPL exams in Germany (but not for CPL or ATPL theory). So I guess, the replies are mainly UK specific.
Where do you want to do your PPL? In Spain? Why don't you just ask the flight school, they should know.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Rapattack,

IIRC, the CRP-5 I had came with a small information 'book', only about 20-30 pages long and no bigger than an iPhone.

A couple of nights reading that before bed is enough to get a real grip on it. Pick it up a few times a day and practice the exercises that are in there, it's surprisingly easy to learn what looks initially like a complex bit of kit.

:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just as an aside, I did my CPL a few years ago - which is basically a PPL on steroids. For that I bought an Aviat-617 which makes the CRP-5 look basic, and would have cost a fortune if I hadn't got lucky on eBay. (Working a lot professionally in flight mechanics, it lives in my briefcase and I use a CRP-1W for everyday flight planning, which is perfect for that and would also be perfect for any PPL).

But once in a while, I couldn't get a trustworthy answer out of even the Aviat in an exam - so I just got my ruler and protractor and drew a wind triangle. Slightly slower, but incredibly accurate and works every time. And permissible in all PPL and CPL exams.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

a generation ago, most people learned to use a linear slide rule at about age 11
And indeed at that age I had a circular slide rule (I wonder which box it's in now?).

[Heston]

And just to emphasise what I said earlier - the advantage of slide rules and whiz wheels is that you can SEE why the answer is what it is.
(if you can't see, or don't understand what I mean, then you haven't been taught properly)

Heston

[Grob Queen]

Just want to hear whether the CRP-5 Flight computer is a requirement for the PPL exams or not?

I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex

The answer to the above is YES. I have just been speaking with my instructor on that very subject of Whizz wheels, as I was practising some Nav questions and to be honest it was much easier to do the calculations in my head than faff with the Whizzwheel (and I am someone who finds maths a REAL struggle). I asked him whether the Whizz wheel was necessary and he said, yes, in the exam they expect you to use it, but he will prefer me to use my head in the air and does not want to see me with my head buried in the whizz wheel and not aviating!!!

I think the CAA rules are not exactly the most practical on nav, as the military way is much better....but hey, learning both is fine... makes sure we can nav all ways round!

Ref training to use the Whizz wheel. Mine has come with an instruction booklet, I also have Jeremy Pratts book and the best thing of all...ask your instructor as I do...I am sure he/she will not mind helping you out?!

[caber0]

I must admit that I really like the Whizzwheel. It does require that you have a good feeling for the answer including working out the place of the decimal point. This certainly sharpens up mental arithmetic which does really seem to be a problem for the computer generation. I also like the wind side as it does help visualise the issues relating to wind speed and direction.

My impression in general is that GA is stuck in a bit of a timewarp. The majority of the aircraft we fly were designed in the 1950s and run with engines designed in the 1930s and 1940s Admittedly there have been massive changes in avionics and we can take benefit from some of these even in the oldest spamcans using stand alone GPS for example.

I would like to see some teaching of GPS in the PPL syllabus however I think that the whizzwheel should remain. As I mentioned there is a woeful lack of mental arithmetic among the younger generation and learning the whizzwheel really helps sharpen those skills.

Caber:hmm:

[4_blues]

If we are to attract new blood then we have to adapt to the times I am afraid.
I agree entirely!

[tmmorris]

I love my whizz wheel and have only recently started using anything else after 10 years of flying - Skydemon Light, in my case. And I have a circular and cylindrical slide rule (the latter is basically a mammoth straight slide rule wrapped around a cylinder and is very accurate), although I belong to the first generation at school to be given electronic calculators instead. (My teacher actually handed out slide rules then collected them back in as the syllabus had changed!)

On the other hand we do need to move with the times. I'd be happy to see use of electronic calculators/E6b in exams, but I'd like to see mandatory mental arithmetic as well. On my first BFR after getting my piggyback US licence, my grey-haired instructor was appalled to discover how poor my mental skills were and gave me a brisk grounding in calculating wind drift based on rules of thumb - which I've never forgotten. (All done airborne, just to add to the workload!) If you do a mental calculation as a 'sense check' then electronic calculators are fine.

Tim

[4_blues]

Regardless what we think of slide rules, we just have to get used to them. As they are being used in future we know they are not going anywhere soon!! :}

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/381918_2466386861427_1304961374_32078411_732230923_n.jpg

[Tinstaafl]

I really like my CR5. Small (a hell of a lot smaller than those abysmal CRPs the UK establishment is so fond of), fits in most pockets, never runs out of batteries, accurate (enough to get through Oz IR & ATPL, UK ATPL & US ATP), faster than a calculator for some calculations and eliminates the iterative process that the slide types use in the 'wind down' method. Compared to the CRP-5 some Mach no. problems require fewer steps to solve. Even though the aircraft I fly have avionics up the wazoo, mine lives in my flight bag so I know I'll always have a nav. calculator available no matter what fails in the aircraft.

[riverrock83]

Just for the sake of clarity:
CRP = Pooley's version; ARC = AFE version; E6-B = ASA version; TPS = Transair version

CRP-1 ; ARC-1; E6-B; "Jeppesen Slide Graphic Computer"; TPS-1
Designed for Private pilots - the CRP-1 is the standard everything else is compared to. CRP-1 & ARC-1 are essentially the same with all the features of the others; E6-B and the Jeppesen one are (I believe) missing some metric / imperial conversions which can be useful as they are designed for the US market. E6-B comes in multiple materials and sizes (which all do the same thing).

CRP-1W ; TPS-1 with wind arm
As above but with wind arm which some people prefer. It saves needing to use a pencil to work out winds

CRP-4
A budget CRP-1, made of card instead of plastic and missing the rotating cursor on the computer side.

CRP-5; ARC-2; TPS-2
The upgraded version of the CRP-1 / ARC-1 for "Professional" pilots. If you plan on going commercial, get one of these. They are larger, so can be more accurate, and they deal with the higher speeds required for commercial aviation. CRP-5 is the standard (certainly in UK). ARC-2 also includes the ability to do a couple more calculations but the ATPL exam questions are based on CRP-5 - and the answers you get with ARC-1 will be just slightly wrong...

CRP-5W
As CRP-5 but with wind arm. For the accuracy required at pro level, the wind arm is reputed to be not accurate enough so just gets in the way


CRP-8
This is designed for Microlight users and so deals more accurately with low speeds

There are other pooley flight computers but they aren't commonly used (such as CRP-6 or CRP-9)

Hope this helps!

[Roff]

I agree that a picture in the minds eye is exactly what a student needs but i don't see how the whizz wheel teaches you anything,

I remember being taught how to work out pressure altitudes on the cr5 for the purpose of an exam but still to this day don't even know what a pressure altitude is or maybe i have forgotten.

It's still a form of calculator so why not just use an electronic 1 ?

[BackPacker]

RR83, nice overview.:ok:

Is there one which does a fuel/weight conversion for Diesel/Jet-A in addition to Avgas?

So far I've had to mark them up myself for that.

[abgd]

I tell a lie - I have an ARC-2.

Mine doesn't actually have different fuels specified - just specific density which corresponds exactly to the number on the outer wheel.

It can vary by a few percent winter to summer, which is perhaps why they didn't want to go for specific figures.

[peterh337]

Is that Nimoy pic a montage?

Very funny if it's real :)

[riverrock83]

Same with CRP-1 (which I have) - it just has specific gravity - so 0.72 for Avgas (assuming 15degC) or 0.80 for Jet A1. Either mark it up or commit to memory...

[patowalker]

I just wonder if my school expects me to know this instrument well, just before my exams? I had expected to have some kind of instruction in it?

Google shows many schools in Spain provide students with a PJ-1 and CR-3, so they must be required for the course, and the exams.

[4_blues]

Is that Nimoy pic a montage?

Very funny if it's real

Not sure, I think it may be some sort of Photoshop illusion! Fairly apt though I thought

4B

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not sure, I think it may be some sort of Photoshop illusion! Fairly apt though I thought

4B

I'm not sure, but I have seen a whizz-wheel in use in an episode of Space 1999.

Oh bother, that was 12 years ago now! What happened to all the moon bases we were supposed to have?



Back to the device itself - for PPL level, it really doesn't matter what model you use; for light aircraft flying, they're all good enough - although it helps a bit to have one with a reasonably low speed scale on the insert. Anything you bought on eBay will do.

Personally I think that the Pooleys CRP-1W is the best of the bunch for light aircraft flying, but there really is very little in it. One of the cheap £20 ones from Pooleys or ASA will still work well enough.

G

[Whopity]

I have a Dalton Mk 4A and a 5A given to me by the Queen many years ago. I don't use either very much but they still remain the simplest way to do and demonstrate aviation calculations. Despite over 40 years in my bag they have never needed a new battery or failed to work. You do need to tighten the screws every 10 years. They have CARP, HALO and even a MEARS slide! I have never seen an APP to fulfil those functions.

[S-Works]

They have CARP, HALO and even a MEARS slide! I have never seen an APP to fulfil those functions.

Pray tell, how often does the average PPL use those functions? Or in fact the average commercial pilot?

[peterh337]

HALO

Interesting missions there... I bet you could tell a few stories, but then they would have to prosecute you under the OSA :)

[NazgulAir]

I have two, used to be three but the fancy plastic one didn't last long before I had to throw it away. The remaining ones are metal. One is an old E6-B in my flight bag and self-marked with various ratios that had been missing, the other, similarly marked, is in the airplane bag as a spare.

They are quick to use, the analog representation avoids errors like swapped digits, they never break and don't require power.

The ability to extrapolate is very useful in GA. Exact figures are less important than placing things correctly in relation to each other. Digital calculation is exact but removed from the scale on which life can vary. A dial with a pointer on a scale says more than a number. For that reason alone I'd recommend using the E6-B and its variants. But then I'm oldfashioned and fly in a cockpit full of steam gauges and distrust FADECs and other electronic devices telling me that things are safe.

[Whopity]

Pray tell, how often does the average PPL use those functions? Or in fact the average commercial pilot?Just an illustration that Apps were available for these stone age devices long before mobile phones were even invented.

[Morris542]

Off topic I know but are they still needed for ATPL exams?

[TractorBoy]

Is that Nimoy pic a montage?

Very funny if it's real

Yes. Apparently its from an episode called "Who Mourns for Adonis"

The CRP 5 is not necessary for PPL - you need a CRP 1 (less functions and quite a bit cheaper).

The CRP 5 is needed for ATPLS, as I'm finding out to my horror..... :\