The new Australian Defence Force

[Andu]

Military report puts case for family focus (http://www.smh.com.au/national/military-report-puts-case-for-family-focus-20120107-1pp7a.html)

THE Australian Defence Force will be urged to become more family-friendly and adopt practices such as job sharing, working from home and flexible hours to change its culture.

The Sex Discrimination Commissioner, Elizabeth Broderick, told The Sun-Herald her report on how to retain and promote women in the ADF would recognise military jobs were different to others.


Read more: Military report puts case for family focus (http://www.smh.com.au/national/military-report-puts-case-for-family-focus-20120107-1pp7a.html#ixzz1iq1bBAip)

[Arm out the window]

Great how the article glosses over the positive submissions to the inquiry but quotes a negative one in some detail.

[500N]

"But she said the ADF needed to confront these issues if it was to reverse its ''very low'' number of women in senior positions.

What really gets me about these stories are no one ever answers
- Well maybe some women are NOT interested in making a long term, above Major career out of the ADF
- Maybe, just MAYBE they are not suitable for higher than sub unit command.

I was only talking to someone today re his daughter who missed the first cut to Lt Col, 2 Majors out of 43 were selected, both males, was told she was in the top 5 and even she admitted the 2 who were selected were way ahead of her.

And lastly, those who want to make it will make it, why do we need or want anyone up top "just to make the numbers look good" because it will unravel when the X hits the fan.

We have a Female Brigadier in charge of Afghanistan at the moment and quite a few other senior females.

Even the US only has a few, one who is an Admiral and from memory, the USS Kidd that was involved in the recent rescue of Iranian Fishermen is commanded by a very very capable (judging by the reports on her) female officer.

EDIT
And as for the name calling, I know the ADF has changed and DI's etc can't yell and scream abuse at you on the drill ground but Jesus, what blokey place doesn't take the mickey out of everyone ?

Soon it will be "please put down your weapons and stop firing at us, you might hurt someone".

.

[finestkind]

This is the same minister who commented on the “warrior culture, fitness and strength requirements at ADFA” being discriminatory to females and should be changed.

Yes I can see the touchy feely, I can’t walk over to there with my big gun and if I miss my hair appointment I’m gunna sulk and that will teach those inconsiderate people attacking us, working well.

[Finningley Boy]

Doesn't Australia's Armed Forces stil exist as individual services? I'm a tad confused by this sole reference to the ADF??

As for the Lady MP, does she want to see Nurseries and Kindergartens in Sangin or something?

FB:)

[flighthappens]

She's not an MP... more of an outside consultant.

[500N]

Finningley Boy

Yes, the 3 services still exist but when a report is written the whole defence force is referred to as the ADF.

[Buster Hyman]

ADF working from home? Like, take yer Steyr home & if invaders get to your street, then start fighting??? :p

[Wiley]

That's exactly what the Swiss have been doing for decades, Buster.

But I concede, you have a point. The Swiss situation is very different to what we have here.

It must be 20+ years since Senator Jo Valentine made it quite clear that she and her (then) committee were setting out to "civilianise" the Australian military as much as possible. It would seem the good lady has been remarkably successful.

This has been posted elsewhere, (and is US-centric), but I think it applies equally to Australia. Someone still in 'the system' might care to comment, be it to agree or disagree with me on this point.

Where have all the Fighter Pilots Gone?

Beginning with McNamara, the powers that be decided to run the Air Force like an 8 to 5 business. Warrior leaders of General LeMay's stature were no longer to be found. The fundamental job of the militay, "kill people and break their things", became seriously hampered by "rules of engagement" whose guiding logic is political, not successful combat. I agree with the author. If and when the US military is defeated, it will be running the best Day Care centers in the world. GCB.


We used to go to the Officers Club or NCO Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke and swap lies with our comrades. Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below.

What happened to our Air Force/Marines/Army/Navy............. (or Military)?

Drinking then became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you." Stag bars became seen as 'sexist'. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a performance report. It was the same thing at the Airman's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs. Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks.

Instead we have something called All Ranks Clubs or community clubs. They're open to men and women of all ranks....from airman basic to general officer. Still, no one is there. Gee, I wonder why. The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that the operators ("pilots?") flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their plush desk at duty stations in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. More politically correct logic?

They say that remote vehicle operators are subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot actually flying in combat. ----- REALLY...you're bull-****ting me!!!???

Now that I've primed you a little, read on.

There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately, the ones with the guts to speak up or push for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system."

"Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in the following text - supposedly, Secretary Gates had a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this....

Where have all the fighter pilots gone?

Good Question.

Here is a rant from a retired fighter pilot that is worth reading:

It is rumored that our current Secretary of Defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past?" I can only assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc.?

Well, I've got the answer:

They were fired before they made Major!

Our nation doesn't want those kinds of leaders anymore. Squadron commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are managed by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.

Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devil boozer - his only attributes: he had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together? If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than ****.

I find it ironic that the Air Force put Brigadier General Robin Olds on the cover of the company rag last month.

While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flight suit, get rid of the cigarette, and shave his mustache off.

I have a feeling that his response would be predictable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an Article 15. We have lost the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow; not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk. We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual who you would drag your testicles through glass for rather than disappoint him.

We better wake the hell up! We're asking our young men and women to go to really ****ty places; some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite sex, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into your PT uniform on the way to the porta-****ter at night, in a blinding dust storm, because it's a uniform.

These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin' clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer.

Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C-4 to their own bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.

I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress, and our so-called military leaders. Much talent has and will continue to hemorrhage from our services, because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - - one with our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.

Take it or leave it....that's just the way it is, no. ifs ands or buts...................

[racedo]

Ah the liberalisation of the Military continues.....................

Then again not a shock as when the s:mad: really hits the proverbial lots of crawling will occur when the fluffies realise that bad boy rules apply....

I don't want nice boys and girls doing 9-5 on job share then................... time will call for :mad: :mad: :mad: who will get the job done.

[Arm out the window]

Now we're getting a bit silly.

The reason for the decline of fun and shenanigans in the mess is simply because stringent drink driving laws mean people can't drive home pissed any more!

ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into your PT uniform on the way to the porta-****ter at night, in a blinding dust storm, because it's a uniform

Ridiculous regs aren't new - here's a quote from Gordon Olive's (RAAF pilot who fought in Spitfires all through the Battle of Britain, among other things) 'The Devil at 6 O'Clock' describing his return from overseas:

I reported to the local air force personnel depot. Here I had to take a sheet of paper around in order that twenty or so officers could sign it ... there were several dozen other rankers all doing likewise. Assuming each officer took two minutes to check whether the man had a pair of overalls he was not entitled to, or if he had his correct number on his sheets of documents, there was a full day's work for at least 25 officers who devoted their time to signing a piece of paper...

He then had to hang around for a month wasting time waiting for his medical docs to turn up by boat because the RAAF wouldn't pay for them to come back by air mail, and he wasn't allowed to fly without them being sighted!

He also had to take a rank drop from WGCDR because he'd enlisted in the RAF and then rejoined the RAAF on return, whereas his mates who hadn't been overseas had no such impost.

As far as what kind of leaders we need, I can't speak about fighter pilots because I'm not one, but the qualities I'd look for in a squadron exec would be courage, integrity, energy, fairness and professionalism. Whether they were a piss drinking hell raiser who liked going to titty bars in their spare time or a quiet non-bull****ter would be immaterial.

Regarding the political over-correctness we all hate, that's everywhere, not just the services, and it's very hard to get rid of.

The sentiment behind this stuff, stamping out sexism, bullying and so on is fair enough - anyone who really is that kind of person is a liability.

The problem is deciding what's really a problem and what's just normal banter and a bit of fun on the job. Particularly with the threat of litigation around, I think we often tend to over-react. Now there's such media scrutiny, commanders and politicians feel they must be seen to be doing something, rather than treating problems realistically.

But back to the original issue:

The old days of the bloke flying off to war and the woman staying at home looking after the house and kids are gone.

If servicepeople (not just women) have family committments, those have to be met. If we're going to retain skilled personnel of both sexes, they need to be able to do their job, including long deployments overseas, secure in the knowledge that their families are going to be OK.

If flexible working hours, job share and so on are required so those skilled people don't just up and leave to something more stable, then so be it.

[500N]

AOTW

I don't have a problem with "family friendly work places" but everyone has to realise that the Military is different to other work places and does involve long term separation sometimes.

Have a look therough the Australian, an article while I was away saying people leaving the ADF (ALL 3 SERVICES) at a faster rate than in the past - AND one of the reasons is the mining industry - not what I would call a family friendly environment, dirty working conditions, fly in fly out, separation. the only good thing is the money.

Agree that it is a fine line between bullying and banter.

Drink driving laws have been around for years, we still had mess fun.

[Arm out the window]

Yeah, I'm certainly not denying that in signing up for a military job you should be well aware there's a chance you'll be off at short notice for an indeterminate time.

I missed 6 of my son's first 18 months, and his first Christmas, away in Timor, and a couple more on other deployments during that time; hopefully no-one's under the illusion they can join and never be sent away.

[500N]

AOTW

I was in during the "great peace" so didn't get a chance to go OS.

Anyway, you are more recent. re the mess, Drink driving laws have stuff all to do with mess fun, the same laws apply to those outside the ADF.

And in the late 80's, the Regs in the ADF were I have to say living in the past, a heavy drinking culture existed which was not good for performance. That is why it changed.

I can honestly say that the messes I was in were fun, everyone drank, the Officers / WO's mess of the SF Reserve unit had a heavy drinking culture but it was a play hard, work hard culture - you had to be able to perform the next day, regardless of how much grog you had in you, be it a 3.2km run, 15km run or 40km forced march.

Good discussion anyway.

[Andu]

Someone still in 'the system' might care to comment, be it to agree or disagree with me on this point.From the few answers we have seen to date, it would seem those currently in the system disagree with sentiments expressed in the 'Where have all the Fighter Pilots Gone?' letter.

Interesting... (and to someone who was very much part of the old system - with all its acknowledged faults - surprising).

[Captain Sand Dune]

From the few answers we have seen to date, it would seem those currently in the system disagree with sentiments expressed in the 'Where have all the Fighter Pilots Gone?' letter.
I think you'll find there would be agreement with the sentiment expressed in the quoted letter among those "in the system". However it would be detrimental to the progression of one's career to say as much.

[Arm out the window]

Well, that letter's too much of a rant to make much sense, and it's heavy on the emotional stuff without much guts to it.

That's not to say I don't like drinking, smoking or 'stag bars', as he calls them, but if dismay at the lack of official endorsement of same is the thrust of his argument, it's pretty bloody weak.

While I appreciate the idea that we can be hamstrung by too much political over-correctness, the rest of it sounds like the writer's biggest beef is that you can't get on the piss or play up as much as you used to be able to!

And is he seriously saying that rules of engagement are bad and you should be able to 'kill people and break their things' without them?

[Captain Sand Dune]

AOTW,

I thought you guys were more relaxed way up there in FNQ! Just arrived in the Victorian Riviera. Might even get your old office.

[Arm out the window]

Hey, good on ya mate, you'll be an asset to the place.

How'd they manage to get you to move?

[oldpinger]

They told CSD that if he stayed they'd have to promote him!;)

[Buster Hyman]

That's exactly what the Swiss have been doing for decades, Buster.

...and little Sir Echo...

That's exactly what the Swiss have been doing for decades, Buster.

But you're both wrong. The Swiss don't use Steyr's!

[Bushranger 71]

FB; elaborating a bit re your post #5.

The Australian Defence Force was created in 1974 as a thinly-veiled unified force (similar to the Canadian experiment). Navy, Army, Air Force remain as nominally separate identities with respective Service Chiefs, although the overall force is dominated by Army and virtually centrally administered by public servants of 3 separate ministries/departments.

Previously, the more independent armed forces were properly subject to direct political oversight; but post-1974, that morphed into Public Service control with subsequent prodigious growth of a dysfunctional Defence bureaucracy which propagates increasingly rampant political correctness.

Pre-ADF, I recall visits by joint parliamentary committees and politicians of both major political parties mentioning over beers that we had better make the most of mess life because it was not going to prevail much longer. What gets missed in debate re that aspect is that most military bases then had on-base and nearby married quarter accommodation so messes more or less substituted for local clubs providing valuable interfaces for the mutual support of families when members were absent on duty.

The emphasis on military tradition that once prevailed strongly in messes and elsewhere has since been deliberately diluted with numerous public utterances from politicians and bureaucrats degrading this aspect. Tradition was really the glue that bound organisations together as effective fighting forces.

In Australia, pride in the military uniform has diminished. While the 3 Services have differing ceremonial dress and once all had working dress that was quite presentable in public, it is now trendy for everybody to wander around and travel in sloppy clown suits (my wife calls them pyjamas) looking more like species of lizards – same gear also seems to appeal to hippies! Camouflage clothing designs are mostly not well-suited to operating environs and it is interesting that the Israeli military have not seen need for harlequin dress.

The girls did a grand job in roles for which they had special talents (e.g. GCI, nursing, etcetera) and so-called sexist behaviour toward women did not then seem to be the problem that is now perceived. Perhaps the clamour for equal opportunity by the feminist push has created the new set of problems and the addition of female crew on warships for example is really just asking for trouble.

Political correctness is having far more widespread adverse effects on the military than is generally recognised.

[Captain Sand Dune]

AOTW,
After 7 1/2 years they couldn't wait to get rid of me!

OP,
They would really have to be desperate if they wanted to promote a cranky old b*stard like me! I don't think "the system" can handle "old school" command styles anyway!

[MTOW]

Re Bushranger71's post: it would seem from some of the posts here that the 1974 plan he refers to has been by and large successful.

[Willi B]

Bushranger 71

Generally agree.

Wrt your comments on Defence pubic serpents. while ADF members attend for duty in uniform (whether tree look a like or otherwise), many of the aforesaid civilians turn up (certainly at Campbell Park offices in the ACT) for "work" dressed in attire more appropriate to a sunday bbq than for employment in a joint military civil environment.

I'm sure you could tap every fourth Defence civilian employee on the shoulder in Canberra, and show them the door, without any significant impact on Defence capability.

[Wander00]

Clearly Australia is going for the "Hug your enemy to death" plan - seems to be on a par with "Sheila, you awake?"

[finestkind]

This “new” PC environment that is supposed to make everything so much better and more equitable is really starting to smack of 1984 the George Orwell version. May well work when everyone comes on board which means you have no enemies anyway, so why the need for an ADF.

[Andu]

I know there'll be many who'll howl me down for saying it, but I can't help but wonder how long it would take for certain (shall we say 'right at the coal face/meat grinder') units to go back to (shall we say 'pre-PC') SOPs if we were ever to find ourselves in a really 'backs to the wall' situation a la September 1942 some time in the future?

When the (totally predictable, almost as if scripted) 'shock! horror!' responses came flooding in from all quarters (including senior US and NATO military officers) after the four US marines pissing on dead Taliban was posted online, I couldn't help but think that armies once (and not too long ago) quite officially demonised their enemies so as to de-humanise them so that young soldiers would not hesitate to kill them.

Not today - at least for 'enlightened' Western armies. Today, (after we kill 'em), we must treat them with respect.

While in no way condoning what the Marines did, my main opprobrium is directed to the *** idiot who (a) videoed it and then (b) posted it on line. (WTF was he thinking???)

The sad fact is, the type of young men best suited to front line combat units are probably not the type of young man most of us would want our daughters to bring home with her flashing an engagement ring. Jack Nicholson's USMC Colonel's speech in 'A Few Good Men' also comes to mind.

I just watched a re-run of Speilberg's 'The Pacific' which showed US Marines ripping gold fillings out of the teeth of (in one case, a NOT dead) Japanese with their bayonets, and I'm reminded of an old Australian digger telling me years ago about his rather eventful war in New Guinea. He said: "Don't believe all that *** about the Japs never surrendering. Lots of Japs surrendered." (Unsaid, he heavily inferred that not too many survived the 'surrender experience'.) He went on to say: "They (the Japanese) were utter bastards, and we won because we were even bigger bastards than they were." Not a comfortable comment for many, I suspect. As I said, not too many of us want to know what Jack Nicholson's USMC colonel character spoke of him and his men do 'on the city wall' to preserve the soft lives we've all come to expect within the safety of those 'city walls'.

[MTOW]

(Unsaid, he heavily inferred that not too many survived the 'surrender experience'.)The Japanese propensity, (even many of the very badly wounded ones), for attempting to take one last enemy with them as they 'surrendered' might have had something to do with the Australians' attitude to 'surrendering' Japanese.

[javelinfaw9]

Hear Hear! Best post re this incident I`ve read.
Tabloid journalism celebrates war-up to a point.
These guys are at the sharp end , Doing the job to give us our western lifestyle. THE SITUATION IS KILL OR BE KILLED. Its not a film.
Get Real, the four "miscreants" survived. Hopefully, being snipers they will add to the "bag" and help keep us safe.War is War not a football match.
Javelinfaw9

[finestkind]

Andu, surprised if there are that many dissenters.

I believe it was Winnie (Churchill for those younger ones) that said “ one of life’s most exhilarating experiences is to be shot at and missed”. He also stated how ironic it was for ones enemy to try to kill you, miss and then wish to surrender.

War is not a bed of roses. One way to handle the horror of what one is exposed to is black humour and as already stated dehumanizing the enemy to maintain one’s sanity or part of.