Cougar Helicopters Pilots Vote to Unionize!

[Angry Bayman]

The pilots of Cougar Helicopters (http://cougar.ca) working the offshore in St. John's Newfoundland, Canada have voted to unionize under the umbrella of the Office and Professional Employees International Union.:eek:

The Canadian Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) ordered the certification of the union on 22 December 2011, in CIRB Order No.: 10151-U.

Hopefully the way ahead will be smooth on their way to their first collective agreement. :ok:

[zalt]

Any particular reasons?

[Angry Bayman]

The usual ones. . :D

[Redhawk 83]

They choose a union that in the US that represents PHI, Bristow, AMC (and OMNI?), and maybe FT Rucker IPs (probably the best paid if they do). The pay at the first three listed is not good compared to other Oil & Gas jobs worldwide or even the US; if count Chevron or some other non UNION shops!:ugh:

[SASless]

Chevron.....Oil Company.....Shell....Oil Company....Customer to PHI...contractor.....BHL.....contractor....see a pattern developing Redhawk?

You want the big bucks...you hire on with the Oil Company....not the helicopter operator contracting to the Oil Company.

Fact of life in the oil patch!

[Redhawk 83]

Thanks SASless for pointing out Chevron and Shell are Oil companies and that the rest are contractors:rolleyes:; but the point is that they (Cougar pilots) already do better than what OPEIU has done in the US.....I know....I know...they are in St John's and OPEIU has CHC pilots etc. But as a former unimpressed OPEIU dues paying member.....I think there had to be a better way to go. I wonder how the US OPEIU rank and file will feel about OPEIU members from North of the border making more than them in the US.

[Angry Bayman]

I wonder how the US OPEIU rank and file will feel about OPEIU members from North of the border making more than them in the US.

I'm sure if they had any experience flying in Newfy weather they would understand. 65G80 knots offshore isn't a hurricane here, it's just a low pressure system with icing, a sea temp of 2 Deg, and a landing at VV001 and RVR 600. :ooh:

Wearing offshore survival suits in the GOM?

And who said the main issue was pay rates? :confused:

[alouette3]

If the issue is not about pay rates then the guys and gals at Cougar are screwed. OPEIU does nothing more than negotiate (poorly) to get a slight bump.It keeps their coffers full and they have zero stake in real helicopter pilots' issues and safety.Their track record in the US has been dismal.A disbanded union in PHI, a dysfunctional union in AMC,failure to unionize Calstar and Carefliight and a gloomy prospect for the Bristow guys ahead.The Ft. Rucker group (Local 107) are not a private entity. They are a contractor with Uncle Sam.Hence, to cite that as a success story is comparing Apples to Beef.
OPEIU is a parent union for office workers and the like. If you want hard nosed representation, you would do well to find a union that has airline experience.At least then you will make inroads into the real issues that plague our industry.
How do I know? Been there,done that ,got the T Shirt that says "OPEIU Sucks!":ugh::ugh::ugh:
You have been warned!:=
Alt3

[tottigol]

Airline unions know better than messing with helicopter pilots (at least in the USA), ask the PHI guys who were around thirty years ago.
About OPEIU record working with 135 Operators in the USA, I would put the blame straight on the pilots' laps.

As far as comparing apples to apples, Redhawk ought to compare the payscale of PHI and Bristow Group to that one of ERA in the Gulf so to see the different economical treatment of a union shop versus one with "employment at (company's) will".

[SASless]

Seems to recall....the "younger" pilots were all miffed about the disparity (real or imagined) in pay increases during the last contract negotiation and quite a few got cold feet.

The one thing is for sure...unless the pilots stick together as a group...even if they had Jimmy Hoffa himself in charge of the Union...they would lose out.

When you set out to kill the King.....one cannot strike a wounding blow only.

That is what happened....and as a result...the Union movement in the Gulf was struck down by the Operators. As in most things in life....at some point equilibrium sets in until something happens to upset the balance.

The history of the Union movement for helicopter pilots is something a book could be written about. Retired Military guys for the most part...were scared to death of a Union, Youngsters had no understanding of what the GOM was like before the Union, and the Old Hands that were left had fought enough battles and were worn out. Add in the commerical pressures, Management resistance, and a corrupt legal system in Louisana...and it all made for good theater.

The sad thing is just as the Operators said...they would have to raise Rates....they did....they benefited as did their employees....but then somewhere in the shuffle the ball got lost in the gutter. Both sides, Labor and Management fought a battle that neither side really needed to fight and personalities figured boldly rather than sheer commonsense and business decision making.

I wonder if the Cougar unionization will be successful for both sides? It can be....and should be. Safety issues should not be something that has to be fought over between Labor and Management.

[Redhawk 83]

Thanks, Alt3 for pointing out to Angry Bayman the OPEIU's lack luster performance. Sorry I pointed to $$ as a indicator but like Alt3 I have been a member of OPEIU and don't expect much. I understand your issue about the Newfie weather (especially when you return to night ops) vs. weather in the GOM but what I was addressing was Cougar pilots in the GOM (Galliano) making more than the other US OPEIU union members here in the US. Sorry for not being clearer about that. Also how will this affect the US folks working for Cougar up there and down here?

I probably don't disagree totally with pilots going union; it is just that union! But I don't know what your other choices were; if any.

[donut king]

A union is only as strong as its members. weak member support equals a weak union. strong member support...strong union.

this applies to ANY union! ANY industry!

Unfortunately, as helicopter pilots we usually don't stand strongly together (IMHO)!

Been told that OPEIU has partnered with ALPA to some capacity, trying to progress the helicopter side of the aviation industry.

[Shawn Coyle]

I was a member of a Union for several years. Most illuminating. The main point that I took from the experiences was that if you don't get involved, you deserve whatever happens to you. And the main purpose of the union is to work for the interests of the members, and to protect them from different levels of management interpreting the rules in different ways.
One of the better things unions do now is act as the filter between pilots and management on the Flight Operations Quality Assurance program by being the ones who review the FDR files. Works well in the big airlines and those helicopter operations that have 'em.

[Angry Bayman]

Not looking like this is going to be easy. Seems like some of the "by's" are gonna do everything they can to sabotage the union from the inside by pandering to the management side.:ugh:

Feeling sorry for the organizers who are bound to get stabbed in the back.:sad:, at least if the midnight rum-fuelled e-mails can be believed.:(:eek:

Rough road ahead.:uhoh:

[pasptoo]

As a young engineering apprentice, I was “encouraged” to join the union. I couldn’t understand the way it (union) and the management interacted. We would ask for 15% pay rise, they would counter with 5%. In the end after much to and fro with the threat of industrial action and all sorts, we agree on about 7%. This being the figure we wanted in the first place, knowing that the management wouldn’t allow us much more anyway!

Why not ask for this on day one? Was I being too naive? Surely this would save many man-hours and a lot of angst, not to mention a poor perspective of the company ethos. I would, however, have the support of the union should I need it for disciplinary or redundancy action arising in the future.

I later spent many years working within military aviation and the unionized requirements disappeared, as there would almost always be a better understanding and treatment of the workforce, not to mention a level of protection or “Buck Stopping”. (was I being naive again?).

On my arrival in the civilian aviation world the specter of the union appeared again. Why would I need a union? I had coped for many years without and been treated fairly. Not asked to do anything beyond the realms of reasonability. Within ONE week I had signed up to the local union (Pilots). The company was attempting and requesting things I (we) felt were unsafe and poorly planned. I needed some support and protection.

It is a level of protection that is not required in the military because the "company" by and large looked after you. Commercial Companies will drop you like a stone. :mad:

As for TnCs you all need to be strong otherwise it won't work. I'm afraid the old adage "One in, All in" really will help you make a stand on rosters, pay, pensions etc.

Only my view, but I do sleep well at night. :zzz:

[bleuciel]

Heard rumors that the "Union Virus" will spread overseas, to the North Sea (the "unaffected" part).
:E

[Rhododendron]

Hi All.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but didn’t really feel my question justifies starting a new one.

Please could someone with union experience tell me the downside of having a union in the workplace?

I work for a company that actively discourages membership of the union and, although the majority of the pilots are union members, there is no representation at the company.

I have been canvassed on a few occasions as to whether I’d support the introduction of the union formally into the company, and I can see the benefits it would bring. I just need a reasoned counter to the argument so I can formulate an opinion.

There are a number of my colleagues are in a similar position who are thinking the same thing. Takes someone to ask the question, though.

I’m sure there are many more consequences that haven’t even been considered, so all advice and opinions will be very welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Rhod

[alouette3]

Rhod,
Let me take a crack at this and hopefully others will chime in.
First the benefits:
No longer an "At Will" employee. Essentially what that means is you cannot be fired at the whims and fancies of your immediate superior, flight nurse, oil worker and there is a progressive disciplins system in place.
Obvious increase in Ts &Cs.A union compnay certainly pays better than a non union company and they are required to stick to a pay table with defined raises.
ALPA has managed to engage the airline industry in the US in improving safety and has become a voice that the regulators and operators listen to.Someday, they will include the red headed step child (helicopter pilots) into their fold and hopefully we will see some improvements in our work life.
Now the downside:
If your union is not strong and united,it will be a waste of time to be a member.The only thing that makes operators sit up and take notice is a threat of work action and,if the group is not united, that will never happen and the operators will still have the upper hand.
Unions in the US wage a constant uphill battle.The laws were written and designed by the right wing capitalist to make it hard to unionize and retain the union.Also, in arbitrations and legal battles, the judges here will typically come down on the side of the company leading to long drawn out legal battles. So,if you are out of a job, the union will fight, but you will be without work for upto 2 + years.
You effectively add another level of bureaucracy and with that comes corruption and feather bedding by the union leadership.The President of the OPEIU ,for instance, thinks it is below him to repond to letters and e-mails from the membership at large.His annual salary,which is paid for from your dues, is about what I will make in three to five years.
So,in the end, I still believe that helicopter pilots need unions and we should be members.But,if your union is not strong, and corrupt, like the OPEIU is, you may just as well be without one.
Alt3.

[Rhododendron]

Alt3, thanks very much for your comments.

It does appear that there are some particular issues with your union that hopefully won’t apply over here.
At least I certainly hope not.
Of the downsides I had considered, corruption was definitely not one of them!

I am in favour of union involvement if it offers us protection from the whims and fancies of the management, but not if it adversely affects the day to day running of the company or the working relationship between employees who are union members an those who choose not to join.

Some more specific questions I have floating around are:

a. Is membership compulsory for all pilots, once the union is introduced to the company?

b. Is the union generally beneficial to the running of the company, or does it tend to be at loggerheads with the management?

c. Is there a choice of union or is BALPA the only one?

d. Does one of us have to stick his head above the parapet, and risk his job in order to initiate introduction of the union, or is he protected in some way from disciplinary action?

e. What percentage of the company need to be in favour of such a move?

f. Is the company obliged to interact with the union, or can they refuse to recognize it and carry on as normal?


Cheers,


Rhod

[SASless]

Also....when contract negotiation time rolls around....there are three sets of interests in play....Management...Members....and the Union Organizational interests. Sometimes....nay all the time...management and the union leadership interests do not necessarily coincide with the Members interests, needs, goals, and desires.

Done right...Unions can be a good thing....but most seem to go all pear shaped at some point in time.

The very best defense against a Union is a competent, connected, honest management that values their people and see them as "people" and not "assets", "staff", or "overhead".

[Angry Bayman]

Negotiations for the Cougar Pilots' first union contract will begin in a couple of weeks. Watchin' n Waitin' to see how it goes. Hoping the union team is skilled and steadfast. "Long may 'dere big jib draw!" eh bye's!

[industry insider]

Be very careful Angry Bayman.

Those nasty big oil companies who pay your wages don't like the big bad Unions. Some have even supported helicopter companies against the OPEIU.

Those helicopter companies don't have many Union dealings any more and some of the pilots from the Union days no longer have jobs. Perhaps you should ask them what they thought of the OPEIU.

[Arnie Madsen]

An employee who dislikes the pay and working conditions should quit and go elsewhere.

An employer who offers poor pay and poor working conditions will have no employees.

That is the free market .... and it works the best.

Only limp noodles need a union .

[SASless]

Compare life in the Gulf of Mexico or the North Sea "Before" Unions....and "After".....look at the pay and working conditions and financial condition of the companies.

The Oil Companies may not like Unions...the Operators may not like Unions....even some Pilots may not like Unions.....but the Pay, Benefits, and Working Conditions are better and both the Helicopter Industry and Oil Industry are doing quite well after the Union came into being.

The only reason for a Union is piss poor Management. If the Operator has good management, does right by their employees....no Union can get a Toe Hold and be able to get a winning vote.

After the Union is formed....then it is Union Management that has to succeed with the members or it will find itself being de-certified and out of business.

Unionism is a business in and of itself....just like any other business. If you do not have a product to sell that people will buy and continue to buy...if you cannot price your product at a reasonable price....you go out of business.

One Man's Opinion here.....I see Unions as being good and bad....it all depends upon how they conduct their business and treat their members.

Pick your leaders carefully....get the right folks and your union will succeed and your pay, benefits, and working conditions will benefit from that. If not....look at the Gulf of Mexico for a bit of history.

[Aerobot]

"An employer who offers poor pay and poor working conditions will have no employees."

Nonsense. An employer who offers poor pay and poor working conditions will have plenty of employees as long as their competitors are no better.

[Mikila1A]

Well said Aero!

Grass is not always greener. Ask some in Cougar who have left and are now back.

Nuff said.

And yes, da by's are watching.

[MamaPut]

Never liked unions, never been a member. Haven't liked a lot of employers. When I'm getting nowhere I walk - always within my Ts and Cs. Comes down to a point of view. Which is better from a pilot point of view - 100 members flying S92s and making $100,000 pa or 200 members flying S76s and making $50,000 pa or 400 members flying B407s and making $25,000 pa (just for example figures). Many of us want to be pilots, but life is full of economies of scale.

From what I've seen, once so-called professional unions get involved they're in it mostly for the benefit of the union officials. With too many pilots chasing too few jobs and willing to take whatever is on offer, even if it means working for less than a truck driver makes and greedy union officials, the only ones to benefit are unscrupulous employers and greedy full-time union officials. Helicopter pilots nearly always end up getting screwed. Unions will make a few relatively wealthy and many unemployed. You make your choice and you reap what you've sown - to mix a bunch of metaphors!

[Angrybayman]

Well its been quite a 'time' here on da rock wit the Union heavies working to get a first Contract. Today they said they got one with a majority vote of 80.4%. I guess allll eyes are lookin' to see what 'appens now! :ooh:

There were a few dissenters of course. :mad:

I guess we are all brudders now eh by'! :D

[flightfollower]

Congratulations to all that support the union. Unions are for their members and only as good as the support they get from the members.

Only working together can we ever make our profession better, safer and more rewarding.