How to fly a Herc!

[TBM-Legend]

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Aviation Video: C-130J Demo 'Paris 2011' *In Cockpit* | Patrick's Aviation (http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/cpasley/5495/)

[Flyingblind]

Nice find. Thanks.

[3bars]

Hmmmmm, stall warning and sink rate on short finals and nobody felt the need to say anything:oh:

Also flown over a built up area???:E

[xenolith]

Step 1. Get chopped from fast jets and/or rotary.

Step 2. .............;)

[Airborne Aircrew]

I was waiting for him to go to guns, be referred to as "Maverick" and the Top Gun music to start... Just before he buzzes the tower...:E

[Airborne Aircrew]

KF...

I suppose the significance of the little :E was lost on you...

:ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Nope, KF knows exactly what he is up to :D

[Chugalug2]

As they clear the runway the Captain apologises to the Co-Pilot for what sounds like "the 3". Would that be g? :confused:

[StopStart]

Very nice piece of flying from the mighty J there. Standard selection of ding dings, woop woops and quacks quacks at inappropriate moments too. That many "bank angles" though would require an RAF aircraft to be reduced to its component parts for in depth NDT. Because we're idiots.

Hmmmmm, stall warning and sink rate on short finals and nobody felt the need to say anything

You are of course correct - there should've at least been a "niiiiice" from someone on the flightdeck. Remember, as long as you're stabilised and on speed by 4ft it's a good approach.
:ok:

[glojo]

As an outsider looking in, I was mightily impressed with that display and equally impressed with the reassuring professionalism of that pilot. I would like to think his words were reassuring to folks on that flight deck that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing and although alarms were sounding, most seemed to be short term warnings that the pilot was negating after putting that kite ;) through its paces. click (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/hoc/2010_HOC_Presentations/Mon_1030_Planning_and_Executing_C-130J_Airshows.pdf)

Going into witter mode.
I have had the misfortune :):O to completing various advanced driver\rider courses and listening to the instructor's commentary and giving my own lets folks know we are in charge of the beast as opposed to the beast being in charge of the driver\rider\pilot

[Hueymeister]

I love air shows, I really do...but why do that with a transport a/c? I saw the twin-engined thingy at RIAT strutting its stuff, amazing, but why? FJ hooning around in burner, old-timer fighters look great in their natural environment....maybe I'm just getting old!

[bugsmasherpilot]

I just wonder whether the A400M would be capable of the same, or if the computers cut in to prevent it???

[Buster Hyman]

The download was a little slow & at one stage the video stopped...I assume that's what the stall warning was about then...

[BEagle]

I just wonder whether the A400M would be capable of the same, or if the computers cut in to prevent it??? Well, the test pilots felt confident enough to display the prototype at well over 90º AoB at ILA Berlin only 6 months after the aircraft first flew.....

dgALWWBg3qs

The 'computers' not only enable the aircraft to be flown without the need for the arm-flailing opposite-lock control column movements demonstrated by Captain America in his digitally-remastered Albert, but also provide sufficient envelope protection to avoid overstressing the aircraft.....

Or stalling it.....:uhoh:

[Courtney Mil]

Is all the sticky tape on the fin there to repair it after those landings!?!? :rolleyes:

[DX Wombat]

Don't be silly :E it's go faster tape. ;) They have, however, contravened the rules and regs by not having a pair of fluffy dice dangling in front of the windscreen. :=
Edited to ask what is probably a silly question but I am interested to know the answer.
At 1.34 there is mention of "the door" and at 1.56 the loading ramp appears to me to be open. Is it my vivid imagination and if not, is this deliberate or a case of "Oops we didn't secure it properly?"

[NutLoose]

Ahhhhhhh but does he shut down two on one side during his display, drop the gear at the same time and do a bit of assymetric flying..... :E

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhrziTee4b2c&v=hrziTee4b2c&gl=GB)

[BEagle]

NutLoose, I presume you're referring to Sarel Ceronio's astonishing display in the SAAF DC-4 Skymaster at the Harvard 50th anniversary air show:

hrziTee4b2c

I can't see that getting past any flying display committee these days! And yes, he was double asymmetric at one point....:ooh:

[DX Wombat]

OK BGG, that's part one answered :ok: - any chance of the rest? ;)

[zero1]

Impressive... but I don't think they would allow that type of display these days...

[zero1]

Hear's another Fat Albert display from the Blue Angels

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9h_pD9wC_k

[BEagle]

That Blue Angels clip is simply....well, I suppose charitably you could merely say, 'so American'...

What sort of utter wanquerre states "Let's go fly" in response to a call of 'Vmca?

As for that ar$e with his continuous hyped-up commentary....:mad: Do they really need all that intercom yak ("I'm outside") to fly such a very simple display?

In any case, I suspect that most spectators were probably bored fartless after the first minute or so....

"Oo-rah....:\"

[Cows getting bigger]

Hmmm, in addition....

Chuck seems to be slightly lazy with his feet.

The runway centreline needs repainting - it doesn't appear to be coincident with where Chuck is taking-off or landing.

:p

[Tankertrashnav]

I love air shows, I really do...but why do that with a transport a/c? I saw the twin-engined thingy at RIAT strutting its stuff, amazing, but why? FJ hooning around in burner, old-timer fighters look great in their natural environment....maybe I'm just getting old!


They're all just a warm up act for the Vulcan - or at least any air show where it's appearing :ok:

[A97]

I would loved to have known what the "Cautions" we could hear being annunciated were. They were just ignoring them. As for the stall warning on landing at least he didn't get the stick shaker and push.

Based on when they occurred (after bunting) I would say it would have been oil pressure low ACAWS. Flight manual says 7 seconds is the limit of an intentional negative or zero g manoeuvre.

[StopStart]

Given that most of them didn't occur under sustained (or even any) negative G I'd suggest they weren't. I've certainly never seen a low oil pressure acaws whilst bunting. Could have been anything.

Originally Posted by Kreuger flap
I would loved to have known what the "Cautions" we could hear being annunciated were. They were just ignoring them.

Er, no they weren't. Each one was acknowledged with the co making a "continue" call. :hmm: I can guarantee that the cautions were for something phenomenally dull though.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I can guarantee that the cautions were for something phenomenally dull though.

Would 'pie oven over-temp' fall into that category or is that one of the more important cautions?;)

[SASless]

Beags....when you wuz doing the same in the Beverly....did you not do much the same?

[The Helpful Stacker]

SASless - Don't you mean when he was on the Vickers Valentia?

[NutLoose]

I bet you both, he found throwing the wheel about like that was punishing on the old Wing warping....... :E

[SASless]

Gee...I wuz trying to be polite and talk of the most modern aircraft he flew....not the one he flew the longest part of his career!

[Mach Two]

Well, I have to fly slightly in the face of popular opinion here. Sorry about this, but I thought the crew coordination was pretty bloomin' good. Yes, they spoke American, but after all they are... ...American. I liked the way responsibility for various parameters was passed between pilot and co and the constant monitoring of everything that was going on. Can't argue with what it might have looked like from the ground, but the cockpit was lively place and guys so focussed on what they were doing. It looked mighty professional and I liked it muchly.

On the other hand, I do have to agree 100% with comments about the Vulcan display. Fast jet man all my life, but at airshows she was the only moster that made the earth shake. Utter power!!!

M2

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Beagle slagging off Americans (twice) simply because he can? Who'd have thunk it?!

Glad to see that there are at least a couple of fellow Brits who can offer credit where it's due.

[Courtney Mil]

I think I might actually agree with M2 here (just once). An object lesson in crew coordination, as you put it. I've never flown anything with that many people watching me, but I have to say it all looked very slick.

BEags, really sorry here (and I know why you hate it), but I kind of liked the "let's fly". You'd have thrown me out of your jet for that, wouldn't you? :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Actually, just re-watched al the vids on this thread and Mrs C and I are totally in awe of the people that do that stuff in big aircraft. Hats off to the zebras!

[BEagle]

The thing is Courtney, old horseman, that in an aircraft operating to Scheduled Performance criteria all intercom calls during the take-off roll must be standard and only essential calls should be used...

"Off the peg" is unnecessary - a silent cross check of ASIs reading is all that's required.

"My yoke....your yoke". Well, we'd just call "My controls" and no response was required.

"80 knots" - happy with that.

"Vmca"? Well, I don't know why he would need that. Or why he needed to say something as puerile as "Let's go fly" in response. In the VC10 the next call would be "V1", followed by "Rotate". Then "V2" followed by "Landing gear UP"...."Selected" - and nothing else until flap retract at 1500 ft agl apart from the odd radio call.

I didn't hear many checklist items called during the Blues' C-130 performance - and quite why so many height/speed calls were needed for such a simple display, I really don't know. All we would call would be deviations from pre-briefed criteria.

Standing by for incoming from the usual non-ME aircrew keyboard warriors....

[MightyGem]

Well, I have to fly slightly in the face of popular opinion here. Sorry about this, but I thought the crew coordination was pretty bloomin' good. Yes, they spoke American, but after all they are... ...American. I liked the way responsibility for various parameters was passed between pilot and co and the constant monitoring of everything that was going on. Can't argue with what it might have looked like from the ground, but the cockpit was lively place and guys so focussed on what they were doing. It looked mighty professional and I liked it muchly.

Have to agree with that as well.

Well, we'd just call "My controls" and no response was required.
What, no positive handover BEagle?

[BEagle]

What, no positive handover BEagle?

Nope, deemed unecessary The 'My Controls' call was only required if the LHS pilot was the handling pilot as at 80KIAS he/she would move his/her hand from the nosewheel steering to the control column, keeping his/her right hand on the thrust levers until the V1 call, whereupon he/she would release full control of engine thrust to the Air Engineer.

The SOP was developed to minimise intercom calls during take-off to only those which were essential.

[The Helpful Stacker]

What, no positive handover BEagle?

{Remembers back to a grainy Chipmunk pre-flight film.....}

Pilot - "You have control John."

John Andrews - "I have control Sir."

Is this not the way its actually done? Please tell me it ain't so, its my sole source of reference to what you Sky Gods get up to, non-ME and ME alike.


{Just seen Beags reply, world has come crashing down................};)

[OmegaV6]

"I have control" / "you have control" only needed when the control of the aircraft changes from one pilot to another.

Hercules LHS pilot has control (of the aircraft) throughout the take off (unless it's a co-pilots take off of course which is somewhat different) it is just that for the first part he executes that control via the nosewheel steering and the copilot keeps the yoke pushed forwards to ensure the nosewheel does not leave the ground, when the LHS pilot moves his hand from the nosewheel to the yoke he states "my controls" to tell the co-pilot to let go (effectively if not actually), there is NO handover of control of the aircraft, so no response needed.

On a co-pilots take off the "I have /you have" calls ARE made as the co-pilot does not have a steering input initially, and when he states "I have" the LHS pilot will release the nose wheel steering and the co-pilot takes full control (of the aircraft)

seeemples .. :) and seemed to work for just under 10,000 hours and 35 years of watching a pair of two winged master race individuals get it right .. mostly ... :)

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, fair enough, BEags. You know much better than I in the ME world. Perhaps watching it should have been my secret pleasure. I was about to say something about enjoying watching a crew work together, but I know that's the case in the big jets anyway. Maybe I've got late onset multi-engine envy or something. :ok:

[SASless]

For those unwashed amongst the peanut gallery....doing things differently to that in the RAF/UK aviation world is seen by the RAF/UK Pilot Populace as being inferior, unnecessary, or downright wrong. In time with exposure to this phenomenon one learns to look beyond some posts made re an event that calls forth such observations and moves along to enjoy the discussion.

We all know there has never been a non-standardized call out or bit of chatter in any RAF/UK cockpit and of course never a mistake or deviation that was conceivable but then perhaps excellence should just be mimicked and not critqued. God forbid someone was to have a sense of humour and actually enjoy throwing an airplane about the sky a bit and putting on a bit of airshow for folks.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Well said SASless. I thoroughly agree.

[Nige321]

Re: the Blue Angels video.

Could someone enlighten me as to why there appears to be a 'ballerina-on-a-spring' on top of the instrument panel??

Nige

[BEagle]

God forbid someone was to have a sense of humour and actually enjoy throwing an airplane about the sky a bit and putting on a bit of airshow for folks.

That sort of attitude leads to this sort of thing:

r2OIxo00UeM

and this:

8V7z1l8t7hA

[The Helpful Stacker]

Nige321 - It's a dashboard hula girl like this (http://www.ecrater.co.uk/p/11529481/original-hawaiian-hula-girl-ceramic). They probably picked it up at an airshow over in Hawaii.

Not sure if its an approved mod, maybe that is something else folk can pour scorn on?

[chiglet]

Re Hula girl....
Have a look at "Space Cowboys".....:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Beagle,

Even by your standards that is uncalled for :=

[Brian Abraham]

Even by your standards that is uncalled forAgreed. All organisations have their less than desirable moments. Is there not a V accident that dare not be mentioned?

[SASless]

Rather than reply in kind....let's just say....QED.

There are tragedies enough to go around without dredging them up.

We all recall the bile spewed when the Blue Angels Lead removed himself after an altitude diversion despite no one being hurt. That was just one of the reasons I made the comment I did as the latest dose of this crap begged a response.

[NutLoose]

Suprised you posted those, bearing in mind that we have members of the US military visit here, and friends or family could have been involved it the last one..

[Andu]

While we're all putting the boot into the RAF, post #4 back on page 1 bears some comment:

How to fly a Herc!
Step 1. Get chopped from fast jets and/or rotary.

Step 2. .............Only in the RAF. In many other Air Forces, you need to pass the full fast jet course before being awarded your wings. I'll grant you that those at the top of the course usually get the FJ slots, but the fact remains, not everyone does it the RAF way of moving trainees onto helicopter or multi engine streams before they graduate from initial training.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Andu:

Don't feel bad... The RAF only has one slot for each discipline nowadays... Hardly worth spending the money having them all fly pointy things... Just decide which of the three is going where and train them appropriately... We don't all have money to burn you know, there's second homes in London and £10k bathrooms to be accounted for you know... :=

[Uncle Ginsters]

Beags, whilst not necessarily 'uncalled for' - there are too many tragic display accidents over the years to count - your previous is somewhat misdirected.

Both accidents you show have been studied in depth, even given the C-17 crash's recency, and have been found to be caused by far deeper reasoning and institutional failings than
God forbid someone was to have a sense of humour and actually enjoy throwing an airplane about the sky a bit and putting on a bit of airshow for folks.:=:sad:

[WillDAQ]

I just wonder whether the A400M would be capable of the same, or if the computers cut in to prevent it???

The allowed envelope is up to 120 degrees from level.

[Old Fella]

As one who has had the pleasure of being in aviation since age 17 and having flown many hours in the venerable C130 with Aussies mostly, the occasional Brit and a number of USAF crew on exchange I have to defend the Americans. They are fallible, just like the rest of us but they are also both professional and friendly, some say casual, in the way they operate an aircraft. Some of the comments on this forum posted by others who would not share my opinion smack of jealousy. The people flying the displays in the Blue Angels C130 and the Paris Airshow C130J would probably have flown together as a crew on numerous occasions and would know & trust each other. Their seemingly "non-standard non textbook" calls are the way they work as a team. Bagging them says more about the "baggers" than it does about the display crews, IMHO. BTW, in civil flying I encountered a few unconventional people from the Mother Country. Thankfully, very few.

[Ken Scott]

Hercules LHS pilot has control (of the aircraft) throughout the take off (unless it's a co-pilots take off of course which is somewhat different) it is just that for the first part he executes that control via the nosewheel steering and the copilot keeps the yoke pushed forwards to ensure the nosewheel does not leave the ground, when the LHS pilot moves his hand from the nosewheel to the yoke he states "my controls" to tell the co-pilot to let go (effectively if not actually), there is NO handover of control of the aircraft, so no response needed.

On a co-pilots take off the "I have /you have" calls ARE made as the co-pilot does not have a steering input initially, and when he states "I have" the LHS pilot will release the nose wheel steering and the co-pilot takes full control (of the aircraft)


At the risk of being 'Mr Picky', on the RAF C130J the Captain keeps his hand on the nosewheel steering (NWS) until rotate, in case of an abort which can produce a violent swing (whilst Vmcg should allow the pilot to keep straight using just rudder inputs following the failure of an outboard engine in practice the NWS is required). On a Co's take-off he stops controlling using the NWS when the Co says 'I have control' (which the Captain acknowledges in traditional fashion) but keeps his hand there just in case of an abort (or very rarely to keep straight after V1, but that's a whole new can of worms, Co's doing V1 take-offs).

It's been a while since I flew an older model C130 but I believe that we did take our hand off the NWS when the rudder became effective, as described above.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Bagging them says more about the "baggers" than it does about the display crews, IMHO.

I remember back in the early 90's, whilst still a rotary crewman, CRM training being introduced to the SH Force because of, words of the early days CRM facilitators, the appalling every day attitudes and practices at Bzn, the more I read the more I see their point.

[BEagle]

...the appalling every day attitudes and practices at Bzn...

Remind me how many accidents BZN were experiencing at the time? Or how many people their illegal low flying killed.....

I make no apologies for including those videoclips. Yes, there were some significant organisational failures, but in both cases the pilots wilfully exceeded the approved criteria, killing their crews in the process. That's what happens when 'hotdoggers' try going that little bit lower, tighter or steeper than has been sanctioned.

How many of you have actually attended the Flying Supervisors' Course?

Incidentally, Brian Abraham, if the 'V-incident' to which you refer was the crash of VX770 at RAF Syerston in 1958:

KGOY1jZGNHU

the current informed thought is that the aircraft had very probably been severely damaged by unreported, ill-disciplined aerobatics flown by RAF pilots on previous sorties and that the speed / height of the flypast was not particularly significant.

If you meant the 1978 Glennview NAS accident, you may well have a point.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Remind me how many accidents BZN were experiencing at the time? Or how many people their illegal low flying killed.....

The fact that the meaning of my post appears lost on you probably sums it up quite nicely :rolleyes:

[SASless]

Does Beags see the difference between a "planned" and surely practiced Demostration Flight...and some off the cuff unplanned hot dogging?

A friend of mine that retired from the USAF after a career of flying T-38, F-4, F-117, and F-15's...remarked how old and "bent" some of the 15's have become due to the stresses put on them during training when Pilots are pushing them hard. If that can happen to an F-15 why could it not happen to the Vulcan after all...we hear folks telling us stories about how they whipped the best USAF fighters in ACM in the old V Bomber.

Beags....was it you even that told us that?

Surely someone here remembers the account of a Red Flag exercise in Nevada where that is supposed to have happened.

Beags...surely you can grasp the difference as you seem to be suggesting there is a difference...but somehow in the translation it seems you find fault with the USAF Hercules Demo crew. The Blue Angel's Hercules crew are very professional, well trained, fly to very strict parameters, and have an enviable safety record.

Probably the most important aspect of the Blue Angel's show is they include the C-130 and show off its amazing capability...and thus make the show all about Naval Aviation and not just a mono-coloured jet trainer.

Even good Teams have bad days and learn from their mistakes....just because they are the "pick of the litter" does not make them infallible or in any way a "'Sky God".

Seeing in-cockpit videos of aero displays and observing how professionally done they are should evoke praise and appreciation and not green eyed slanging or whatever provokes some folks to poke sticks at these crews.

[friendlypelican 2]

I have to agree with M2 (#35) and Courtney (#37). Both of these clips show outstanding skill and crew co-op. Yes, our American cousins may seem verbose and casual at times but that is their way, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to ignore the skill embedded in these performances.
Beags, I agree with you 90% of the time, but on this one you have erred. I have seen both the 'J' and Blue Angels displays and can assure you that the spectators (both joe public and experts) were not "bored fartless after the first minute or so..." anymore than crowds were bored when the RAF 'Funbus' was enthusiastically displayed by the incomparable John R*****g!! (long time ago)
Lets not get into a 'willy-waving' contest, but to answer Beags' question and despite possibly smelling of wee, I have attended both the Flying Authorisers and Supervisors' Courses (even done tours in seperate AT Stanevals) and been part of properly trained and briefed display crews over 4 years at venues as public and varied as RIAT, Farnborough, Abbotsford and FIDAE. I reckon these American crews deserve our admiration (and a bit of envy).

[SASless]

This Cowboy stuff just continues unabated.....whatever can we say about these Yanks and their slack attitude about procedures and such!

Admiral Stanhope proceeded to “kick the tyres and light the fires”, strap himself into the back of a twin-seat F18 and accelerate off the front end. Safely recovered, and having “buzzed the tower”, Admiral Stanhope reflected on his experiences aboard the flat-top:

“Being catapulted from 0-150 knots in a couple of seconds is certainly a tick in the ‘Taskbook of Life’.


Taken from a post in the "Strait of Hormuz" thread.

[MightyGem]

Thanks for the explanations of "My controls".

[Old Fella]

There are those who applaud CRM and those who do not see the point of it. Personally, I believe that standardization is important especially in operations where one may fly with different people on any given day. Some operators in the military have crews who fly as a crew always, except for illness or such precluding that. I'll wager that in that situation there is a degree of 'non-standard' communication brought about by familiarization with each other. The display crews in both the Blue Angels and the Paris Airshow aircraft were obviously confident in each other performing their respective tasks. I would much rather fly with a crew which may be a little less than "word perfect" on intercom but could be relied upon to always handle the aircraft professionally, than to operate with one in which the words were always "by the book" but who would fly me into a mountain in IMC whilst using all the correct terminology. The display crews mentioned demonstrably know how to fly the aircraft despite their, to the purists, non-standard phraseology on intercom.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Old Fella,

Could not agree more and the notion, as a previous poster stated, that keeping your crew in the loop by talking your way through a detailed flying display profile makes that Captain a utter wanquerre is just plain wrong.

The guys patter may seem cheesy to us Brits as that's just "not our style" but thinking of him in such derogatory terms is thankfully so outdated as to be almost extinct in the modern RAF :ok:

[Old Fella]

SFFP, Amen.

[TBM-Legend]

March 24, 1969 : Six crew members were killed when an RAF C-130K, XV180, c/n 4196, crashed shortly after take off at Fairford in Gloucestershire. The aircraft was on a routine training flight when it stalled on take-off and plunged into a ploughed field 300 yards from the end of the runway.

September 12, 1972 : An RAF C-130, XV194, c/n 4214 veered off runway on landing at Tromsø/Langnes Airport (TOS), in Norway and ended up in a ditch. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.

September 10, 1973 : An RAF C-130K, XV198, c/n 4219, from No. 48 Squadron crashed at RAF Colerne in Wiltshire. It was carrying out co-pilot training when it was overshooting from runway 07 with a simulated engine failure when the other engine on that side failed. At that height (400 ft) and speed involved, the asymmetric forces proved too much for the crew to control and the aircraft dived into the ground.

...these are sad events however don't bag your friends...

[Ken Scott]

TBM-legend:

Sorry, and your point is? The most recent of your examples is nearly 40 years ago, before most of the current C130 force were born (sadly not all of us.....!) The way 'we' operated then is radically different to today - we no longer shut down engines to 'simulate' an EFATO for example, because of the Colerne incident, which shows that the RAF does learn and evolve its procedures in the light of experience. There is no point to be made relating to today's C130 operators, or the RAF in general, based on such old accidents.

Or maybe I just misunderstood your post?

[StopStart]

TBM-etc. I too fail to see the point of that list other than that is a list of Herc crashes. If it is prove that we Herc operators are slack and gash operators with a propensity for killing our mates then I'm afraid it's somewhat wide of the mark :hmm: If however its a demonstration of your ability to put "C130 crash" into Google and then wield Copy and Paste then bravo: a masterful tour de force.

[SASless]

For a more complete listing of ALL C-130 crashes world-wide.

Perhaps this might be a start on "How not to operate a C-130 Herc".:E


List of C-130 Hercules crashes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-130_Hercules_crashes)

[Ken Scott]

I've just spotted that someone inserted into my last post what EFATO stood for....In A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware etc is a decode really necessary?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

is a decode really necessary?

As the average poster here is generally not aircrew coupled with also not having pulled on a military uniform in umpteen years the answer sadly is yes :(

[TBM-Legend]

My point is simply that certain UK based "experts" on here make comments about the operation of other folks flying "habits" or the like as if they are the oracle. I suggest that those "experts" are from a system that too has had its share of unfortunate accidents. I guess it's OK to post videos of the B-52/C-17 crashes as representative of the failure of USAF systems and people.

Let's face it the RAF did not invent all facets of flying and as I said people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[BEagle]

As student pilots are taught during training, 'talking your actions' will ultimately mean that you will slow down your thought processes to the speed at which you can actually talk. Some students used to think that such talking confirmed to their QFI that they were doing what they'd been taught - the 'eager to please' syndrome... So whilst a few short "Rolling.......pitching.....coming back left...NOW" calls from the display pilot to his/her crew would of course be good, non-handling aircrew continuously calling height and speed informmation will soon blend into a blur of 'background noise' which risks important stuff being missed. If that's the way they're happy to fly, that's entirely their call though - I just don't think that it's really necessary. But I will not accept that irrelevant intercom calls during take-off in a ME aeroplane are safe.

Re. the 'background noise' of continuous commentary, on a lighter note one of the 1312 VC10K crew went flying with a particularly humorous C-130K crew at MPA one day. The C-130 navigator (not the most popular young lady, it would seem) kept up an incessant low level commentary, but the co-pilot (a wicked so-and-so) merely responded "La la...not listening..." every time she opened her mouth. It was, of course, just a wind-up - but she soon learned when it was appropriate to talk and when it wasn't. I also went flying with young Stoppers once in the C-130K on another trip at MPA and the whole crew's F3 affiliation commentary was very impressive indeed - short, sharp and to the point. Some very impressive tactical low level flying!

As for cowboy flying - a sadly tragic day at South Cerney in 1994 wised up more than a few people.

Regarding 'EFATO', I've recently heard people using the term 'PLATO' instead - 'power loss' after take-off. The idea being that rather than a clear cut engine failure, a more insidious partial failure could occur. Is that someone being rather too clever, or does it have merit?

[Ken Scott]

Not heard of 'PLATO' but I agree, far too clever - if it's producing any power you're better off then Perf A assumes, and if it was that insidious you might not even notice the reduction so no need to give it a name.

What would be the crew actions on 'PLATO'? Other than an awareness of the reduced power you wouldn't wish to shut it down. There are a number of failures on the C130J which result in reduced power, all of which allow for continued operation at least until the approach.

I guess it's OK to post videos of the B-52/C-17 crashes as representative of the failure of USAF systems and people.

I suspect the point of posting these was that as they were much more recent events they reflected current attitudes (rather than those of previous generations) and therefore reinforced the poster's argument that unnecessary intercom chatter was counter to safe operation. Or something.

[SASless]

Another couple of years, if Beags lives that long, and he can put our names in his logbook, as it seems we shall be quite familiar with every single flight he ever made.

Can ye not just concede a point Beags? Your way ain't the only way...never was...never will be!

Different Air Forces, Airlines, Air Taxi Operators, aircraft, taskings, languages, and patois not to mention Nationalities and thus general attitudes towards life and flying.

The rest of the World and Aviation apart from your particular small bit seems to be getting along quite well thank you.

[Basil]

we no longer shut down engines to 'simulate' an EFATO
Took long enough!
Having been almost killed at work and at play several times before joining the RAF at the age of 23 in the sixties, can't say I rated shutting down perfectly good engines. Not that my opinion carried any more weight than a couple of H atoms :)
Actually, I quite liked some of the dicking about: aeros, LL - instructor demonstrating pissing along a winding valley going from 80 left bank to 80 right bank did concentrate the mind. esp in the knowledge that the bangseat would have been as much use as Mrs. O'Connel's left breast if he'd fvcked up!

[highveldtdrifter]

I normally ignore Beagles ill informed statements about the C130, but having spent several seasons displaying the K and J, I can not allow him to slag off the display clips. Especially as I know the J pilot, and he is one of the most professional aviators I know.

As for the 'chatter about altitute', the achievement of height/speed gates is all part of safe display flying, as the Nimrod in the lake tradgedy showed. I thought both crews showed good co-ordination, and pretty much as we operate during a display.

In the RAF (surprise surprise) we do not fly the C130 like the VC10. We operate in a very similar way to every other Herc operator. Indeed many of our Tactical SOPs are USAF based as we deemed them best practice.

The issue of the 2 K's lost at Colerne and Fairford was a case of Hastings/Berverly EFATO techniques being inappropriately read across to the C130. Had we adopted USAF training practices from the outset these accidents would not have occured.

So Beagle, don't give our US brothers a hard time just because you have some personal problem with them. I now have the pleasure of working with your favourite European company, and I long for the days at Atlanta where the concept of a military mission is really understood.

[Old Fella]

I thought PLATO was a philosopher!!!!

[Finnpog]

No.
He is a racing driver and TV presenter:ok:

[Brian 48nav]

'Shewhomustbeobeyed' has just made me comfortable in my bathchair and brought me a cup of tea.

I don't know enough to get involved in this argument, but what this Herc' nav from the Dark Ages (67-73) would like clarified is; what were the good practices that the USAF were using in '67? Was all their EFATO and other emergency training done in the simulator?

If so, and considering the first 25 RAF Herc crews were trained in the US and there were several pilots around who had done exchange tours with the cousins and others on the Herc (one of the first Herc trappers,Mike Nash being one and the CO Changi 67-9 Grp Capt Merriman another, the latter having been a trapper with the USAF), why were these practices not taken up at the time by the RAF.

I wonder was it because all their Airships in those days were exWW2 pilots, and in some cases pre-war, and were either too proud or too arrogant to accept that other air forces were ahead of us?

Certainly if I could have had a £ for every time I read the EFATO check list I would have a tidy sum invested now! I don't recall ever experiencing one for real.

[zero1]

Well my Blue Angels video posting seems to have caused a bit of a fuss. From my viewpoint I was impressed with the aircrew co-operation and the chat that surrounds it. I see that for a few people here they were not impressed with the US style. However, the rights and wrongs of one style or another is not important because the crew in question fully understand each other and on a personal note I could understand the Blue Angels check calls for each part of the display .
I see the B52 and C17 video’s were posted and were off topic other than to point out that a failure in crew co-operation and safety checks result in an accident.

[SASless]

why were these practices not taken up at the time by the RAF.


Read most any of Beag's posts and you will find the answer.

Just like GPS..."that Yank DOD thingy!"

It is not just in the C-130 world the RAF refused to consider listening to other Air Forces.

The problem with "propaganda" is one must not believe one's own offerings!

[nice castle]

I think different doesn't always mean wrong, and having worked (and flown) with guys from various nations, I enjoy seeing what they find 'important' in the cockpit, as it is almost always something different to us.

I sense Beags doesn't like extraneous intercom chatter and likes sticking to the SOP. Sounds good to me.

The Yanks like to keep eachother informed, and try to enhance the available cueing from instruments with verbal patter - the display seems very 'gated' in terms of speeds and heights, and they have their (perfectly valid) reasons for doing that. Was it a little cheesy, ("SET IT!") yes, perhaps, but that active co-pilot, who knew his role and valued his own role in enhancing flight safety by looking outside to talk the frame round was passionate, proud and keen to carry out his duties to the best of his ability.
When teaching, I always thought the only thing I couldn't teach someone was how to adopt a good attitude. I could try to encourage, motivate and dare I say, inspire as best I can, but if I'm dealing with an idol little tool with a bad attitude, I'm on a losing wicket trying to teach them anything. How lucky I am that this happened exceptionally rarely.

Overall, 2 well polished displays flown by professionals, imho. But OMG, the roll axis in the Herc needs some encouragement, doesn't it?!:eek:

[grandfer]

Nice bit of low flying by the pair of RAF Alberts that flew through Chivenor yesterday just after 1400 hrs plus their low pass over Ashford village ! GREAT STUFF !!!
Let's have a few more - Grandfer:D:D:D:ok:

[kokpit]

I had this emailed to me by a guy I used to work with at Marietta, and thought it might be of interest given the topic.

Kev.

Skier 52 is executing a navigator directed Airborne Radar Approach on the Western Antarctic Ice Sheet.

Major David Panzera, LC-130 ski-plane pilot with the 139 Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, provided this compelling footage of a routine ski approach and landing into WAIS (West Antarctic Ice Sheet) Divide Science Outpost. As you can see from the footage, even fair weather days present challenges for ski-plane operations.

FARK.com: Fark Video Player (6857861) Skier 52 is executing a navigator directed Airborne Radar Approach on the Western Antarctic Ice Sheet. Let's drop into the cabin and see what's happening (http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/6857861)

[Old Fella]

During my time on the C130 with 36 Squadron RAAF we had a number of USAF exchange Pilots and Navigators and we sometimes practised Airborne Radar Approaches to the RAAF Richmond runway 10/28, in VMC. In my time there we had no precision approach with only a Tacan and NDB permanently available. Early in the piece we used to sometimes conduct a UDF approach from overhead. The USAF C141's used to, I am sure, use the ARA in fog down to minima. The roadway between Clarendon and Richmond paralleled the runway and the local "watering hole", Ma's Pub, just about had the roof taken off by a C141 when very late in the approach the crew realized that they had mistakenly lined up on the roadway and not the runway. Not long after that a series of radar reflectors were put in place. Never ever made an ARA in anger though. The clip reminded me of our first trips to McMurdo in '78, a year prior to the Air New Zealand DC10 loss at Mt Erebus. Thanks kokpit.

[juliet]

Just watched the display video and thought it was excellent! I thought the patter was pretty good, the nuisance cautions were all acknowledged, it was always clear what was happening.

Im certainly not a fan of some of the stereotypical American hoo-yah attitudes, particularly when on a flight deck, however I didn't see any of that in this clip. In fact I think that most of what was said during the display would also be said during an operational tasking, an opinion formed from saying many of the same things while flying operations with the RAF.

I think that for anyone reading this thread you should be able to tell quite easily from the posts who actually knows what they are talking about (Stoppers, Highveldt etc) and those that don't have a clue (Beagle etc).

J