Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One? (AVWEB)

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Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One?
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By Captain X
Pilot Ennui (http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_PilotsNotInterested_205957-1.html)

Captain X is a training Captain for a well-known regional airline and occasional correspondent to AVweb and our aviation publications. We're publishing his compelling observations as a guest blog. --Paul Bertorelli

We can't quite put our fingers on what's occurring in the industry right now. I've talked to my counterparts at other regional airlines and they all are seeing the same thing. For lack of a better description, a large percentage of newly hired airline pilots just aren't as excited about their career prospects as they used to be.

During our last hiring boom in 2007 and 2008, it seemed as if we had people climbing all over each other just to get an interview. Now, we'll frequently call 10 for an interview and only five will show up. I don't know if other airlines are hiring them before we can interview them or what, but it just seems the level of interest in our industry isn't there.

Of those who do come to the interview, we are appalled at how many show up and can't pass a written test. Our interview test isn't that hard. It's straight out of the FAA commercial pilot written. We have a couple of questions we took straight from the AIM. I'm amazed at how many people who want to be airline pilots struggle to interpret a TAF! I mean if you want an airline job, wouldn't you at least review the rules on holding pattern speeds and what an ILS Critical Area sign looks like?

Then we send them on to a basic instrument proficiency checkout in an Elite PCATD. Again, it's shocking how many people can't scan a basic six-pack. Is it because Cessnas today have G-1000's? I actually interviewed one candidate who got so slow on an ILS that he stalled and went out of control. He probably would have gotten lost in the holding pattern, except he never got there because he turned the wrong way when I told him to go directly to the VOR. He couldn't read the HSI well enough to know whether he was TO or FROM.

Even those who do get hired seem to lack a basic knowledge of operating in an IFR environment. One of my instructors came to me one day in the middle of a lesson and he was extremely frustrated. He said he couldn't introduce any emergencies to the crew he was working with in the procedures trainer because they were struggling so hard just to navigate. And this was with the FMS fully functional!

It seems that there are a lot of students who think "close enough" is close enough. We tell them on day one of Basic Indoc (and every day thereafter) how important it is to learn their callouts, flows and profiles. Twenty-one days later, they're still arguing with us that they have the callouts down "pretty well." In our program, they don't even go to the simulator until they've spent 13 days in the procedures trainer, and we still have students who struggle to get ready for the sim.

We've discussed this amongst ourselves and think there are many issues at work here: (1) Maybe the younger generation just has a sense of entitlement. I know I sound like an old man here, but there really is a perceptible difference in work ethic from young pilots today and new pilots just four years ago. One of my most senior ground instructors mentioned that it's just different this time around.

(2) The industry has driven the good people away: The last four years have not been kind to the airline industry. Maybe today's best and brightest have decided to go to medical school instead of pursuing their real dream of aviation. I live in the midwest and I think everyone around here knows someone who used to fly for either Delta or Comair who has been devastated by what happened at Delta over the last few years. A friend of mine on furlough tried to get a state grant to get re-trained with a 737 type rating so he could apply to Southwest. In the past, other pilots have been able to do that. This time around, the state of Ohio denied his request by saying that basically they didn't think there would be enough flying jobs in the future to support him and that his retraining grant needed to be spent pursuing another career. It doesn't take long for word to get around that flying isn't exactly the positive career choice it used to be.

(3) The upcoming 1500-hour / ATP minimum requirement for all airline pilots might be scaring away good people. The ATP rule won't go into effect until 2013, so this is a perfect time to get an airline job. In two years of flying 85 hours a month, it'll be easy to beef up the logbook. This may be the last time in history that a guy with less than 1000 hours has a shot at an airline career. But I'm concerned that some pilots have only heard part of the story and have given up, thinking the rule is already in effect.

(4) Now that we're all wired and connected to the cloud, we just process information differently: My company is taking a hard look at our training procedures to see if we can present the information in a way that's more exciting for tech-savvy pilots. Unfortunately, many regional airlines see their training departments as expenses rather than investments, so there's not exactly an open checkbook for new training initiatives.

(5) Economic hard times have made it difficult for instrument pilots to stay proficient if they're paying for their time themselves. I'll be honest; I don't know if I could have afforded to get all my ratings in today's fuel environment. I paid between $50 and $85 an hour to rent most of my training planes, and I struggled to do that. That was when avgas was about $1.50 a gallon. Throw in reduced hours at work or downright unemployment, and staying proficient takes a back seat. We're seeing a lot of people coming in the door who haven't touched an airplane for three years!

(6) No one is getting commercial pilots' licenses any more. The FAA will tell you that the number of commercial pilots licenses issued has plummeted in the last three years. It is only a fraction of what it was four years ago. That means that the regionals are going to be competing for a smaller and smaller pool of pilots. When that happens, the quality of the candidate pool remaining quickly drops.

Everyone on the inside of the industry sees it, but none of us knows exactly what "it" is yet. I personally think it's a combination of all the above factors.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but we are working hard to find one.

[extreme P]

What is the starting pay at the well known regional airline? Could that possibly be part of the lack of interest?

[Kharon]

Seems to me a deeper problem is that these fellah's soon will be running the game.

Thought it was just me getting older and crustier. But even one or two of what I calls the 'young' uns' are starting to play hell about the quality of "crew", out of the trees we have to work with.

Ayup!; 'tis a puzzle indeed.

[extreme P]

Seems to me a deeper problem is that these fellah's soon will be running the game.

And what is at the heart of this issue?

[Kharon]

Of the highest water. As said, it's a puzzle. But I agree with the concerns of the first poster.

I have seen 3 big and a couple of smaller “bubbles” of golden times for pilots. The classic was 1989 of course, house prices sky high, aviation booming, jobs everywhere, then Whoof, all gone, big recession. All change, tickets please.

The current environment 'feels' a bit like that time; bit too good, bit too much choice and a lot more 'one eyed' expectation from the all parties concerned.

Unless you're a complete 'aerosexual' flying is, these days pretty much seen as a 'non glamor', no public comprehension profession. There certainly are better lives to be had, better wages, better conditions, more time at home, etc. etc. If you love it, no problem, but if you have been brought up in the 'modern' era, where 1 or 2 choccy biscuits was a negotiation with Mum, rather than a hoped for concession for being a good lad, well there the problem begins.

There is list from not being able to fix a motor bike to 'easy exam passes', to the GPS and the demon automation out there, a mile long as to the reasons why. I dunno where to point the finger.

There is a problem and I worry that the guys with the skill and 'passion' to fix it up, will not exist within the next few years.

I do know one thing, the air is unforgiving. Mummy will not and cannot save you when it's truly 'game on'; and, until the concept of immortality is fully understood by junior pilots nothing will change, except the body count.

The hours are long, the tasks can be deadly, the pressures are still there, unchanged since Pontious.

The short answer, no idea. For the long answer, read the threads here for a snapshot. For some, it's wonderful, for others it's a confused mess.

For me – dinner time.

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's called "pay peanuts, get monkeys". The US regionals have been riding their luck in that regard for way too long now, with any luck it will be about to bite them in the ass.

[Ultralights]

I'm buzzing in with answer number 2.

I would love to fly for REX, but why even consider it when I get paid substantially more in maintenance! At present, only AME, in supervisory role, earning $80k base, working Monday to friday, and a free Uni degree thrown in. Far cheaper and more satisfying to buy your own aircraft, and enjoy flying. Still instructing part time as i actually enjoy that too.

If Rex or another employer that offers regional kind of flying, for similar money, I'll be there tomorrow. At the moment I can't justify the cost of upgrading to MECIR to land a job paying less than half I get now. And yet, I have no desire to get a jet job. Been in too many jump seats to realise watching the autopilot all day is not my kind of flying.

[jas24zzk]

I'm almost with you there Ultralights. Not very far behind you on pay either....and i only bash car bodies around.

I'd also be happy with a gig on SAAB's with REX, even night freighting, as I'm a night owl anyway. But like you say, the pay they offer doesn't even come close to being lucrative for me to go and finish my tickets. anything much bigger than the saab wouldn't be much fun.....we can leave the boings and scarebuses to those that think thats fun.
Heck even my former apprentice (finished his time in Dec) picked himself up a job recently....55k for a first year tradesman, pretty good.

I often wonder if these smaller regionals realised how many guys are out there that would be willing for a mid-life career change and would stick around 10-15 years or more for the right sort of dollars, instead of them having to retrain their entire pilot base every 2-3 years.

[4Greens]

If you wonder whether you should be an airline pilot, military pilot, pilot dont bother. You should take up something else.

[rocket66]

This is an interesting thread. I dont care about the money at all, I'm currently on 50k per year and cant stand my job. I work at an airport and stand watching the jets, regionals etc depart all day long wishing to christ I could do the same. I have all that is required by means of licenses and ratings but no hours to match.

Kids these days have to realise when you start in aviation your a small fish in a big pond. I can honestly say if I was successful I would go into it with wide eyes and a shut mouth, soak up all the experience from the guy in the left seat and work as hard as possible for the opportunity given to me.

And I'm only 29:eek:

rocket

[mcgrath50]

I have all that is required by means of licenses and ratings but no hours to match.

Well go out and get some hours!

you start in aviation your a small fish in a big pond.

I tend to disagree, aviation is a relatively small pond. I've seen people's careers set back by pissing off people during training and their first employer. After that life was very hard for them. The industry is small, people talk and know each other all over the country.

I just hope that we never get to the stage of the US. Sadly there are plenty of guys around who 'just want to fly'. Forgetting that in doing so they make it all that much harder to get that high paying job later in their careers as it won't be around anymore.

[E&H]

Yep first thing I though when reading that post was to go and get some experience...anywhere...it's pretty much what every one of us has had to do...anyway...

Interesting post...not sure why anyone has to ask the question about why the standards are dropping though...one poster mentioned "pay peanuts get monkeys"...that about sums it up. The industry is choking itself...I know of one pilot who has made it his business to go out of his way to tell people not to become a pilot...not so sure I disagree with him. There are other posts on this site which ask the question about integrity in the industry...many question the outlay for the reward...in the States it seems being furloughed is par for the course...back of the clock flights, it isn't the healthiest of lifestyles, not so good for partners and families, I've lost count of birthdays, anniverseries, school plays, christmasses that I've missed.

Crap pay at commencement (not uncommon for many industries) and crap conditions...if you're fortunate perhaps in the last 10 to 15 years of your career it will start to show some reward...by that time statistics show that you will probably be divorced.

I find it very difficult to be enthusiastic to anyone who asks me about a career as a pilot. Management continually reneg on terms and conditions...you have to fight for every entitlement...

I am fortunate in that I enjoy my present job and love the flying...It is interesting to note that in the last round of job offers (5 pilots for turboprops) none were under 30, average age was 38...in terms of experience we are getting to the bottom again. One of those recruits left after 4 weeks due the fact that the company didn't comply with the terms under which he was employed...we often interview but get no takers when they find out what the terms and conditions are...and yet still the company persists in offering these same T&C's...take it or leave it, so they leave it and the company still seems to not "get it"?

I find it really very easy to understand why younger people do not want to be involved in this industry...every time the CEO's appear on the TV saying how "well paid the pilots are and yet I must drive this pay and these conditions down" they are driving another nail into their industry.

My belief is that the industry will look more and more to developing countries for their flight crew...if you're smart you will get some training experience and go overseas and train them...same thing happens in the maritime industry, it's called flag of convenience.

Why are the standards dropping?? Can't believe anyone would even have to ask that question!!!

[The_Pharoah]

I gave up a good job two years ago to start flight training at the ripe age of 34, however as soon as I started training it dawned on me what I was giving up...and reading all the comments on here didn't help.

In the end I got back into my career and, 12 months later, I'm pushing $180k (I'm an accountant btw) living in Bris. I still want to fly but I realise I want to fly for the enjoyment so I'll just stick to getting a PPL and flying for fun (there's always flight simulator! :}).

Its a real shame that the aviation industry is like this when you consider the risk that pilots and pax take in flying a 100 ton piece of metal from city to city. I got on a Jetstar flight about 3 weeks ago and got placed in the front row (my flight the prev night had been cancelled) - the cockpit door was open and the couple next to me got the shock of their lives when the FO looked back and appeared to be aged 12!! :eek: I spoke to them about the cadet scheme and low hour pilots etc etc (this is after the latest probs in the news re cadets and making mistakes) and assured them that all FOs go through a rigorous training process as well as check to line - that sort of eased them a bit however I cetainly wasn't that confident.

Still...it was a bumpy flight due turbulence however the landing was one fo the best I've experienced so well done to the crew. Having said that...I don't think I could put my family on a Jetstar flight - I ALWAYS fly virgin now.

Either way, I sincerely hope they sort this $hit out for the sake of pilots and pax - unfortunately the higher up in the company you go, the less of a $hit you give for the people out on the line no matter what crap you spin. At the end of the day, everyone's out for themselves.

[j3pipercub]

ITW
Can't beat the job security!

Don't doubt that. It's the life security that is the issue with your job :\

rocket

You should care about the money, the wishing to christ doesn't pay the mortgage. Also, not meaning to sound harsh, but what position are you in to lecture new starts in aviation, when you are one yourself?

jas24zzk

Simple fact of the matter is with all the stary eyed wannabes willing to pay for a RHS gig, T&Cs will continue to drop. Btw, you sound like you would 'settle' for a night freight gig. I'll let you in on a little secret, night freight is aviations best kept secret.

j3

[extreme P]

If you wonder whether you should be an airline pilot, military pilot, pilot dont bother. You should take up something else.

Classic. If you have the capacity for thought and the ability to think you certainly should take up something else other than aviation.

[jas24zzk]

Simple fact of the matter is with all the stary eyed wannabes willing to pay for a RHS gig, T&Cs will continue to drop.

Yep and its something FWA should pull their finger out and outlaw...but then they'd probably get a 10% reduction in dispute calls from Aviation alone.

The other way to look at it, is to consider what the resultant of dog eat dog really is.


Btw, you sound like you would 'settle' for a night freight gig. I'll let you in on a little secret, night freight is aviations best kept secret.

Not quite, but if it was one of the 'conditions' to getting the job, it would get the same consideration of every other T&C presented, and then assessed as a whole.

I recently changed jobs, and had to go through this whole process. They made an offer, (verbally of course) and I put down in front of them what I wanted. 2 companies said no, 1 said yes, and the other 2 have since reconsidered. DOPES :D

The stary eyed ones, most the kids I feel very sorry for. Their parents, despite having been kicked and spat at by management for eon's have seriously failed them in educating/guiding them on Industrial relations and how not to be behind the rest of the crowd (have we got a soapbox icon here?)

hmmm time to rest my injured hand (gotta love workcover :ok: )

[pull-up-terrain]

As a youngster it has always been my dream to become a pilot but isnt sure if its worth the hassle. The problem i see with being a pilot is it really worth paying all that money $60k+ to get a $30k job in GA. Then after spending at least 5 years working your way from a little Cessna 172, to a large multi engine turbo prop you might be lucky and get a jet job at Jetstar on $85k per year.
As a part time job (im still at high school) i work at a concrete truck company driving forklifts and bobcats. The the guy who owns the business asked me what i wanted to do when i finished high school. I told him that i would like to become a pilot. He just said im wasting my time. He said why would you want to enter a dog eats dog industry when you could work for him and drive concrete trucks for $85k a year and he will pay for my Heavy Rigid truck licence training :ugh:. It just doesnt make sense sometimes.
The other problem i see is job security. Dad has been at Qantas for 35 years and he still worries about what Qantas plans to do with his job in the coming months, whether he should do LWOP, what airlines in the Middle East would be good if he does lose his job.

Being a pilot does look like a good job but it just doesnt seem to be a good career at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up in the future.

In the mean time i will be doing some work experience with BHP next week. Might see how that goes.

[flyinhi777]

Really I sometimes think pilots are the actual blame of the industry. To much of the downsides and not enough of the upsides. Yea you may make 20k a year for a while and yea the living conditions might not be well, and once again yea you may be starving at the end of the day, but I can tell you really any job out there is going to start out low, it may not be 20k low but I can tell you I look forward to flying jets. After reading through all of this and my dream is to be an airline pilot (earning my ppl right now) i still dont think you all respect your job. A couple years down the road I can almost bet you are in decent financial shape and you will look back and not regret what you and went through. Every one is always saying the grass is greener on the other side but in reality its not common. Do what you enjoy and love every minute of it because the next day you may not have that chance again.

[wrongwayaround]

I've been in the industry for decades now, progressed very quickly (lucky).

But I will say this - it's not the same as what I thought it would be. It's not as good as what I dreamt of as a child.

Sadly, pretty much every day a small piece of me wishes I chose the alternative career.

Sure, life could be a lot worse. Just not 100% fulfilled. Is anybody?

Senior Cathay Pacific captains still fight against the degradation of their T&C's.... Hell, Qantas pilots were locked out of work recently. Jetstar? :yuk: don't even go there.

Reg Ansett ran an airline the way all pilots LOVED. A gazzillion different aircraft types (progression)... Awesome crew meals.... Barely flying 30 hours a month; I remember some pilots found it hard to remain current! The money was truly unreal! BUT! This is when fuel cost was a little less than a p!ss in the ocean, airfares were sky high, with a huge proportion of travelers in business class, and general operating costs were lower.

My advice? Earn your money elsewhere. Fly for fun; you'll never get rid of the bug, no matter how hard you try! :ok:

[neville_nobody]

From my experiences people who are unhappy/bitter at the aviation industry because they got into it for the wrong reasons.

The ONLY reason you should become an airline pilot is because you actually like flying aeroplanes and enjoy aviation.

If deep down you want to be a pilot because:

1.You think you will be rich
2.You think you pull all glamours because you're a pilot
3.You think that the job is glamorous and you want to parade around in a uniform with a bunch of glamours entail.
4.Your parents want you to do it
5.You're a propeller head but don't really like flying or hard work

Then you are going to be bitter and disappointed. Most people who get angry at the industry fall into one of the above categories. Whenever I met someone who starts up with the aviation sucks routine I usually ask 'so why did you get into it' and usually the answer lies in one of the above.

If you like flying planes then go for it, otherwise go get a normal job and leave flying up to those who want to be there.

A couple years down the road I can almost bet you are in decent financial shape and you will look back and not regret what you and went through.

Not really it took me and most guys I work with more than 5 years to earn more than 50K. I had been flying professionally for 6.5 years before I got more than 50K.

Given that the graduate starting salaries are around 40-50K for year one you don't fly to be rich that's for sure.

[SgtBundy]

I work in IT, and I notice that a number of pilots on here seem to want to drop flying and move into that. Thing is for either job you are going to have to start at the bottom regardless of what you have done before. Sure the conditions might be a bit better in IT as a grunt tech support in Sydney rather than living in a tin shed in north WA, but either way you won't do the high paying or more technical roles until you have the experience and skills to show you can do it (or, know a mate - the universal progression method).

I would love to be flying instead - my work has gotten fairly flat now and upwards progression is limited for my skills, and I have no interest in management. For flying I am not interested in airlines as I feel I would be happier with more hands on flying (stary eyes and all that) - Ag flying appeals to me but I know that is a long road. From what I can see airlines would be the only way I could get parity with my current wages, but as above, that is for 12 years of highly specialised experience.

I don't mind taking a pay cut, but the single engine rates are just not practical with a wife, kids and mortgage in tow, and being tied to Sydney at the moment limits options even more so. My wife is going into teaching so at some point we might be in western NSW. If we can make up the shortfall that might be my opportunity but I am not holding my breath.

I would hope having a bit of maturity, experience (even non-aviation) and being settled with kids would overcome some of the issues highlighted in the article. I dont know, would an operator be more willing to trust a 32 year old making their way up with a family to build some hours with them vs an 18 year old indestructible?

[eocvictim]

National Average salary is $71,500, it will be 100k in less than 8 years. How much do you think you'd earn in an airline today and where do you think that'll be in 8 years? Maybe you need to look at where the states are, then think about it.

There are far more average joe notallent's per capita in IT, trades or the public sector earning at or above the national average than there are pilots. Not to mention these guys wages are going up, not down, work 9-5 (8-4, hell 7-5 and it's still better than most pilots hours!) have weekends off, public holidays off and even have the choice to spend christmas with family (if they can put up with them). Sure there are still roughly 50% earning less than $71,500 but are they of the same resolve as people willing to work as hard at their career and sacrifice as much as those who become pilots/IT experts/tradies/lawyers/doctors/etc.

This is why they are struggling to find reasonable pilots, other than those who have a passion for aviation, the capable people with the resolve also have the intelligence to do their research and weigh up the pros and cons.

Hopefully for those of us who have that passion it results in serious shortage in the top middle, ala eu 20 years ago :ok:

[Trojan1981]

I agree Eco,

I did it, decided after 12 months that it wasn't worth it, and am currently changing careers. One senior executive friend of mine called becoming a commercial pilot "financially retarded", and while I don't regret doing it (as it was a lifelong dream fulfilled) I would never again hang my hat on a career in the industry. There are jobs galore, I got every job I applied for and must have knocked back about half a dozen since I decided to give it away. Problem is they all expect you to work in the middle of nowhere for nothing. Also, unless your doing some really cool flying or derive some sense of satisfaction and purpose from you work, it gets boring after 500-odd commercial hours.

[Much Ado]

Before anyone gets too carried away with how pathetic pilot wages are compared to the 'average' wage in Australia they should read this...

What is the typical Australian’s income? « We are all dead. (http://mattcowgill.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/what-is-the-typical-australians-income/)

[Trojan1981]

Good article Much Ado.

The fact remains, however, that very few people who spend $70k of their own money training for a job in another industry would end up earning so little. I never qualified for the low income tax offset until I became a pilot (well, maybe when I worked at Maccas!). Even as a Train guard I made approximately $75k.

[SgtBundy]

I can't think of any other industry where the is such an outlay to meet the bare minimums. If you do Uni or TAFE you can get HECS or Ausstudy (or whatever they are now) to cover your education costs, while you work on the side to meet your living costs.

I know there are some degrees which have a flying component to them, but it wasn't clear to me that the flying costs were covered - some seemed to imply they were part of the course as long as you did them at their flying school at exorbitant rates, and many things were out of pocket anyway.

I suppose until there is a "skills shortage" or some political imperative to have a HECS like structure for funding pilot training, its always going to have that financial speedhump to entry.

[Much Ado]

HECS is still a debt you have to pay off.

Whats the cost of a Law degree these days - let alone the 5 years at Uni?

Not all Lawyers end up on, let alone start on, hugh money you know - the vast majority finish Law school and get a job proof reading contracts all day every day...or other repetitive, mind numbing, menial jobs.

All this thread proves, yet again, is the unrealistic expectations many young people have. You wanna make big money straight off the bat - well go to the mines and clean ****houses - aviation won't miss you.

[SgtBundy]

It is still a debt, but it is essentially interest free and you pay it off once you start earning. It allows you to get on with the training rather than decide if you want to eat or pay for your next hour. Its not about the money you get on completion, its about being able to do the training in the same way you can any other occupation.

[mcgrath50]

I think I worked out my flight training, which I did over two years, cost the same as my friends medical qualifications over something like 8 years. And yes, doctors don't start on much but they have had the large expense spread over a longer period of time making it easier to manage.

[neville_nobody]

Not to mention guarenteed employment for life. Most pilots will have to retire around 60ish with no guarentee of anything. Doctors will never have to worry about being unemployed.

[Gligg]

I'm not against levelling the playing field economically, but we only have to look to NZ to see how HECS funding for flight training would likely play out in Oz. Large initial uptake, followed by an already flooded market turning into a tsunami, followed by wide scale debt defaults, followed by the goverment spending taxpayers money for hearings on whether it was a good idea to begin with.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'm not against levelling the playing field economically

Well you probably should be.

HECS would have an additional outcome to those you outline - the cost of flying training would go UP substantially...as has happened to every UNI course you can think of from Arithmetic to Zoology.

There are few enough barriers to entry in this industry as it is - the last thing we need is 'free' Govt money flooding the industry with minimally talented, dreamers. And People who come on here and whine 'I have dreamed of being a pilot since forever but, gee, the starting pay aint great and I am wondering whether I'd be better off driving dump trucks in the Kimberly' are just that - dreamers.

You can't whine about low pay on the one hand - and usually from a position of ignorance as per the link provided by MA - and then bleat that pilot training should HECS subsidised on the other.

The ONLY people we want behind the controls are people who couldn't even BEGIN to imagine doing anything else.

Those of lesser dedication merely block up the system. Make it easy for the weaklings and you just raise the costs for the truly dedicated and talented.

[Gligg]

True, Chimbu, I should be. And I am against HECS coverage - it would be an expensive mistake in Australia. For those with the Dreams AND work ethic but limited means, I am a fan of merit based scholarships however.

[DTE]

Hi All,

I guess the 'for and against' of a career in aviation will continue along the lines of 'heart versus head' for many years to come.

Approached from a purely clinical perspective, the job may not be what it once was and therein lies the deterrent for many would-be pilots. It can call for a huge sacrifice, both personally and financially, without any guarantee of success. And yet, when passion comes into play, logic may well go on leave. Only the individual can really balance out what works for them.

Here are some more thoughts on the topic I wrote a while back. So you want to be a pilot? By Owen Zupp. (http://www.owenzupp.com/_blog/Owen_Zupp/post/So_you_want_to_be_a_pilot_By_Owen_Zupp/)

Cheers

Owen

[Trojan1981]

Hey Much Ado,

My wife's law degree cost around $38k. In her first year she was salaried at $60k, plus her employer payed for her PLT at the Sydney College of Law (effectively sponsoring her admission as a practicing solicitor).

A career as a pilot can be rewarding for many reasons, and I know I enjoyed my time as a pilot far more than the time I wasted on trains, but financial rewards do not seem to part of the package in Aviation. People should make their move into the industry with their eyes open.

One guy I used to work with told me with a straight face that he got into aviation for the prestige! He had been interviewed for several cadetships and not progressed beyond the first stage. He sat and failed exams multiple times, he could not tell the difference between an Airbus or Boeing aircraft; yet he was adamant that he wanted to be an airline pilot. He didn't even bother to study. Yet he still convinced his parents to fork out $70k on his training. And even after that he couldn't fly for s&$?. I fear that these are the types that remain in the industry when most of the talent goes elsewhere.

I'm not mudslinging or having a go at current pilots at all, but the article seems to support the argument that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[j3pipercub]

Awesome, thanks Trojan. Not having a go or mudslinging, but...

You sound like a little whinger that wouldn't do the hard yards that everyone (who isn't a cadet or a rare exception) has had to in the first few years. Sounds like you didn't do the homework that you're telling everyone else to with regards to wages and open eyes.

Also, unless your doing some really cool flying or derive some sense of satisfaction and purpose from you work, it gets boring after 500-odd commercial hours.

Gold, you'd know this how?

Problem is they all expect you to work in the middle of nowhere for nothing.

What? Upset you didn't get offered a command on a Lear out of the Gold Coast straight from flying school?

Ah well, I'll just log off and cry in the corner, wishing I had the talent like you to leave the industry...:{:{:{:{:{:{:{

j3

[Chimbu chuckles]

A mate of mine's son finished his CPL + ATPL subjects and an IR about 3 years ago. He didn't spend anything like the numbers you see thrown around - 80-100k cadetship/instant gratification BS - something more like 40k (pure guess). He did it over 12-18 mths working a part time job and with a LITTLE help from his father...and obviously living at home with few expenses...just heading out to the local flying school and doing what he could afford each week.

He then got a job out in the Solomons on **** money flying as a Twin Otter Co pilot then Islander command then Twotter command over 2 years or so. Worked his arse off - despite initial low pay he had enough to have a whale of a time, get pissed once a week etc. Loved every minute of it and proved himself to be a very capable pilot.

With somewhere between 2000-2500 hrs, and with a little help from contacts within VB he got an interview.

6 months or so ago he checked to line in the RHS of a VB 737 at 23 years of age. Several months before that when he was initially offered the job with VB his father and I had to talk him into it a little - he was having too much fun in the Islands - now he's having too much fun in Melbourne on a very acceptable wage.

My point?

It is utterly fallacious to damn the job of pilot as not worth the effort and expense involved based on those who pick the most expensive way possible in a effort to avoid getting their hands dirty....or on the whining of those who didn't have what it takes to succeed.

[frigatebird]

Well said, Chuckles, (as usual).
That is the sort of young fellow (lass) we want coming through the system - the ones who enjoy the ride, the ones who WANT to fly, do a good job, and see a bit of how the world works at the same time.
Sounds very similar story to a young fellow whose career I still follow out of interest, because at the time we worked together he had a similar attitude.

[Trojan1981]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion J3, and you're obviously very passionate.

I'm not wingeing, I don't regret a thing and I had a good time. I spoke with many friends before deciding to leave the industry. Most of them were, like me, ex-military and found civil aviation a bit mundane and unsatisfying. That is the main reason why I left and turned down quite a few jobs. I still fly casually for a couple of operators because I still enjoy it, just not as a career.

The majority of people I do know who have gone on to airlines have done so at great expense, and good on them if it makes it happy. But most will never be on par with a professional uni-grad for total earnings minus costs, not even close.

You ask how I know? Because I did it, I thought I made that clear. If you want to say something personal then PM me for contact details and we'll continue off forum.

[tarmac12]

Hate to spoil the party but flying training is available on Fee help (HECS) and has been for a couple of years. You have to do your training through a University course and it only covers aircraft hire.

Guy who started with us a couple of weeks ago did his training all on fee help. He owes about 60k now.

[Sassy91]

If you all think you are so smart then go and become doctors, lawyers, IT professionals! I mean who do you think you are!?!?! WE HAVE A F****** LICENCE!! It's not hard to self study ATPLs etc. then sit in the plane for 200 hours! Sure the average pilot is more intelligent than the usual folk but please don't get ahead of yourself!

Doctors will never have to worry about being unemployed

Go and become a doctor then! I mean its so easy to sit around uni for 6 years then come out and get a job as a surgeon! Right? Or go and become a lawyer. Compete against hundreds, if not thousands, of other students just to get into the second year and when you graduate go push papers for years but hey you are a lawyer!!! Even better go get a commerce or a business degree! That way when you graduate you can join THOUSANDS of other poor bastards working in cafes and shopping centers who can't find jobs but HEY, YOU HAVE A BUSINESS DEGREE!
You all seem to be doing so well for yourself! Everyone comes here saying how much they earn in IT. I think people who fly for living literally don't give a ****, because I know that it beats sitting in front of the computer all day writing C++ for a living!

[The Green Goblin]

Sassy,

Let's not get ahead of yourself.

Most commercial Pilots I know are very capable individuals. There are many different reasons why they choose the career, but ultimately the stayers are the ones with the grit and intelligance to stick it out.

These same folk could choose just about any career they set their minds too. Many had the academic results for entry into just about any university program they saw fit.

However most of us fell in love with aviation. We fell in love through a flight deck visit as a kid, or a family member that was/is a Pilot. Some fell in love watching them go overhead, maybe even on that first holiday with the family. We all fell in love with it hard.

So far to chase my dream it's been financial suicide. I spent everything I had on the dream. It's cost me a marriage, a domestic partner, my sanity :8 and the privlidge of being near my family. I've moved 9 houses in 5 years all rented. I don't think I'll ever be able to go home. Hell, it's a big world out there, I don't even think I really want to.

I didn't get to spend money on cars, houses, backyards and shares like my friends did. I go to their houses now, they have kids, outdoor kitchens with pizza ovens and granite bench tops. They are building ponds, installing pools and spas, home theatres, all sorts of things. They do up old cars, buy boats and jet skis, plus numerous other recreational toys. They talk about taking kids to child care, the next door neighbor who gives them the whoops, the family holiday to Bali or the inlaws and the old school days. It's all pretty laborious to me.

I own nothing except a ten year old car and some dodgy furniture. The bank balance is only just starting to recover after the last decade in the financial wilderness, but let me tell you this. The people I have met, the things I have seen, the places I have been and the aeroplanes I have flown have been amazing. I am rich with experience, rich with memories and my non aviation friends are fascinated when I speak about it. It's certainly more interesting than the shopping trip to kuta!

While I have some regrets about some of the decisions in my personal life, I get to fly an A320! It sure beats working for a living! And you know what? All of my friends call me the lucky one! I think I am too.

Good luck with it all folks. The stayers always get there. This struggler certainly did!

[Trojan1981]

Well said GG. I think you put it very succinctly.

[b_sta]

A positive post about being a pilot? Surely you jest, GG :D

All those complaining about how bad they have it should eat their words, quit the industry, try something else and see if they can stand the monotony of flying a desk 9-6, five days a week.

[Sassy91]

Moral of the story.
Start young so you don't have to go through "financial suicide" when you are 30, have a wife, kids and a mortgage.

[Di_Vosh]

The problem of comparing careers is that no-one ever looks at the complete picture. Everyone just sees dollar signs *, guaranteed employment, or whatever they want to see without seeing any downside.

* (taken from the latest tabloid press about what that profession earns)

Has it occurred to some of you that in a mythical place like PDrRuNe or PLLBRuNe there are doctors and lawyers complaining about their work and how they should become a pilot because we all earn $500k p.a. and work 25 hours per week?

It's obvious that some of you guys have absolutely no idea about other professions, except what you get from the media. (And we know how accurate the media are... :ouch:)

I know a few Doctors and Lawyers and I was an I.T. professional for 18 years. Trust me; it's not all rosy in those professions.

Medicine: Years at Uni, doing one of the more expensive degrees. Work as an intern, then resident at a major hospital. Reasonable wage, but you're working over 80 hours per week and have to study as well. One of my friends had 120 hours as the record he'd worked in a week!
The hours don't drop to something reasonable (like 45 hours per week) until a few years have gone by, and if you want to get to the dizzying heights of Surgeon (be called Mr, instead of Dr) there are years more study.
Someone mentioned Guaranteed employment? Sure, but where? You've got to be in the top 10% to get based in a capital city hospital.
GP? Sure, plenty. Mainly in the country, but you're working well over 40 hours per week; high pressure environment (lots of patients); and poorly paid and lower status than other branches of the profession.
And any medical discipline requires continuous study!

Law Depends, really. Assuming you've got the marks (or connections) to get into a major firm you'll get well paid, but will work well over 50 hours per week for the next ten or so years (assuming you want to become a partner).
Plenty of other legal work out there. Want to become a Barrister? Easy! Join the queue. Problem is, you wont earn much unless you've got solicitors behind you putting work your way. Many Barristers don't earn much at all until they've established a reputation. Some never do.

I.T. It's been a little while since I left I.T, but while graduates can earn up to 60k, many more earn in the 40's - 50's. Full-timers can expect to work more than 40 hours per week (no overtime) and generally don't earn above 100k until they're very senior. Contractors earn more, but you've got to maintain not only your skill set, but you've got to gain experience in the skill set (very hard to get a contract in a skill that you've just learned; they want some years experience in that skill).

Almost all the people I knew in their 20's have changed their careers. All the people I knew in I.T. have either left or are unhappy in their workplace but can't leave due financial reasons. Every lawyer I knew who went to Law after uni are now in other professions (except my friend who quit Blakes after becoming a partner. She is now the legal rep at a homewares company). Of my doctor friends, only one is still happy with his choice. He's now a Surgeon, but still works two days per week in Ballarat as there isn't a full-time position for him in Melbourne. One is a GP in Wangaratta (couldn't get a job in a Melbourne hospital), one is an anaesthetist and hates it, and the other one "dropped out" and is now working for MSF. Her job is very rewarding and challenging, but she earns less than $20,000.00 per year.

Moral: Be careful when comparing with other professions. You might not be as badly off as you think you are.

DIVOSH!

[The Green Goblin]

You just have to have a goal and a series of gates that you need to achieve x by.

If I wasn't in a major jet airline by 30, my backup plan as I loved regional flying was to head home and fly for a well known major regional, or dust off the instructor rating and instruct until I got in.

As I spent longer and longer in the industry, the plan slightly changed to perhaps include the possibility of the floats in Cairns wearing pluggas and a Hawaiian shirt to work every day :ok:. Or even at one stage flying a choppper! That may also have been the sanity issue that I spoke about earlier too :}

However, I made all the gates that I had picked for myself and just scraped into a major airline before my 30th birthday after spending some time as a regional Captain.

Was it all worth it?

You bet :ok:

What was the best flying? Single engine piston charter without a doubt, it was very very satisfying!!!

Most satisfying moment? The fourth bar on my shoulder in a regional. I worked bloody hard for that!

It's not the size of the dog that determines the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Keep fighting!!

[Kharon]

We all fell in love with it hard. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

That's it. M tas all.

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;

My bold, bugger off if you don't love the game, warts and all.

Walks away scratchin arse, muttering "bloody shamatuers".

[Super Cecil]

No :hmm: :rolleyes:

[DancingDog]

Hey guys,
Do you guys find the job kinda boring, especially on the long haul flights, because your sitting there for a few hours at a time staring at an instrument panel? I know single and small twins are kinda different, I'm just after a general view for most commercial aircraft. I suppose it beats staring at a computer all day though.
Cheers

[jas24zzk]

The problem of comparing careers is that no-one ever looks at the complete picture. Everyone just sees dollar signs *, guaranteed employment, or whatever they want to see without seeing any downside.

* (taken from the latest tabloid press about what that profession earns)

Has it occurred to some of you that in a mythical place like PDrRuNe or PLLBRuNe there are doctors and lawyers complaining about their work and how they should become a pilot because we all earn $500k p.a. and work 25 hours per week?

It's obvious that some of you guys have absolutely no idea about other professions, except what you get from the media. (And we know how accurate the media are... )

I know a few Doctors and Lawyers and I was an I.T. professional for 18 years. Trust me; it's not all rosy in those professions.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Its a serious case of 'the grass is always greener'

If you ever want to know what career NOT to enter, ask someone in it.
The guys sitting around here blowing steam about everything bad that is aviation, have probably never worked at another career.

I can sit here for hours and tell you everything bad about panel beating, and why you should never let your kids enter the industry.......as i sit here nursing my hand injury that has healed enough now to reveal how much nerve damage i inflicted. Instead, i'll do a short comparison.

PB. I start the day clean, end it filthy.
Fly. I start the day clean, end it clean

PB. I have to kneel down for extended periods, and struggle to stand again.
Fly. I might have to kneel down to check something in my preflight, but I am not down long enough that my knees seize up.

PB. Every job/task carries an injury risk. At last count, there are over 45 stitches in my body directly related to work. (we won't count the ones from growing up)
Fly. Your biggest injury risk is RSI from writing, falling off a wing or having a cowl whack you in the back of the head, because you were too lazy to secure it properly whilst doing your engine checks.

PB. Customers that think they know something about what you do, and ask you to do the impossible....i.e make something fit that not even the factory can get perfect....read.. all you commodore owners, go and have a CLOSE look at how well the front and rear bars fit. then try telling your repairer it fitted better than that from new! :ugh:
Fly. You only have to get your customers to their destination intact. they won't complain...not to you anyway, and they won't ask you to do the impossible.


Management...same for both careers.


Any career is what you make of it.

[jas24zzk]

Autopilots ruins it?
Hey guys,
Do you guys find the job kinda boring, especially on the long haul flights, because your sitting there for a few hours at a time staring at an instrument panel? I know single and small twins are kinda different, I'm just after a general view for most commercial aircraft. I suppose it beats staring at a computer all day though.

There is more to a pilot career than flying the aeroplane.
What about flight preparation, keeping up with the latest techniques, rules and laws?

Being a pilot, even a recreational one, isn't for the mentally lazy. There is ALWAYS something new to learn. Always something to keep the brain occupied.

Sure sitting up the front of a high speed test tube isn't for everyone, but there is more to aviation than hauling self moving freight.

[flyinkiwi]

Moral of the story.
Start young so you don't have to go through "financial suicide" when you are 30, have a wife, kids and a mortgage.

I know a couple of blokes who started flying from scratch in their 30's/40's. One is an FO at a regional, the other is 2IC at an Aero Club and going for his A Cat (the irony here is he got his PPL after I got mine but he will most likely be doing my next BFR). I take my hat off to these guys because they found their calling rather late in life but have pursued it relentlessly regardless.

[Trojan1981]

Quote:
Autopilots ruins it?
Hey guys,
Do you guys find the job kinda boring, especially on the long haul flights, because your sitting there for a few hours at a time staring at an instrument panel? I know single and small twins are kinda different, I'm just after a general view for most commercial aircraft. I suppose it beats staring at a computer all day though.
There is more to a pilot career than flying the aeroplane.
What about flight preparation, keeping up with the latest techniques, rules and laws?

Being a pilot, even a recreational one, isn't for the mentally lazy. There is ALWAYS something new to learn. Always something to keep the brain occupied.

Sure sitting up the front of a high speed test tube isn't for everyone, but there is more to aviation than hauling self moving freight.


That's very true Jas, I think the point of the original article in the first post of this thread is that aviation is attracting the mentally lazy and otherwise unsuitable to it's ranks, and losing those better suited to other industries.

I do love aviation, but have never understood the attraction of the airlines. My favorite moments in aviation have been when I was flying at low level over bushfires, through valleys in Timor carrying supplies or MEDEVACs, dropping supplies and life rafts to the crew of sunken yachts and dropping LAPES platforms from Caribous flying at 6' AGL in firebreaks. Never has cruising S & L in the flight levels held any appeal. So yes, I should be out, and hopefully will be soon. It has nothing to do with not putting in the hard yards though.

Di Vosh, you are quite right with regard to other professions and greener pastures. My wife has perhaps had a charmed run since graduation. She is on six figures after just four years in the legal industry and only works 9-5 Monday to Friday; with every weekend and public holiday off. That's working for a very large company (approx. 400,000 employees).

For those of you that do fly airliners, or desire to, what is it that attracts you to it? I have asked friends who fly them but I never get a straight answer. One who flies Dash 8s likes the hand flying and short sectors. Another who flies A320s says it's all about picking up women! (he has sacrificed a LOT to get there). So what is it for you guys?

[tinpis]

A320s says it's all about picking up women!

How does he get them through the locked door?

[Trojan1981]

Quote:
A320s says it's all about picking up women!

How does he get them through the locked door?

:):):}:}:ok:

[Sassy91]

My wife has perhaps had a charmed run since graduation. She is on six figures after just four years in the legal industry and only works 9-5 Monday to Friday; with every weekend and public holiday off. That's working for a very large company (approx. 400,000 employees).

Well good on your wife then! We get that she earns more than the average pilot. The problem with you and most other people in this topic is that you are counting someone else's money! If flying is what makes you happy then do it!

[Centaurus]

One guy I used to work with told me with a straight face that he got into aviation for the prestige!

Quite common in Asia where prestige is important in family life. Most are not in the game for love of flying. In fact in China the "authorities" are well known for visiting universities and ordering aircrew medicals on students and those that pass are streamed into being either military or civilian pilots. I know this because I have been involved with some of their simulator training.

[Captain Dart]

Some years ago I had among my passengers from Asia a large group of newly-recruited China Southern cadets on board for Perth, for training in W.A., all with shiny new pilot cases in hand.

I saw them off at the door of the aircraft on arrival on a gorgeous Perth day to wish them well, but they had expressions on their faces as if they were lambs going to the slaughter, instead of embarking on training to be an airline pilot, something that many Westerners would 'kill for'. I got a smile out of one, who I assume would have gone on to be 'the pick of the litter'.