A different QRA question

[Shaft109]

Been reading with interest the tales of fighter QRA.

My question is were any strike aircraft held on similar QRA after the Vulcan?

e.g. The Tornado GR1 or Bucc?

[air pig]

I believe Buccaneers and Tornado'a held QRA in RAFG after the Jag, and shelter vaults for the WE 177 where built at Marham on 2 and 13 Squadrons HAS sites. Before anyone says about per sec, look in RAF yearbook about the latter.

Happy New Year to all.

Air pig.

[Courtney Mil]

You're right, Air Pig (nice handle, by the way :ok:). And not too many sec issues here. WE177 hasn't been near those a/c for years.

[Mach Two]

Anyone here recall correctly the sticker on the Jag bomb story? Or is it not repeatable?

[NutLoose]

Also drawn in the dust.... Kicked a We177 at Elvington, got some looks from peeps and had to explain that in my day it was erm a bit verboten...

[scarecrow450]

Did the same to one at Cosford and one at Hack Green. The workers were happy after I said I was licensed to kill when guarding them many years ago ! :eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

The V-Force ceased to provide QRA at midnight on 30 Jun 1969 target material was returned to the Vault at that time as that particular Oplan terminated at that time. The crews opted to remain available until 0800 the following morning when the weapons were made safe.

The Buccaneer force in UK had two sqns but these were not required to hold QRA. The Buccaneer and F4, and eventually the Jaguar, held QRA in RAFG. I don't know when that ceased.

[Dan Winterland]

You had to be endorsed as a multi level secret squirrel to even look at the things in the old days. I was gobsmacked to see one on display* by the Tornado at Hendon a few years after I left. I didn't know they had been declassified by then!

*Training round - obviously!

[wiggy]

You had to be endorsed as a multi level secret squirrel to even look at the things in the old days

How true - I'm not sure how well the concept of "Need to Know" is understood in these days of Wiki and Face book.

As a Cold War Air Defender the first WE177 I ever saw (indeed the first special weapon I ever saw in the metal) was the one you describe on display at Hendon, some 20 years after I left the RAF.

[SRENNAPS]

The Buccaneer and F4, and eventually the Jaguar, held QRA in RAFG. I don't know when that ceased.

We (the Tornado Sqns) held QRA in RAFG following the Jags and it ended around 1987/88 I think. I was with the Goldstars when the announcement was made and we were all pretty upset because the QRA duty was fabulous with lots of free vids and plenty of pies and cakes made by your own personal cook :). I was posted back to UK before QRA totally ended hence why I cant remember the exact date.:{

shelter vaults for the WE 177 where built at Marham on 2 and 13 Squadrons HAS sites.

We also had the vaults built at Bruggen, but they were never used. The story was that it would have been too expensive to cancel the building project and after they were built they were then filled in with concrete i.a.w. the treaty agreed between us and the Reds.

[scarecrow450]

Even wprking as a secret squirrel the only time I saw one was on a slide I found in an old cabinet ! Thought it looked like a funny fuel tank until my boss took it away and told me to forget what I saw. When I saw on in Cosford, just after they were declassified, I nearly had a fit but then read the display board next to it !!

[NutLoose]

You had to be endorsed as a multi level secret squirrel to even look at the things in the old days


Obviously that would be a grey squirrel, red ones would be verbotten....

So I must have been vetted then...... never saw any James Herriot types about... :p

It was only in the last few years that the locals around Bruggen found out what used to be there, so we obviously kept the secret well...

[HTB]

What follows may be complete bolleaux as I've signed a form where I declare that I've forgotten everything related to this topic.

The Laarbruch QRA aircraft (and I guess all the other Tornado bases that held Q) were loaded specific to the allocated potential mission, so number of shapes ranging from x-y. Bear in mind that the loaded aircraft only saw the light of day as the HAS door opened for access by the ground/aircrew for servicing, loading, acceptance, etc, so we all knew what was hanging on. Nevertheless, to protect further from prying eyes (inside the HAS, remember), hessian screens were erected around the under fuselage area. So it can only have been to stop the RAFP corporal, or his handler the dog, from having a sneaky peek at what was to be carried).

Obviously we never scrambled with a shape, but test callouts to time RS response were not infrequent (but generally not at weekends). Memory might be playing tricks here, but I think that occasionally an unloaded aircraft may have been allowed out to fly prior to a significant servicing interval; this would involve some well coordinated gate opening procdure and loads of rozzers.

As a fairly minor cog in the squadron wheel, I got preferential treatment by being allocated extra Q - much as all the other juniors when the seniors had more important things to do - which was actually not to burdensome as you could catch up on all sorts of trivia, eat well and not be bothered by the usual niff naff line of sight tasking outside the wire. Some keen young officers even took ISS study material with them, which boggered up the balance for the bridge/uckers schools.

Aaah, memories from the dark side, or the "good old days".

Mister B

[Courtney Mil]

Hello, Mr. B. Haven't seen you around for a while. Happy New Year!

Look away now.

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox/images/chapter16/we177a.gif

WE177

As it happens, Wikipedia has quite a good article on it. As for types, they list the following:




Intended clearance by 1970 for other types of aircraft and delivery methods included:

Handley Page Victor (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor) Mk.2 - WE.177A/B - Laydown, Ballistic, Retarded.
Avro Vulcan (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan) - WE.177A/B - Laydown, Ballistic, Retarded.
Vickers Valiant (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Vickers_Valiant) Mk B.1, P.R., K.1., P.R.K.1 - WE.177A - Laydown, Ballistic, Retarded.
TSR-2 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/TSR-2) - WE.177 A/B - Laydown, Ballistic, Retarded, Loft, Dive Toss.
Canberra (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra) Mk.B.15 & B.16 - WE.177A - Laydown, Ballistic, Retarded, Loft.
Blackburn Buccaneer (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Blackburn_Buccaneer) Mk.2 - WE.177A - Laydown, Loft, Retarded.
Sea Vixen (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Sea_Vixen) MK.2 - WE.177A - Laydown, Loft, Retarded.
Wasp (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Westland_Wasp) - WE.177A - Depth Charge.
Wessex (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Westland_Wessex) HAS.3 - WE.177A - Depth Charge.
Wessex HUS - WE.177A - Depth Charge.
Ikara (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Ikara_(missile)) - WE.177A - Depth Charge.
P.1154 - WE.177A - Depth Charge. (RN)
P.1154 - WE.177A - Laydown, Loft, Dive Toss. (RAF)
Nimrod (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Nimrod) - WE.177A - Depth Charge.
Later, the following aircraft were armed with WE.177:

Panavia Tornado (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado) - WE.177 A/B/C - Laydown, Loft, Retarded
SEPECAT Jaguar (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar) - WE.177A - Laydown, Loft, Retarded
Harrier (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier) and Sea Harrier (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Sea_Harrier) - WE.177A - Laydown, Loft, Retarded
WE177A was the variable yeild .5 or 10kt original (useable as a nuclear depth bomb). B was an interim model. C was the proper 200kt version.

There, it's all declassified now.:ok:

[ACW599]

>There, it's all declassified now.<

There's quite a lot of material on WE177 and others at nuclear-weapons.info (http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/)

[Pontius Navigator]

Courtney, the B-model was actually the first and biggest. The yield was IRO 450kt. (new source)

[Pontius Navigator]

The first public appearence of the WE177 was at RAF Finningley, probably around 1968-69 at a BoB day when they displayed a trials round, but painted white overall, standing on its nose in the hangar. It was titled the 'new nuclear age' or some such.

Obviously you had to be a secret squirrel to actually know what it was. It was an instrumented round from Trial 505.

There was hell to pay :)

[Courtney Mil]

Thank for correcting me, PN. It wasn't a field I was ever involved with. Although I do recall one interesting story from the 80s involving one F4 crew, night flying, chasing hours for the Boss and very bored. In three tank fit, the F4 told you that it was sensing the centreline external fuel tank by illuminating the TK light.

The jets still had all the "special weapons" kit in them even though it hadn't been serviced or used for years. So, our bored crew decided to pretend to be a nuclear bomber crew and made all the switches (as they imagined they should be made) including the "consent" switch in the rear cockpit.

As pilot approached his imaginary release point and "pickled" there was a dull thud from the bottom of the jet and the TK light went out. So, if you tell the old girl she's got a bomb on the centre station and tell her to drop it, don't be surprised if she does.

Imagine the fun they had explaining that when they got home.

[HTB]

Hello Courtney - Happy New Year to you (and all other prunes of course). I was busy over Christmas being crawled over by grandchildren, so not much time for the essentials of life (such as trying to find more info on when and where the next major conflagration will take place - might find the answer in M2's book...or maybe SAM ex 15 is digging out the current intel).

So that's what a nuclear bomb looks like. I used to keep my eyes tight shut whenever I got near one, cos they were very secret back then (and even more secret when I flew in Vulcans); it made getting the SEF key in the right hole a bit tricky, though.:cool:

Mister B

[Yellow Sun]

Courtney,

Wiki is as (in)accurate as usual, this site (http://nuclear-weapons.info/) is far better researched. For those who wish to delve into associated areas you may wish to peruse The Royal Air Force Historical Society (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/journals.cfm) journals 20, 22A, 26 and 33.

Incidentally, the Nimrod was never scaled for the WE177, it used the US B57 weapon. Anyone feeling nostalgic about it may acquire a model here! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mk-57-Multi-Purpose-Nuclear-Bomb-Desk-Wood-Model-Large-/390116259039)

YS

[Courtney Mil]

Mr B, weren't they white then? :ok: SAM ex 15 is currently active on the Hormuz thread. Getting close to fisty cuffs there.

Thanks for the link Yellow Sun - appropriate name here! I shall read up. Probably should have done that before I opened my mouth here. Ho hum!

[HTB]

How would I know; I told you I kept my eyes shut;)

You might be thinking of the colour of the AEO's stick...

Mister B

[E-Spy]

IIRC we used to use one as a bench in the 31 Sqn bar.....

[Jimlad1]

There is a WE177 drill round lurking in a quiet corner of Main Building - amusingly some wag has stuck a large red button in it...

[BEagle]

Those of us who were involved in the nuclear role are still a bit reticent to say much even though the weapon is declassifed nowadays. All that TS stuff, 2-man principle and need-to-know, I guess.

The theory course at a the far end of a bona jet location not far from Stamford was very interesting. Arrive and have a few beers in the OM, then onto the bus the next morning to the training site. Lots of armed coppers and pass showing, then down to business.... However, a bit of a sore head and a Ch Tech trying to explain the Pauli Exclusion principle, mass defect, mach stem effect, fission-fusion-fission reactions...all rather too much at 0830! Still the movies were really rather amusing - and as for the idea of a gold visor....:hmm: They had a fascinating museum and the difference in size between earlier weapons and the all-electric bucket of sunshine was quite astonishing!

If you were regarded as being a member of one of the better squadron crews, it was quite common to find that you were the crew who had to accept a 'shape' on exercise - then hand it over to the custodians at endex, extending the embuggerance somewhat.

Worse than the F-4 crew who delivered a centreline tank was the USAF F-4 crew who managed to make some almighty switch pigs on the range, came down the dive and pickled off a SUU 23 gun pod. This was especially unfortunate for a nuclear-assigned crew whose weapons checks had to be 100% perfect....:eek:

Courtney, I understand that, after a couple of incidents on the 80-update F-4 when some WIWOGA persuaded the front seater to fiddle with the stiff and rusty switches on the centre pedestal, the word from On High was never to touch anything except the Centre StaSel button - and only when over the sea - because the integrity of the ancient wiring could not be assured?

[NutLoose]

Spent many an hour trying to seal leaking fuselage tanks on Jags so they wouldn't drip or leak for the period it was on Q and believe me that wasn't easy and it was bad form to drip on them....

[Courtney Mil]

BEags,

Indeed that was th case. AVM On-High (double-barrelled in fact) was quite clear about that. CTR STA SEL to power up the gun and touch nothing else. Diagram below, left rotary switch was the offending article. With that at OFF, none of the other bombing switches did much. It was also wire-locked so that stupid pilots couldn't fiddle with it and accidentally select SPL WPN (whatever that meant). Although, once when I was checking that the wire was intact (;)) I did find that the ends of the wires were just stuffed back through the holes. Almost as if someone had been playing with it. Apparently, most of them were like that! Tut! What were those young pilots like?

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/F4-pedestal-panel.jpg

If you don't want someone to mess with something, the worst thing you can do is tell them not to mess with it!

[BEagle]

'SPL WPN' is huggy-fluffy spam-speak for 'Special Weapon', a.k.a. 'Hydrogen Bomb'....:hmm:

Moving some of those switches could, I understand, create steering cues on the HSI, ADI and even the LCOSS. Nasty mud-moving stuff, not the sort of thing with which any self-respecting air defence mate would wish to become involved.

[Courtney Mil]

BEags,

No! It can't be. I always thought it was for fireworks or some display stuff. Hydrogen bombs were OK in for Peter Sellers, but not me.

As for the LCOSS and stearing information, I just left it all in PRIM/TCN so that all the dials made sense to a simple air defender. Anything else made it all go crazy. No one ever knew what all the other stuff did. It was just a MacAir sales ploy!

[Pontius Navigator]

The original colours were Green for the trial 505 rounds which were essentially instrumented packages to test the weapon in a live environment, White for the operational round and a very pleasant dark blue for the drill round.

I suspect the change of colour from White to Green for the operational round occurred at the same time as they were carried externally. The original white was to reduce heat effects should the weapon be exposed to a friendly burst after release.

[Wensleydale]

Buttons not for pushing and QRA.....

Never used on the Shackleton was the facility to put the APS-20 radar into sector scan - apparently it weakened the bearings in the scanner and spares were hard to come by.

Come a QRA sortie and the crew were having difficulty picking up the contacts (nothing new there) until the TACO has the bright idea of putting the radar into sector scan - after all, it was an "operational sortie" so the FOB did not apply. Imagine the poor Russian ESM operator sitting in his Bear D. He will have spent years listening to 300 PRF at 6 RPM going through his headset - suddenly it changes to sector scan. The radios suddenly light up as a long conversation goes out to the other Bear. Shack crew realises what has happened and back to 360 degree scan after a minute or so.

I just thought that I'd mention this excitement in our QRA missions. Nothing like passing your latest off task as an hour or so into the future with QRA and Tansor well on the way home, us with a 3 hour transit back to Lossie and asking the Master Controller at Buchan for a SITREP: "Nothing West of 30 East". "Roger, my PLE is in nnn minutes and request instructions". "Remain on station" - they never could get to grips that by the time any more Q came around the corner then we would already be off station for fuel! The amount of extra high octane petrol that was burnt for no reason while looking into empty airspace!:*

[Pontius Navigator]

Something I never knew at the time but there were never enough WE177 to go around.

We always thought it a waste of the Vulcan bomb bay that we carried only one but I have since been told that even one was too many for all.

At Waddo there were 24 aircraft with another 24 at Scampton and 16 in Cyprus - 64 - but there were only ever 53 B models and one of those was withdrawn froms service leaving 52. As one of the Scampton sqns was converted to the MRR role the requirement would have dropped to 56 but even that was more than we had bombs for. I have been told that the shortfall was made up by issuing a few A models to Cyprus.

[Kitbag]

Apparently the shortfall was deliberate; the expected rate of transition to nuclear warfare was expected to result in significant aircraft losses before authority to load was given.

[Yellow Sun]

Apparently the shortfall was deliberate; the expected rate of transition to nuclear warfare was expected to result in significant aircraft losses before authority to load was given.

That was certainly the case in respect of RAFG, attrition rate was taken into account. I suspect that the scaling for the Vulcan was done a pragmatic basis as well. As for those units scaled for US weapons, well who knows? We were not the only user of the B57 in the maritime role so the airframe to weapon ratio may be rather more difficult to determine.

YS

[NutLoose]

Never had Hessian curtains around the Jaguar like the Tornado, knowing the RAF, it must have utilised a lot of broom handles and bodge tape to produce them.

[tartare]

Wow.
So in the F4 - to `deploy' some instant sunshine - one just selected SPCL WPN on that rotary knob and then what - did you pull a trigger type switch on the stick?
Did both WSO and pilot have to do so at the same time - i.e. two man rule as in silos and submarines - or could either crew member release the payload independently?
Or is this all still Beadwindow material...even now?

[The Oberon]

Very interesting reading here. I started life at Marham when the Valiant still had a QRA function, progressed through Victor/Blue Steel and finishing on Vulcans, Akkers and Scampton.

I was always curious about the Nimrod nuclear role, also, was there a plan B where the Nimrod could have taken over the V force target list should the V force have fallen short.

Anyone care to comment ?

[HTB]

NutLoose

So you have seen the screens/curtains then...

Mister B

[Yellow Sun]

I was always curious about the Nimrod nuclear role, also, was there a plan B where the Nimrod could have taken over the V force target list should the V force have fallen short.

In a word "No".

The Nimrod nuclear role was totally different in concept from the other RAF strike operations. For one thing there was no QRA element in it; this could cause WST a few conceptual problems! There were no pre-planned targets; for obvious reasons; and the crew had a list of stringent criteria satisfy; beyond the normal switchery; before releasing a weapon. It was all quite different from the relative simplicity of overland strike operations. The Buccaneer maritime role was quite different again.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

As for those units scaled for US weapons, well who knows? We were not the only user of the B57 in the maritime role so the airframe to weapon ratio may be rather more difficult to determine.

In a different place I was privvy to the numbers of B57s. I can't comment on numbers except to say that around that time SACEUR had 7,000 weapons at his disposal.

[Mach Two]

Surely actually saying the number is a bit like commenting on it, PN? :)

[NutLoose]

Shhhhhhhh. :}


Does it matter Mach Two, might as well had 7 million at his disposal, after the first 20 or so the rest would be superfluous... remember what Einstein said..

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

You're right Yellow Sun, Wiki is often wrong or misleading (which means a search to a real site is required) but it occasionally corrects itself. Re. the veritable "Queen of the Skies", the Canberra, Wiki states

RAF Germany's force of four squadrons equipped with the B(I).6 and B(I).8 were equipped to carry US-owned Mark 7 nuclear bombs (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Mark_7_nuclear_bomb), while three squadrons based on Cyprus and one at Singapore (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Singapore) were armed with British-owned Red Beard (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Red_Beard_(nuclear_weapon)) nuclear weapons

I know because I was there.
Sad old guy, Rog:{
ps The Singapore and Cyprus Sqns were B15's

[Pontius Navigator]

M2, I was not commenting upon the numbers or types at a particular facility. I merely mentioned the open source figure to suggest sufficiency.

[NutLoose]

The one good thing Chernobyl did for the world was to show how far and how widespread the actual footprint of just one weapon would be if the place had gone bang big time, Europe would have been gone as a viable place to live.
I think it scared those folks in power that thought in a small scale nuclear war there would be survivors, and the world would just carry on minus a few million people. Even now countries such as France I believe deny that radioactive fallout from Chernobyl ever reached them. Top that off now with the fears that the wild fires Russia had could have spread the fallout even wider.

Chernobyl Global Radiation Patterns (http://users.owt.com/smsrpm/Chernobyl/glbrad.html)

The Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster (http://library.thinkquest.org/26026/History/the_chernobyl_nuclear_disaster.html)

[BEagle]

The one good thing Chernobyl did for the world was to show how far and how widespread the actual footprint of just one weapon would be...

Not really. The pattern of radioactive fallout from the detonation of a nuclear weapon is considerably different to the continuous release from a failed reactor. Burst height has a considerable influence on the nature of the radiocontaminants in the resulting fallout.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, while you are correct in what you say you give the politicians and the ignorantors too much credit for knowing the difference between alpha, beta, gamma, ground burst, air burst etc etc.

To the largely uneducated masses nuclear is dangerous - no see, no touch, no smell. Indeed were it not so we would not have needed our regular injection of death at the far side of that airfield you mentioned.

BTW, all those courses you did were 'coded' and recorded on 5x3 card files - for instance you would have had 11A1 - probably in your log book too. I had that and also 11DF5. 11 stood for aircrew. As I trawled through the cards I found both dead and retired people but the admin wallah would not get rid of them 'just in case'.

[BEagle]

Yes, 11A1 it certainly was.

Only high-yield weapons pose a significant 'global' fall-out risk, tactical devices far less so.

The products of the 500 or so atmospheric tests of the 1950s certainly did threaten the environment - so much so that the 1963 Limited Test Ban Treaty put an end to most atmospheric nuclear weapons tests. Apart from the French who continued with atmospheric tests until the mid-70s....:uhoh:

[HTB]

Don't forget China, who were still testing throughout the 70s. I know, I was there collecting.

Mister B

[ian16th]

The Singapore and Cyprus Sqns were B15's 1962-64 the Cyprus (Akrotiri) squadrons were 73 squadron with B15's another squadron, the number I've forgotten, of B16's and 13 Squadron with PR9's

[Kitbag]

Came across this (http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/1976.PNG) whilst looking for some gen on a Phantom

[Pontius Navigator]

Kitbag, what the table does not show is the breakdown between the B and C variants.

The total shown for the Vulcan is 48 although the total number identified by Mike Fazackerley was that 53 were produced allowing for 48 operational rounds and 5 on maintenance rotation. One was withdrawn and we suspect it was as a result of the lightning strike in 1968.

Before the return of the Cyprus Vulcans to UK the number sqns of Vulcans in the nuclear role 7, 5 in UK and 2 in Cyprus and a total requirement for 56 bombs. The shortfall was made up, according to Mike, with the deployment of some A variants to Cyprus. As far as I know we were never told that some aircraft would have had the little bomb.

[RAFEngO74to09]

From the same source as referred to above:

http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/RAF-nuclear-frontline-Order-of-Battle-1966-94.PNG