Pilot survives crash into Lake Hume

[Zorro Polilla]

A pilot has survived a plane crash on Lake Hume, in northern Victoria, after which he had to swim to safety.
Ambulance Victoria spokesman Stephen Ford said paramedics received a call at 3.31pm today that a light plane had crashed into the weir on the lake, on the Victoria-New South Wales border.
Paramedics treated the man at Ludlows Reserve at Ebden, near Wodonga.

"We responded road ambulances, including road ambulance and a helicopter, towards the scene," Mr Ford told 3AW.

"The first crew found a single occupant had made it to shore and that person has been transported to hospital in Wodonga for observation at this point.
Read more: Pilot survives crash on Lake Hume (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pilot-survives-crash-on-lake-hume-20120102-1pi2f.html#ixzz1iHM48Y8d)

[Allan L]

A Saphire ultralight by the look of it.

Pilot lucky to survive ultra-light crash - ABC Goulburn Murray - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-02/ultra-light-plane-crashes-into-lake/3755436/?site=goulburnmurray&section=news)

[VH-XXX]

If it had retracts he would have been laughing as the Sapphire is a great shape for a float plane. Great day for a swim today but he took it a little too far....

[Hydromet]

Also an 80 yo lady glider pilot crashed in northern Victoria today at the world championships. She is OK, minor injuries.

[Al Fentanyl]

From the news footage there was an engine, so a powered glider - wonder why it crashed?

[VH-XXX]

Maybe she had a Nanna nap?

(ps: apparently she was caught in a downdraught and pirouetted on the wing to avoid a house that had a woman and two children on the porch. Luckily the woman and children ran to her rescue.)

[Tankengine]

Al,
More powered gliders have problems starting engines to avoid paddock landings than non powered gliders have simply landing.:rolleyes:

[Super Cecil]

I think I read somewhere it was a Dragonfly, a Steve Coen design? Built as a tug not a glider.

[Pinky the pilot]

at the world championships

National Comps more likely.

[VH-XXX]

Just a quick one to clarify, there were 3 seperate crashes over the last few days:

1. The DragonFly Tug at Dubbo on the way to the champs with EFATO.

2. The Glider with 80 Yr old female UK pilot that priouetted on her wing after a downdraught.

3. The Sapphire ultralight that crashed into Lake Hume after allegedly flying low.

[Lasiorhinus]

3. The Sapphire ultralight that crashed into Lake Hume after allegedly flying low.

Going out on a limb here, but I'd suspect the crashing occured during the time the aircraft was at a low height, not afterwards.

[compressor stall]

Well when hit the water it had stopped flying, so I guess that was after flying low. [/pedant] :O

[fixa24]

Captured: 'Buzzing' before Hume crash - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/captured-buzzing-before-hume-crash/2409047.aspx)

No alleged about it really. How you gonna explain that mister? :yuk:

[VH-XXX]

Thanks for the link. Photo copied here to brighted up the colours in the thread.



Is it a crime to have fun these days :rolleyes: Seems it is. 15-20 years ago you might have got away with this kind of thing but not these days with 95% of the population and their iPhones.

http://static.lifeislocal.com.au/multimedia/images/full/1630832.jpg

[j3pipercub]

Exactly what would you have been able to get away with xxx? The low flying or the crashing?

[flywatcher]

The mind boggles. How much longer will their regulators accept this behaviour.

[VH-XXX]

Exactly what would you have been able to get away with xxx? The low flying or the crashing?


Given that the exact same aircraft was possibly nearly being flown 20 years ago, certainly not the crashing :D The low flying part. (Not saying that it was any more legal 20 years ago, just saying that you were far more likely to get away with it).

How much longer will their regulators accept this behaviour.

They don't, and they never did Flywatcher.

At a guess, the pilots certificate will be immediately revoked, their membership with RA-Aus cancelled permanently (for bringing RA-Aus into disrepute) and the information will be forwarded to CASA for further regulatory action, which in this instance could equate to a string of low flying related charges of no less than 50 demerit points ($5,500inc GST in fines?) and possibly up to a 2 year jail term if anything else pops up. Not somewhere I'd like to be right now.

RA-Aus pilots need to all realise if they don't already, that whilst you operate under RA-Aus, you are still 100% operating under CASA and it's full regulatory powers. The RA-Aus involvement merely only give an excemption to some of the CASA requirements around aircraft type and licence, however you are still bound by the same CAO's & CAR's.

In actual fact, by being an RA-Aus certificate holder, you need to comply with all CASA CAO's and CAR's ... AND ... the RA-Aus operations manual. You also need to know which takes priority over the other. It's no-where near as simple as just thinking or saying "those RA-Aus guys can do whatever they can get away with it" .... far from it.

(PS: This is in no way RA-Aus bashing towards the organisation or it's members - I'm merely pointing out that both the regulatory systems apply simultaneously here)

[Jabawocky]

I am sure that John Quadrio will be pleased to know that he gets hung out to dry by the iphone evidence of a criminal and compulsive liar, doing his job safely and within the bounds of his machines limitations, and this guy will get bugger all.

Time will tell.......No doubt many will be watching this and the Ferris Wheel job.

[ChrisJ800]

Glider pilot, 81, swerved to avoid hitting house with children | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/woman-80-in-glider-accident/story-e6frfkvr-1226235153030)

has a link to an article on it. Seems she ground looped after a paddock landing. Anyone have any more info as Im a former UK glider pilot living in Oz?

[metalman2]

The mind boggles. How much longer will their regulators accept this behaviour.

wasn't that long ago they were restricted to a few hundred feet altitude, low flying was all they were allowed to do ! Of course chasing speed boats has always been wrong!

[VH-XXX]

The article initially said she was caught in a downdraught.


Maybe the pilot of the Sapphire was trying to warn the skiier that there was a fresh-water shark right behind him?

That defence would almost stand up if it was in the ocean.

[glekichi]

Unless the photo was of the actual forced landing. Unlikely, but possible. Could have been having a bit of fun at 500' when the engine quit leaving not many options.

Or is it suggested it flew into the water with an operable engine?

[spinex]

Problem is it isn't just one photo, click on the link above and you'll see a slideshow of what appears to be at least one low pass, followed by a pull up and turn away.

Sad thing is that is the sort of behaviour you'd expect of a teenager on a dirt bike, not a mature aged pilot. I'd certainly want a word with old mate if it were my boat and family that he buzzed.

[Arnold E]

wasn't that long ago they were restricted to a few hundred feet altitude, low flying was all they were allowed to do

Hmmm, good point.
How things are different when they are not the same.

[djpil]

Is it a crime to have fun these days Seems it is. 15-20 years agoI used to have fun on a ferris wheel but that's no fun these days either.:bored:

[glekichi]

Have seen the sequence now after not being able to earlier. The last image looks out of place, different zoom and the aircraft turning the other direction, but the second to last one with a slight pull up and turn is a little damning. Hope for the pilots sake it can be shown that it was part of the forced landing, otherwise I'd say he's done!

[SgtBundy]

A Forced landing? Into a lake, directly behind and over a speedboat, with significant manoeuvring. Done for enough time for someone to get a phone out and take photos and then lie to the media to make it sound like the pilot was reckless?

Sure. Sounds plausible. No such thing as an idiot with a pilots license.

[VH-XXX]

This might be the one occasion where we can all safely make an assumption on what happened and not be wrong.... no input from Planky required.

He "later" crashed in the Lake, not during the photo sequence. Draw your own conclusions on that one. Looked like he was having fun, but you'd have to think if you were going to do that yourself that you wouldn't do it to some random ski boat versus some mate of yours!!!

[glekichi]

Was just putting it out there as a remote possibility. Agree it's highly unlikely, even more so after a second look.

[Ultralights]

The mind boggles. How much longer will their regulators accept this behaviour.
This can never be regulated out of existence, for the simple fact, man has an adrenalin system and an ego. It's the same reason people ride motorbikes fast, it's a buzz, simple. The only way it will ever stop is by banning aircraft altogether. Just google low flying, it's not uncommon, in everything from sapphires to 777's.

[Sunfish]

I assume that the Sapphire pilot will be prosecuted by CASA with the full force of the law.

[dkaarma]

A slightly more incriminating article.

Crash plane 'buzzed my son'

Crash plane 'buzzed my son' - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/crash-plane-buzzed-my-son/2410454.aspx)

[aroa]

Happened up north too, buzzing boats and fell into the water. :=

And altho it got a lot of publicity in the local rag..you know, all the usual dramatizations," kids screaming, people crying in fear" of the buzzer, CASA declined to be involved....RAA's balliwick.

[VH-XXX]

As RA-Aus don't have the powers to impose financial charges / fines / burden onto the Pilot (other than taking un-precedented court action), they will refer this to CASA to take action. Remember that the pilot has broken the CAO's & CAR's and not a specific RA-Aus rule, so he's under the full juristiction of CASA.

I'm all for "fun" in aircraft and may have seen some similar behaviours before or possibly been a little bit too close to the action :oh:, however as these were complete strangers, I think he may have gone a little too far!

[Jabawocky]

Pilot Bob Bogaard, 60, claims he was flying at a reasonable height.
He said his altimeter was giving him a reading of 500 feet as he soared over the lake on Monday afternoon.
Of course it was.....:ugh: The lake is around 500AMSL, Albury is 547'.

This bloke is surely in deep guano :\


Police are waiting on a blood-alcohol reading for Mr Bogaard, which may take more than a month.
Mr Bogaard said he had not been drinking alcohol before taking off from Holbrook but had swallowed “two litres of petrol” when the plane went down.


Yeah right....swallowed 2L of petrol, he may have swallowed some water with a small fuel content, which would be unpleasant, but if you swallow large amounts of raw fuel you would not be talking to the media. When or if the cops findings show a positive BAC is he going to claim that it was from using E10 fuel? :}

[Frank Arouet]

I'm trying to look at all positions here but can't come up with an acceptable reason/ excuse/ lack of intent.

Holbrook is 875' AMSL so even if he had QFE set, the Dam at say 550' (Albury is 547'),he can't even use this as a mitigation.

However given CASA's usual response in only prosecuting innocent party's, I can't see this bloke copping anything except non renewal of his RA-Aus membership which is the De-facto administrative action open to them and this effectively grounds him.

On the subject of intent, I thought this was the first test to ascertain if a criminal offence had taken place. All aviation strict liability offence's are criminal offence's, it would be pretty hard for him to prove otherwise.

But again that doesn't bother CASA as they are not model litagents.:hmm:

[CoodaShooda]

Suggestion in the media that he did/does not hold a valid licence. :hmm:

[VH-XXX]

The pilot was unlicenced.

Therefore he was not flying under the juristiction of RA-Aus.

He will now face the full force of CASA for (recklessly?) flying an unregistered aircraft with no licence.

Jail threat for 'unlicensed' lake crash pilot - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-05/jail-threat-for-27unlicensed27-lake-crash-pilot/3760046)

2 years potentially by default as Steve T says. Ouch.

[Frank Arouet]

No-one else was on board the plane when it crashed

Observations;

1) It's a single seater. I guess that escaped the media reporter.
2) RA-Aus have washed their hands of any responsibility.
3) The GA "cowboys" will have a field day with the RA-Aus "cowboys".
4) Probably here on PPRune if it is left to go that way.
5) The incident does nothing to enhance the public perception of ALL light aircraft.

6) CASA will attend to this matter without bringing up old mates who have flown without licences or registrations and got away with it. (yes they have skeletons).

Personally I'm ambivalent to the outcome, but I will follow it with interest.

[Dangly Bits]

Zero Brains + Zero Altitude = Zero Chance.

Who the hell does this guy think he is by deliberately putting innocent lives at risk! Now we find out from Tizz that he has no valid certificate or rego!

He deserves to lose his freedom with a couple of months in the Pokey.

DB

[Arnold E]

6) CASA will attend to this matter without bringing up old mates who have flown without licences or registrations and got away with it. (yes they have skeletons).

Why not let us all know who you are talking about, if its true surely nothing can be done to you?

[baron_beeza]

Ok, from a GA cowboy.

Fun is fun, - but would you go and beat up some stranger's boat, and recklessly at that, without a few beers in you ?

He is not a teenager, give the man some credit. He would not have done that if he was sober...

I am thinking 2 litres of that fuel may not be enough to fool the alcohol testing.

He seems to be a bit of a character, who could keep a straight face and come out with the 500' comment ?


People like that make the rest of us appear like angels.
Mr Ferris Wheel may even be smiling. :hmm:

[Arnold E]

give the man some credit. He would not have done that if he was sober...

Your not serious are you???

[metalman2]

hey was that the sound of sh!t hitting a fan (propeller) somewhere!
it will be interesting to hear the outcome,,,,,

[Aerodynamisist]

It's a pretty old fashioned way to crash an aircraft.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1357105/ar-2009-041_avoidableaccidents-lowlevelflying.pdf

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24316/aair200601509_001.pdf

[Jabawocky]

The downside to this is, in the public eye, a certain amount of dung flung sticks.

About the only folk who avoid the dung flung here are the airlines, everything else with a propellor from a RFDS B200 and smaller will attract the stigma of light aircraft.....and all those who fly them are cowboys.

We all know this is far from the truth, but that will be a perception that is in the wild and uncontrolled.

What sort of nutcase 60 year old, who had an expired Student certificate and an unregistered plane would fly it, anywhere near public view, let alone buzzing strangers. Unfortunately this moron has probably been breeding some of those other morons we all compain about. We are not taking them out of the food chain soon enough.

Once upon a time aviation was a bit harder to participate in if you were an uneducated bogan. Now it seems that is not the case. Not only do the airlines have a bogan problem, but the various flying organisations do too. Boganus Moronus. :ugh:

[Kharon]

At the end of the street is a great little park, wrapped around a cricket pitch, no dogs on the pitch. No problem, everyone with a dog off a leash complies; but, every now and then some mutt decides that the rules don't apply “their mutt” , complaints to Council are made and so; enter the Rangers. Why is it a simple, good system has been stuffed by idiots?. We then all suffer the 'dog off leash fines' ($250), even though "we never dun it Guv". It's just the only way the Council can react, their Rangers given no option. It is the law, equal to all.

Now the Ag boys have done a fantastic job, almost loosely supervised self admin. Great manual, good leadership, proper compliance, great results and (I hear) exporting safety 'systems' (for wont of a better expression or knowledge). I say great stuff, good job and Bravo.

GA struggles along, surviving on sheer grit on occasion. No great strides forward, but existing.

The RAA is a brilliant idea, it should be as 'bullet proof' as the Ag. Boys. But, alas every time I read of a prang on Pprune, it's the RAA.

How long before those hard won freedoms are lost, because some dope let his dog onto the cricket pitch. Not too long I'd bet. Do not force CASA to act, or into making a decision, because they will. It can only end in tears.

Selah.

No, not a RAA bash at all. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

[Frank Arouet]

Why not let us all know who you are talking about, if its true surely nothing can be done to you?

You must be joking!

One example, (for instance), doesn't work for CASA, he is part of a protected CASA compliant organisation.

Despite your contributions to PPRune, you don't really have a clue do you?

[in-cog-nito]

Typical aeroclub ol'boy attitude. They think they're above the law.
Holbrook Ultralight club has 100+ members! Surely someone there knew he was unlicenced. And as usual, no one has the balls to front this bloke about it.:ugh:

And I bet when the investigators come they will whinge about him then....until they are asked to go on record, then you hear the sound of crikets.

[Arnold E]

Despite your contributions to PPRuNe, you don't really have a clue do you?

Not what your talking about, No.

[Wallsofchina]

Kharon, you're losing your credibility with the dribble that slops on to your shoes, or you just have a reading problem, or a memory problem.

I don't accept that RAAus can walk away from this person, even though he currently has no relationship with any formal aviation group, because the system which produced him and the aircraft was RAAus.

However to take the leap and have a quick bash, while adding a footnote that you aren't bashing shows there's more than one idiot around.

The crash statistics between RA and GA as we know are much the same.

If you want a GA parallel to this incident, go back a couple of Christmases ago to the low flying GA pilot who killed himself in front of his neighbour.

This dumb activity ultimately affects all of us because the public perception doesn't go deep enough to identify different facets of aviation except as someone else said, that these events are not occurring in airliners.

[baron_beeza]

Do we know why he crashed ?

As I understand it the aircraft did not have a wirestrike so we are left with mechanical failure, fuel exhaustion or pilot error.

Low flying aside, the pilot still has to explain how he damaged the machine.

He would have already taken a financial 'hit' there. This is even before CASA starts on him.

[VH-XXX]

Supposedly hit the wing on the water one of the early articles said.


If you want a GA parallel to this incident, go back a couple of Christmases ago to the low flying GA pilot who killed himself in front of his neighbour.



He never had a chance that man. Didn't matter how many times we collectively warned him, he still continued to do dumb things to the very end. He was even under investigation from CASA at the time for low flying events. Time and time again he was told, told off, warned, advised, yelled at, banned, instructed etc and he still kept on going, finding new airports to fly from, new clubs to join, new people to hang out with and buying new aircraft. Peer pressure did not work in this instance so I don't accept the old "someone should have said something to him," because it doesn't guarantee a result.

[rutan around]

Relax everyone. It's been discovered the pilot is ex Cathay Pacific. He has been exonerated from all charges. The speed boat driver driver has been arrested for being too close to an aircraft whilst not being the holder of a current valid ASIC card, and his son is in juvenile detention for wearing floaties which were not to CASA's satisfaction. Investigations are underway to establish whether the dam operators allowed the water level to infringe the local airspace. CASA spokesman Richard Cranium stated that if found in breach the dam authorities could be fined up to 50 demerit points per litre of water found to be in breach.

[Desert Duck]

Rather surprising that the 'thing' could keep up with the speedboat

[dkaarma]

It gets better! He was unlicensed and the aircraft wasn't registered :=

The Border Mail - Pilot 'Had No Licence' (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/pilot-had-no-licence/2411512.aspx)

[VH-XXX]

A Sapphire should be good for 80 knots or so.

I did laugh when I read that the boy waved to the pilot and he waved back!

The BIGGEST mistake the pilot made in this incident was talking to the police and the media. NO COMMENT would be the most appropriate response in this instance until his lawyer arrived.



Mr Bogaard yesterday said his memory was scratchy on what happened on Monday but was ruing the loss of the ultralight’s instrument panel.
“But I’m more concerned with the instrument panel. “I think it has been stolen after the crash, it was there in the water but no one knows where it has gone.”



With all this going on, he's worried about his missing ASI and ALT :confused:

[Sunfish]

If the bloke isn't licenced and the aircraft is not registered then this bloke is not a pilot, nor even a student pilot.

He is simply a member of the general public who appears to have decided to perform multiple allegedly illegal acts.

The RAA or any organisation like an aero club has nothing to do with it unless they knowingly, willingly or negligently facilitated his flight. Any time I hire an aircraft, even from my own club, I have to present licence and a current medical.

[Jabawocky]

Wallsofchina,

Time to take off the rose tinted glasses for a minute. We could all sit here and quote statistics, mind you RAA never release any unless it is a certain statistic that suits their cause, but none the less take the emotion out of it for a minute.

In the GA community, where there is a large sector of commercial operations where there is a job to be done, there are accidents, Ag prangs of late spring to mind. There are some PVT flights such as the one in CQ recently (no idea but I suspect VFR into IMC) and there are helo prangs for EMS or other ops, so lets say there are plenty of accidents in the last ten years.

Move to RAA and of late the number of deaths and non fatal accidents that make it into the news has seemed to have risen, and the ones that spring to mind are generally from really stupid actions. And I mean really stupid. Everything from RAAus Jabiru's departing Inverell into the dark and IMC heading east south east :eek: to folk dam busting. Yes that Jab flight is real, presumed safe arrival.

So while there is a big difference between say a low level run up a scenic river in the remote NW of WA and buzzing skiiers on a popular SE Oz Dam, you would have to ask, where is the majority of cowboy stuff coming from? It seems to be coming from RAA folk, and when you weed out of the RAAus membership all the retired CPL and ATPL folk, which cuts the numbers down a bit, and I suspect they are not the ones doing the majority of cowboy antics, it would paint a far different picture.

So not just comparing apples with apples, lets compare the same variety of apples. The picture gets worse.

I am not employed as an aviation statistician, but I had a founding role in RV Flight Safety (http://www.rvflightsafety.org/) which we put together as a result of the FAA saying...... "fix it or we will do it for you" in response to a far higher than acceptable accident rate for Exp/AB aircraft.

Part of this project I sat down for a day or two and poured through every NTSB accident report as well as ATSB reports for the previous 10 years, looking at the basic causes for the "higher" rate of accidents. When the VFR into IMC prangs were removed because those folk would have done that in a C172 or A36 anyway, there was an alarming trend. The bottom line was there were very few that could be traced to EXP/AB faults and even then a fuel line fault did not cause the fatality, it was the stall / spin into a paddock they should have landed in anyway. The VAST MAJORITY of the accidents that were identifiable and preventable and the target zone of the FAA proved to be cowboy antics.

I am pleased to report that the Exp/AB folk in Australia have a significantly better record, I do not recall now but it was like 5 or 10 or more times less accidents per aircraft registered.

This survey DID NOT include RAA, as the data is not available.

By the way the name rvflightsafety.org was the creative component of the only Aussie on the committee :).

So what did this prove to us....if the accident rate was to be fixed, all we had to do was kill off the cowboys, which they were doing themselves but not at a fast enough rate, and the FAA were not happy as it was.:E The question was asked why the cowboys? It seems that the more adventurous folk who play cowboy antics are the ones who like to live on the edge, who think rules are for others, and it was their God given right to have the freedom to do as they please. The rebels as it were. They also seemed to be the ones that if they were in aviation they would be flying a RV/Thorpe/Lancair or something that was a high performance machine. Piper Cubs were not for them.

The more conservative of us, while adventurous etc, we far more disciplined. This was evident from the folk who stepped forward to form RV flight safety dot org. They were passionate folk, but most were ex or current military, airline or NetJets pilots, a few of us were private, and we had a good mix, but all very common philosophy to safety. So what we had was a culture of fun loving and adventurous, but at the same time safe operational types, and there was a dark and evil sub culture....who mostly made up the stats.

So back to RAAus. Their challenge is some how stamp out the "dark eveil sub-culture" who seem to think they can be cowboys and get away with it. They fail to see they are dangerous. And that is the problem. I have mates who are ex jet fighter pilots who could do buzz jobs like that and way better all day ong in their Yak or even a Saphire UL, and not be any more dangerous than a Cessna overhead at 500'.....but I am not one of them, and nor are most of the RAA or GA community. Fortunately, most of us know this and refrain.

The incident VH-XXX refers to is a classic case of Boganus Moronus. I am sure no matter what type he was flying his behaviour was in that sub-culture mentioned above.

So why is it the RAA have a much larger population of these cowboys? (this is not inflamatory questioning for wallsofchina)............For a start, most of the folk flying Gulfstreams or KingAirs are doing so for a different purpose. The folk most likely flying a FTDK/A36/PAXX and RV10's are also doing so for a different purpose. They have high capital investment, generally highly trained, and as a result their decission making is less cowboy like.

Step into the more sporty group, the typical RV group Aerobatic tourers, slight increase in risky activity but often higher captial outlay, and a high proportion of Airline or Military folk who want fun but well trained and careful operations. Bigger scope though for cowboys and as was found in the USA the results show this.

Now we get into the next group. The low cost cost to entry, be it GA or RAA, but most likely RAA as its cost to entry is far less. So where do you think the budding top guns of the Boganus Moronus species are going to wind up? And yes they can be 60 years old as well. This is why in my opinion RAA are most likely going to be the ones with the increasing problem. Their new Ops Manager is a really good operator, but heck what a job he has on his hands.

Despite what wallsofchina will say, this is not a slag off at them at all, this is just a summary of why I think they have a growing problem. Based on some genuine data analysis and learning from it, and a bit of common sense deduction.

[onetrack]

One of the prime advantages of aircraft is that they are excellent items for rapidly removing the idiots from the gene pool. In this case, one has to wonder how this idiot actually got to 60 years of age without already killing himself?

QUOTE: “I’m not sure what happened — maybe it was a gust of wind or my engine failed"....

I was flying safely: Crash pilot - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/i-was-flying-safely-crash-pilot/2410191.aspx)

One is reminded of that succinct epithet about how there are 3 types of people in the world - Those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and those who wonder what happened!

The court transcripts are sure going to make some interesting reading. If he thinks he's out of pocket by a substantial amount about now; that'll be nothing compared to what he'll be out of pocket after the judge has cleaned him out.
Dozens of witnesses, clear photos, no registration, no licence, and an idiot "pilot" shooting his mouth off, giving bumbling, amateurish replies to reporters and Police, doesn't give him a leg to stand on.
I purposely put "pilot" in inverted commas, because he isn't worthy of being classed as a pilot, in every sense of the word.

[VH-XXX]

I considered not using the word pilot until I realised that he "was" a pilot, regardless of whether his membership or ASIC card was paid up.

A car has a driver, an aircraft has a pilot.

[Kharon]

WOC – there really was no offence intended. If I intend to offend, you would know it. So whilst I mops up me boots, I'll attempt to explain.

The Ag boys fought well, hard and long for their 'free' status. The Glider guys have for many years enjoyed a well deserved freedom from the authorities clammy paws. RAA is similar and as Jabba says, should be a great deal for all. I have no doubt that the RAA is a sensible, well run and advised operation. Long may it remain so.

My concern is that these groups may loose some of the hard won freedom because of the actions of others. Joe Public only sees a "little" aircraft, in the hands of a dangerous lunatic in a potentially deadly situation. What if this Muppet had hit the boat and killed a couple or three. The lack of skill demonstrated makes it only a matter of luck that he didn't. Next stop the local Polly; "Something has got to be done" they scream. Next stop CASA and that sir, makes life tough for everyone.

I fully realise that it is (and was) almost impossible to stop this type of fruit bat, but this incident should be publicly "seen" for what it truly is, an aberration and certainly not the norm.

So, no not an anti RAA rant at all, just concern over how to stop this sort of thing "seeming" to happen so often that something will be done; official like.

There, boots nice and clean now.

[onetrack]

VH-XXX - My definition of a pilot is someone whose skills and understanding of the laws of flight and aerodynamics, entitle him to a qualification, bestowed on him by his peers, and which enables him to operate an aircraft in a safe and professional manner.
This bloke was merely an idiot at the controls of an aircraft, with little understanding of the consequences of what he was doing with his aircraft, and thus does not rate as a pilot.
I note that the RAAus spokeperson claimed his "student certificate had expired". This seems to indicate that the "pilot" had not even completed his student studies. The crash appears to reinforce this belief.
One is constantly reminded of the bumper sticker that reads... "Dead Pilots Society - practising random acts of good airmanship". :suspect:

[VH-XXX]

Ok then, he was "piloting" the aircraft :ok:

[Frank Arouet]

Next stop CASA and that sir, makes life tough for everyone

I am advised that representatives of CASA have already introduced themselves to "the dark side" at Holbrook. The decent folk down there are furious I'm told.

As an aside, and not trying to change the topic, but this is the second Sapphire I've personally seen in a major prang where the pilot has walked away more or less without a scratch. It says something of an aircraft I once thought "flimsy", to go through an 80KT sudden stop. I note the tail boom which I thought most fragile appears intact. Top marks for a tough little aeroplane.

[Wallsofchina]

Jabba, I would pretty much agree with all you said, I've got a leg in both camps.
I did see some statistics around which showed about equal fatality rates, although with their slower stall speeds, there may well be more RA aircraft bent and fixed or thrown on the tip without the necessity for medical treatment of the Pilot.
This was certainly a cowboy act, but I'd divide your statistics into flying for recreation and flying for business, which takes out the professionals you referred to leaving people who purely fly for fun.
These I would further divide into those who could really afford to fly and those who are struggling to make ends meet.
The second group often don't fly enough to keep up their proficiency, cut back on maintenance, and "have to get back to the office"
I have no statistics on that group but suspect they account for a proportion of fatalities.
Of the balance most are responsible, some are cowboys but whether the cowboys are accumulating at the cheap end I'm not sure. We've seen some very strange fatals in the last couple of years coming from the more skilled end of aviation.
This guy of course was in no man's land because he didn't have ANY licence, GA or RA, so we'll see if the 2 years prison sentence is applied. That might take the sparkle off a few other cowboys.



Kharon, as we've seen in the past there is the thinnest of slivers on this site that can turn a sensible thread into a frothing sea of abuse against "others"

[Jabawocky]

but I'd divide your statistics into flying for recreation and flying for business,

I did not put up any statistics. I made some worded comment and for that I did divide things up quite well I thought.

I think you did raise one point very well though....the number of RAAus incidents that do not result in a fatality that would otherwise in a higher performance machine is hard to measure but quite likely significant.

Add to that the number that go unreported.....and now we are talking ;). I am sure you know what I mean. There are plenty.

[Wallsofchina]

I should have realised where a reasonable discussion would be taken.

[VH-XXX]

I know an old RA instructor that used to boast of his "nil-reported accident history" :ok:

[Jabawocky]

I should have realised where a reasonable discussion would be taken.

What this one?


Add to that the number that go unreported.....and now we are talking http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif. I am sure you know what I mean. There are plenty.

It is the truth. Just never officially recorded. Everything from a bent u/c leg to far worse. Anyway, believe what you want.

[Wallsofchina]

You too, nothing like a bit of fantasy.

[Kharon]

Just kicking this around, can any of the Bar Barristers assist?.

If this chump has no 'official' standing (license and an unregistered aircraft) under which laws or Act can he be done under.

I know the CASA reg suite makes all kinds of blood curdling statements, so we guess that is the Act that which will be used, however it does leave a couple of curly questions hanging.

Perhaps not ??. Curious is all. What say you.

[Frank Arouet]

He is to be prosecuted under the cat, dog, fruit bat, and vagrant Act, 1902, as amended as a summary offence, since repealed, but renamed as strict liability so it can be shoved off to Harbours and Marine because it involved a boat. The aircraft became a boat when it made contact with the water and it appears he was probably unlicensed to drive a boat into the water.

I hope this clears things up?

[Arnold E]

He is to be prosecuted under the cat, dog, fruit bat, and vagrant Act, 1902, as amended as a summary offence, since repealed, but renamed as strict liability so it can be shoved off to Harbours and Marine because it involved a boat. The aircraft became a boat when it made contact with the water and it appears he was probably unlicensed to drive a boat into the water.

I hope this clears things up?

At last Frank you make things clear for me, Thank you.:E

[VH-XXX]

Stop screwing up the thread Wallsofchina. Agree to disagree and move on.


Good question Kharon. It doesn't seem to matter whether CASA has jurisdiction or not, the magistrate always seems to slap on a sizeable fine that he sees fit on the day that is never in line with CASA's penalty system.

Like where did 17.5k come from for the guy that flew his RAA gazelle into Cairns?

[cficare]

summed it up nicely Jab!...............

[cficare]

it seems that in some areas there is not a sense of pride/humility/amasment in the priveldge of 'leaving the earth' and returning to it in one piece..

this accident will result in a lot of enforcement action by the regulators...

maybe..its time..

[Avgas172]

I think you did raise one point very well though....the number of RAAus incidents that do not result in a fatality that would otherwise in a higher performance machine is hard to measure but quite likely significant.


Methinks it may have something to do with the mass of the machine involved, ie not many A380's are likely to survive a glide into a paddock compared to a C172 into same paddock? My .002aud worth

[Avgas172]

Pilot or not?

n.
1. One who operates or is licensed to operate an aircraft in flight.
2. Nautical
a. One who, though not belonging to a ship's company, is licensed to conduct a ship into and out of port or through dangerous waters.
b. The helmsman of a ship.
3. One who guides or directs a course of action for others.
4. The part of a tool, device, or machine that leads or guides the whole.

[spinex]

I suspect that this would have been a CASA matter regardless of whether the plane and pilot were licenced / registered etc. The RAA operates under the same body of rules as any other aircraft and subject to CASA oversight, but provided aircraft and operator are appropriately certificated / registered, there are exemptions to certain of those rules eg PPL requirement and maintenance by LAME are two obvious ones, coupled with restrictions eg controlled airspace. CASA may have chosen to palm off a simple crash investigation and generally has done in the past, but given the allegations about old mate's prior behaviour and the public and media interest.......:(

[djpil]

founding role in RV Flight Safety Great stuff, Jabawocky!
I'd like to quote some of your comments there to a few others.
____________________________________________________

I witnessed an accident many years ago at an airshow. Row of aeroplanes parked either side of a temporary grass runway - made inactive as a runway to be used for parking as heavy rain had made other parking areas unusable. An aeroplane (it looked like an aeroplane anyway) started moving very quickly along the clear space between the rows of parked aircraft. My guess is that it would have got off the ground before long but it didn't fly, that day anyway. I don't know how it got there in the first place.
Its wingtip clipped the spinner of one aeroplane which caused it to spin around 90 deg to the left and chop through the wing of a new homebuilt. Splinters flying everywhere.
Talking to the owner of the homebuilt later: the driver of the other vehicle didn't have a licence, the aeroplane wasn't registered nor insured. It didn't fly so CASA wasn't going to do anything - not a pilot, not an aeroplane.

[Up-into-the-air]

I re-post the link of the photos of the incident:

Crash plane 'buzzed my son' - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/crash-plane-buzzed-my-son/2410454.aspx)


Have a look at these and see if you can see what I can see!!

[Arnold E]

Have a look at these and see if you can see what I can see!!You talking about the markings on the tail??? Indicating it may have been registered (at least at some time)

[baron_beeza]

Have a look at these and see if you can see what I can see!!

Well the NT News version of the pics has a little extra.

We have crocs in the water and UFO's in the distance.

Were they photoshopped out of your one ? ;)

[Jabawocky]

Pay attention XXX, I was agreeing with Jabawocky and trying to add something to the discussion until the bias came out.

WOC........ No bias coming out at all. read my post without rose tinted glasses. All I have done is point out what I believe to be the reall issues, based on my observations and participation in structured safety management organisations.

The problem I see is that the cowboy element will congregate somewhere, and by the description I posted previously, this will not be likely in Airlines or the heavy end of GA (Transair crash excepted) so that leaves the mid to light end of GA. You have already read I trust my thoughts on where and why they will be higly concentrated in RAA and why I think RAA has the greatest problems to deal with.

This is not slagging RAAus, nor is it a mine is bigger than yours exercise. I dare say my RAAus certificate is exactly the same size as yours, it may contain more or less endorsements though. My PPL and CIR is about the same size as most others too I would assume. There is no such willy wagging going on here at all. Despite what the serial pest troll has conjured up in his posts :ugh:

No doubt the majority of posters have seen them for what they are.

[Wallsofchina]

If we accept that cowboys cost us dearly in the end, the question is, how do we weed them out?
CASA FoI's and RAAus Ops people are too thin on the ground to catch every cowboy, so maybe CFI's should be paid more to take on a stronger administrative role, maybe given some powers to do it also?

[VH-XXX]

Not every airport has a CFI or flying school and a CFI has zero control over licenced or unlicensed pilots. The field mentioned earlier with a poor licence and rego record has has no flying school presence and no CFI and it wouldn't matter anyway if they did. If there was one he would quickly become the town dobber and likely end up underground. I could have been flying unlicenced for the last 10 years and nobody would have known the status of my licence. It's possibly for someone to be a loaner and not talk to anyone about their flying or medical status.

You will never get rid of this element of aviation. Same goes for driving on the roads. The system is there and the penaties exists, SHOULD you choose to follow the system.

[in-cog-nito]

Sad but true XXX, sad but true.
And as an ex CFI, we are expected to be a representitive of CASA when it came such matters of poor airmanship or illegal practices. It always ends in a war of animosity on the airport. Not good!

So you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And like you said they'll just pack up and go somewhere.

I'm just waiting to hear back from my Dad who lives in Wodonga. Apparently there is more to this guys adventures.

In-cog

[baron_beeza]

Plane In NC Accident Suffered Fuel Exhaustion | Aero-News Network (http://www.aero-news.net/subsite.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=fbf5ba11-ba89-41b8-89ef-405bd583bd23)


We have this crash in the States just a few weeks ago. The guy seems to have been trying to land his Tomahawk in a paddock adjacent to his house.

I keep telling the owners of certified machines.... if you want to do your own maintenance and not log it then why would you bother doing medicals and renewals.

It is pointless having a legal licence and then fly about in your machine with an invalidated C of A.

This guy seems to have gone a step beyond that, - he may have been trying to save too much of his fuel dollar.

[kaz3g]

Two years twice -- unregistered and unlicensed. Plus reckless operation under the CAA.

Plus conduct endangering life - 10 years.

kaz

[kaz3g]

Many RA Instructors are also GA instructors a situation that reflects the cost of operating a GA fleet that burns avgas by the bucketful.

I own a VH registered aircraft and have held a PPL for more than 30 years. I started flying long before that when I took up gliding and I also have an RA certificate.

My experience is that all of us who fly responsibly for pleasure strive to improve our skills and genuinely promote safety in aviation irrespective of our registration and licensing system. There will always be a small minority which tries hard to make life miserable for the rest of us.

We should be standing up, not as GA or RA devotees but as pilots united together expressing our contempt for and disassociation from the activities that allegedly occured at lake Hume.

If we can't fly united together we shall surely fall foul of the regulator, the media and government and be grounded together.

kaz

[Sunfish]

Simple: Close Holbrook and sell the land.

Same goes for any other airport that allows someone to depart without checking.

If an aircraft is unregistered then clamp it to make sure it is NOT going anywhere.

If you want access, present your licence.

If you want fuel, present your licence.

If you want ANYTHING present your licence.

No licence? then **** off.

[VH-XXX]

That's not a half bad idea Sunfish, however who will pay for this level of enforcement 24x7, the airfield operator or the government? Also, who will monitor those pilots that fly from local fields and run on mogas all over Australia?

Good idea (seriously), but practically I can't see it working very well.

[Kharon]

Just for a laugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3SXBirhH7s

[Wallsofchina]

Brilliant,

Penalise the innocent
Sell land that doesn't belong to you
Draw kids cartoons
Do you know if he even flew from Holbrook's airfield, and not a farm?

Wasn't this the site that was advertising no confidence in CASA?

[Kharon]

Wasn't this the site that was advertising no confidence in CASA?

I wonder. Which one does he mean ??. I mean there are so very many options to choose from. Here are but two.

CASA integrity survey. (http://www.kwiksurveys.com?s=OCLNNH_eda4d7e5)

No confidence in CASA. (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

Puzzled now. (Not being too bright at all). Why does he wonder how all this occurred ?; after all the Senate swallowed the last lot of pony pooh, didn't they ??. Huh, they did, yes, yes ??.

They did, it's all cool boys, so back to the trough.

High Ho – away we go. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[VH-XXX]

What is your point Wallsofchina (aka Turboplanner), what is your magical solution to this problem?

[Kharon]

Kindly specify the names of those whom the Commonwealth DPP have prosecuted for breaches of the Civil Aviation Act/Regulations whom you claim "CASA has prosecuted" who were "innocent". Thank you.

Pray, very hard he does not. Gillard is not that secure. Fair dinkum and fair warning.

[Wallsofchina]

XXX
What is your point Wallsofchina (aka Turboplanner), what is your magical solution to this problem?

My point is this person is facing two years imprisonment for being unlicensed, two years imprisonment for being unregistered plus whatever else the police decide to throw at him.

I think that's an adequate message to tone down a lot of cowboys.

Your the one supporting selling off an innocent party's property.

Oh and by the way, guess again.

[Wallsofchina]

This one Kharon - yours I believe.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/469935-no-confidence-vote-here.html

[Sunfish]

Either give this guy Four to Six years in jail or make aircraft a prohibited weapon.

By that I mean either an aircraft is registered to a licenced pilot, like a firearm, or it is destroyed or confiscated.


Sorry to be a cynic, but that is the way authoritarians will think.

Ask yourself how you can regulate aircraft. Criminal Law? Check.

Any aviation activity without a licence is a crime? Check.

Aiding and abeting Aviation? Check.


Give this guy Six years in the slammer. If it can be proved that anyone aided or abetted him, give them a few years as well.

Otherwise, why the **ck am I paying for a PPL, Medicals, biennial Flight reviews and that ASIC as well as filling out the blood sheet and the Maintenance release????????????

To put it another way, I want blood or my entire investment in trying to do the right thing is obviously wasted.

[Arnold E]

By that I mean either an aircraft is registered to a licenced pilot, like a firearm, or it is destroyed or confiscated.

So what your saying is that you cant own an aircraft without a licence (pilot I presume).
Wow, so Joe Bloggs cant invest in an aircraft to put on line then.
Hmmm, just wondering where that puts Alan Joyce then.:hmm:

[SgtBundy]

This is no different to those on the road who drive drunk with kids in the back, or unlicensed, or do 130 in a 60 zone because they think their Hyundai Excel with sport stickers and a fart cannon is the same as a rally car. The 98% that do the right thing, take care and use common sense can only comply, they can't stop the idiots. The muppets out there are already doing illegal acts, more laws and nagging won't stop them. Unfortunately it takes an innocent party to come to grief at their hands before anything serious is done.

But once caught the system must be seen to apply the penalties. Otherwise I agree with Sunfish, if non-compliance has no penalty, what is the point in complying. CASA must be seen to take action on this - handing it off to the police to apply whatever they can make stick is a cop out (no pun intended), and if they cannot get a conviction out of this they don't deserve the job.

[baron_beeza]

I think for all the discussion we are still missing the point.

The man has lost his instrument panel and no-one here seems interested.

So much for the camaraderie amongst aviators. ;)

[SgtBundy]

Has he tried fishing for it? He got a good look at where all the holes are...

[Dangly Bits]

I'm with you Sunny.

Unfortunately with thousands of policemanofficers on the streets, they still can't stop hundreds of unlicensed drink drivers from driving on our roads!

How CASA could do the same with less than 200 Operational people, I do t know how they could stop a dozen idiotser year would be a stretch.

DB

[Jabawocky]

CASA should not need to try. Aviators are by nature and design meant to be a responsible and conservative with above average situational awareness skills.

That is self regulating and not in need of policing.

The problem is the bar has been lowered, that in most ways is a good thing, more opportunity for those with passion and less finances to participate, grow and learn. The downside is that it exposes us all to the greater chance of morons participating. Please refer to my largish post a couple of pages back if you have not read it for more details.

[Howard Hughes]

Please refer to my largish post a couple of pages back if you have not read it for more details.
Great post Jabba.:ok:

[Sarcs]

Yeah great post Jabba!!:D:D:D Obviously a subject you feel very passionate about.

Not sure about the above 'average' skillset argument??

I have mates who are ex jet fighter pilots who could do buzz jobs like that and way better all day ong in their Yak or even a Saphire UL, and not be any more dangerous than a Cessna overhead at 500'.....but I am not one of them, and nor are most of the RAA or GA community.

...one only has to troll through the crash comic archives to see a number of examples where apparently highly trained, highly experienced pilots have come to grief....Bud Holland comes to mind!:rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

...And furthermore, don't we all know that it is notoriously difficult to judge height over water?

[VH-XXX]

The Dam Busters managed that one well Sunfish AND they did it at night!!!

Maybe this guy was dam busting but busted his plane by accident. There is no doubt a dam wall on Lake Hume, perhaps he had just watched the movie because really I can't think of many other reasons why he would be dumb enough to do what he did!

[baron_beeza]

Quote:
Mr Bogaard yesterday said his memory was scratchy on what happened on Monday but was ruing the loss of the ultralight’s instrument panel.
“But I’m more concerned with the instrument panel. “I think it has been stolen after the crash, it was there in the water but no one knows where it has gone.”

With all this going on, he's worried about his missing ASI and ALT


I sense a conspiracy here. The panel may have the needle jammed at 510 feet.
Mr Bogaard could be deprived an opportunity to prove his innocence... are the Police, or CASA, that corrupt ?

;)

[Howard Hughes]

I would have thought, not having the instrument panel would be more in his favour!

[kaz3g]

Has he tried fishing for it? He got a good look at where all the holes are...

Probably hasn't got a fishing licence, either.

kaz

[Arnold E]

Probably hasn't got a fishing licence, either.
GREAT CAESAR'S GHOST, dont tell me I need a licence to catch fish now. how far do CASA's tentacles spread?:E

[Sunfish]

Casa licences are needed for catching flying fish.

[Flying Binghi]

.

Hmmm... whats the thread subject chap accused of doing. Flying around a lake chasing his mates speedboat or something... and some want to hang him..:confused: From what i see's of the boaty's down the Gold Coast and nearby lakes it is near mayhem at the best of times - Dont think a small plane in the mix would make any diference at all.


Fer some other context... We currently have the Australian government aiding and abbeting the Sea Shepherd terrorist group. Thats the clowns that go around ramming ocean going boats, foul the propellors of ocean going boats, shine lazer beams into the eye's of ship's captains, throw incendurys onto the decks of ocean going boats, etc... and recently, the Sea Shepherd terrorists have publicly stated that this year people will die. Whats the Oz government doing..?

Up North the Bob Brown/Gillard led Labore party is directly responsible for the deaths of hundred's of innocent boat people. Gillard is still sitting fat dumb and happy in Canberra and Bob Brown is still off with the fairys.


Looking at it, all our thread subject pilot needed to do before flying near the lake were to become a member of Sea Shepherd and the Greens then he coulda flown over the lake at his hearts content and sunk as many boatys as he liked and all that woulda happened is Bob Brown Woulda blamed Murdoch for it all...



....oh, and Jabawocky would still blame poor pilots and the RAA..:)






.

[Wallsofchina]

So far he's accused of not having a licence (2 years gaol), and not having the aircraft registered (2 years gaol).

It's yet to be established if he's poor, but God help him if he is because in that case according to Jabba, that would make him a moron, or would he then get off?

[Lookleft]

No, his actions make him a moron not his financial status. He wasn't chasing a mate's boat according to the newspaper article but scaring the daylights out of a family enjoying a bit of boating. The fact that he eventually collided with the water is evidence of, at the minimum, a lack of judgement as to what could possibly go wrong with his "maneouvres". The problem with low flying, other than for legitimate reasons, is it is usually part of a desire to show off. The ATSB has plenty of examples of where the desire to show the world how good their skills are have resulted in misery for a lot more people than just the pilot.

[blackhand]

That is self regulating and not in need of policing.
That is a joke, surely??

[Jabawocky]

No not really.....but yes I understand the cynical view.

The vast majority are sensible and responsible and even when doing something a little bit naughty have mitigated against the risks and getting caught.

These folk are self regulating, they do not need big brother all over them.

A small portion, do not seem to function that way....look at the Metro prang in FNQ.

Lookleft :ok:Preciisely, seems some folk do not get it. :ugh: Or are serial forum trolls, either way :ugh:

[VH-XXX]

That is a joke, surely??

As Jaba says, one would think that aviators could indeed be self regulated given the extent that one needs to go to to obtain the licences, endorsements and AOC's etc to legally operate, but in reality it has been proven time and time again that human nature prevails and that doesn't happen.

I think the "povo pilot" comments ring true in many situations. Guys with their half mil SR22's or Bonanza's generally don't chase boats around a Lake at 2 ft for fun because they are generally smart and successful people that understand the implications of what they are doing. They understand the financial and legal risks involved in flying an SR22 or Bonanza at 2 feet above the water knowing the risks of being caught or the fact that their insurance won't pay out.

Bring in John Average and his $10,000 very light ultralight with ASI and ALT representing the "panel" and you're more likely to see behaviour as we have seen because the loss of that aircraft is far less significant than the bigger example.

The Christmas Day 172 powerline fatality was a good example of this too, but was at the bottom end of GA. A dirty old 172, owner maintained because he wouldn't pay a mechanic, operated out of a 300 metre strip on the side of a hill because he was kicked out of all the strips he operated from for being dangerous.


Why do Flying Binghi's posts keep disappearing????

[DBTW]

So an unlicenced bloke in an unregistered aircraft does a beat up on a boat full of unwary citizens...and then the bloke in the aircraft crashes. Which part of that story is good news for aviation?

Misunderstanding what Jabba has said, or taking quotations out of context, doesn't justify what the unlicenced bloke did in the unregistered aeroplane.

Jabba's points seem well made. From any perspective what unlicenced bloke did was wrong and he has been caught out. Not sure whether the unlicenced bloke is rich or poor, but the I think the message has been well made that RAAus is open to a broader spectrum of society. It's cheaper so there is no argument there. If they are going to police this kind of thing they will have their work cut out because this bloke wasn't even in the RAAus!

[Old but not bold]

We can all sit here and post replies on what an idiot and a moron this "pilot" is but the real issue is how we, as responsable Pilots are viewed by the general public, I suggest a bit of this will rub off on all of us?
Also if he thought he was 500 feet above the water, maybe his eyesight is the reason he does not have a valid licence??
Hi Ho :ugh:

[Flying Binghi]

Why do Flying Binghi's posts keep disappearing????

News to me..:confused:


...unlicenced bloke...

My understanding is the RAA issue certificates, not a licence as such. Many RAA 'pilots' do not have a pilots licence.

So far the only actual facts we have on the mater that i am aware of is the chap did not have an RAA certificate and that the aircraft was not RAA registered. The chap may very well have a CASA issued pilots licence though.






.

[Flying Binghi]

Perhaps our thread subject pilot were just thrilling to the joy of flight...

Top 10 Low Pass Flybys of All Time - YouTube







.

[VH-XXX]

What about this post that went missing?


Sundry exerpts via Jabawocky # 59; “….mind you RAA never… …to RAA and… …Everything from RAAus… …seems to be coming from RAA folk, and when you weed out of the RAAus membership… … survey DID NOT include RAA… … to RAAus… … most of the RAA… …why is it the RAA… … most likely RAA as its cost to entry is far less… … my opinion RAA are most likyle going to be the ones with the increasing proflem… …this is not a slag off at them at all.
… yeah, not a slag off at all.. Jabawocky, ah sorta get the impression yer don’t like poor pilots…
Seems to me that the only ‘flung dung’ ah has seen on this subject is right here in thisa thread…



Fair call though, any amount of regulation from either of the governing bodies be it CASA or RA-Aus won't stop this kind of thing happening in the future. It always has and always will.

Interesting question on what would happen if the pilot was a valid PPL holder or higher. It has been proven before in court that the PPL is a higher level of licence than the RA-Aus certificate, so that would potentially remove the unlicenced part. Won't matter much in the end.


Good video. Brings back memories from my old field, but long gone are those days now that everyone has a video or camer in their phone.

[Arnold E]

aircraft was not RAA registered.

Is that known to be 100% fact? just wondering what the "lettering" on the tail is. I am not computer savvy enough to enlarge the posted photos to see.
Agreed that it would not make any difference to the stupidity of the act, but curious all the same.

[VH-XXX]

It "WAS" RA-Aus registered, as in USED to be registered, but it wasn't financially current, like the pilot, thus un-registered and un-licenced and it was only ever a student licence at that. The rego numbers are still attached. The RA-Aus media release was that both aircraft and pilot (driver) were unlicenced.

[Arnold E]

It "WAS" RA-Aus registered, as in USED to be registered, but it wasn't financially current,Ok thanks, I did not understand that reg "runs out" on Raa aircraft, I thought it was like GA where it is registered until it is cancelled. I understand about the pilot certificate.

Actually, it doesn't sound like Raa is all that cheap.

[VH-XXX]

(Prices might be out of date)

$165 per year for membership (includes magazine and 3rd party insurance)
$220 for the first years rego on a 2 seater
$110 for subsequent years rego, renewable

In the GA world I paid $25 for lifetime rego although I believe that's now $135+.

It's not "cheap" but the insurance is worth while so it means you are only up for hull cover if you want it.

[Wallsofchina]

It's not cheap AE

A good cross country aircraft will set you back $130,000 +

The Jabiru sits underneath that at about $70 - $100,000 and then you have to keep replacing engines on much shorter cycles.

If you were looking to equate morons into the lower financial demographic you'd be seeing bad flying from the Dad's Army flying the scrap metal flotilla of C150's, 172's and PA28's, and even more in the people who just hire aircraft.

I'd suggest bad behaviour is across all demographics.

[Arnold E]

Dad's Army flying the scrap metal flotilla of C150's, 172's and PA28's,

I guess I could be put in the dads army category, but, I had a 150 that was definitely not scrap metal after I finished doing it up and I would not put my flying in the same category as the clown we are talking about here. So what I am saying is that age of pilot and age of the machine he is flying has nothing to do with his/hers ability to conduct a safe flight.:ok:

[baron_beeza]

Ok, so we have an annual renewal fee.

What happens if it is not renewed ?
Obviously letters and reminders would be sent out but would a list of currently registered and un-registered machines be sent through to CASA ?

I am not fully aware of the system in NZ but I think there would be an annual renewal across the board.
Most aircraft would be subject to an Annual Review of Airworthiness where all details are checked by the maintenance guy, (Flight Manual amendments etc) and then the return sent in to CAA.

This certainly applies to certified machines, - homebuilts and gliders will have a minor variation on that.
I am not sure what the micro-light and ultralight fraternity have in place.

The way I am reading this one is that if you are up to date with your subscriptions then you are an RAA member.
It seems strange that if you don't pay then are no longer under their auspices... even though the registration is still on the tail.

Would it not be in RAA's best interest to clamp down on these types. The aircraft fished out of the lake won't be alone. The organisation is loosing the subscription finances and also taking the bad Press, - as indeed we all are here.
Wasn't there an issue with either the licence or the registration of Mr F Wheel also ?

From where I am sitting this is not a good look. At all !!

[Wallsofchina]

That was my point also AE.
I find the suggestion that people who spend hundreds of hours building up a recreational aircraft produce the most morons just because they aren't rich an offensive suggestion and way off reality.

[VH-XXX]

A significant number of RA-Aus members did not renew their membership last year and the number of non-renewed aircraft was excessively large.

Either people are flying unlicenced and or unregistered or there are a lot of aircraft sitting in hangars not doing anything.

Lapsing rego is a pain in the butt as a L2 inspection would likely be required, even if the aircraft is owner maintained.

If someone chooses to not register their aircraft any more or not renew their membership, there is nothing that RA-Aus can do about it. They can't enforce removal of the rego numbers as they have no juristiction over the aircraft, nor does CASA in the same situation.

The F Wheel was a different scenario. Aircraft was supposedly registered but the supposedly the serial number didn't match.

[Wallsofchina]

The lapse in registrations and licences is probably financial,and the aircraft are probably sitting in the sheds.

After this incident there would be very few tempted to risk flying unlicenced - this will put a scare right through the industry.

Makes you wonder if the penalties are also severe for flying undendorsed.

The Ferris Wheel case has taken a strange twist if anyone wants to look at the thread on AP.

[rutan around]

Just wondering where the very high speed very low flying video clip is going to take the rich-poor safe- unsafe debate because I'd bet a Citation to a Citabria that not one of those pilots had a red cent invested in any of those jets.
Cheers RA

[ChrisJ800]

The Ferris Wheel case has taken a strange twist if anyone wants to look at the thread on AP

Whats the twist or can you post the link?

[Jabawocky]

WOC

You still do not get it do you :rolleyes:

Being Rich or Not so rich has bugger all to do with the debate if you put it in the context you are using, The poor are not flying at all, period.

Back to what I actually said and meant was the gradient of cost, the income to fund and the level of common sense is somewhat tracable, albeit with blemishes along the way.

Fact is, that is life in the human race, and you can be offended as much as you like by your own chip on shoulder view, but the reality of life is such.

Guys with their half mil SR22's or Bonanza's generally don't chase boats around a Lake at 2 ft for fun because they are generally smart and successful people that understand the implications of what they are doing. They understand the financial and legal risks involved in flying an SR22 or Bonanza at 2 feet above the water knowing the risks of being caught or the fact that their insurance won't pay out.

This sums it up well.

I am actively involved in the sport end of the industry, and I can tell you this allows a certain amount of exactly the same problem to participate based on budget. But we also see some Cashed Up Morons too. The thing is as the bar gets lower the chances get greater.

My earlier comments still stand, this reflects badly on all of us, up to the bottom of RPT. It will be the public perception that counts. It is RAAus who have the most to lose and to work on just by the facts of life mentioned above. The RFDS have a far lesser chance of having to deal with this problem than RAAus. The facts have been stated, so judge them as they are. Seems many here have and agree. Your view might well be different. I look forward to a far better analysis from you as to what you believe the situation is.

Cheerio! :ok:

[Jack Ranga]

You're wasting your time with the numpty Jab. I know most others get your point (except for one notable exception ;))

I for one appreciate your efforts :ok: most informative and thought provoking!

[Flying Binghi]

#141; ...The poor are not flying at all, period...



...:hmm: Hmmm... i've heard storys of builders of limited means building aircraft fer under 5 grand under the 95-10 reg's.





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[VH-XXX]

Whats the twist or can you post the link?

There is no twist at all, both events involved equally moronic acts.

[Kharon]

Well done Jabba, great effort; as always. Jack_R; as usual, spot on and said it all.

Remember Grass hopper - "the Woc that cooked the food is not the Chef". :D

It makes as much sense as the troll does. :ugh: Too many shut down threads from that 'poster' for you to worry about.

Children, there are Legal, aviation community and "public perception" issues here to worry about.

Again - If the public, through the press begin to think there is an issue, look out.

We, the 'aircrew' need to sort this out; perhaps a RAA /GA/ Airline statement that (to us_ sic collective) this episode is abhorrent to all, may help. (Spin it 'till it burns).

Sensitive little sausage, ain't it. :D

[Wallsofchina]

Jabawocky I do get it, you repeated it in post #141

[baron_beeza]

Exactly, and just what have the general public seen.

In the space of a few weeks we have made headlines yet again.
If you think about Joe Public's impressions.
One will be of an aircraft impaled in a Ferris Wheel just metres from two children, the other an aircraft just metres from a boat towing a child on a ski. They may even remember the wreckage being dragged from the water also.

That is that. If you ask them about the article they may say the pilots were unlicensed.

So that is the impression the media have portrayed, - and in this case they may be 100% accurate.

It is a matter for the aviation community to resolve... the only time aviation makes the news big time is when we have an accident or incident.
Sure the bad reporting irks us but the fact remains that we are creating the adverse publicity.

It worries me. I know it is been going on for a long time and may be difficult to turn around. ****, many of the instructors/Check pilots, in my log book are no longer with us.

I am afraid to pick it up and even look through the past entries.
Is aviation really this dangerous ?

[Wallsofchina]

Is aviation this dangerous?

Fortunately not, Baron, haven't looked up the exact figures but in Australia we have about 6000 private GA pilots and 9600 RAA pilots flying safely.

These are just the very few abberations, but unfortunately they are the ones which attract attention and that gets us all fired up.

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... ah thinks we is getting a few 'beatups' in this thread..:hmm:





.

[Jabawocky]

Figures can lie WOC

Off that 9600 how many are or were prior to letting their CASA licences lapse actually GA/RPT pilots?

I do not know the answer exactly but most RAA folk I know are Airline and GA pilots, and if that is the case the stats are less overwhelming. My guess would be 35-40%.

Ask Tiz!

Glad you got it too:ok:

[Wallsofchina]

Make it just 15,600 pilots then so there is no demarcation

[Kharon]

Many, many years ago, manure from country farms was shipped, in sacks, into convenient ports to fertilize crops for the residents of the local big towns. Anyway, they inexplicably lost a large number of the boats that transported the stuff. Seems that Methane and salt water combined created an explosive gas which, when exposed to a candle flame, instantly destroyed the boats transporting the stuff. Well, the boys from Lloyd's sorted it out. New label on the bags – Ship High In Transit.

About the same time seems that London courts were experiencing a surge in cases of Forced Unlawful Carnal Knowledge.

Funny old time back then, wasn't it. Gotta love history, don't ya.!.

Aviation content – flying debris; (FOD).

[Jabawocky]

15,600 ?

How do you get that?

6000 GA + 4800 RAA only perhaps?

Remember I do not claim to have actuals but from 9600 there are a heap of GA and RPT guys also. So let's not get carried away with unreal statistical analysis.

In the lighter end of aviation operations we have a problem that might bite us all on the ass one day. Maximum vigilance is required in the sectors where the risk of the morons getting the better of us all has the greater chance.

Maybe this is a method of achieving an acceptable means of compliance :}
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=6CMa0_QNq-k&v=6CMa0_QNq-k&gl=AU)

[cficare]

...it seems to me that wherever you are in human 'endevour'.."Darwin" was right and nature will weed out the weak.




..or at least...leave them 'grounded'.

[VH-XXX]

RAA has 9000+ members of which a lot are student pilots and a lot don't ever fly (like someone in this discussion who is a veteran armchair pilot), plus many of those are PPL to ATPL so it would be difficult to attempt to add those to come up with a total and even more difficult to work out how this is at all relevant to this discussion.

[Kharon]

..or at least...leave them 'grounded'.

This nugget didn't 'know' (don't ask me) that it should be in the pub, not over the dam, chasin' bo-ats and kids. FCS.

How do "we" maintain credibility in the public eye, not ours. We know - but does Joe Public. They sure as hell understand their kids on a Ferris wheel etc. etc.

They could not tell a SAAB from a Cherokee on a good day, let alone the day after they buried their children.

[Flying Binghi]

...even more difficult to work out how this is at all relevant to this discussion.

The relavence is this is an RAA bash thread..:hmm:


Methinks poster Ultralights from another forum put it well -

"Why the big storm? Low flying. Nothing new. Unlicensed? Half of India's airline pilots have been found to be unlicensed

It's not an RAAus issue, it's a human issue. just give him a fine, suspend his licence, and get on with our lives."

( is it the same Ultralights as this forum ?)


And also from the other forum -

"The registration of the aircraft in question had expired some time ago. The Pilots membership and licence had also expired some time ago. This accident has nothing to do with RA-Aus and will not be investigated by RA-Aus" via J McQ


Thanks to WallsofChina for reminding me there are other forums out there..:ok:




.

[Wallsofchina]

And without Little Fauss and Big Halsy FB

[blackhand]

New evidence to hand suggests the pilot was trying to avoid birds that are prevalent over the Hume Dam.

[metalman2]

New evidence to hand suggests the pilot was trying to avoid birds that are prevalent over the Hume Dam.

geez you've got good eyes,,from the photos I couldn't tell the sex of the skier!

great post though,,,except no one here will have any bearing on the out come,,,unless we storm the gaol and drag the bugger out to the nearest tree, I guess we'll have to leave it to the authorities to deal with the dumb ass !

The bottom line for all of us is that the cost of setting up a police state at every little bit of flat grass to catch the bad guys(gals) is ridiculous,,,the only way this kind of thing will be kept to a minimum (it will never be eliminated) is for those who care to grow some balls and deal with stuff like this on the field,,,we can start with a quiet word to the errant pilot,,,if no good ,,a public word may bring out others with similar concerns,,,,,if still no joy then off to the regulator ,,,, the reason this guy has got to where he is is because the other pilots at the field where he resides did nothing,,,the consequences are his alone but the other airfield users should be doing a lot of soul searching on why they stood by and did nothing,,,we need to ask our selves,,,would I have the guts to say something face to face and damn the repercussions or would I save my courage for an anonymous forum after the event.:ok:

[blackhand]

I think the "povo pilot" comments ring true in many situations. Guys with their half mil SR22's or Bonanza's generally don't chase boats around a Lake at 2 ft for fun
Na, they do beatups at Hamilton Island in a Trojan at 3 ft off the deck, or beat ups at Port Maq in an MU2 and pullup at the end that leaves the aircraft with Gull wings.

[Kharon]

Inquest into the death of Philip Henry SCHOLL. Thomas Braes, Coroner, Mareeba 27th January, 2009.

There are some elements of this coronial inquest which are very worthy of your notice:-
1) Counsel Assisting.
2) The Coroner made 58 recommendations, of which 38 began 'CASA should'.
3) Mr Thomas Braes, Coroner is clearly a man of intelligence, some wit and has pretty much summed it all up very adroitly.
4) There were 72 deaths during the 5 year period examined. It is interesting to note that deaths in the age group between 50 and 59 accounted for 21 of them, a further 12 were between 60 and 69. All male.

The inquest is food for serious thought. The Regs allow a Chief pilot to delegate authority but not responsibility. Perhaps CASA could part with some of their newly acquired, publicly donated wealth to the ATSB and RAA to allow them to function properly.

The failure of CASA to directly participate in these proceedings further highlights the lack of priority given to the management of the recreation aviation industry by the statutorily appointed and government funded regulator.

[QUOTE]Throughout this inquiry it became obvious that a weakness in the current system is the regulatory regime and the enforcement of the rules applicable to the recreation aviation industry. Put simply, the regulator is CASA. CASA delegates some authority to RA-AUS and HGFA although this delegation does not extend to prosecutions. It became obvious the level of communication and co-operation between HGFA, RA-AUS, ATSB and CASA is such that the community at large could have no confidence that the regulatory regime, being the legislation and the rules of the delegated unincorporated bodies, are being adequately administered and enforced.
]

My bold.

[Wallsofchina]

This person isn't a member of RAA Kharon, so what's the relevance?

[VH-XXX]

Na, they do beatups at Hamilton Island in a Trojan at 3 ft off the deck, or beat ups at Port Maq in an MU2 and pullup at the end that leaves the aircraft with Gull wings.

Down the runway though, or elsewhere?

Whilst it's not entirely legal in all circumstances, the runway is the best place for a beatup in my opinion.

2 ft wheels down, 3 ft wheels up, sounds like plenty of margin there!

[blackhand]

This person isn't a member of RAA Kharon, so what's the relevance?
The relevance is that it is all CASA's and RAA's fault.

[SgtBundy]

New evidence to hand suggests the pilot was trying to avoid birds that are prevalent over the Hume Dam.

Nasty how those buggers jump up suddenly at 500 AGL and give you no where to go but the water.

[VH-XXX]

Seriously, not shooting the messenger however that has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

People will say anything when they are desperate. This guy should have kept his mouth FIRMLY shut after the accident. NO COMMENT people!

[Flying Binghi]

...it is all CASA's and RAA's fault

Its only the fault of the poor CASA people blackhand.. ;)




.

[VH-XXX]

We all get the point, move on, we've done the poor pilot part to death.

The most constructive thing that can be done is discussion on how to avoid such events happening in the future and what you / we personally can do to actively prevent them, such as education, lobbying, peer pressure etc so as to continue to enjoy your sport as you do now.

[Wallsofchina]

Who appointed you Chairperson?

If you want to start cleaning things up, start with post #164

Yes FB, definitely not the people who inherited their wealth, or cheat their customers and don't pay their taxes.

[VH-XXX]

You are more than welcome to be Chairperson Wallsofchina/Shrike135, but please offer something constructive rather than just criticizing everything that other valued contributors have provided.

[Wallsofchina]

Firstly, I'm not the one telling people to move on.
Secondly, guess again
Thirdly, I'm criticising RAAus bashing, but EVERYONE should be criticising someone who uses an accident thread to promote beatups down runways 2 feet off the ground.
It's not so long ago that you were actually asking people to vote for you to MANAGE behaviour like this. How do you think it looks?

[Arnold E]

but EVERYONE should be criticising someone who uses an accident thread to promote beatups down runways 2 feet off the ground.
It's not so long ago that you were actually asking people to vote for you to MANAGE behaviour like this. How do you think it looks?

Hard not to agree with WC there.

[Jabawocky]

WOC

you are losing the plot.

Thirdly, I'm criticising RAAus bashing, but EVERYONE should be criticising someone who uses an accident thread to promote beatups down runways 2 feet off the ground.
It's not so long ago that you were actually asking people to vote for you to MANAGE behaviour like this. How do you think it looks?

Nowhere..and I mean NOWHERE did I see anyone on this thread promoting beatups. Period!

Just like one other serial pest around here, you have taken some legitimate comment about something else, and made an accusation OUT OF CONTEXT.

blackhand said;Na, they do beatups at Hamilton Island in a Trojan at 3 ft off the deck, or beat ups at Port Maq in an MU2 and pullup at the end that leaves the aircraft with Gull wings.

To which XXX said; Quote:
Na, they do beatups at Hamilton Island in a Trojan at 3 ft off the deck, or beat ups at Port Maq in an MU2 and pullup at the end that leaves the aircraft with Gull wings.
Down the runway though, or elsewhere?

Whilst it's not entirely legal in all circumstances, the runway is the best place for a beatup in my opinion.



So take a rest hey, you are digging a hole here, so deep it could be filled with water and water skiing folk afraid of aerial attackers!

[Wallsofchina]

"Whilst it's not entirely legal in all circumstances, the runway is the best place for a beatup in my opinion.

"2 ft wheels down, 3 ft wheels up, sounds like plenty of margin there!"

Yeah Right!

[Up-into-the-air]

Hear Hear Jabba.

Good posts are what people want to see, with good information.

Worth a read the post from Kharon, which I have now read and you can find on:

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/86786/cif-scholl-ph-20090127.pdf

It deserves careful thought as to the actions of the regulator.

[VH-XXX]

Thanks Jaba, hear hear, I don't think everyone is going to go out and do beat-ups down the runway because of a comment about 3 ft beat-ups that has been taken out of context. I said that the best place for a beat-up is down the runway. That beat-up could be an airshow or an aerobatic pilot or whatever is legal, but not 2ft above a recreational lake amongst powerboats and skiers.

Perhaps WOC should should offer his skills and experience in marketing that he has been mentioning of late to work closely with RA-Aus to assist them in being constructive and developing content for their new website. The new website will be running very soon. Start with segments on the dangers of low flying, pilot behaviour and human factors that he appears to be passionate about.

Perhaps include information on the importance of pilots remaining current, in particular their licence and registration and how they would be un-insured should they lapse financially. Maybe he could also write some articles to the editor of Sport Pilot magazine; cover off maintenance items, best practices and information from his experience working with engines. RA-Aus are always interested in hearing from people that are able to run workshops such as maintenance on airframe and engine. Perhaps if someone were to assist or run such events, then others may benefit and might not be tempted to do the wrong thing next time they go out flying.

[Jabawocky]

WOC

He is commenting on someone elses post about a trojan allegedly at a class D aerodrome, doing what might well be an approved pass.

If you are doing such displays whether they are legal or not....and XXX is not suggesting you or anyone go doing them if not legal, but his point is the best place for a low pass, is over a runway. Ever noticed that is where airshow displays are done?

Maybe this is a glass half full/empty argument. :hmm:

I have had enough for now!

[Wallsofchina]

Most of the rest of us had enough a few pages ago.

[Jabawocky]

Up into the air

It deserves careful thought as to the actions of the regulator.The problem I see here is, that the criticism in the coroners report of the regulator and RAA is seemingly justified, yet how do you enforce the morons?

I do think tighter control over training and education of the membership is possibly the only way. When you have poorly maintained microlights or King Airs, poorly trained RAA students or poorly trained RFDS CPL's you could expect somewhat similar results. When you look at what we really have is chalk and cheese. One system costs a damned sight more than the other too. The problem is to keep the morons from doing these dumb things or keep them out altogether will cost RAA a massive fortune, and in the process the rank and file will be screaming about rights being taken away etc etc.

I do not know what the answer is, but it reflects badly on all of us every time one of the dumb accidents happen. Look at the Piper prang a few months back, I suspect that is a classic case of confusing ambition with ability. It reflects on all of us.

Education is about the only way I can think of. At all levels, Good education costs lots of money to cover many areas. So costs go up. This will be the challenge for RAO's where everyone wants their freedom too.

Freedom is not Free!

Maybe Chopper has the answer to fixing all these morons or whatever he calls them.....(be warned coarse language)

RSEgeg-3ts0

[blackhand]

The problem I see here is, that the criticism in the coroners report of the regulator and RAA is seemingly justified
That is one perspective.
Another is that the only person involved in the accident not lying was the dead bloke.
How the coroner could decide to believe some lies and not others is most intriguing.
And again, how the f...k could any blame be laid on CASA or RAA is beyond me.

[Howard Hughes]

If it's over the runway it's not a 'beat up', it's a 'baulked approach'!:ok:

I forgot to add, "your Honour"...;)

[Wallsofchina]

Arnold, never let a bully win. I'd rather read your posts than the self congratulatory drivel I've been reading on this thread.
I think we know which are the real serial pests.

[T28D]

Arnold E and Walls, hang in there, ultimately they will Jabba away and fade into XXX oblivilon patting themselves on the back for saving General Aviation from itself.

Patience is the game.

[squawk6969]

Now, there is a someone who is qualified on unwelcome beatups in heavy metal. :=

[Jabawocky]

Arnold E
Wow Jabba, I assume you are referring to me

Where on earth did you get that idea......You and I are usually on the same page, 99% of the time, now the serial pest I was referring to so far has not posted on this page. So WOC....maybe you might wish to rethink??

Gooday T28D :ok:, in your learned opinion, what do you make of the consequences of this Saphire beat up and crach story? How will it go down with industry, the public image and the long arm of the law?

Offer something constructive from your years of experience rather than attempts at dung stirring.

[T28D]

So a clown in an unregistered "aircraft" without any form of licence or approval crashes.

Reckless endangerment of the people he was no doubt trying to impress.

Otherwise just another loose cannon in the Australian red neck landscape, no more or no less than an unlicenced clown on an unregistered motorbike running into a cafe or alfresco area.

You all can whip this up into some sort of dreadful occurrence, but in the overall scheme of things, no one hurt, clown loses his toy, no doubt facing some nasty NSW statutory charges.

Aviation, how righteous thou art, but it is not really relevant, isolated incident.

The public couldn't give a toss, and keeping this thread going is only feeding the ego of the posters !!!!!

[Deaf]

How will it go down with industry

As always - blame the others

the public image

They are Cowboys/rich cowboys/Overpaid cowboys

the long arm of the law?

depends on the mouthpiece but in this case he/she with have to work to avoid a custodial result

[Jabawocky]

Mostly agree with you in simple terms.

Disagree the thread has anything to do with ego's of the posters, not one of them as far as I am concerned, but hey each to his own opinion.

Where I do disagree, is that this is not an isolated incident, sure its not a daily thing, but I have it on good authority that folk within CASA are very much concerned about such things, their far more pro-active participation in recent times, which is welcome by the way, is also a double edged sword.

Be it RAA Warbirds GFA SAAA Gyro folk HGFA you name the group, with privileges comes responsibilities and also comes T&C's...or strings attached. Refer my earlier posts. Despite what some may think they are not RAA bashes, sooner or later some mud sticks and may well stick to all of us.

Thanks for a good reply! :)

[Flying Binghi]

...they are not RAA bashes, sooner or later some mud sticks...

Hmmm... seems to me that Jabawocky uses every chance he can to have a go at RAA..:hmm:

About 6 months ago ah think it were when Jabawocky suffered a fit of histeria and offered up all sort of abuse to any poster that disagreed with him. Moderator let Jabawocky go on for some time digging his little hole before closing the thread.... It were a sad read.






.

[Flying Binghi]

via Wallsofchina #170; ...don't pay their taxes...

Seeing the way our current govmint is pissing good money against the wind in the name of global warming, ah dont think i'd blame anyone fer not wanting to give the idiots any more money to waste..:)





.

[Flying Binghi]

.

Back to the thread subject...

We dont really have any factual inforemation to go with at this time.

The only two definate facts we have about this alleged incident is that the pilot were not RAA and the aircraft were not RAA.

Seems to me us experts here should wait until CASA has worked out what happened and the matter concluded before we make grandious statements and determinations about how best to fix 'whatever'




....and that's my grandious determination of this issue..:cool:

.

[Much Ado]

No, bring me a bucket:yuk: