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tartare
1st Jan 2012, 05:15
Compliments of the season to all.
Without wanting to elicit any info that may be classified, purely out of curiosity I'm trying to understand what being on fast jet quick reaction alert in the UK actually entails.
Is a pilot physically seated in the aircraft in the QRA hangar, plugged into all systems for the duration of their `shift' with all essential avionics etc. powered up, ready to light the fire and get airborne - or is that only what happened during the Cold War?
There are some QRA videos online of Eurofighter Typhoons - but they seem a little unrealistic - pilots running to aircraft and strapping in - very WW2.
I would have thought that strapping into and powering up a Typhoon or similar fast jet would take several minutes at least.
I seem to remember accounts on this site from pilots who sounded like they'd spent several hours strapped and plugged into Tonkas in the hangar, just waiting... or am I mistaken...

ORAC
1st Jan 2012, 07:59
Is a pilot physically seated in the aircraft in the QRA hangar, plugged into all systems for the duration of their `shift' with all essential avionics etc. powered up, ready to light the fire and get airborne - or is that only what happened during the Cold War?
There are some QRA videos online of Eurofighter Typhoons - but they seem a little unrealistic - pilots running to aircraft and strapping in - very WW2.

Very WW2? That's the way it was throughout the Cold War!!

Alert can held either mounted or dismounted. The number of minutes depending on the aircraft type, also the length of time that the state can be held.

Mounted states are aircraft and crew intensive and not practical for QRA. Unmounted alert times are generally driven by how it takes the aircraft systems to come on line, simpler aircraft requiring less, rather than pilot reaction time.

During exercises, whilst parked on the ORP, the Hawk could manage RS2 with the pilot in a deck chair beside the cockpit, though RS05 was the norm. For QRA the Lightning held RS10, which was achievable with the pilot in bed in the Q Shed. (I believe that for the RAFG Battle Flight they managed RS05, though I never served there so cannot confirm.

When the F4 took over that slipped to RS15, mainly, IIRC, because of the time required to align the INAS platform.

A certain tanker aircraft could hold RS30 for about a week. When asked what the limiting factor was I was advised they would hold it with the crew living down the back and they'd have to go off state once a week to empty the toilets and restock the rations........

newt
1st Jan 2012, 08:38
Five minutes for Battle Flight at Gutersloh. Pilots sleeping or working dressed in their flying suits. Usually airborne in under thee minutes!

Those were the days!!!!:):):):):):)

trap one
1st Jan 2012, 08:49
ORAC
IIRC
It was RS10 for the F4 but the RS15 slip was for the Tornado F3. Don't think the Tornado F2 ever held QRA but I could be wrong.

Lima Juliet
1st Jan 2012, 08:49
When the F4 took over that slipped to RS15, mainly, IIRC, because of the time required to align the INAS platform

The advent of modern LASER Inertial Nav Systems and embedded GPS (LINS/GPS or EGIs) reduced the time to react again - you can even align during taxy on some types.

"Mounted" is more commonly known as "Cockpit Ready" or plain "Cockpit". You can be called to "Cockpit" from a lower Readiness State (RS) - ie. RS30 or Readiness State 30 minutes.

I was once scrambled in the Falklands when on RS15 whilst in the shower - I ran to the jet in my long-johns with my kit in my arms and began getting it started whilst standing on the aircraft steps. We still made 15 minutes and were up to meet the inquisitor.

Happy New Year

LJ

NutherA2
1st Jan 2012, 09:48
During the "Konfrontasi" in the Far East, it was impractical to hold CR on Javelin QRA for protracted periods, on account of high temperatures. FEAF decided that Readiness 10 was too long a reaction time, so there was a kind of Dutch auction, resulting an a crew-room state of Alert 7. It was unusual to take longer than 5 minutes to get airborne, though, whether the crew was awake or sleeping when the scramble was ordered.

BEagle
1st Jan 2012, 09:53
On a Certain Tanker Type, we held so-called 3 hrs from home. But that actually meant 61 min, because to hold a formal 60 min would be rather demanding of infrastructure, with some form of 'Q shed' accommodation needed.

It was certainly expected that we would be airborne asap if scrambled from bed at home. Called at 0-dark-00, throw on kit, 15 min drive to the aerodrome, then through the station and over to southside to climb in. Meanwhile the groundcrew would have the power set running etc. Start, taxy, airborne in about 40 min from deep sleep....

The best I recall is 7 minutes from scramble in the crew room, onto the bus to drive to 'RUST' where the jet was parked. Air Eng started the engines and powered everything up as everyone else strapped in. As usual though, the biggest delay was waiting for the INS....

Great days!

We also used the '20 min rule' - if you were reverted to a lower readiness state, it was prudent to wait in case someone at the ADOC changed their mind. This happened on one occasion; the crew was at 15 min sitting in the jet and asked for a Sitrep update. Ops queried the ADOC, who replied "OK, let them go!" - which Ops took to mean stand the crew down. Whereas actually the ADOC had meant them to launch! On another occasion we'd been called out - the navigator lived in Cirencester. By the time everyone was in, we were reverted to 3 hrs, so the navigator drove home without waiting. Just as he got home, his pager went off; he answered the phone to be told we'd been scrambed from 3 hrs. Back into his car and back to Brize only to see us taking off - we'd found another nav!

In the early days, if scrambled it was very necessary to get to the jet asap to avoid having your trip pinched by the Boss!

The standard from Brize was to turn at 500ft direct for Wallasey, climbing to about FL310, then pedal to the metal towards the play area. Some interpretation of 500ft was a bit liberal and after the late G**g M**K****n had, with the help of a strong easterly wind, managed to turn between Stn Ops and where the C-17s now live, we'd had a bit of a finger wagging from on high:=. Shortly afterwards, in the early hours of a hot, humid and airless summer morning we were scrambled with the Boss flying. The wind was just within limits for a downwind take-off on RW08(Short), so off we thundered at full power. Rather than climb at V2+20, he accelerated straight to min flap retract speed, then remembering the edict, waited until 500 ft before he turned...... (High ISA dev, tailwind, diurnal effect, shallow climb angle...:uhoh:) As a result, we roared over west Witney at rather low level, waking up most of Thorney Leys and the Windrush Valley Estate - a mate who lived in Thorney Leys later said that the 'sound of freedom' was quite indescribable! Radio Oxford's switchboard was jammed and the Stn Cdr wasn't best pleased. Strangely enough, no-one mentioned early turns after that....

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 10:47
As we don't fly either type any more, it's safe to say that it was indeed 10 minutes for the F4 on UK QRA, 5 minutes for F4 Battle flight in Germany and 15 in the F3, although usually faster than that. The point about the INs is that they didn't require a full alight because they were aligned whilst putting the jet on state and then the paltform was locked in its aligned position so that it could be rapidly aligned during a scramble. We could keep certain parts of the equipment powered to reduce the warm up time.

The F3 had twin INs and took a little longer to warm up/spin up. The advent of Ring Laser Gyros did make a difference, but you were probably already at the point where getting the crew into the jet and the engines fired up was the limiting factor.

I was scrambled once in Ascension Island in 1982 where adrenaline took us from asleep to airborne in 3 minutes. I don't think I was fully awake until the gear was up! So Wideawake Airfield wasn't such an appropraite name after all!

Tartare, I'll send you a couple of links to my own description of QRA together with some old documentary film that should give you a good idea about it. PM to follow when I get a bit of time.

Courtney

Pontius Navigator
1st Jan 2012, 10:47
IIRC the FG1 at Leuchars did not have an INAS so that was not a factor. The FGR2 did have INAS but had options of a full align or a partial align, that latter of course being less accurate.

The F2 didn't hold Q. While at Coningsby the OCU worked up the F2 while the F4 would hold Q on rotation. Once Leeming achieved initial capability the F3 QRA was mounted from there rather than Coninsgby.

BOAC
1st Jan 2012, 12:20
The challenge in my day was in managing a '10' to airborne when in the middle of a satisfying bodily function with the immersion suit around your ankles. Yes, you lot, think what you will:p

BEagle
1st Jan 2012, 13:11
Yes, 'Q' in the VC10K was a lot more comfortable than in the F4! I recall being at home on 'Q' watching the same video I'd last seen when sitting around in a rubber bag in the Wattisham Q-shed at RS10. Plus we had the luxury of a galley and a bog - unlike the Victor mates. What did they do? Well, a certain Scottish Victor captain used the rations box for errr, an 'alternative purpose' on at least 2 occasions, earning himself the nickname of 'Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop'...:uhoh:!

(Apologies to those with tender post-New Year's Eve constitutions!)

Just This Once...
1st Jan 2012, 13:22
Early evening scramble whilst enjoying (well as best you could in a rubber suit) some sunshine outside the HAS. Already eating my second Magnum fresh from the freezer when the hooter went. For no fathomable reason my compatriot thrust his white chocolate Magnum at me whilst racing for the ac. Never to waste good food I force fed myself both ice creams as I charged up the steps.

The groundcrew did look at the creamy mess around my mouth with some suspicion but helped me strap in all the same. Checking in on telebrief went less well with a near frozen mouth. The response was on the other end was that they were prepared to wait if it meant that a sober crew could be found...

Ice cream to T/O in just shy of 5 mins.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 13:22
Correct, PN, the FG1 had no inertial nav, the FGR had an INAS (inertial nav attack system). There were numerous types of align available, two we used (Normal and Quick Action), the third was the one I think you mentioned, PN, which was the 5 minute align giving degraded accuracy due to a drift rate of 5NM/hour.

A normal align took about 12 minutes and was the most accurate at better than 3NM/hour. Clearly that was much too long for our scramble times. So for QRA we would use a quick action align which, basically went like this. When we put the jet on QRA we'd do a normal align and then store the heading, present position, etc, locking the platform (using the laps test button, strangely) so that it was effectively aligned.

External power kept the platform heaters on and maintained it at or above 35 degrees, with the INAS in standby. The aircraft could not be moved now. As the pilot started the first engine on external power the nav could start the QA align. Once the heading and present position were checked, navigator selected NAV and again used lamps test to freeze the platform. From there it took 85 seconds to be ready to go. Accuracy should have been the same as for a normal align.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 13:23
Tartare,

Two links to my description of QRA in your PMs.

Courtney

safetypee
1st Jan 2012, 14:04
IRRC the Lightning (Leuchars) experimented with RS 2 (mounted) from the ORP.
RS 5 (mounted) was usually from the Q shed, and allowed for taxying to the other runway (Ummm).
RS 10 was held from the crew room, but did not involve running unless your oxygen mask tangled in the front wheel of the ‘Q’ bike. We had a Landover after that!

There was also an odd RS for ‘real’ – Coltishall had detached to Binbrook during European tensions. This was similar to RS2/5 but spaced out around the airfield. Also, the T birds could stand one pilot down for ‘lunch’ etc, and have single pilot ops if required.

BEagle
1st Jan 2012, 14:09
The FG1 mates would frequently ask us for a position check if they had to leave the tanker and set off towards a Sov. unaccompanied. So, just for the hell of it, we'd often include a spoof second decimal in the decimal minutes value.....:\

Having completed my 500 hr pre-VC10K course on the F-4 :( , I held in Wattisham Ops for a couple of months whilst waiting for a slowing-down course on the woeful Jetstream. It was interesting to see QRA from a different perspective.....

....such as on the day we were quietly minding our own business discussing Page 3 girls (they were still pretty back then), beer and sports cars as you do when there was a sudden loud 'BURRRRRRRR' sound over the telebrief circuit. Which could have been a BMEWS alert....:eek: We immediately flashed Bluntishead to ask WTF - they too were equally perplexed. Just about then, there was a breathless call from Q1 and Q2 stating that they were at cockpit readiness requesting scramble details. This had now become somewhat interesting!! Another flash call to the Master Controller, to advise that Q1 and Q2 would be scrambling in 30 sec to a fallback CAP unless he could hold them. Fortunately the MC approved holding them at cockpit readiness, then after a tense couple of minutes ordered them to revert to RS10. The Ops phone just about jumped off the hook when the DFC rang from the Q-shed to demand an explanation; I told him we were investigating, but that the ADOC had been mightily impressed by the speed of their reaction!

The cause? It seems that some GPO numpty had carried out a line check somewhere in the system, without having been given the usual approval. So the line had still been 'live' -and when he inserted his test signal, off went the alarm...

It certainly brightened up an otherwise dull day!

ORAC
1st Jan 2012, 14:34
Beagle,

I had something similar during a graveyard shift in mid-winter at CRC Boulmer back in the 80s.

Middle of the night (approx 2am), sitting on the bridge in my overcoat (the AC was designed for a packed bunker to cool the computers, night shifts were arctic) - the RINGO went off with RINGO25 without the test lights around the outside.

By the book I should haves scrambled the Binbrook pair and initiated a sector call out. However, with the world being quiet, and the weather being Red, I called the DC at HQSTC and asked him to check for a fault. Turned out a new Sgt had been experimenting with the comms patch panel.

The way I saw it was that, if I was wrong, in 10-15 minutes, it wouldn't matter, and 2 x F6 wouldn't really have made a difference, even if they found an open airfield in Red conditions to turn around for the manned follow-up attack. If I was right, it would save a lot of embarrassment and a possible headline on the papers.

I never heard another word about it, so I presume the DC didn't write it up, or if he did someone decided to let sleeping dogs lie........

Pontius Navigator
1st Jan 2012, 15:40
ORAC that leads to an interesting conversation in the early 80s regarding mandatory launch. One presumes launch with no safe recovery option.

The TACO said no problem, if the CinC said launch then launch we should. The Captain however, using his captain's prerogative said he would refuse a direct order from the CinC should the CinC issue the order.

It would have been an intersting discussion had it happened. It was quite interesting at the time.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 15:49
Just to clarify for those not in the know, QRA has three states. NORMAL does exactly what it says on the tin. RESTRICTED meant there was an issue that could cause a risk to normal, safe operations. That could be weather, engineering or diversion problems. So being restricted meant that we would only get launched for an actual intruder - no practice scrambles or the like. MANDATORY meant that something was badly wrong - again, weather or a serious engineering issue - and it was acknowledged that launching QRA may mean the loss of the aircraft or crew.

Oh, and BEags, we especially loved the spoof position checks. How we used to laugh when we were out of range of any ground station or nav aids and realised that we had just fixed the kit with the wrong present position. Ah, those chaps in their cozy tanker. We loved it! :ok:

Take That
1st Jan 2012, 16:01
ORAC

RINGO - that brought back memories from 20+ years ago!

The FG1 was limited to a basic Air Position Indicator, limited to inserting 2 sets of coordinates to (Base and Target) and inserting a manual wind velocity to feed the mouse that spun the cogs and dials that made the computations. No align required, just had to remember to switch it on during the take-off roll. We used to fly with a met pack, and used that to update the wind for the area we were (or after a couple of hours, where we thought we were) at the height we were operating (which could vary throughout the sortie). Thus lots of potential for nav errors, and as BEagle has related it used to be common practice to get a position update from the tanker and perhaps more importantly a wind check to compare with the met pack (and that leads on to another story, but I'll let somebody else who was at Leuchars at the time relate that). Of course, we also had a TACAN, but often useless as were were normally out of range working in the 'Gap', but the best navaid was the radar. Its pulse mode was powerful (certainly compared to the F3's), and a quick point of the nose towards the Faroes or Shetlands coupled with a bit of back plotting was a more than acceptable way of updating one's position. Would be interesting to hear from a Fleet Air Arm FG1 Observer's perpsective because their airfield kept moving during the sortie!

Twin INs coupled with the 'God's Eye View' in the F3 seemed a luxury having been brought up on the FG1 and the mod to fit LINS/GPS speeded up the align time and led to further improvements to airborne accuracy. I understand the move to RS15 was not due to Tornado F3, but because of the overall wider political situation. I stand by to be corrected, but I certainly seem to remember RS10 when I transitioned to F3 QRA.

We did run if required (or the older types would shuffle rapidly), but if the MC was on the ball, we would be primed to meet a launch time which was always good for the hearbeats and allowed a rapid bit of personal admin before flying for as long as it took. The first time I was down south with a RAFG crew (F4 days) with a call to cockpit, it was obvious that they sprinted to the jet, even through the tunnel and into a headwind!

One day I hope somebody writes the book! I might be mad, but I actually enjoyed sitting QRA, especially with the right team.

ORAC
1st Jan 2012, 16:10
We did run if required (or the older types would shuffle rapidly), but if the MC was on the ball, we would be primed to meet a launch time Didn't need to work it out with the circular computer, the P-time was always 2H 15M....... ;)

NutLoose
1st Jan 2012, 16:28
Ahhh QRA Bruggen and the not so mighty Jag, duty cook who kept volunteering to do it due to wanting to become a professional Chef when he left the RAF, he used to practice on us.... Best food on the station...

Christmas and the "decoration budget" blown on films and erm other things... :D We made a tree out of rolled up newspapers as you did at primary school and stuck that up.....
Staish visits on Christmas Day, not impressed at our home made decorations and that we appeared to have not had our decoration budget and dispatches said ornaments from Officers Mess.... sgt in charge of QRA has to explain post Xmas why we had no decorations etc..... ooops

Watching my Squadron disbandment parade through the fence and finally standing down both us and the last of our Jags a couple of days later off QRA.

We NEVER launched for obvious reasons.

BEagle
1st Jan 2012, 16:39
Courtney, old horseman, one would NEVER pass an incorrect position! All I meant was we'd pass you DD:MM.mm values rather than DD:MM.m!

Spot W/V was also passed, as Take That has said. In degT, of course....

I certainly enjoyed sitting on tanker Q and taking some happy snaps of the opposition. I used to take a copy of the Sun calendar on such trips - there was a picture of the pneumatic Sam Fox against a black background which showed up very well when held against the DV window. The effect on the Sov.s was electrifying - little faces in rubber Ivan hats would appear at every window beckoning us for a look. Little does Sam Fox realise what part her parts played in Glasnost! Although a journo did promise me that he'd tell her.

We also taped 'Colorado ATIS' which was the Bear crews' chat frequency, then sent the tapes off to the spies. Years later one told me that one of the chats was far from operational and concerned the amorous activities of one of the pilots during their Cuba det.

Incidentally, I don't know whether some of the codewords mentioned on this thread are still current, so have used veiled speech instead.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 17:01
I know BEags, just fooling! The tanker fixes were lifesavers - so was the fuel!! The only thing we had to go on when flying to Ascension and then the Falklands in 82 was the Victors position - from DECCA, am I wrong? As Take That says, up in the Arctic Sea on Q we were out of range of pretty much everything so that was vital, especially in the FG1.

Here's the box of tricks. Feed the hamster, tell it exactly where you were and the wind, etc (I think I recall we could get it from the radar too) and it would invariably tell you which hemisphere you were in!

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/FG1-NCS.jpg

Fareastdriver
1st Jan 2012, 17:05
from DECCA,
No DECCA down there; probably OMEGA. Decca may have made the kit.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 17:08
Ah, thanks. Neither was a piece of I ever used (except second-hand). One was a record label, the other a watch. Whatever it was, it probably has a lot to do with me being here today!

NutherA2
1st Jan 2012, 17:16
I think I recall we could get it from the radar tooIIRC the expert in the rear seat explained that if the radar was in doppler mode & search, it would look down every couple of minutes or so & calculate a wind which was input to the nav computer. Main problem with the kit was, I think, that its errors increased dramatically at high latitudes; it seemed to work quite well in the Mediterranean, but was less than helpful at 70° N.

Courtney Mil
1st Jan 2012, 17:41
Nuther A2, you have it there, regardng radar wind. I do recall a warning in the manual along the lines of 'this very inaccurate and shouldn't be used for navigation'. Less accurate than just guessing the wind, I wonder? And what were we supposed to use it for?

D-State
1st Jan 2012, 17:43
QRA North 89/90 Lossiemouth, Shacks holding Q. The Mighty Tombs sharing the pan (bolthole from Leuchars). Hooter goes, Phantom GC bolt for the door, stop in their tracks and seem surprised when there's no movement from the Shackleton GC, hookers in one hand, jock pie in the other, "no rush on our part sonny, the crew will just be off to breakfast". Sure enough the Phantoms got airborne in minutes, landed just as the Magic Roundabout (engines already running courtesy of the GC) got airborne and found the Bear. RS Cooked Breakfast +1. Happy New Year All

FJJP
1st Jan 2012, 18:20
Then we had the dispersal ex on tin triangles where the reversion system was to change at midnight. True to form we got the RS05 followed sharpley by the RS02. Six of HM's finest were mounted up and taxyed to the end of the runway, at 2345 awakening all and sundry within five miles.

At 0001 the revert to RS15 was given using the old system...

Smart Alecs to the end, it was duly ignored. At 0030 the Staish had had enough of 24 mighty Olympii roaring away and demanded an end to this ex noise nonsense; the dispersal ops team promised they would do their best to convince the Bomber Controller. The conversation with the Bomber Controller was interesting to say the least, ending with him begging us to do a local reversion. It was pointed out to him that they belonged to him and that we were not empowered to revert the team on pain of death. I mean, can you just imagine the furore if the ops team reverted the congo line on their own?

He was begging for us to do it because he had screwed up and forgotten the new codewords. He would now have to call a V. Senior Superior old boy to open the safe to get the codes. Hey ho, life is such a bitch at times and then you....

At 0100 the correct revert was broadcast through clenched teeth, with the thought of a one-way coffee-free with the C-in-C in the morning, not to mention the whotsit coming off the fan courtesy the C-in-C the host command...

BEagle
1st Jan 2012, 18:54
Courtney, you old rascal - I should have remembered what a wind-up artist you could be!

You know, we could have offered the QRA interceptors a better service if we'd sat down at Leuchars and talked things through at some point. For example, we could have HF-phonepatched Leuchars Ops for base colour state, aids and recovery state and updated you with a pre-formatted message - plus present position relative to wherever you liked and the spot wind. But nobody thought of such things back then. However, after observing one tanker crew's poor effort to intercept a Bear, the Stn Cdr (not The Scottish Officer :oh: ) advised that we should work out some turn keys. So I did - using a BBC Master and a bit of R = TAS squared / g tan AoB. This led to the RV tables which are still in use in ATP-56B today, some 25+ years later!

Vulcan exercises could be amusing! Because I was at Bawtry for my 'captaincy board' (listening to staff officers discussing whether brown or white gloves were appropriate for some event or other before I went in to see The Man...:( ), our crew wasn't deployed on the Strike Force Dispersal exercise. But I heard a familiar roar-of-four in the distance as, on a normal training trip, they'd wired Finningley, our SFD aerodrome. A voice came on the R/T to advise them that 'Operation Muddy Waters' was in effect - which meant nothing to them....apart from assuming that they were in the deep and smelly!

Now, the person (a Flt Cdr - it had to be!) who'd made this transmission was the same person who'd forgotten to issue the amended HF frequencies for the 'go' message when the stream of Vulcans reached their exercise 'go' point. Hearing nothing, they all went into holding patterns whilst Midland Radar tried to sort out the ensuing chaos....

Having done OK at my captaincy board, I was feeling quite cheeful when I met the rest of the team back at Sunny Scampton. They told me the story, so I advised the captain to say that "Operation Muddy Waters" was an operational term used to alert crews when security has been breached and that under no circumstances should they go beyond the 'go' point. Which is precisely what, when asked, he innocently told the Flt Cdr who'd been responsible for the utter cock-up....:E

No wonder I never made it beyond Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr....:hmm:

Tiger_mate
1st Jan 2012, 19:51
Whilst all the QRA Gurus are in one place; I would be very grateful if you could cast an eye over an oil painting I have just finished for any errors, as it is not to late to make ammendments. My own 'expertise' is Rotary so I lack inside knowledge on these aircraft.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/LightningBAC.jpg
I consider opening/partially opening the Lightning airbrake suggesting a join or indeed suggesting reheat for a departure and either option remains viable. I do not know if the Victor had dirty or clean engines and so have not included any suggestion of exhaust and would value inside knowledge regarding that. The Victor references I used were late model and hopefully I have demodded certain add-ons to put it back in the early seventies but again errors are possible. Rather then thread drift; PMs would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

ORAC
1st Jan 2012, 19:55
or indeed suggesting reheat for a departureJoin below, depart above.......

NutLoose
1st Jan 2012, 20:15
Cool pic Tiger I paint too... When I get time, but not picked up the hairy sticks in ages, only on model figures... does the far belly strake look to deep? As the tank would mask a portion, and it looks about the same size as the nearest one if that makes sense, Bar that looks superb.

Not in your league, but an early acrylic of a "QRA" Phantom... :ok: behind glass and a snatched shot so sorry for the poor picture.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Aviation/climb.jpg

BOAC
1st Jan 2012, 20:58
Since we are into 'war stories', I was alongside Ivan in my aluminium death-tube early one morning up near 'the rock' and asked the tanker for my pigeons to KEF whereupon matey in the Bear blister held up a topo and pointed.:)

Then there was the Leuchars exercise when the stand-down was given to me with my tanker using the wrong authentication code. Tanker mates were good sports and obviously wanted to get rid of fuel, so 65 mins, 'direct orders from Staish' and three more incorrect authents later Buchan gave me my cat's name and I agreed to stop playing..:ok:

tartare
2nd Jan 2012, 00:05
Gentlemen - many thanks for taking the time to reply.
I was just a lad when much of this was going on.
Very interesting, and many questions answered.
Courtney - thank you espec. for the links etc.

howiehowie93
2nd Jan 2012, 12:00
When the F4 took over that slipped to RS15, mainly, IIRC, because of the time required to align the INAS platform.

I was a 111 Sqn Liney on Phantooms in the mid-eighties and when on Q the Ground Power was always plugged in & on to keep the INAS running. Sometimes a "leaky" jet was also hooked up to a set of nitrogen bottles too!

regards & happy 2012 to you !

Howie

Courtney Mil
2nd Jan 2012, 12:02
Howie,

The only toom that didn't leak was an empty one! :ok:

glad rag
2nd Jan 2012, 12:13
I was a 111 Sqn Liney on Phantooms in the mid-eighties and when on Q the Ground Power was always plugged in & on to keep the INAS running. Sometimes a "leaky" jet was also hooked up to a set of nitrogen bottles too!


It was "sporty" enough just like that, but if you had a GTS wet start/fire you just KNEW it wasn't your day having to pat the smouldering noddy caps out.

Crazy days indeed!!

Best wishes for 2012

GR.

safetypee
2nd Jan 2012, 13:08
Tiger Mate, an excellent study.
A comment from a pedant, I don’t recall that the gun ports were outlined in red etc (although some gate guardians may be). Indeed, in the early days of Mk 6 guns we used black duct-tape to simulate a guns fit when transiting certain Mid E countries.
Also, I don’t see a tail hook.

NutLoose
2nd Jan 2012, 15:08
Remember the 21 days a Jag would sit on Q then someone realised in that period a good layer of fuel vapour would settle close to the ground in the HAS and the Static inverters in the HAS's were not sealed or fireproof, so the possibility existed of the open electric motor setting the lot off... The typical RAF cure to fix the issue was to stick it on top of a 4 inch deep lump of timber to lift it out of the danger zone, as they had worked out the vapour layer wouldn't get that high, even though no one seemed to have thought that doing the morning checks would stir the vapour up...

Moi/
2nd Jan 2012, 15:47
Typhoon -

From alarm to taxi is pretty quick. :rolleyes:


The longest bit is the run out to the aircraft / taxi to runway.

Courtney Mil
2nd Jan 2012, 15:59
I would hope so. It was designed that way.

A2QFI
2nd Jan 2012, 16:06
When I flew F4s the INAS could be aligned is 105 seconds if it had been shut down in a "Stored Heading" mode which enabled a rapid align. Could be wrong - it WAS 38 years ago!

WolvoWill
2nd Jan 2012, 16:09
Interesting thread this :)

A quick question - with the Typhoon now giving the RAF a mix of single and twin seat fighters (which there hasn't been since...??), have they ever had a twin seater on Q?

Courtney Mil
2nd Jan 2012, 16:11
A2QFI, quick action align was the fastest and pretty much as good as a normal align. See post 13.

Walvo. It could sit Q, but it has less fuel.

Art Field
2nd Jan 2012, 16:19
Be interesting to see how many Bears individuals have caught over the years. As a Tanker man reckon 33 is not a bad total.

Courtney Mil
2nd Jan 2012, 16:32
33 is very good. I'd have to do a long search of log books to work it out, but I doubt I had that many.

What a wonderful night I recall with 4 x Bear F, us as the only fighter and 2 x tangos 'supporting us'. One tango set up an orbit while we went after one pair of Bears, and the other tango took the other pair. Top up to full and all swap round. One of the best nights I had. And the old F4 radar kept working all night.

A2QFI
2nd Jan 2012, 17:02
Thanks - I hadn't seen your earlier and very descriptive post on the subject!

Courtney Mil
2nd Jan 2012, 17:04
A2, I learnt it all from an A2QFI once! Or was it the Command IRE when I was doing my F4 IRE course? SOOOO much fun!

Mach Two
2nd Jan 2012, 17:37
Courtney,

Don't I recall you being rather unusual in that you were one of the very few to arrive at Leuchars from a tour of Southern Q with a 10 Bear badge? Did you have to keep nobbling Q1's jet to get all the action?

Tiger_mate
2nd Jan 2012, 17:51
Safetypee: Thanks for your comments. The 'donor' aircraft is the Akrotiri gate guard which I recently photographed specifically for that painting. The pitot has been nicked as has the refuel 'bulb' (end bit!). The hook may have been in shadow so I will check on that one and perhaps make it a little more prominent. There is always the chance that the Akrotiri cab hook has also been borrowed. FWIW You may notice I retained the serial of the Akrotiri aircraft which is depicted as 'E' when that aircraft served with 11 Sqn.

Moi/
2nd Jan 2012, 17:55
Tiger,

No hook/probe/pitot as i recall. Seen plenty of drunks trying to climb on it from my APC days.

Lima Juliet
2nd Jan 2012, 18:00
It all got a bit busy again since 2007, I was up one day watching an eight ship ladder of Bears that made the Telegraph. I seem to recall their being a Blackjack or 2 around that day - my logbook says so.

Tornados scrambled to intercept Russian jets - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562341/Tornados-scrambled-to-intercept-Russian-jets.html)

The picture of the Typhoon in the article has an amusing story behind it. To get a picture of a QRA Typhoon on it they scrambled them from Southern QRA and then hauled off the F3s that had been shadowing it for some time. They got the picture and then the Typhoons went home; the F3s then continued shadowing for a few more hours after they went home.

Anyway, there was a resurgence of Bear and Blackjack badges at Leuchars after that day!

LJ

Canadian Break
2nd Jan 2012, 18:14
Courtney - I'm sure what you meant to write was that the TANGO took the other pair AFTER it had first been intercepted by your good self - thus enabling you to go after the second pair!:ok: CB

bobward
2nd Jan 2012, 19:04
Tiger Mate,
A superb painting!

Please excuse a small comment from a spotter - wouldn't the Victor have had red/white/blue national markings, rather than the 'tactical' red/blue?

Apologies for nit-picking....

Geehovah
2nd Jan 2012, 19:11
When I flew F4s the INAS could be aligned is 105 seconds if it had been shut down in a "Stored Heading" mode which enabled a rapid align. Could be wrong - it WAS 38 years ago A set heading align (Set Hdg)was 90 seconds. In RAFG it was quite important because on RS05 the INAS was the critical delay. The record still goes to a 92 Sqn crew who made 3 minutes from fast asleep to airborne after a TACEVAL scramble at night.

Not bad after 38 years though!!!:ok:

Tiger_mate
2nd Jan 2012, 19:13
Bobward:

That is exactly what I wanted; however the only photograph I have of a K2 in those colours is the prototype on company (BAe-Hawker Siddeley) trials flights. Therefore unsure as to whether squadron operators (OCU in this case) ever married up a bare metal Lightning with a red/wht/blu roundelled K2. I have a photo of this pair in these colours and therefore built the composition around a known formation.

Geehovah
2nd Jan 2012, 19:16
A superb painting!

Please excuse a small comment from a spotter - wouldn't the Victor have had red/white/blue national markings, rather than the 'tactical' red/blue?

Apologies for nit-picking....

No the Victors had "tone down" National markings by the mid 70s

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Victor_F4s.jpg

Tiger_mate
2nd Jan 2012, 19:31
A nice photo that would have been most usefull of late. A few further questions for the Air Defenders if I may: I would like to paint a similar painting that includes either AEW Shackleton or Canberra T17 along with a fighter that will probably be F4.

Are there any circumstances when these aircraft would have joined up at altitude or were they autonomous operators?

Is 'Chaff' visible at height?

Did the T17 execute any dynamic manouvres when playing?

If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get?

How often does such a scenario be it practice or real involve IMC flight?

air pig
2nd Jan 2012, 19:43
Is it rumoured that Concorde was used as a high speed intercept target on returning from all points east, also Q aircraft did not get near it.

Regards.

Air pig.

Green Flash
2nd Jan 2012, 19:49
I'm sure I read somewhere that when Concorde was doing supersonic test runs on the North Sea racetrack that it was offered to NATO as a high speed target, confined to simple stern conversions. And I think that only the Lightning got anywhere near it. I have no doubt that someone will be along forthwith with the gun camera photo's!

Pontius Navigator
2nd Jan 2012, 19:56
During the "Konfrontasi" in the Far East, it was impractical to hold CR on Javelin QRA for protracted periods, on account of high temperatures. FEAF decided that Readiness 10 was too long a reaction time, so there was a kind of Dutch auction, resulting an a crew-room state of Alert 7. It was unusual to take longer than 5 minutes to get airborne, though, whether the crew was awake or sleeping when the scramble was ordered.

Similarly it was deemed impracticable for the Victors and then the Vulcans to hold RS15/RS05 and the order was RS20/RS10. In practice, as Nuther says, it was possible to get airborne in a shorter time. As in UK we could get from PJs in the mess to cockpit readiness in about 5-7 minutes there was no reason why we could not have got to RS05 from RS15 in the Far East. To get to RS10 however dictated RS20. RS10 differed from RS05 or cockpit readiness in that it meant crew relaxing in the 'cool' outside the aircraft or possibly with the door open and thus not technically at CR.

As we didn't have telebrief one crew member would have been onboard monitoring the RT.

Pontius Navigator
2nd Jan 2012, 20:03
I am not sure if Concorde was ever embellished but I do know that the MOD hired it, or used it, when it was doing high speed runs in the North Sea. I don't know if it was also offered to NATO (not heard that) but it was certainly hacked at by every Lightning station. I don't know the results.

Green Flash
2nd Jan 2012, 20:09
PN, thanks. When i say offered I meant that the MOD was aware of the times and routes that Conc was running and as long as no one got in the way or rammed it then they were free to have a go. Happy to be updated by those with first hand knowledge.

Lima Juliet
2nd Jan 2012, 20:33
Re: Concorde

October, 2004
LIGHTNING vs CONCORDE

The Lightning that once overtook Concorde was described as 'the best of the best' by Flt Lt Mike Hale at the roll-out ceremony for XR749 at Teeside Airport on September 28th 1995. Now an instructor with 56 Sqn at Coningsby, Mike flew 80 sorties in XR749 after the aircraft was allocated to 11 Squadron at Binbrook. He has a particular affection for the aircraft: "The Lightning was an exceptional aircraft in every respect, but XR749 was one of the best of the best. It is probably the best aircraft that I will ever have had the privilege to fly. Because of her tail code BM, she was known as 'Big Mother', although the tail code changed to BO for her last few months on 11 before joining the LTF in January 1985. She was a very hot ship, even for a Lightning. She remained my aircraft for all her time on 11 Sqn despite my being entitled to an F6 as I moved up the squadron pecking order. I invariably asked for her to be allocated to me for the major exercises such as MALLET BLOW, OSEX, and ELDER FOREST despite her being a short range F3 - there were invariably plenty of tankers about!"

His memories include the time in April 1984, during a squadron exchange at Binbrook, when he and XR749 participated in unofficial time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. The Lightnings won all races easily, with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a dead-heat. This is not surprising when the records show that the year before on one sortie XR749 accelerated to Mach 2.3 (1500 mph) in September 1983.

It was also in 1984, during a major NATO exercise that he intercepted an American U-2 at 66,000 ft, a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Shortly before this intercept, he flew a zoom climb to 88,000 ft and, later that year, he was able to sustain FL550 while flying subsonic. Life was not entirely without problems, however, as in a three month period his No 2 engine seized in flight and its replacement failed during a take-off when intake panelling on the inside of the aircraft became detached and was sucked into the engine.

In April 1985, British Airways were trialling a Concorde up and down the North Sea. When they offered it as a target to NATO fighters, Mike and his team spent the night before in the hangar polishing XR749 which he borrowed from the LTF for the occasion, and the next day overhauled Concorde at 57,000 ft and travelling at Mach 2.2 by flying a stern conversion intercept. "Everyone had a bash - F-15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirages, F-104s - but only the Lightning managed to overhaul Concorde from behind".

In October 1985, XR749 represented the LTF on the tenth anniversary of that unit's formation. It was given a new colour scheme - light grey underside, dark grey upperside, with the spine and tail fin dark blue. It was the only Lightning to be so coloured, and then only for two months, but that is now its permanent livery at Teeside Airport.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk25/Slip21/Starfighters/F3XR749BM11SqBin090484.jpg

I know Mike "SIDITIO" Hale (SIDITIO - Seen It Done It Ticked It Off or plain "Sid") well and he explained that he hired a floor polisher to polish his Lightning all over prior to the attempt. Knowing Sid and how he might have embellished the story about polishing, I asked his wife in the Mess one night if it was true. She replied that it was and that she had also helped out!

"Sid" Hale has just been granted a MBE in the New Years' Honours List for his varied contributions to aviation over the years - AD, Trg and Gliders plus running the Low Flying Cell. :D

He must be one of the last Lightning Jockeys in the RAF - the only other I know of is on secondment in Oman.

LJ

ORAC
2nd Jan 2012, 20:45
I'm sure I read somewhere that when Concorde was doing supersonic test runs on the North Sea racetrack that it was offered to NATO as a high speed target, confined to simple stern conversions. And I think that only the Lightning got anywhere near it. I have no doubt that someone will be along forthwith with the gun camera photo's! it did a figure of 8 around the North Sea, speed M2, average height FL560 to maintain constant speed.

There were set points and times which the Sqns used to drop and tankers and accelerate and climb to acquire at the pre-planned points. All tick in the box tuff, to put money in the pocket of BA before the charter market picked up.

Only remarkable point was the Binbrook Lightning with a radio failure which went to it's preset point (and ignoring the MRSA), not only acquired but did a stern intercept which, IIRC, was confirmed on the film.....

camlobe
2nd Jan 2012, 20:51
D-State's post #29 brought back many memories. Ah, yes, that Northern Q.

The Mighty Eight's GC crewroom overflowing with linies, most of them visitors. Hooter goes with the usual '8 Sqn QRA Scramble, 8 Sqn Q...' etc, etc. Q was a regular event in those days and everyone involved had the 'Q twitch', raring to go at the first keying of the tannoy.

But on this day...the Senior Squadron had to ensure the Junior knew its place.

Four of the Senior Squadron members bidding their Bridge hands. Q scramble on the tannoy. Senior Squadron guys ever so calmly carry on. Junior visitors stare on agog and baffled. Chief shift boss stroles through and asks the Bridge party if they could do the see-off. 'No probs', bidding finished, a couple of finesses, and made. Stand up and slooowwly make way to the aircraft, cooooly get everything up and running, crew arive, start and depart. Back to Bridge and carry on smoothly. Great when a plan comes together.

The poor F4 guys just couldn't put it together. Well, they wern't to know that our average 'call-to-off' was circa 15 minutes ish, most of the delay being the TACO getting his brief.

Just awfully glad we only bid three Hearts and not 6 Spades...we would have had to run. That would have spoiled the moment.

camlobe

Green Flash
2nd Jan 2012, 20:52
Leon, ORAC - Gents, thank you.:ok:

Canadian Break
2nd Jan 2012, 22:12
Saturn profile anyone?

NutLoose
3rd Jan 2012, 00:19
Sadly Binbrooks aprons have just succumbed to being Recycled.


End of the line for Binbrooks Flight Line - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=113793)

safetypee
3rd Jan 2012, 00:58
Saturn profile? As I recall this was max power acceleration and climbing turn from low level to 25K plus then further acceleration for a subsonic high flyer up to 48K.
A Concorde intercept would be more likely a front quarter Red Top attack at M1.5, thus the setup could be quite difficult with a closure rate of M3.5 ?? Then there was Coriolis !!!

AFAIR Red Top was not released for QRA use for some time after the squadrons were re-equipped; any reason why – excluding missile fin problems.

trap one
3rd Jan 2012, 06:34
Tiger_Mate, as a former AD WC my answers to you questions

A nice photo that would have been most usefull of late. A few further questions for the Air Defenders if I may: I would like to paint a similar painting that includes either AEW Shackleton or Canberra T17 along with a fighter that will probably be F4.

Are there any circumstances when these aircraft would have joined up at altitude or were they autonomous operators?
Canberra all altitudes and weather day and night. Shack mostly affil sorties at L/L again day/night and all weather, but was intercepted (at M/L for a Shack) when they were RTB in Transit.

Is 'Chaff' visible at height?

Did the T17 execute any dynamic manouvres when playing?

Oh yes when part of Ex or in brief or feeling their oats. But most QRA embelish PI's were usually straight and level. Most memerable was a visual spot of Canberra going to N of Peterhead power Station stack and F4 going S of it both at high angles of bank.


If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get?

In old days if Civy pilot and controller were happy, Interceptor was allowed to a 200ft bubble officially. Not sure these days as I've been out for over 6 years.


How often does such a scenario be it practice or real involve IMC flight?

With the weather in the UK, IMC intercepts were practiced all the time. Certainly remember having to hunt for targets/victims during bad weather. System used to be that you could intercept any VFR with military modes and codes. Bad weather usually sent us to the Civy/Mil ATC units, asking if their high or medium level traffic was willing to be embelished. If an actual QRA, most would start above the weather and then sometimes start down dependant on events.

Regards
Trap One

ORAC
3rd Jan 2012, 07:21
If civilian airliners were used for PI; how close to the airliners would a fighter get? Rules have obviously changed trap one, in my time civilian aircraft were a prohibited intercept.

Not saying it was never done, BA Xmas flights for orphans getting intercepted is one type we used to get asked to intercept (Merry Xmas kids and see the F4 on our port wing!); Air Anglia used to get offended if they weren't intercepted. And if QRA was loitering with Saxa with Bear F's playing north of the ADR, then they'd "intercept with caution", the transatlantic traffic for practice and to fill the hours.

But all prohibited by the book.

The one time the sh*t hit the fan was when Q1 jocularily claimed a Korean Airlines 747 on his report after one such Q trip. The reports going not only to HQSTC but also SACEUR. Unfortunately it was only a few months after the Russians had shot down a Korean Airlines 747.

Several days of sitting making transcripts of radio tapes, radar tracings and report writing later it didn't seem so funny to anyone else involved........

Pontius Navigator
3rd Jan 2012, 08:23
Trap One,

There were many occasions where the Shack and the F4 worked together. The old saw plan as an 8, walk as a 4, taxi as a pair . . . applied to the F4 as much as the Tonka.

We frequently acted as both target and controller for a single F4. Quite easy to control as we knew where the target was and only had to find the interceptor :) That was easy too as long as he squawked.

But for a painting would you care to try your hand an a night painting?

One night, no moon, viz pretty dark, suspect oil leak on No 2. Any visual traces would have been on the outboard side of the cowling.

Ask F4 if he carried a torch. He did. Could he have a look? He would.

What we had assumed was that the might F4 would carry a mega Q-type search light. What he didn't tell us was it was the Navs tiny pocket torch with a range of less than 3 feet with a red filter.

Anyway Biggles slows down and eases in, he is flying nose high with the radome between No 1 and 2 and probably only inches behind the props.

I am sure with artistic licence you could provide enough illumination with anti-colls etc.

tartare
3rd Jan 2012, 08:47
Courtney - check your pm's.

Four Types
3rd Jan 2012, 09:45
QRA tales. Walking to the HAS (or housey) in the FI every 6 hours or so to keep the INs company and warm them up...Pilots never volunteered for this one!

Being sat on a camp bed in VAS at Honington having just woken up. Pilot tells me he has spoken to those on high and all is quiet...as he reached the letter 't' the hooter went! Airborne in the required time but without my morning pee!....amazing how much an 'Aircrew Bag Relief' can hold. Then flew for several hours...overhead Lossie we went, then back again as we RTB to Honington, land, only to turn the jet and fly back to Lossie for the 8: 8 : 88. Hence we made a late arrival at happy hour!

Flying QRA in the gap to be told high speed contact closing from the West. Much consternation!...beak to beak we go, pick it up on the bogle scope and yes he is fast, very fast! At TESS range the pilot centres the black dot, I make out a fighter type, and we end up with us doing a 'Top Gun' style canopy to canopy pass with a fully armed F14 off a far distant USN carrier! Interesting.

The only time I ever did a Phase Three Visual ID for 'real' was when we were sent off on a 'jolly' mission to escort 2 Bears inbound to Fairford Airshow. What started off as a jolly jape ended up with us sat off the wing formating on the flashing red light to be followed by a breakaway manoeuvre and a re-attack! The pilot in the other F4 (I cannot tell you that it was the Sqn Boss for obvious reasons) had an airmiss filed against him!!...no worries though he made Air Rank!.

I always like to relate the tale told to me of the young thrusting first tourist pilot who, on first QRA at night, tells the hairy old Nav that he is going to have some fun with the Bear and proceeds to turn his lights off. Feeling smug for a few seconds until the Bear does likewise! Young pilot yelps and the Nav quietly tells him 'Stop being a Numpty and put your bl**dy lights back on' to which he did and then...so did the Bear.

Finally, in one liners one Friday afternoon at 1/4 past five and QWI Leader states that the Squadron "Should be doing more 'Lights Out' Practice Intercepts" At which point a gruff voice from a hairy old Spec Aircrew Pilot in the back replies "Lets see if we can get it right with the 'Lights On' first!!"

Happy Days! : o )

engtechp
3rd Jan 2012, 09:54
One dark wet night the 'hooter went for an exercise with the mighty Phantom F4's. With about six A/C fully fuelled and armed with thier engines running 'Oscar' decided to fire a 'Sidewinder' at the groundcrew and just missed. The aircraft was impounded for further invest, six months later it was given back to us with no reason found for it's transgression. I was in charge of the groundcrew and we were taking over 'Q' for the next seven days. We had 'Oscar' on the arming point with the crew doing an acceptance check, it was fully fuelled and armed with all the pins removed, sound familiar. The pilot then asked me to put the tractor on the front and push 'Oscar' back into the Q Shed whith the engines running to keep the INAS aligned, I said that I would just put the Rocket Motor Pins in whilst I did the Push Back. He told me not to as he would have to come off 'State' if I did. I told him about the history of 'Oscar' and I was not willing to endanger me or my men. He then threatened me with 20 years inside for disobeying an order, I just said that it would be prefreable to being dead. He said that he was going to sort me out and sent for the Wing Co. He came out and I explained what had occured, he spoke to the pilot over the head-set and then asked me if I was happy to push back with the rocket pins in; I agreed and pushed the a/c back into the sheds and then removed the pins.
The pilot was supposed to spend the next 24 hours on 'Q' but as soon as 'Oscar' was put to bed he was replaced and I never had the pleasure of his company on 'Q'.
The good old days :ugh:

Pontius Navigator
3rd Jan 2012, 10:27
Four types, your F14 story reminds me we had something like that too. I think it was in the Shack days. F4 well west of Benbec so we had it and the fast movers mixing it.

Green Flash
3rd Jan 2012, 16:58
Excellent thread folks :) I wonder what was the strangest thing that was intercepted by Q?

APG63
3rd Jan 2012, 17:38
Green Flash,

It was on a very dark, winter's night in 1987. We were scrambled at about 3 a.m. from cold (fast asleep). Q1 went u/s on start with radar problems so my nav and I got airborne as Q2. Unusualy, we we vectored northeast - it was more usual to be sent up to the 'Gap'. Anyway, we imagined we were probably after something from Iceland - The Sloe Gins, as they were known.

We were held on CAP for about an hour after the contact faded from Saxa. We were told that a a tanker was on its way and we were to endure as Q1 was off state. We filled to full at least three times and we were starting to see the first glimpse of dawn when we were vectored north with some urgency.

To cut a long story shortish, we had a very difficult intercept against an intermittent contact which, frankly was all over the place. Eventually we closed to VID the target only to find a large dish-shaped craft surrounded by green light.

None of our photographs came out and we were told never to tell the story.

trap one
3rd Jan 2012, 18:02
ORAC.
My appologies mean't the 200ft bubble for Military traffic either under Civil or Military Control. The Civy jets were not intercepted as you said but were co-ordinated with the 1000ft or 2000ft separation. Real intercepts on civies were not un-common post 911. Also the rules got relaxed slightly so that you could intercept Civy AC that were under contract to the MOD, such as FRA etc.

Lima Juliet
3rd Jan 2012, 22:27
Strangest thing? Sssshhh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0slNhG29CV4

Four Types
7th Jan 2012, 16:12
Way back when I was on a F4s an old Lightning pilot once recalled how he had been launched on QRA in 8/8ths clag sea level to God.....He picked up the contact, stern conversion and closed in for a Phase 3 VID from above. As he approached min range he could eventually make out a Delta winged aircraft, a little bigger than his own with NO COCKPIT!!.....he could see enough to close even further. After a period of bafflement the cloud eventually cleared enough for him to see that he had actually done a VID on the High-T tail of a VC10!!!!....One to tell the grandchildren!!

Courtney Mil
7th Jan 2012, 16:41
I like that, FT. Presumably the rest of the VC10 was there too? ;)

Pontius Navigator
7th Jan 2012, 16:54
CM, our nav course commander related a tale from a VID in the 50s. He talked Biggles in on the radar and eventually got in to a couple of hundred feet. Biggles then told him to look out to the right. There was a nav light well distant and nowhere near where he said the target was.

Biggles then said look left, there was another nav light equidistant the other side. Confused . . .

Now look up he said.

They were tucked in very close to a B36.

PS, I think the tail was behind the meatbox cockpit.

Courtney Mil
7th Jan 2012, 17:06
Nice one, PN. That was one HUGE aircraft. I hate to think where the back end was relative to the interceptor.

OK, strangest thing ever intercepted. Well this isn't, but it was certainly a surprise to us. My nav and I on QRA, early 80s, F4. Way, way north, talking to Saxa (I think) at night (as bloody usual). We closed on a Bear F (it had already been identified my the Noggies, but wanted our go too).

During the VID, we had one or two unusual range glitches, so stabilized, broke lock, relocked and pressed on in. Way beyond mininmum range we hit a load of buffet and, to cut a long story short, stabilized again. Radar lock started to show well inside min range, break X, etc. In the gloom I could just make out the shape of an aircraft. After a minute or so we identified one Comet derivative.

We were stalking the stalker, not the Bear. That could have been very nasty.

Pontius Navigator
7th Jan 2012, 17:29
CM,

You again remind me.

One clear day in the Shack we were up in the Gap doing not a lot. It had been busy the day before but it did take us a long time to get there. There was a singleton X-ray but a long long way south for a Coot. Anyway we were given the F4 to do a VID.

The intercept went well but before the F4 could close he called bingo and rtb. *&^%

We got permission from Buchan for him to go to Kef. It was outside his single engine range. We got him permission to go to Oerland. Ditto. Kinloss. Ditto. Eventually, frustrated, we let him go thinking all sorts of things.

Later, hours later, we were coasting in on the north coast when this chap calls Scottish for the ISK weather. The weather is duly passed and a frequency change for ISK Approach is passed. "Why would I want ISK approach? I am continuing south."

Yup, same as your story. Why did they never come up with a warning system?

Courtney Mil
7th Jan 2012, 17:42
Couldn't agree more, my friend. We could have killed each other (I mean fighter crew and airliner crew) and could easily have compromised them. Too much secret squirrel can be bad for the health. I wonder whose side they though you and I were on?