How Corporations Create False Paper Trails To Cover Up (Marshall vs. Cathay Pacific Management) | SebastianMarshall.com: Strategy, Philosophy, Self-Discipline, Science. Victory. (http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/how-corporations-create-false-paper-trails-to-cover-up-marshall-vs-cathay-pacific-management)

Although he seems a little eccentric in his video he does have a valid argument.

It's worth reading the links on his site that sum up the confrontation with the cabin crew. Usual CX Muppet factor and booking stuff up.

Lucky for him he recorded the entire argument before they threw him off the plane and sent him to the police station!

Here's the first of the series:

FIGHT CORPORATE VIOLENCE: Marshall vs. Cathay Pacific Management | SebastianMarshall.com: Strategy, Philosophy, Self-Discipline, Science. Victory. (http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/fight-corporate-violence-marshall-vs-cathay-pacific-management)

He hits the nail on the head.

The hairy avenger of truth justice and the american way.
I am american, I can position myself in business class
if I choose and you cannot touch me,I am american.
I will pay you later for the upgrade,trust me, i am
american.
Get a haircut,get a job, go home and collect the food
stamps you will be needing to survive, and stay out
of business class if you can't pay upfront.Try the
same rubbish in america, the cops will eventually
remove you there too. Sue the world, your entitled.

boofta

I couldn’t agree more. This f*****g feral is what is wrong with this world today. I personally feel sorry for the ground staff who has to put up with this type of BS. I had the pleasure a few months ago frog marching some guy who claimed to be a Saudi prince back down to economy where he was suppose to be seated. Stupid fool plonked himself down in 1K out o HK, right next to the crew rest seat and refused to move when the cabin crew asked him to move. Only problem for him was I wasn’t so diplomatic.

Good on ya 404,

The art of telling some of these imbeciles a few home truths seems to be disappearing in this politically correct world we live in.

:rolleyes:

He appears at first glance, to be a first class tugger.

Hi guys,

I'm Sebastian Marshall, I'm the guy that got violently dragged off the airplane.

Thanks for discussing me here.

A few points -

*They screwed up multiple times in the day.
*I asked to speak to a manager while the flight was still boarding.
*He threatened me when I told them they made mistakes.
*I asked him to put that in writing or on audio.
*He then called the police instead of addressing me.

The pilot came out and spoke with me, he was kind of amused by the whole situation. I said, "Hi pilot, sorry about this, Asia is kind of ****** up huh? This guy just threatens me when I ask him to put his bad decision in writing, and then calls the police instead of talking to me."

He was amused, we chatted in a friendly way, and so on.

Mind you, I got violently dragged off a plane, and no charges were brought against me. That should tell you something...

Also, please note that Cathay management fired the 49 pilots that enforced safety standards at Cathay (the "49ers case", you can see it on Wikipedia), and perjured themselves in that case.

Maybe I could have handled this more elegantly, but you should know where I'm at - I worked for 30 days straight, between 6 and 22 hours per day every day. I was brought in to build an educational services company in Beijing, I was putting together marketing events between a top jeweler and a top hotel chain, I put together a team to put out a book in one week (Ikigai, it's gotten great reviews, all of my share of profits goes to charity, check it out - people are saying it's life-changing), and I'm trying to build an orphanage in Ulaanbaatar. (I hired an architect, and will try to meet the Mongolian Ambassador to the PRC when I get back to China.)

So I'm quite busy. Then I get to PEK and Cathay screws up my booking and no one wants to fix it. I pay more money to upgrade again, they screw up again, and then some power-tripping loser threatens violence on me for saying his company made a mistake? I said, "Put it in writing, or on recorded audio, and I'll do what you want." He called the police instead.

...and here we are. I'll stand up for pilots, for cabin crew, for passengers, and for the police. Maybe I come across a little abrasive - I understand that, if I do - but it's because I'm moving fast and trying to change the world.

Thank you for discussing this, and best wishes,

Sebastian Marshall

What a proper little Tosser, create a scene, get a few names off tags, quote a few Lawyers (like they wont tell you what you want to hear), go on the Internet and blaze your crap out.

Mr, Marshall, rather than fouling the internet to amuse your ego, buy a Taser, attach electrodes to testicles and hit the ON button. This therapy may awaken you to who and what you are, saving countless individuals worldwide from future imbecilic acts.

> Mr, Marshall, rather than fouling the internet to amuse your ego, buy a Taser, attach electrodes to testicles and hit the ON button. This therapy may awaken you to who and what you are, saving countless individuals worldwide from future imbecilic acts.

So, you wrote that before my moderated post went live.

Here's the score - they screwed up, the manager wouldn't listen to that and threatened me, I told him to write it down, and then he called the police.

There were two choices - back down and submit to a power-crazy vioent jerk, or... what would up happening.

Maybe 99% of people who get taken off airplanes deserve it and are in the wrong. But if you don't think there's any managers who abuse their authority, threaten people, and cover it up afterwards...

I've got immense respect for pilots, air crew, ground staff, everyone. I'm pretty good to people. But you can't take a paying customer that you've made errors with, threaten him with violence for questioning you, and then call the police when he asks you to write your absurdly bad decision down (it was still boarding at that time by the way, there was plenty of time. He was just on a power trip.)

I got it on audio, by the way. Released the first transcription made now:
CATHAY MANAGEMENT ABUSE: Transcripted Discussion With Police | SebastianMarshall.com: Strategy, Philosophy, Self-Discipline, Science. Victory. (http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/cathay-management-abuse-transcripted-discussion-with-police)

There's a few things I can't understand.

1. If you did pay extra cash in PEK, then you should have a receipt, or a credit card statement as proof of payment. If you do have such a receipt, it should be an open & shut case against the airline. I assume you produced said receipt to the HKP at the time of arrest. So, why the big carry on?

2. What in the world possessed you to put "Citizen of the United States of America" at the end of your blog? No one cares where you're from. If you've been dealt with unfairly, then you deserve justice, whomever you may be, and wherever you're from.

3. This is a forum about Hong Kong aviation, mainly frequented by pilots (many of whom are employed by the said airline that you are in dispute with), yet you seem to be almost patting yourself on the back for informing us about the 49ers, a subject that is VERY familiar to all of our hearts:

please note that Cathay management fired the 49 pilots that enforced safety standards at Cathay

If you want to know the truth about the 49rs Mr Marshall, I suggest that you do what most of us (including myself) did, and buy the book "The 49ers, The True Story". It's available on Amazon & in bookstores in Hong Kong, and I believe an e-version is available for kindle. Not only will you learn the facts behind the story, but as you have stated your charitable credentials (which I actually respect and am not belittling), you'll be pleased to learn that the profits from your purchase will go to some of the actual 49ers.

4. As I said, this forum is full of pilots employed by the said airline which you are in dispute with, and to be honest, about 98% of those here totally DETEST the management team, and the way that they treat us, and our co-workers. Most of us have been, and will continue to be, subjected to the inflated ego of some insignificant low-level manager who try to throw their weight around "because they can". YET, despite our strong opinions on this matter, you have received a grand total of zero sympathy from us.

Good day to you Sir.

Having been unfortunate enough to travel on CX over 4 years with some of the rudest, most incompetent and ugly cabin crew, likewise for ground staff ( about 50% of both ), I say good on you Marshall :ok:

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know anything about this forum, except that coonabarabran posted the thread, Hedo Rick said I seem eccentric but have a valid argument, and then some guys here called me a prick and such.

> Most of us have been, and will continue to be, subjected to the inflated ego of some insignificant low-level manager who try to throw their weight around "because they can". YET, despite our strong opinions on this matter, you have received a grand total of zero sympathy from us.

I think almost everyone has had a situation where they were badly mistreated and just "took it" in order to "be reasonable and keep things moving."

99% of the time, you know what happens after that?

Nothing.

I'm trying to change things. This jerk manager at Cathay screwed a lot of people's lives, and does so frequently. Standing up to him makes a wave right now, and hopefully clears the future up for a better world.

I don't like being put in harm's way and having my entire vacation screwed up (I'm still in HK, never got to Taipei).

But to me, it's a relatively small price to pay to not let coercive, abusive people keep muscling their way through the world. The dude threatens me when I tell him (politely) that he made a mistake, and calls the police when I ask him to put his threat in writing (and said I'd comply if he did).

I'm pro-pilot. Maybe I fit the model of a guy who is an asshole, or whatever. Maybe I am an asshole, I don't know. But hey - say my facts check out. You can believe me or not, but let's say they did make multiple mistakes, the guy threatens me without listening to me, and calls the police when I ask him to make a permanent record of his decision.

Would that be wrong? Should we strive to change that?

Eccentric in a good way :ok:

Ever since 911 there has been a line drawn in the sand where by you're not even allowed to complain or have any confrontation with cabin crew OR you will be deemed a security threat.

I've been on CX with a 3month old and we were having a hard time, little man was upset and we needed some milk heated up pronto and we were treated like sh$t absolute sh$t. The Mongkok Muppets told us to bad we will have to wait until they finish the meal service.

My wife and I were furious and rightly so - but if I had made a scene I would have been deemed a security threat of some sort.

A few questions that require a very simple answer.

Did you have a business class boarding card?

Did you have a receipt showing you had just paid for an upgrade but received an economy class boarding card instead?

If you had neither of the above you should not have sat in business class regardless of how badly you thought CX had been treating you recently. It does not matter if you think you deserve to sit there due to the hard time you had been having. If you demanded it in writing that you move back to economy without holding a business class boarding pass (could understand if you did have the boarding pass about wanting it in writing), I would throw you off the plane. You may think you are blazing a way for public rights and sticking it to da man but sorry to burst your bubble, this shit happens a lot. Usually the person will say "fair enough" and move back to the seat he paid for. If they refuse unless it is in writing or on audio (without a boarding pass) I would be glad that the police were called and got you pulled off the plane. A delay can be very costly and frustrating and dealing with :mad: is easier off the plane than on it.

Once on an aircraft it is not the time to argue for an upgrade, do it at the check in desk.

If you did hold a business class boarding pass or receipt showing the upgrade then I hope you win. If not, give it a rest. Save your money, you will not get anywhere with this and will end up looking like a :mad:.

Did you have a business boarding pass or receipt showing the upgrade?

Your blog stinks of something I hate, mainly hailing from the awesome United States of America and that is trying to make something out of nothing so as to get maximum compensation. Please explain how other passengers were put at risk by the actions of this manager? You say it on numerous occasions but never elaborate. How were they put at risk?

The whole day was whacky. I wound up with two economy tickets, a paper receipt that said "First Class" on it, and seated in business on my first flight.

I went to the business class lounge to clear this up between flights. I was about to ask they change the paper, but they scanned my economy-class ticket, it beeped, and said, "Oh, you're cleared for the first class lounge" and they asked a staff member to walk me there. Then I figured things were okay, they'd already been sloppy and made mistakes a bunch.

Mind you, there were mistakes even before that, before I paid additional money... then more mistakes... then I asked politely for the manager, and then he basically instantly threatens me (and boarding wasn't over yet, so no one was being delayed).

You can't just take those threats - I said, write it down or record it, and I'll do exactly what you want. Would've taken 15 seconds and then he'd have gotten his way.

Me? I think he knows he screwed up and didn't want a record of it.

When a really unhappy customer says there's multiple mistakes, he's holding a receipt that says First Class and says there was an error and he was seated in business, and another error, and... y'know?

Threatening someone who says your airline's already made multiple mistakes that day, holding two economy tickets, and a first class upgrade receipt on paper, who said he was seated in business on the first flight, and said the business class lounge said he's in first...

Y'know? Whacky day. And then this power-tripping manager threatens me right away. He doesn't say get off the plane and talk about it (I would have said yes), he doesn't put his decision in writing or say it again once the recorder is on (I would have complied), he just... instantly calls the police. And here we are.

> "Your blog stinks of something I hate, mainly hailing from the awesome United States of America and that is trying to make something out of nothing so as to get maximum compensation."

I do want max compensation - but not for myself. The pilot on the flight should be compensated for a manager lying and misrepresenting that the orders came from him (Cathay reps lied later, on audio). Cabin crew should be compensated. So should all the passengers, and Cathay should donate to charity and enact a reform.

I despise money, myself. If my costs get covered here and they reform, I'm happy.

I don't really understand why you've gotten into an argument on the aircraft.
If you didn't have a business class boarding pass, why did you not resolve that issue prior to boarding?
Why did you wait till you boarded the plane with an economy class boarding pass and sit in a seat that wasn't allocated to you?

I think you also need to wake up and realise your not in Kansas anymore, pulling these kind of stunts in some countries could have resulted in an even worse situation then in HK. This is the reality of travelling abroad.

Please post some more information and clarify, because it seems very odd.

The whole day was screwed up from the start. Look, I've flown... dozens, maybe hundreds of times? I've never had a day like that. I've been through 60-some countries now and done all kinds of strange travel (China to Mongolia over land-crossing type stuff) and never had anything close to this.

The end result of what happened was I had two paper economy tickets and a slip of paper with handwriting on it that said First Class, but I was seated in Business on the first flight and not First... I went to the business class lounge to get the tickets changed, they scanned the economy ticket, it beeped, and then they said, "Oh, you're eligible for the first class lounge" and they had a staff member walk me there. I'd meant to ask at business class about if I needed to change paper tickets, but they scanned mine and things were fine, and then First Class just waved me without much fuss, and I figured things were okay.

The whole day was a cluster**** from start to finish, after 4-5 screwups and not-quite-rights you kind of just figure you'll have to explain it to a manger. And so I asked for one politely. And he shows up and threatens me.

Really though, the tickets are kind of irrelevant. When someone says, "You're making a mistake, but fine, I'll do it your way - just commit it to writing" - the appropriate response isn't to call the police.

He could have said, "Step off the plane and I'll write my decision down" and I'd have done it. He could have said his decision on audio - if he was 100% sure he was right, he only needed to just repeat it again. The story isn't the travel screwup - I've seen many of those, I was at Heathrow on my way to Kiev the day the plane crashed on the runway, and that was a hell of a time, I had Austria -> Dubai screwed up due to extremely heavy winds and spent a night in Germany, I've seen all sorts of stuff. But I've never been threatened, which is just absurd. And I tell the guy to own some accountability for his threat, and he calls the police? Absurd. Nah, it's beyond absurd. We can't let people act like this. I'm strong enough to speak up for myself and usually people start acting more decently. But guys like Murphy just abuse and coerce weak people, and make the world a terrible place to live in.

Hi Sebastian,

I appreciate what happened to you was intimidating and upsetting, but something still doesn't add up with your story.

I've personally never heard of anyone upgraded without a new boarding pass and seat assignment issued (or at least the new seat assignment written onto the boarding pass), regardless of what ticket and receipt you have.

Do you feel that you personally could have handled the situation any differently? What outcome do you see from the situation now? How better do you think CX could have dealt with your situation?

the appropriate response isn't to call the police.

The people reading this thread have been in aviation for years, we know that police are not called as a first response. We know police would have been called as a last resort.

We also know the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance, and that obstructing crew and unruly behaviour is an offence punishable with up to 5 years imprisonment. It is not and specific airline policy or procedure, it is Hong Kong law. If you tried that on any carrier from any country whilst in Hong Kong, and failed to move when requested, the appropriate response is to get the police involved. The behaviour you described in my opinion is contrary to Hong Kong law.

I would have had a long hard think about making that statement you posted on your blog to the police, I do not think you thought about the implications that that statement would have under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise making public statements that you have all of the events as an audio recording in my view has been ill thought out by you considering the implications under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise remaining in Hong Kong where you could still be arrested under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance in my view has been ill though through.

I look forward to the new entry on another blog, Stupid Criminals - Dumb Crooks - Funny Stories Jokes Humor And Satire (http://stupidcrooks.criminallawlawyer.net)

It is not reasonable to delay an aircraft 200 pax and around 14 crew for 40 minutes and potentially causing cascading delays through the day, delaying another aircraft and cargo, and another group of passengers, and possibly other connecting flights.

It is not reasonable to have an assigned economy boarding pass and economy seat allocation and fail to sit in that seat.

It is not reasonable to not to comply with a reasonable request to move to the seat that is printed on the boarding pass.

It is not reasonable to request that that direction be issued to you in writing, when the seat assignment was issued in writing.

It is not reasonable to expect further carriage after you had been offloaded due to your behaviour.

It is not reasonable to expect a refund after you had been offloaded due to your behaviour.

I would like to see people who hold aircraft up like this to have to pay for the delay, there is a real tangible cost in delaying and aircraft, 200 passengers, 14 odd crew, cargo, ground equipment, and ground staff.

I appreciate what happened to you was intimidating and upsetting, but something still doesn't add up with your story.

That all starts with the sort of person that buys a BA Y class ticket to go from PEK to TPE, flies the first sector with KA.....and then states "the tickets are kind of irrelevant"....

Somehow it is all the fault of CX ???????

I would have had a long hard think about making that statement you posted on your blog to the police, I do not think you thought about the implications that that statement would have under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise making public statements that you have all of the events as an audio recording in my view has been ill thought out by you considering the implications under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise remaining in Hong Kong where you could still be arrested under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance in my view has been ill though through.

You're thinking about rational self-interest, and I'm thinking about principles.

The rest of your comment was like that - why hold things up? Couldn't I just back down, and leave it at that?

And the answer is - no. I believe this man behaved totally irresponsibly and refused to be held accountable in writing or on audio. I gave multiple ways for him to de-escalate, he would have none of them except blind obedience or violence. The world should not work this way. If requesting a written record of an abusive manager's threat is a punishable offense, then I accept whatever punishment may come. If staying in Hong Kong and making the event transparent to the world lands me in jail, then I accept the jailtime. The world should not be run on coercion without any accountability.

I believe this man behaved totally irresponsibly and refused to be held accountable in writing or on audio.

Under Hong Kong Law it is the passenger that is accountable for their actions, not the crew, not ground staff, not the airline, not the airport, and not Police.

Yes as a passenger you are required to "just back down, and leave it at that", if you have a dispute, that should not be sorted out onboard an aircraft. In the transcript that you published, the Police said that to you a number of times. If that was a US registered aircraft with an Air Marshal onboard, you would have been arrested and prevented from ever flying again.

There is no requirement under Hong Kong Law for any direction to move seats to be made in writing. To ask for something in writing that you already had printed on your economy class boarding pass is being belligerent. You were asking for something you already had.

You will get no sympathy on here at all for your actions, you have displayed no consideration, compassion, or remorse for the people you indiscriminately decided to delay. It is people like yourself that make our days longer, increase our workloads, increase the stress levels, and take time away from our families. All for what ? not wanting to sit in the seat assigned to you on your boarding pass.

You have shown little consideration for the defenceless company representatives that you verbally abused and taunted, they were doing their jobs. They put up with this sort of crap from people like yourself every day. The way things are done in Asia, the company would terminate their employment to show they did something about it. And all you would have achieved is putting a few more people out of work, and those people also have families which you do not seem to care about either.

You are so so selfish.

Marshall, do you realize that if you did this back in the USA you would have been tazered, arrested and sentenced to jail time and right now would probably be cuddling up to Bubba in your 6 by 12 room.

My 2 cents on your situation, is that yes the manager most probably could have behaved differently but then so could you. It sounds to me that you knew that things were not right with your booking and that you intentionally went and sat in the wrong seat with the pure intention of proving your point.

So when you say that you gave him the opportunity to de scale the situation...are you sure you did? Maybe you should have got off the aircraft and sorted out the issue properly before reboarding or catching the next flight.

Remember two wrongs do not make a right!:ok:

Having read a bit more about this it is actually quite amusing, your transcript from the police station tells a lot. A guy comes to the police station on the 26th December and is quite reasonable and you call him an idiot multiple times in front of him.

You say the captain never ordered you to be removed from the plane. I am pretty sure after you had delayed his flight for over 30 minutes he would have done. You probably think this means walking up to you and saying to your face to get of the plane, it does not. A guy would have stuck his head into the flight deck and said something along the lines of "its not getting better, he will not sit down, shall we offload him?" Captain would have said "yes". That's it, no fan fair no writing you a letter, a simple yes that you wont hear or see and he has authorized you be removed from the aircraft. I can say with almost 100% certainty that the captain of your flight was consulted and he DID want you removed from the aircraft.

Its funny that you still think being a citizen of the united states of america makes any difference at all. I assume you still think this as mention that you have contacted the US consulate and got the number for homeland security :confused:. You are in CHINA, what do you think homeland security will do?

You seem to also be confused about company policy and customer service. I hope that EVERYONE who works for CX puts company policy before customer service. The main purpose of company policy within an airline is to increase the safety of the operation and protect our customers (including you). I don't know what the policy in the situation is but I am pretty sure that if at the gate and there is a passenger refusing to sit down or follow lawful commands the policy is to remove him/her and deal with it off the aircraft, if they refuse to leave then the police are called. I expect most people will be glad that CX follows company policy rather than just changing it at the request of an individual.

It sounds to me like the ground staff did a good job in an awkward situation, maybe the manager was rude but as someone has pointed out he will have to deal with this :mad: multiple times a day. You had an economy seat, refused to move, had something handwritten about first class and were demanding he write you his orders down. You should have moved, everyone who has read your story can see that but you seem to believe that most of the world will run like the USA and if someone thinks they can get compensation they go for it. I am glad to say that most of the world is not like that.

Did the aircraft you were on even have a first class? What was the flight number?

I think it is time to quieten down and move on. Not as I think this could hurt the company I work for as it can't. It wont reduce any sales, they wont even pay for additional legal advice it will just be handled in house. You are not a big threat and that is why they did not send a lawyer along to the police station. What you are trying to do will not work, mainly because you were in the wrong.

At first, I was kind of glad this guy was standing up for himself against what appeared to be a power-tripping ground agent, so I read along and clicked a couple of links....

As soon as I saw this guy's "title" I had had enough. For someone to actually state in writing in a complaint to the police that his "title" (below his name/signature) is "Citizen of the United States of America" is so incredibly ridiculous, arrogant, delusional, laughable, meaningless and stupid, and filled with some sense of entitlement to special treatment, I no longer had any respect for this guy or his argument.

I once read that there are two types of Americans: Those that are laughed at by every other culture in the world, and those that are embarrassed to be associated with the first type.

Two questions for critics -

1. Is it smart to call the police instead of repeating yourself after someone turns on an audio recorder?

2. Is lying to the police wrong?

As soon as I saw this guy's "title" I had had enough. For someone to actually state in writing in a complaint to the police that his "title" (below his name/signature) is "Citizen of the United States of America" is so incredibly ridiculous, arrogant, delusional, laughable, meaningless and stupid, and filled with some sense of entitlement to special treatment, I no longer had any respect for this guy or his argument.

I mention I'm American because my country strongly protects free speech rights abroad if a citizen gets in trouble for releasing information about true events. The American Consulate would intervene if I was arrested, whereas a less influential country might not be able to. I wanted Cathay management, legal, etc to know that.

Again - threatening police action against someone being polite is a very big deal - you can't refuse accountability for that. If you think calling the police is a superior option to just repeating your decision once a paying customer asks for it on audio, then your ethics are so far different from mine that I don't know what else to tell you.

I just realized a number of people replying are Cathay pilots.

Look, maybe most of offloads deserve it and are jerks. Maybe. This isn't that, though. I've traveled through 60+ countries, flown a bunch, have acquaintances who are pilots, and never had anything remotely like this.

You're filtering what happened here through your own experience, probably imaging some guy being unreasonable. I wasn't. I explained to the manager reasonably that Cathay screwed up a bunch while the flight was still boarding, and he went right to demands/threats. When I asked for a record of that (written or audio), he called the police.

You can say whatever you like about being an American, make insults, whatever. I stand up for what I think is right. Threatening people capriciously is wrong, we can't let jerks just threaten people and not be accountable.

Some people here have been damn nasty. I've explained what happened and answered questions pretty reasonably, and you guys are kind of making insults. Whatever, it's a pilot's forum, you blow off steam here, someone's fighting your company's management, maybe you sympathize with them, or think that if I got offloaded I must have deserved it, or that you think it wasn't the right call to insist that his threats and jerk behavior be recorded for posterity because it screws up timetables.

Okay. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But I think what they did was really wrong, and I was willing to take a lot of cost, a lot of stress, a lot of risk, and ruin my entire vacation to fix things after working 30 days straight. I'm damn sincere that things need change. Maybe you disagree. But that's what's happening here.

I just realized a number of people replying are Cathay pilots.

Try most Einstein. And the non-Cathay people are Dragonair pilots.

sebastian, if you have flown so much, surely you realize that airline seats are assigned and printed on your boarding pass. how would you know when you entered the aircraft that the seat you chose in business was not assigned to someone else? (as you said, the aircraft was still boarding while this discussion was going on.)

also, if you have flown a lot, you will know that cabin staff are not authorized to change seats (from one class to another; obviously people can and do move within a class of service if there are open seats), even after doors are closed and there are spare seats. i believe that is true of every airline around the world. the ground staff, with access to the computers can change seats, and when they do, they print you a new boarding pass.

yes it was a clusterf*** day and maybe cx did make mistakes. maybe you should have had a j seat instead of y. but really man, it is your responsibility to sort that out before you get on the plane. maybe the guy was rude and maybe he could have handled the thing better. but if it were me i would have either a) sucked it up and realized i was not gonna sit in j with a y seat allocation or b) waited til the next flight and sorted it out on the ground.

and fyi, i am not a professional pilot, but i am a pilot and fly small planes. i can tell you that in airline culture, safety is everything. also, as other posters pointed out, the impact of a delay is not just for the folks on that flight, but for other folks waiting in taipei for the return flight, who have connections, for other flight crew etc etc. the cascade effect is massive. so that is why they are going to be strict with one passenger who is holding things up because he/she does not want to sit in the seat printed on the boarding pass. the people charged with getting the flight off on time do not know and cannot know about the series of mistakes that caused you to believe you had the wrong seat.

just my two cents!

and i realize your issue is not about the seat but about the guy not repeating or writing his decision. again, maybe he could have done that better (by repeating, not by writing, mind).
as for calling the police, there was an impasse and even if it was of cx's making they have to get the show on the road.

"Threatening people capriciously is wrong, we can't let jerks just threaten people and not be accountable."

Regrettably, several US administrations have done the same SM., and signing off as a 'Citizen of the USA', displays such out of touch arrogance that you'll always turn people off, yet you'll always be blind to that,.....and that is a shame, 'cos in soooo many ways you are right., look at how many (Thousands?) of threads are here on this site deploring the imbecilic behaviour of the TSA, and the actions you describe at CX, are, at least at face value, are as moronic as the TSA fiasco.

Still CX have the cards stacked in their interest via HKG air law, and other carriers are afforded the same level of unquestionable protection (as per SWH), and from an objective view it can be seen there is not much between an imbecile TSA employee and an arrogant CX employee when viewed through the paradigm of 'enhanced safety' due security concerns.

A 'catch all' ain't it?

Those Saudis are to blame are they not?, all the 911 culprits were Saudia nationals, they're curiously exempt though....yet the actions of their fellow countrymen bought about a massive decline in freedom and liberty in the west as we know it......and that is a real shame, but as you say SM, no accountability........

When travelling through the USA on staff tkts now, (leisure travel only but on staff tkts)and I'm stamped '---' on my boarding pass, I make sure to walk up to the nice TSA man with my hands on my head and make out that I am the criminal that they perceive me to be....invariably they ask me to put my hands down, and I reply, 'But Sir, you're swabbing my luggage for traces of explosives, clearly you believe me to be a threat to the country'

Reminds them of how f**king ridiculous they are, you see........so I can sympathise when you ask for written confirmation, but you're a commendable fool if you think you can better the situation, I wish you could, I wish we could, but at the end of the day the laws are in place to ensure whatever monkey tells you what hoop to jump through , you have to jump through

IMHO the actions of the (Predominately) Saudi 911 perpetrators have lessened our freedoms, and have given rise to all manner of 'Power Tripper' under the guise of 'enhanced security'

Not sure why so many Saudis nationals are allowed to perpetrate the 911 atrocities without accountability....maybe teh CX guy can give you a clue????:confused::confused:

It's very simple. You refused to move to your ticketed seat, and refused to get off the aeroplane when ordered. Like it or not, you don't make caveats on the requests/orders of the airline staff, such as "only if you put it in writing". Neither should you. Therefore, by insisting pointlessly that the manager put it in writing, you were essentially not complying with his/Captains orders. Therefore, you needed to be removed. The cabin crew aren't going to manhandle you, the ground staff aren't, that's the police job. If you've flown to over 60 countries and crossed borders and started schools and written best selling books in a week yadayadayada, then you should have the A) travel experience to know that the seat on the boarding pass is the one you sit in, B) intelligence to realise that if you screw around on an aeroplane, you'll be meeting the local police, and C) enough knowledge of airline ticketing procedures and check in etc to realise that a hand written receipt with first class scrawled on it does not constitute proof of having purchased an upgrade.

It's certainly proof that someone has hand written first class on a receipt.

In addition, from your travel knowledge, I'm sure you'd be aware that access to the first or business class lounge is not evidence of having purchased an upgrade. There's lots of reasons people are granted access to the lounges.

Perhaps, for the avoidance of doubt, you'd scan your boarding passes and hand written receipts into the site so we can all assess how genuine they are for ourselves.

You could also tell the flight number and date, so we might check that there actually was a first class, in the interests of credibility.

For my money, I think you're more than likely that guy that has to make a scene, in a bid to validate himself and convince himself of his world changing ability.

As for your letter to the publisher on your website: if you'd written me that letter I wouldn't have crawled out of bed to reply to that obnoxious drivel either.

All the best

The only thing I can tell is that this Sebastian dude likes to read his own writing and by watching his blog loves the sound of his own voice.

However you call it, you caused a commotion and in the interests of security you were removed - Sound decision on CX's part if you ask me.

If you were in the USA regardless of being a "US Citizen" you would be a prison bitch right now in the local penitentiary.

:ugh: :ugh:

While you've got the scanner out, might as well scan the credit card statements too.

The more I read of this transcript, the worse it gets. I'm surprised they let you drag it out for 40 minutes! Seems lax of them. Murphy is probably in the crap for that; he should have kicked you off earlier.

And to finish with, a quote from your own "transcript".

"....You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true...."

My Bold.

Good night

Regrettably, several US administrations have done the same SM., and signing off as a 'Citizen of the USA', displays such out of touch arrogance that you'll always turn people off, yet you'll always be blind to that,.....and that is a shame, 'cos in soooo many ways you are right., look at how many (Thousands?) of threads are here on this site deploring the imbecilic behaviour of the TSA, and the actions you describe at CX, are, at least at face value, are as moronic as the TSA fiasco.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Let me ask you, you've got some good opinions here - how could things be different with management, security, etc?

I mean, me, whatever. Some people see this as "guy who held up plane (I don't think so by the way, Murphy just had to say his stuff again and it would have been over), screw him, what a jerk" and some people see this as "guy who says you can't make threats without creating a record of them, middle managers can't just threaten people and not be accountable, the world needs to run better than that."

You could look at it either way. As pilots, you don't want your time wasted. I know. The pilot was pretty cool to me, by the way. I read people pretty well, and I get the impression the middle manager was really disliked by everyone. Chubby guy in a power suit with a power haircut, bossy, demanding, insulting, patronizing, abusive.

But never mind him and me, how about in general? There's a bunch of threads on here about security/nonsense going too far? Well, I don't think it's going to change unless people make some intelligent suggestions and then push hard for that change. What should security look like, different than it is now, in everyone's opinion?

And to finish with, a quote from your own "transcript".

"....You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true...."

My Bold.

Good night

Right, I'm actually open to their perspective and the idea that I might be wrong. I was willing to discuss it. I was talking about how I want to get this over with and behind us, and Kenny brought up that 200 people's nights were wasted. I was open to their point of view - I said I think their manager wasted the time, but I can see how they'd see it differently.

You should probably just read entire thing in context, I was telling him I don't want to fight Cathay in public and a mutual apology would be enough for me -


SM: You think you gonna gain business if i fight you in public and release this. you think this is gonna help you? You think this can help you?

Kenny: Yes, but in case, surely you’re affecting over 200 of our customers and the flight has been delayed for 38 minutes..on this case.

Sm: Who’s fault is that? Mine?

Kenny: And..

SM: Mine? Or the guy who would have say “Sit down, we can talk about it when we get to Taipei” It was all empty, the business class. The business class is all empty by the way, there’s no one in business class, and i i told him if he just writes down and sign his decision, then i’ll get off or sit in the thing, before the flight is even delayed, he refused to do that. He could have done that. but he just threatened me.

Kenny: And also you refuse to go back to your seat.

SM: He threatened me. Would you accept a threat?

Kenny: Also you refuse to go back to sit at your seat right?

SM: All he had to do was to sign his decision, and write the facts, and sign it, and i would go, is that a reasonable thing?

Kenny: It’s not his decision, it’s the captain’s.

SM: The captain never said anything to go. He did not tell me to go.

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: Do you understand that the captain never told me to go?

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: No? I got that on audio.

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: DO YOU GET THAT I RECORDED EVERYTHING? Look, look, recording. I’ve got 2 -3 hours of this now. I don’t think you’ve realized what’s going on here. You’re like making the biggest mistake of your life, like it’s gonna ruin a lot of people’s lives. I don’t want to ruin a lot of people’s lives, which is why i’m here offering peace. You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true. It’s a about to get a lot worse. So i’m offering peace. A very simple peace. Don’t even apologize for what you did, just say we’re sorry tht a bad experience happened, no one will be at fault, i’m mutual apology. Hey if you refuse, that’s fine. you’re perogative, you can do whatever you like.

Kenny: You’ll fail.

SM (to Lai): Inspector, what can i do man? They wanted me to do it their way, but they’re acting actually wrong, they made two mistakes, they threatened me, they’re being rigid, stubborn, i think i’m being pretty cool here. You’re they one that told me don’t get a lawyer, just let it go, they’ll be cool, you’re mistaken. They’re not cool.

there are many threads with suggestions about how to improve security, but i am not sure they are relevant here.

i learned long ago that in every country, in every company, there are people who either consistently or for some reason on a certain day, act poorly to people in front of them. nothing in your crusade is going to change that. (although i wish it would). sometimes, you have to just learn the old "nobless oblige" thing and realize you are facing a person on a power trip who has all the systems behind him/her. self righteousness is never gonna win in that situation. i spent a few hours in cuffs at a jail house in the US on the night of my university graduation because i did something slightly wrong and the law acted way out of line in the circumstances. ever since then, when i see a situation like that, i am all "yessir, no sir" because being otherwise is not going to help my cause.

you may think that is weak and lame, but quite frankly, even if you "win" this case and your murphy guy gets sacked and ruined, it is not going to stop that mentality in small parts of the human race. just deal with it and move on. i have since been in much worse situations than you were just in and i got my way out of it and moved on.

but hey, maybe you will be like alec baldwin and gain some sort of fame for all that and there will be a skit on SNL or an appearance on letterman. if so, good for you, honestly. but i can assure you, you will end up with the short end of the stick again one day (as we all do from time to time) and my advice would be to shrug it off, laugh about it when the anger subsides, and move on.

i learned long ago that in every country, in every company, there are people who either consistently or for some reason on a certain day, act poorly to people in front of them. nothing in your crusade is going to change that. (although i wish it would). sometimes, you have to just learn the old "nobless oblige" thing and realize you are facing a person on a power trip who has all the systems behind him/her. self righteousness is never gonna win in that situation. i spent a few hours in cuffs at a jail house in the US on the night of my university graduation because i did something slightly wrong and the law acted way out of line in the circumstances. ever since then, when i see a situation like that, i am all "yessir, no sir" because being otherwise is not going to help my cause.


That sucks dude, I'm sorry that happened. University graduation? Man, that's a hell of a lot worse than when going on vacation.

I'll tell you James, man, I don't know... I think this thing only happens because people take it. Also, y'know, I think part of the problem is that I was dressed strange that day - halfway high-business like you saw in the first video, halfway touristy... I think he mistook me for a punk rock kid or something, not a serious businessman. I was talking to him as an equal (maybe even slightly condescending, maybe) and he flips out - I think it's a face/authority thing. I wonder if the same thing happened in your case, since you were "just a college kid" when they did that to you?

You know what I mean? Like, you're a pilot, I'm a businessman, we get treated pretty well. Doesn't it kind of suck that weak people get muscled around? We can file complaints, sort it out later, write nasty letters... but I think authority tends to not try to crack down on us so much because we're serious people. But what about the people who just take the abuse of some jerk's power trip?

I think people like Murphy try to do it to weak people. I'm 99% sure he mistook me for just some cocky kid or something. I was dressed off - long black coat, ushanka Russian hat, but then light blue jeans, fashionable young shirt, scarf... it didn't match at all, I just threw it together to go on vacation.

But man, so what? I hate that, I hate that people like Murphy just abuse people when they feel like they can get away with it. I guarantee he wouldn't pull that shit if I was in a suit.

I just... it drives me crazy to think he'll pick on people who won't stand up for themselves.

Basings issues, tax law problems, fuel hedging, freight downturn, aircraft deliveries, crew shortage.......oh hang on, some guy thinks he's entitled to a J class seat.........yeah we'll look into that one.
Go away...pest.

i hate it too... and i have taken that kind of abuse while wearing a business suit! but it has been human nature since the time of pontius pilate and before, so getting all stressed and trying to stop that aspect of human nature is kinda pissing in the wind in my opinion. i would much rather get on with my life knowing it is probably much better than that of my temporary tormentor!

how do you think all those pilots feel who get harrassed at security every day they report to work when they know that if they really want to crash the plane, they don't need that nail cutter that has just been confiscated from them? read some of the posts around this sprawling forum. do they go on a crusade? no... they shake it off and go about their jobs.

@<hidden> - Well said. :ok:

how do you think all those pilots feel who get harrassed at security every day they report to work when they know that if they really want to crash the plane, they don't need that nail cutter that has just been confiscated from them?

I bet they feel aggravated as ****, and wish things would change and be less stupid.

I mention I'm American because my country strongly protects free speech rights

now thats funny! your country is one of the most "monitored" countries in the world. what a joke buddy.

all you did was cause extra grief & stress to the ground staff and cabin crew. Pull ya head in and act like a human being FGS! is it so hard?

"i'm an American" :yuk:

Mr Marshall,

What I hope you are cluey enough to interpret from the posts on the forum here, is that the lack of support for your case, is due to the fact that we see muppets try this thing on all the time, but they generally have the good grace to up sticks and retreat back to cattle class when caught out.

That the Captain was nice to you shows some of us are more charitable than others, perhaps he realised you were special. Personally, I would have taken firmer steps to have you removed sooner, whether it be back down to Y class or off the plane. I'm too old to put up with childish tantrums, and exceptionally intolerant of rudeness and stupidity. I would even be prepared to eject you from the aircraft if you refused to sit where you were told, even if Cathay have made a mistake, as there are hundreds of other passengers being affected by actions such as yours. It comes down to keeping the show on the road for the greater good of the majority.

You would of course have had my sincerest apologies as you exited C class along with my thanks for seeing the bigger picture, and I would have pointed you in the right direction to help you right the perceived wrong you had the indignity of suffering.

Now without seeing copies of your receipts or hand written 'first class' documents etc, you will excuse the vast majority of us from looking at you with a degree of sceptiscism.

Much of this comes from the fact that we are very different from you. Whilst you may think that our previous battles and disagreements with management may incline us to rally to your cause, we tend to look at problems from an objective point of view.

We tend to deal in finites, are more science based and see things as black and white, you on the other hand seem more at the arty flaky wishy-washy end of the scale.

If we are travelling in C class, we tend to dress accordingly, you on the other hand, by your own admission were probably not portraying the image that many C class travellers portray, but that's your choice when you pay for your ticket.

At the crux of the matter, is that if you have flown as much and as widely as you claim, you have demonstrated a woefully poor learning curve when it comes to the basics of ticketing and boarding passes. I am not saying Cathay did not make a mistake, that is possible, however to expect to get on the aircraft with an Y class boarding pass and insert yourself in a C class seat expecting nothing to be said, then you are clearly more unaware than you try and portray.
If however you were aware that would cause a confrontation, with the ensuing delay for many others, then to do so deliberately to make a point is bordering on childish. I know you are young, your hairdo and clothes show that as much as your know-it-all manner, however if you want to be taken seriously, start acting like an adult and get your big boy pants on.

Really your whole reaction, pre-planned or not, comes across as most childish.
Principles or not, it appears most people here would rather you just wind your neck in and grow up.

With apologies to my normal American friends, the old adage - "You can always tell an American, you just can't tell him much" is never demonstrated truer than in a case like this.

Finally, now that you are no longer causing inconvenience to other passengers, I wish you well in your quest for retribution. If I was handling the case, I would write you a nice letter of apology, give you a refund for the amount paid, offer you a free upgrade to C class the next time you travel, and provide an information sheet/learning guide as to what to do when someone gives you a Y class boarding pass but you believed you were entitled to a higher class of travel.

Good luck in life, you have a lot of potential, but an awful lot to learn if you are going to use it wisely.

it's because I'm moving fast and trying to change the world.

Yeh, right.

Maybe I fit the model of a guy who is an asshole, or whatever. Maybe I am an asshole, I don't know.

Let me help you out; you do, and you are.

Quote SM: ''I just realized a number of people replying are Cathay pilots''.

What, on the Hong Kong forum of a Professional Pilot's website?

No sh!t Sherlock!

Wot a tango whiskey alpha tango.....

Keyboard infatuant loses oxygen of publicity shock

Continued Page 94

Rob