PDA

View Full Version : Aerotouring in Italy


deanoverton
29th Dec 2011, 17:09
Help! Just taken delivery of the wonderful Aerotouring Flight Guide to Italy and half mill charts for a summer 2012 tour of Italy and I find out that the Italian government is imposing a tax on all aircraft that remain in Italy for longer than 48 hrs. The fee looks like it could be well in excess of £1,000 for my Mooney! Surely, knowing Italy, there are dodges for this tax? Obviously going in and out of Italy every 48 hours is one dodge - but this seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? Will it apply to San Marino and if not, does a trip to S/M count as exiting Italy? Please can I have an interpretation from you aviation Italophiles out there?

Dean Overton

PS original story can be found at: Italian Emergency budget approves additional taxation on any business aviation aircraft which stays in the country for more than 48 hours | | BBGABBGA (http://www.bbga.aero/2011/12/italian-emergency-budget-approves-additional-taxation-on-any-business-aviation-aircraft-which-stays-in-the-country-for-more-than-48-hours/)

Jan Olieslagers
29th Dec 2011, 17:30
There actuallly IS an aerodrome in San Marino, but for what I understand of Mooneys you had better avoid it - the cost of repairs might well exceed any perceived profit.
(check A.C.S. Aero Club San Marino (http://www.aeroclubsanmarino.sm/) and take note of the runway length)(or search the www for Torraccia and something aviation-related)

peterh337
29th Dec 2011, 17:31
It's a bizzare website... you have to download a file which needs a new version of M$ Word to read it :) Anyway...

December 23, 2011

Italy's emergency budget plan won final approval in Parliament as Italy struggles to tame surging borrowing costs.
The emergency budget is introducing also a tax on Italian registered private aircraft and on non-Italian registered private aircraft having spent more than 48 consecutive hours on Italian territory.
Private aircraft are defined to include all aircraft other than State aircraft; aircraft dedicated to commercial flights, air work aircraft, FTO’s aircraft, aero clubs aircraft, newly built aircraft until sold and rescue aircraft. Non Italian corporate aircraft operated privately would - for example - be affected, with the tax escalating to over euro 300,000 annually for large corporate jets.
The tax is to be charged at the following annual rates (by reference to MTOW): 1) up to 1.000 kg., euro 1,50 per kg; 2) up to 2.000 kg., euro 2,45 per kg; 3) up to 4.000 kg., euro 4,25 per kg; 4) up to 6.000 kg., euro 5,75 per kg; 5) up to 8.000 kg., euro 6,65 per kg; 6) up to 10.000 kg., euro 7,10 per kg; 7) above 10.000 kg., euro 7,55 per kg; For helicopters, the tax is doubled per Kg.
The tax is due by the registered owner, the beneficiary or the lessee. The technicalities regarding actual payment are to be detailed in a separate regulation to be issued within 60 days.
The actual legality of the tax, especially for non-Italian registered aircraft, is highly questionable and unless amendments or mitigating measures are introduced within the implementing regulation, subject to judicial challenges nationally and at EU level.

So, based aircraft avoid it if they are in an aeroclub.

But visitors are hit. This will kill GA visits to Italy, of couse.

Much better to stick to the eastern side of the Adriatic, IMHO. Some trip reports here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/) :) Slovenia and Croatia are GA heaven compared to Italy and even Greece is much easier. Even getting hold of avgas in Italy is a game. A lot of the places that claim to have it won't sell it to foreigners.

patowalker
29th Dec 2011, 17:42
You might get lucky, if your Mooney is old: Senator Leoni has tabled an amendment, seeking reductions and exemptions related to the age of the aircraft, as applies to boats and luxury cars.

L’AeCI comunica che il Commissario Straordinario, Sen. Giuseppe Leoni ha presentato in Senato un emendamento al “Decreto Monti” per introdurre anche per i velivoli dell’Aviazione Generale riduzioni ed esenzioni legati all’età del velivolo, a similitudine di quanto avviene per le imbarcazioni e le auto di lusso.
Il Direttore Generale
Gen. Carlo Landi

Jan Olieslagers
29th Dec 2011, 17:48
And if they are still discussing amendments to the law - which must first be voted, and then implemented - I think the 2012 summer holiday trip stays well out of range.
Might well inspire me to cross into Italy earlier than I had yet thought of, though.

patowalker
29th Dec 2011, 18:08
And if they are still discussing amendments to the law - which must first be voted, and then implemented - I think the 2012 summer holiday trip stays well out of range.

That seems to be backed up by a post on an egroup discussing this issue: "We in Italy do three things well: complain, analyse and stand still."

peterh337
29th Dec 2011, 19:53
If Italy really does pull this unbelievable stunt off, then I suppose it makes it a little easier to understand how a complete clown like Berlusconi could be in charge of Italy for as long as he has been.

I feel sorry for the GA pilots based there.

peterh337
30th Dec 2011, 07:28
There is a lot of "ultralight" (using the term loosely) activity in Italy; I expect they will escape this tax.

Locally, as in much of southern Europe, stuff can be "done" if you know the right people.

The problem is that a straight visitor is a bit stuffed. If you land at some airport and somebody walks up to you and asks for $1000, how can you argue?

patowalker
30th Dec 2011, 07:43
That said, most of the don't have an I-number because they are registered (I believe) with the Italian Aero Club. Don't be fooled by the lack of a tail number. ULMs are only required to have the number under the wing.

Identification of equipment. To be able to fly airplanes must be equipped with a metal plate with the identification number issued by the AEC. The same number must be marked on the bottom of the wing with letters of a minimum size of 30x15 cm in contrasting colors.

The Italian Aero Club is reporting Sen. Leoni's proposed amendment to the Monti decree on its website, which suggests members are affected.

Shorrick Mk2
30th Dec 2011, 08:29
The tax is to be charged at the following annual rates (by reference to MTOW):

Bold mine. Does that mean that the annual rate will be prorated to the number of actual days spent in Italy? In that case it's not too bad.

peterh337
30th Dec 2011, 09:35
The "visitor AOG" scenario is actually a much bigger spanner in the works of this than most realise.

A system will need to be set up whereby a suitable authority certifies an aircraft as unable to leave Italy due to a lack of airworthiness, and this will need to be implemented and operated nationally.

This, I believe, is the biggest reason why both previously proposed long term parking bans (France in 2004 and UK in 2005; N-reg) were dropped. Both of those proposals would have otherwise forced the aircraft to be dismantled and carted out on a trailer after 90 contiguous days of parking in the country.

What Italy is now proposing is effectively the same thing but with the action commencing after 48 hours of parking in the country. This will catch a much larger % of aircraft than the previous proposals.

It's obvious they have not thought this through.

A while ago, Greece proposed a big tax on based aircraft but they seem to have dropped it after the entire Greek fleet started moving to the Cypriot registry.

What these countries need to tackle is the runaway and totally out of control tax evasion which is supported by widespread corruption. This is where the vast majority of the collectible tax lies, but it is obviously hard to collect...

patowalker
30th Dec 2011, 11:56
Those interested in touring Italy might want to download this excellent guide
Avioportolano Italia (http://www.avioportolano.it/downloads.php?cat_id=2)

peterh337
30th Dec 2011, 12:45
That guide looks great but is from 2005...

vihai
30th Dec 2011, 13:45
I own a share of an old DG-300 glider which seems to be affected by the tax even if registered in the german registry (cause the italian registry is a mess).

The tax would amount to 450 € which would raise the current budget I set by roughly 50% more.

Their reason is that owning a 26-years old glider in two people is an "expression of evident richness"... yeah... right.

A and C
2nd Jan 2012, 09:35
For those of you who want to tour Italy with your own aircraft and are members of a UK flying club I am sure that you could come to some understanding with your club to become the operator of the aircraft for a short while, twenty quids worth of stick on logo and all of a sudden your aircraft falls into the Aero club catorgry and no tax is paid.

172driver
2nd Jan 2012, 17:57
The cynic in me tells me that Italy may soon become the go-to country to pick up cheap airplanes... :suspect:

Jan Olieslagers
2nd Jan 2012, 19:09
And I have a feeling nothing very much will change - making me probably even more of a cynic than you.

peterh337
2nd Jan 2012, 21:38
It depends on how exactly they will collect the tax. If it is voluntary, it simply won't be paid. That is how most of southern Europe works, and that is mainly why it is in so much trouble. You cannot have a pretence of a northern European lifestyle, and have it underpinned by a traditional southern European public sector finance system :) Well, you can, on borrowed money, for a bit, until the music stops :) It's very sad for those who are now hit for taxes which should be paid by so many others who will never pay it. In September last year I flew to a little airport which opens for only ~ 2 hours per day and which has a mandatory CAA office, with four staff in there, on I guess about 50-60k euros each. Their workload was, I think, the stamping of 2 or 3 GENDEC forms each day.

deanoverton
3rd Jan 2012, 09:44
Thanks for all your suggestions. I must admit, A and C's suggestion - of the flying club endorsement - looks the most workable option on the table (assuming it comes into law before my June trip to Italy). Yes, I know Croatia, Greece and others are great places to aerotour, it's just that Italy is the one place I can earn "wife brownie points" whilst I get to fly my aeroplane - bliss!

I've never flown very far abroad before - particularly in mainland Europe (just Ireland, Northern France, Belgium and Holland), so can anyone recommend a route down to Northern Italy? My Mooney has a massive range of 950-1,000 miles with a 45 min reserve, so I could make quite a distance before stopping for a pee-break/coffee, but I wouldn't want to do the whole trip in one hop. Any suggestions where to stop for a leg stretch? Also, is there a recommended transit route for the Alps? I'd like to know the easiest rather than the quickest, as this will be my first time for crossing them. Is there a recommended clearance height above the mountains that, wx permitting, one should fly at?

Thankyou.

peterh337
3rd Jan 2012, 10:01
In short, you need to get the charts and work out suitable routes, OCAS initially and with some in-CAS options which will obviously need ATC clearance.

Perhaps the best charts are the 1:500k Jepp ones. See my 2004 Crete trip writeup for a fairly detailed example. Not a lot has changed since then for VFR.

The process is no different to your PPL flight planning.

You need a decent GPS, obviously.

You will need much more than 45 mins' reserve in the real world; more so if you are going to southern Europe :) The standard 45 mins reserve is something you want to forget right now before you do anything else. Work on 2 hours' fuel (at cruise speed) at destination and make sure you have enough to go to two alternates.

In Italy, avgas is scarce and I would strongly recommend not flying to any airport until they have confirmed in writing they have avgas and will sell it to a foreign visitor. A lot of places have avgas but they won't sell it to visitors, short of a backhander. Italy is the hardest country in Europe in this respect. Little is what it seems; I have stood right in front of the avgas pump at Oristano (see my 2010 Sardinia writeup) and not even the airport manager would discuss it... I just got a Mona Lisa smile. Some Italy lovers slag me off for repeatedly warning about this but it is true.

Trieste is a good starting point, which I think has all the facilities. Padova was also good (but will deny a landing clearance if they don't get Customs PNR, so as in all cases always contact the airport (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/operational/index.html) before flying there).

Regarding having a pee, forget about serious flying if you haven't got an in-flight provision for that :) There are various options. Many pilots totally dehydrate themselves before a flight but then your brain is not working properly.

AfricanEagle
3rd Jan 2012, 18:41
deanoverton,

nearer the date of your trip drop me a line and I'll do my best to provide suggestions and information on flying in Italy.

172driver
4th Jan 2012, 14:35
No so fast. Over in the BizAviation forum someone posted the original version of the proposed bill. The important bit for non-Italians is this:

13. (aeromobili) È istituita l’imposta erariale sugli aeromobili privati, di cui all’articolo 744 del codice della navigazione, immatricolati nel registro aeronautico nazionale, nelle seguenti misure annuali

My bold.

This means it affects only I-registered a/c.

Not to say this isn't madness and the typical European reaction to this self-made crisis (i.e. more taxes), but from a touring POV a non-event.

PS: original post here (http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/473122-italians-new-tax-snafu.html#post6931676)

NazgulAir
4th Jan 2012, 16:45
How can this proposed tax be anything but detrimental to Italian GA? It would effectively destroy private ownership by honest, law-abiding Italians. It won't stop fat cats owning foreign-registered aircraft keeping them based offshore... people who won't care about the extra ferrying costs... it will just hit the small man who loves flying and who won't be able to afford ownership.
Will the clubs be able to cope with the demand this is going to create? It might give rise to a wholly new type of club/ops centre.

achimha
4th Jan 2012, 19:38
172driver: legalese has its own rules. It is very common to find statements like "it only applies to xyz" and then some paragraphs later "but it also applies to abc". This is the perfect example. If you take the original, official law bill (http://www.gazzettaamministrativa.it/opencms/export/sites/default/_gazzetta_amministrativa/_aree_tematiche/sett_iiiii_bil_tri_fisentloc/2011/dicembre/1324591894373_conversione_in_legge_del_decreto_salva_italia. pdf), you find this:


11. È istituita l’imposta erariale sugli aeromobili privati, di cui all’articolo 744 del codice della navigazione, immatricolati nel registro aeronautico nazionale, nelle seguenti misure annuali:
a) velivoli con peso massimo al decollo:
1) fino a 1.000 kg., euro 1,50 al kg;
2) fino a 2.000 kg., euro 2,45 al kg;
3) fino a 4.000 kg., euro 4,25 al kg;
4) fino a 6.000 kg., euro 5,75 al kg;
5) fino a 8.000 kg., euro 6,65 al kg;
6) fino a 10.000 kg., euro 7,10 al kg;7) oltre 10.000 kg., euro 7,55 al kg;
b) elicotteri: l’imposta dovuta è pari al doppio di quella stabilita per i velivoli di
corrispondente peso;
c) alianti, motoalianti, autogiri e aerostati, euro 450,00

So far so good, only Italian registered airplanes but then some clever lawmaker inserted another small paragraph:

14-bis. L’imposta di cui al comma 11 è applicata anche agli aeromobili non immatricolati nel registro aeronautico nazionale la cui sosta nel territorio italiano si protrae oltre quarantotto ore.

Which says that paragraph 11 also applies to all foreign registered airplanes that stay in Italy for more than 48 hours.

The text implies that it is valid law (unless the President hasn't signed it).

172driver
4th Jan 2012, 19:46
achima, I stand corrected. The poster on the other forum left this bit out. Thanks for finding and posting this.

Madness :ugh:

gianmarko
10th Jan 2012, 16:02
i would not worry aboyut the tax, and just to be on the safe side, just use one of the over 500 airstrips, which are free, where you can find at least mogas, and where people is friendly. and where there is no control on traffic.

the amendment was a last minute change and is obviously BS. unapplicable.

AN2 Driver
10th Jan 2012, 17:37
the amendment was a last minute change and is obviously BS. unapplicable.

BS or not it is the LAW. Disregarding it won't help, but if you want to be the trial bunny and place your property onto an Italian ramp and find out if they mean it, feel free to do it. Looking at what is in the press by now regarding the Italian crackdowns at places like Cortina and others, they do mean every letter of it.

I reckon it will take some planes to be impounded on the spot in Italy for some folks to wake up. For me, Italy is a no-fly and no-drive area with immediate effect until this gets stopped.

Somehow I get the idea that this government will not last very long. There are way too many people in Italy who have everything to loose. They will put up a fight.

NazgulAir
10th Jan 2012, 18:10
For me, Italy is a no-fly and no-drive area with immediate effect until this gets stopped.

If I weren't already avoiding Italy because of the widespread need to pay baksheesh to get any service at all, I would definitely avoid it now.

Good thing I haven't a summer house there I was planning to fly to. I know someone who has, I have to ask him how he is going to manage.

patowalker
10th Jan 2012, 19:36
I am with gianmarko on this. Article 14 bis looks like a late addition and IMHO the tax is uneforceable on foreign registered aircraft.

Article 12, which Google translates as:

12. The tax is payable by the public records of who is to be owner,
usufructuary, buyer retention of title, or as a user leasing of the aircraft, and is payable on application for issue or renewal of the certificate of airworthiness review during the whole period of its validity. In the event that the certificate has a validity of less year the tax is payable at the rate of one twelfth of the amounts referred to in paragraph 11 for each month of validity.indicates that the tax is applied pro-rata. Who is going to keep count of the days an aircraft visiting different airfields in Italy remains within the country?

NazgulAir
10th Jan 2012, 20:17
Aha! Maybe this is a scheme to create a vast burocracy employing hundreds of new civil servants costing more than they hope to regain levying the taxes that they administer.

AfricanEagle
10th Jan 2012, 21:11
By 4th february who what and how to pay will be officially pubblished. Until then just be patient. Things could change.

patowalker
10th Jan 2012, 21:34
The government probably knows its uneforceable on foreign registered aircraft, but in order to get the law approved they needed to accept all those amendments (in bold).

peterh337
11th Jan 2012, 07:11
I don't think the word "unenforceable" features much in southern Europe.

If some official wants to hassle you, he just goes ahead.

These are the two sides of life down there. The other side is that "anything" is possible and laws are mostly ignored and everybody is happy.

The people who live there and speak the language generally prefer that way of doing things.

Visitors like it or don't like it, according to how good they are at communication :)

patowalker
11th Jan 2012, 08:48
Visitors like it or don't like it, according to how good they are at communication :)

If you were brought up in a country where presidents are named Pellegrini, Peron, Frondizi, Galtieri, etc, you are used to it :)

NazgulAir
11th Jan 2012, 20:56
Visitors like it or don't like it, according to how good they are at communication
Like or not like has nothing to do with my ability to communicate. If you are the kind of person who likes honesty and lawfulness and dislikes any form of graft, you will never get used to it.

peterh337
14th Jan 2012, 09:22
I understand from a German pilot friend that the German magazine "pilot und flugzeug" has published an article saying the Italians will be "clamping" aircraft after the 48hr point, to prevent them flying away.

patowalker
14th Jan 2012, 14:44
That is good news, as it will take at least 2 years before they decide who will supply the clamps. :)

Jan Olieslagers
14th Jan 2012, 18:00
...and you had already indicated we might as well change fields every 24 hours, easily eluding this clamping farce.
It will take them much more than 2 years before they ever create a consolidation of aerodrome logbooks, even if they have any, and keep them reasonably complete.

Come to think of it, operators of Italian smallish aerodromes (campi di volo) will have just one more reason to forget mentioning foreign visitors in their logs: they'll save their customers from this ridiculous tax - on top of being able to sell AvGas to them under the guise of a club member.

Straneri? Non piu c'i soni! Noi dispiace molto!

(foreigners? none, anymore. we are SO sorry!)

AN2 Driver
15th Jan 2012, 00:30
Peter,

I understand from a German pilot friend that the German magazine "pilot und flugzeug" has published an article saying the Italians will be "clamping" aircraft after the 48hr point, to prevent them flying away.

Actually, I'd like to see them try that, preferrably to a bunch of large biz jets with VIP's on. Not because I'd like to see them hassled but because it will cause an international incident of quite some proportions which might well put an end to this very fast.

Imagine the headlines: "XXX taken hostage by Italian government".

Jan Olieslagers
15th Jan 2012, 06:28
Nihil nove sub sole... even the Germans did it once.
Bangkok Post : German court begins hearings on royal jet (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/247273/german-court-begins-hearings-on-royal-jet)

good finish
6th Feb 2012, 19:55
Welcome to the Light Aircraft Association (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/2012/News/italy.html)

I am re-thinking my planned visit in june.

patowalker
6th Feb 2012, 21:44
The LAA is way off the mark. The figures they have quoted are for a whole year.

(The tax) is payable on application for issuance or renewal of the certificate of airworthiness during the whole period of its validity. In the event that the certificate is valid for less than a year the tax is payable at the rate of 1/12 of the above amounts for each month of validity.

Grassfield
6th Feb 2012, 21:52
Patowalker, I sincerely hope you are right, as your reference implies it will only applicable to Italian regd planes.

I just posted a related questions here (prorata or full year taxation?) and got a different answer... http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/473122-italians-new-tax-snafu-6.html

I hope the Italians will be reasonable and realize the absurdity of full year taxation of short term visiting aircraft...

patowalker
6th Feb 2012, 22:11
No, the tax also applies to aircraft not registered in Italy, but if it is payable pro-rata on Italian aircraft, the same must apply to foreign registered aircraft. A visit is unlikely to last more than a month, in which case the amount due is 1/12 of the annual tax.

Grassfield
6th Feb 2012, 22:19
OK, point taken on applicability to foreign a/c as well.

However, equally worrying is if they do not apply the tax on a prorata basis. A 2.5 day long weekend trip would become...ehhh... too expensive! But if they only charge prorata for the no of days visiting, then it can be lived with. I'm not saying I'm supportive of this scheme but at least it can be bearable as a visiting a/c. I guess one have to view new tax as an increased landing/parking fee, sort of...:sad:

patowalker
6th Feb 2012, 22:22
Ah, I didn't mean pro-rata on a daily basis, only pro-rata on a monthly basis. European solidarity demands that we all help get the Italians out of the mess they are in. :)

good finish
6th Feb 2012, 22:36
Repealing the law that no one can legally work on a Sunday would be a better start than taxing light aircraft and gliders!

Grassfield
6th Feb 2012, 22:36
Ok. My personal view though, is that prorata on a monthly basis is still too expensive... I guess we have to wait for the specificities around how they actually are going to implement this 'brilliant' law in practice...

peterh337
7th Feb 2012, 07:07
I have just heard from an Italian pilot (living outside Italy) who says that nobody knows the details of this yet. He is avoiding flying to Italy, however, which seems prudent. With no provision for the "cannot fly back out for whatever reason" scenario, anybody who even overflies Italy needs their head examined :ugh:

Zulu Alpha
7th Feb 2012, 08:44
Over the past couple of years they have held the World aerobatics contest and the World air games in Italy. I can't imaging anyone holding any aviation event in Italy until this tax is repealed.

Grassfield
7th Feb 2012, 09:52
Let's hope they sort out the details and how it will work in practice rather quickly (although I don't high hopes for the speed of Italian governmental bodies). It will be equally bad if we're left in an anarchistic situation where each field charge what they want, under the pretext of the new legislation, and a poor visitor just has to cough up or leave plane behind...

As mentioned in earlier posts, an option is of course to skip Italy totally as destination, but that's really dull given the attractiveness of certain destinations. The other option is to go for the < 48h stay, which is of course a risky approach if weather/tech/local hassle factor is not cooperative... :\

peterh337
7th Feb 2012, 10:08
In some cases you could fly just outside Italy.

For example if you land at Portoroz or Ljubljana (Slovenia) it is just a bus into NE Italy.

Slovenia is infinitely better organised and more GA friendly than Italy has ever been (with certain exceptions like Trieste but there you have the hassle of the avgas pump at the end of the long narrow taxiway).

One could also land anywhere along the Croatian coast (Pula, Losinj, Brac, Split, Dubrovnik - all superbly friendly and organised airports with avgas and customs) and take a relatively short boat to any of the ports on the E Italian coast.

The problem with Italy, and most of the other countries down that way, is that the way things work there is that the locals will find "ways" around it but a visitor is going to be easy prey, especially if he can't speak Italian.

Grassfield
7th Feb 2012, 10:33
I agree, for a longer stay the options you mention are viable. However, for a weekend trip things get more complicated as there's simply not enough time for long transfers. That's the beauty of e.g. Elba, venice lido in my experience where there is a very short transfer to beach/sightseeing. My experience is also that these two airfields are very hassle free. It's just a shame that a number of these wonderful places will not be accessible realistically for extended weekend trips anymore... And I would have loved to go to Sardegna this year.

As you mention, Croatia is an excellent option in terms of accesibility, price levels, no hassle, friendliness, etc. Been to Losinj for a short stay and recommend it.

Agree to your last point on ways around things for locals. Guess I have to learn Italian as a first step...

dublinpilot
7th Feb 2012, 12:29
I can see it being a bit of a nightmare for those organisations renting out their aircraft.

Some rents it, and flies into a small field in Italy, and leaves a week later without paying any taxes.

A few months later the owner gets a bill from the Italian Revenue, and the renter is nowhere to be found.

peterh337
7th Feb 2012, 16:06
I faced this when (years ago) I used to rent out my plane.

I would get prospective people proudly declaring they don't use a GPS and fly with a map and stopwatch. I then mentioned to them the French nuclear power station TRAs. Wot? Never heard of them. Notams? Wot Notams?

I didn't fancy the plane ending up in France, with a (reportedly) 10k euro ransom on it which I would have to pay, while the client got onto Easyjet back home.

Grassfield
7th Feb 2012, 20:28
This just shows how many question marks still surround the new legislation. Previous two posts assume the tax will be billed separately after the visit to the owner of the a/c. My initial thought would be that the pilot pays upon leaving, with the local airfield office easily calculating no of days on Italian soil, but I now clearly see that there are different options.

Well, one realises it's not obvious how they will actually bill this. To the owner retroactively? To the pilot before leaving? This leads to another set of questions: what if you go multiple times in one year but each time under 48h? If the time constraint relates to total time in Italy over the year, who will then keep track of this? Even if the 48h time limit is per stay, who keeps track of the exact time if one goes to small uncontrolled airfields? Some Sherlock Holmes digging out filed ATS flight plans or what?

I'm still very puzzled, and I guess I will continue to be for quite some time until there are some clarifications. And who knows when we will get those... Hopefully before late spring/summer for obvious reasons. If anyone obtains further details on this legislation, an update here would be appreciated.

peterh337
7th Feb 2012, 21:15
Also in most cases the airport does not have the owner's contact details.

With a G-reg they usually know about G-INFO and send the bill there. With an N-reg they tend to eventually dig out the trustee and send the bill there, and the trustee forwards it to the owner with a varyingly stroppy letter.

The whole business of airports chasing after money is fraught with problems. What doesn't help is that often the airport doesn't manage to make contact until months later, by which time the pilot has chucked the records away. I had Caglieri (Sardinia) chase me for payment of landing fees, months after the trip there, and it was only because I keep airport receipts for at least a year that I was able to prove I had paid it. LaRochelle did the same once but I had to pay it twice because I no longer had the receipts.

Even if you very carefully leave your contact details with the airport staff, they will PROB99 lose them, or not pass them to whoever is chasing after you months later.

After a flight to Tempelhof I didn't get billed for some enroute charge which others got billed for and after that I put a lot of effort into extracting, from the German DFS, a written confirmation that nothing is owed, and I carry that in the boot.

You absolutely do not want to end up in a situation where Airport X, or Country X, thinks that you owe them money, because they might grab your plane next time you land there. So any ambiguity about this Italian business is a total no-no for travelling there. Unless you are a renter :E

patowalker
8th Feb 2012, 06:45
I have not seen anything to indicate airport authorities or airfield owners will be responsible for collecting the tax. This is obviously the way visitors are expected to pay, but ensuring they do is another matter:

An alternative to payment by (form) F24 is forseen for those persons unable to pay with this model: payment may also be made through a bank in Euros in favor of Bilancio dello Stato al Capo 8 – Capitolo 1223. The transfer must refer to BIC: BITAITRRENT, the reason for transfer: data of the person liable to pay tax, identification of the aircraft (nationality and registration marks), the tax code and the reference period and finally the number IBAN - IT35 Z010 0003 2453 4800 8122 300.

flyingfemme
8th Feb 2012, 08:25
The short answer is CBA. I was looking forward to visiting Italy but there are plenty of other places - easier and cheaper to use.
I'll do my shopping elsewhere as well......

patowalker
8th Feb 2012, 08:59
"reason for transfer" must be "extorsione" :)

dublinpilot
8th Feb 2012, 11:08
Airfield owners can't be responsible for collection of the tax. It's simply not possible without huge fences and 24 hour access control, to stop anyone entering an airfield and flying out. Fine for large international airports, but totally impossible for grass strips and small airports.

Most likely when you pay, you will be given a receipt that you've paid for a year or whatever shorter period may be allowed.

As Peter says, the danger is when you fly in next time with an unpaid (or suspected unpaid bill) from an earlier visit. When you fly across borders, you file a flight plan. It wouldn't be a big job to have flight plans containing reg's of suspected defaulters routed to customs. Then all they have to do is turn up at the appropriate airport on the day and time in question and impound your aircraft. You've told them when and where you're going to be ;)

Even if you don't owe them anything it would be a nightmare if this happened on a Friday afternoon, and customs admin are closed until Monday, and you were just passing through enrote to somewhere else.

AfricanEagle
8th Feb 2012, 13:13
AOPA Italy has requested further details to the Italian goverment regarding payment (who, how, how much, when).

patowalker
8th Feb 2012, 14:39
Most likely when you pay, you will be given a receipt that you've paid for a year or whatever shorter period may be allowed.

Foreign registered PtF aircraft visiting Belgium are charged 89 euros for a permit that is valid for 30 days in the year. You send in the application and the permit comes back with the bill. Requires advance planning, but quite painless.

Jan Olieslagers
8th Feb 2012, 14:49
Without knowing the exact definition of a PtF, I don't think there is an equivalent in Belgium. I think you might be referring to the Belgian ULM ruling.

patowalker
8th Feb 2012, 16:45
Jan,

The ULM ruling, as you call it, extends well beyond ULMs.

PtF = Permit to Fly = not covered by a Certificate of Airworthiness

http://www.fed-ulm.be/common/pdf/AR%20survol.pdf

Jan Olieslagers
8th Feb 2012, 17:56
Seems like you're absolutely right, Patowalker. Though it is hard to be pushed into my very own legislation by a foreigner...
I think I was looking at it from a local pov, as I read it it excludes certified aircraft so that HERE it applies to microlights only... and to homebuilts perhaps, but these have become so very rare that it's easy to forget them.

Grassfield
8th Feb 2012, 18:58
I agree that smaller fields will have problems collecting this new infamous tax and that the last thing one wants is the Italian revenue chasing you for money since they will sooner or later find the owner and/or there will be a very nasty surprise for the next one visiting the country in the same a/c... 'That's bizarre, why is there now concrete slabs around the a/c now that I want to fly out of here....' :ugh:

But there is a very simple solution to this: a CLEAR clarification of how this law will work in practice. I really hope Italian AOPA get the answers they've been asking for, and that's before the touring season starts. Then each one can decide and plan if one wants to go to Italy (and face the predictable charges) or use another destination.

peterh337
8th Feb 2012, 19:18
a CLEAR clarification of how this law will work in practiceIn Italy?

:)

One needs to get one's head around the sheer unbelievable stupidity of this proposal, first.

Jan Olieslagers
8th Feb 2012, 19:23
I really hope Italian AOPA get the answers

Well, to each her/his own. I sincerely hope (and fairly trust) they never will. Leaving everything as is.

Grassfield
8th Feb 2012, 21:19
I totally agree that this is utter madness, complete bollox, really incomprehensible given the 'coarseness' of this proposed legislation. I can understand that Italy tries to increase it's taxbase in every way, but why not going after the 'big fish in the pond' rather than the small fish, which will of course have repercussions on the entire GA value chain in Italy.

But as someone mentioned in an earlier post, apparently this is now the Law in Italy (still with BIG question marks around implementation and enforcement), and therefore some clarity from Italy would be welcome... However, I'm the first one to hope this thing never gets implemented due to all the issues...

AfricanEagle
8th Feb 2012, 22:30
In the Italian general opinion an aeroplane is a luxuary private business jet.

Even the bloody politicians believe so. So they thought that taxing aeroplanes would earn 85 million revenue.

Reality is that all business jets are registered under commercial flying operations so are exempt from tax. That leaves only 1000 real private aeropanes, helicopters, gliders, experimentals and homebuilts - average value 50,000 euro - (and only six private really luxuary aircraft) that will pay tax for the grand actual total of 3.5 million.

Then an intellectually challenged member of parliament thought that italian aircraft owners would move Italian registrations to foreign registrations to not pay tax and added the 48 hour foreign tax.

This has caused such a mess that none of the authotities now know how to deal with the situation and are not answereing enquiries because they cannot explain the cock up.

Apologies for my language, but as an Italian, I am totally pissed off at having to pay a tax based on weight and not on value or age (a 1978 C172 pays as much as a brand new one) and ******* mad that real foreign pilots will not be coming to Italy any more.

A very unhappy Eagle

asyncio
9th Feb 2012, 07:01
They seem to be getting pretty serious about the equivalent car and yacht tax
Italy Police Pursue Ferraris to Nab Tax Evaders - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-08/italy-police-pursue-ferraris-to-nab-tax-evaders.html)
So I guess they'll be employing a similar strategry when it comes to aircraft.

peterh337
9th Feb 2012, 07:01
Like Greece, they cannot go after the big fish because the big fish are well connected.

patowalker
9th Feb 2012, 07:37
They seem to be getting pretty serious about the equivalent car and yacht tax

The tax authorities will use the data to check if the cars’ owners had declared enough income -- and of course paid the right amount of income taxes -- to justify their lifestyles.

This has nothing to do with the new tax on luxury cars and yatchs, which are not due yet.

One needs to get one's head around the sheer unbelievable stupidity of this proposal, first.

Unfortunately, it is not a proposal, it is law.

SergeD
9th Feb 2012, 09:39
This is totally mad. In France this kind of idea would last a few weeks and then it would be quietly gone.

Jan Olieslagers
9th Feb 2012, 10:01
And I am expecting the exact same thing in Italy, only perhaps with a bit more of drama.

Jan Olieslagers
11th Feb 2012, 23:37
[/URL][url]http://www.clubvoloalmare.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/notax_en1.jpg (http://www.ulforum.de/ultraleicht/bilder/bild-3638.html)