Spitting on a Soldier's Grave

[ORAC]

Just listened to a piece on this on R4 this morning. The author is also the campaigner for those involved to receive a full pardon from the Irish government, which seems to be on the point of success.

Not only were those involved court martialled and convicted in their absence without trial, the law passed banned them from employment in the country for 7 years, driving many into exile, but it made their children liable for arrest and detention where the were used as unpaid labour and suffered sexual abuse.

Spitting on a Soldier's Grave (http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=1234)

R4 interview in August: Today Programme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9555000/9555123.stm)

Upcoming programme on R4 "Face the Facts" on 4th January at 1230PM: The Disowned Army (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9)

Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) (http://lisburn.com/information/news-2011/irish-soldiers-pardons-campaign.html)

A petition was launched outside Dail Eireann (Parliament), on 30 June 2011, calling for pardons for Irish Defence Force personnel who allegedly deserted the Irish Army during World War Two. These men joined the (British) Navy and RAF, and the British Army, including Special Forces, to fight fascism. But after the war they were subjected to a kangaroo court-martial, en masse, and in absentia, via Emergency Power Order (362) introduced by the Irish government. Many of these brave men, who were unjustly convicted, are at rest in various battlefields across the world. They died fighting the Nazis and fascists, from North Africa to Italy, Kohima to Normandy, and through France, Holland, Belgium and the liberation of the concentration camps in Germany. The survivors, who returned to Ireland, were treated with utter contempt by the DeValera government. And, unbelievable as it sounds, even the dead were publicly vilified and banned from employment, along with the survivors.

My good friend, and fellow ex British serviceman, Robert Widders wrote an excellent book about this, Spitting on a Soldiers Grave. It reveals a story that has been kept secret for over half a century. And it is one of the most shocking incidences of injustice targeted at service personnel, post World War Two, that I have come across. Hence the recent launch of the Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2). Even the soldiers 'Shot at Dawn' during WW1 had a chance to defend themselves, albeit summary. Yet the Irish WW2 veterans were condemned without any trial. And, in some cases, the Irish government even imprisoned (and abused) their children.

We are calling upon organisations and individuals to support the objectives of the Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2). We believe that we owe the few elderly survivors a debt of honour. You are invited to contact Robert Widders in the UK (author of Spitting on a Soldiers Grave) and to view our website online for further information, and then make an informed decision. Robert can be contacted at his email address [email protected]

The Irish government are now considering the issues. Hopefully they have the political capacity, wisdom and compassion, to revoke this legislation or use some other mechanism to re-instate and pardon these men who fought Nazi terrorism on our behalf. We trust you agree - will you help us by publicising the issues

Peter Mulvany Coordinator Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign WW2 (http://www.forthesakeofexample.com)

Note: The 4983 alleged deserters in the list are mainly from Ireland. But hundreds have addresses in Northern Ireland and mainland UK.

email [email protected]
Telephone = 00353872769707
website = Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign WW2 (http://www.forthesakeofexample.com)

Ulster Star
17/07/2011

[sitigeltfel]

Let nobody forget that their President, Eamon de Valera, formally gave his condolences to the German people upon the death of Adolph Hitler.

[Tankertrashnav]

A very creditable campaign. This was a shameful period in Ireland's history. The actions of de Valera's state were in contrast to the courage of a large number of its citizens, whose reward for their courage in joining the fight against fascism was the disgraceful treatment described above.

There has been a shift in Irish attitudes in recent years, with more attention being given to war memorials and remembrance in general. As someone of Irish ancestry (my grandparents moved from Mullingar to Scotland in the early 20th century), I would like to see this stain removed from Ireland's record.

[BOAC]

How can this have gone so unremarked by the mainstream media for this long?

How a country treats those it considers to be 'traitors' of course is largely their choice, but to use this as yet another thinly disguised opportunity to abuse yet more children (those of these people) is just outrageous. What a pitiful 'culture' it is in that country.

[Chugalug2]

What you say is true, BOAC, but I would caution against stone throwing from inside our particular greenhouse. Bomber Command is only now about to get the National Memorial that its contribution to victory, at such dreadful cost over the very same Fascists, called for in the 1940's never mind the 2010's. And that mainly thanks to a dying musician rather than a grateful national leadership! BC's commander was slighted, both in life and death, and his aircrew got just the same campaign medal after D-Day as those in the rear Army echelons. On the whole that anti Bomber Campaign bias was top down, rather than the reverse. I would suggest that, in defence of the Irish population, much the same applied in their case.

[BOAC]

Chug - my comment was about child abuse? I'm not aware of any BC crew's children being arrested and placed in 'prison camps'?How a country treats those it considers to be 'traitors' of course is largely their choice

[Chugalug2]

Sorry, point taken BOAC, missed that. I agree that child abuse is indeed to be condemned wherever it occurs. If it is permitted or facilitated by institutional means it is even more contemptible, if that be possible.

[ORAC]

A little more digging........

Days In The Life (http://the-knitter.********.com/2005/08/hitler-de-valera.html)

Mr Walsh.......discovered an extraordinary secret buried in the public record office in Kew, West London, which dates from the time of the Dublin legislation allowing children to be committed to industrial schools. The law was introduced in 1941 when Britain was nearly on its knees after Germany had overrun mainland Europe and Ireland was a neutral country.

At that time some 50,000 Irish men and women had crossed the border and joined British forces fighting the Germans. In particular some 4,000 servicemen had deserted the Irish Free Army to fight on the British side. These "deserters" were regarded with particular contempt by Eamon de Valera, the Irish Taoiseach, whose administration was to pass a law in 1945 to prevent any of them getting jobs with the state for seven years. Many of the children of these "deserter" soldiers were put into care on the grounds that they had been abandoned by their fathers. The Kew documents contain correspondence between officials in Dublin and the British War Office and the Admiralty. The Irish government demanded that the family allowance that would have been paid to the Irish servicemen if their children had not been committed should be handed over to the Industrial Schools. Britain initially refused but the Irish were persistent, and Frederick Boland, a senior official who worked closely with De Valera, wrote increasingly trenchant letters.

In one he couples the demand with the comment: "There is the further incidental consideration that in not a few of these cases the lack of parental control to which the committal of the children is due is attributable to the absence of the fathers with your forces." By the end of the war Britain had capitulated and paid up. It then became clear, according to Mr Walsh, that the Irish had the servicemen's numbers and knew who was serving with the British. Mr Walsh said: "It suggests that if Dublin could supply the roll numbers of the troops involved - rather than the other way round - there was surveillance of the families at the time. The fact that the public record office is keeping secret some other files for up to 100 years on the connection between neutral Ireland and the Nazis suggests that more will come out."..........

Not Much Time To Right This Grave Injustice (http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/004277.html)

...................The government of the day was condemned in the Dáil by the opposition party, Fine Gael. They argued, with some justification, that the government’s legislation was illegal. It had been framed as an Emergency Powers Act after the end of the Emergency. Fine Gael deputy leader, Dr. Thomas F. O’Higgins, described the government’s action as “brutal, unchristian and inhuman, stimulated by malice, seething with hatred, and oozing with venom.”

But the government’s actions were even more mean-spirited and vindictive than the opposition realized. Hundreds of these men had died long before they were publicly vilified and banned from employment. Men like Joseph Mullally would never cheat the dole queue and get a job with the council. He had already died on D-Day, June 6, 1944, fighting the Nazis on the beaches of Normandy – a year before his Kangaroo court martial.

As well as punishing the soldiers, the government also punished their children. In many cases the children were sentenced in courts of law, criminalized, and imprisoned. Now in fairness, even though the government’s response to those deserters was vindictive and unconstitutional, we can at least understand that they had to do something.

But what is beyond all understanding is the state-sponsored abuse of soldiers’ children. It is a grim irony that while Irish soldiers were amongst the men liberating Belsen concentration camp, the Irish government was running its own camps, set up to provide care for children whom the Irish state arrested and then handed over to the religious orders.

The regime in these camps – euphemistically called industrial schools – was characterized by physical and sexual abuse. Malnutrition and denial of medical treatment was the norm.

And in some of the more remote country locations children were even hired out to farmers to work in the fields as virtual slaves. Sometimes children’s names were replaced with numbers. I have a document in front of me now, the neatly written column of names, starting with Sinead D ***, better known as 652 – her camp number. But three names on that list have the designation “SS.” And “SS”, in the twisted lingua of the industrial schools, indicates the child of a soldier, one to be given “special treatment.”

Mary G*** was one of those children who received the benefits of special treatment. She was incarcerated in Goldenbridge (Dublin) at the age of two, as her admission papers state, “with her charge and sentence of detention,” until the age of 14. Mary was kept in Goldenbridge (a convict refuge originally built in 1855) for over a decade and only allowed out for one day every year. Her father, a soldier, wrote increasingly desperate letters to his young child throughout the Second World War, letters the Sisters of Mercy withheld from her for over half a century.

It’s hard to imagine the feelings of a little girl, frightened, alone, living a life of constant fear of the beatings that were a routine part of her day. She told me she wondered why her daddy never wrote to her. And what anguish must her father have felt. How does a soldier feel facing combat and possible death, waiting for a letter from his little girl – a letter that never comes.

When this was brought into the public domain in my book, “Spitting On A Soldier’s Grave,” Irish people responded with a mixture of surprise and anger. “That’s dreadful, I never heard of that before” was a typical comment. And there were many calls for restorative justice for the so-called deserters.............

[BOAC]

?Thank you? Orac - I had not seen the full item, but had, of course, suspected that the Catholic church would be involved yet again. 'Sisters of Mercy' indeed. What a farce. 'Society of perverts' would be more apt.

[Just a spotter]

With regard to the reporting on BBC News of this piece, just to correct a couple of factual errors.

1) the BBC News article stated that the government of Ireland chose to be neutral. That is inaccurate. In fact it is the Constitution of Ireland that imposed neutrality on the State.

2) The BBC News article repeatedly referred to "the Republic of Ireland". No such country exists, nor has ever existed. The term is a description of Ireland (the State, not the island) and didn't come into existence until The Republic of Ireland Act (1948).

While, personally, I have every sympathy for those who stepped forward and fought fascism (whether Hitler, Franco or anyone else), and do believe that their action and sacrifice should be acknowledged, in this case the fact of the matter is that members of the armed forces of one state deserted their post and went to fight for another sovereign. If members of the British Army had deserted their posts in Afghanistan, the UK or elsewhere to take up the fight against Gadaffi, how should they have been treated?


JAS

[ORAC]

If members of the British Army had deserted their posts in Afghanistan, the UK or elsewhere to take up the fight against Gadaffi, how should they have been treated? Well, as a minimum, they'd have their day in court with a trial with representation. And their children wouldn't have been arrested and detained.

Fine Gael deputy leader, Dr. Thomas F. O’Higgins, described the government’s action as “brutal, unchristian and inhuman, stimulated by malice, seething with hatred, and oozing with venom.”

I presume you disagree? :hmm:

[BOAC]

If members of the British Army had deserted their posts in Afghanistan, the UK or elsewhere to take up the fight against Gadaffi, how should they have been treated? - difficult to draw a parallel there, as the UK had not declared itself 'neutral' in the Gadaffi affair. To add to Orac's post - I think that desertion from a war zone can still 'technically' be punishable by death via the 'due process', so if someone 'defected' in a war zone I guess that would apply. 'Defection' by a member of the Armed Forces outside a war zone would be punishable by imprisonment. As Orac says, though, their children would not be taken away to be abused by 'pseudo religious' folk (or anyone, hopefully).

[Training Risky]

in this case the fact of the matter is that members of the armed forces of one state deserted their post and went to fight for another sovereign. If members of the British Army had deserted their posts in Afghanistan, the UK or elsewhere to take up the fight against Gadaffi, how should they have been treated?



That is a very simplistic and disingenuous view that tries to establish equivalence between the sovereignty of the Irish Free State and that of the UK.

To analyse your example, compare how long Elizabeth II and her predecessors have been sovereign in the UK (centuries) to the age of the new Free State in 1939. Let's say 1922 to 1939 = a mere 17 years!!!

Maybe professional Irish soldiers who had done more than 17 years in 1939 had more loyalty to a King to which they had sworn an oath than a so called Free State and therefore had more cause to desert than most:mad:

[racedo]

Lets look on it dispassionately while others rant.....

Those who deserted a countrys army are Court martialled irrespective of who they fought for............. don't remember Allied govts having a sympathethic view of any who deserted their side in WW2 and fought on German side.

I notice the OP uses the word "Alledged" in looking at desertion, its pretty black and white really, you either did or didn't.

Happy to be proven wrong but we didn't treat deserters in WW2 well, seem to remember the Cossacks, Soldiers and Civilians getting handed over for execution by the USSR.

The banishment from public employment for a period of 7 years is not a surprise given the taxpayers don't wish to fund people who have fought for another state in a war. Over here UK public bodies acted similarly against Conscientious Objectors who were dismissed by councils and private employers so there is consistency of treatment as much as we don't wish to believe it.

The locking up of Children in what was called "Industrial schools" is and will always be an abonimation but given many children were abandoned in a poor country which had bugger all there was not a lot of options. We sent them to the colonies in the 40's / 50's and 60's, stealing them from their parents but seems we started this in sending "Vagrant children" to the Virginia colonies in 1618 and continued this practice up to 1967 in sending to Australia. What is our excuse ?

As a somewhat student of Irish history I would be wary of attempting to see this through 21st Century eyes......

Given Ireland had Independence for 17 years when WW2 started and an economic war in 1930's had impoverished an already poor country then it is not surprising the stance taken by the Govt of the day. UK didn't exactly part on good terms so why would be expect anything to have changed in 1939 ?

Reality is they were neutral in our favour and supplied us with lots of food that we needed. The overwhelming majority of the people in Irish elections voted for parties that supported that neutrality. So can't on one hand say we fighting for democracy and then abuse those who decide democratically what is best for them.

Irish Free State made its position clear at start of the war and maintained it even when it could have gained in joining in at last minute like quite a few countries. They kept that neutral position and somehow think the hiding of links between our Govt and Irish Free state are more to do with how much they assisted us after all Irish state has nothing to lose post war in what UK issues from its records has it ?

DeValera gave his condolences to German legation on death of leader of Germany but he also did exactly the same at the US embassy on the death of President Roosevelt ensuring he acted impartially irrespective of the abuse he knew he would receive.

[glojo]

My thoughts here are we are lighting the touch paper of a very sensitive issue and it will not be long before we start reading about the conduct of 'x' country compared to that of 'y'.

I have dozens of objections to numerous acts deeds or otherwise committed by one country against another and Great Britain is possibly not the perfect country we all might like to believe, but voicing our objections on a public forum is sadly an act that may well have a very predictable ending.

Can we all not leave the past where it belongs and spare a private thought for those we a judge to be a victim? please :uhoh:

A wet John from sunny Torquay

[Just a spotter]

@ORAC

I fully agree with the sentiment you posted. I'm no supporter of the position taken by De Valera on many issues. The actions of the State in this and many other issues in its short existence have been, IMHO at best, delinquent, and the hand of De Valera and indeed, latterly that of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid steered the history of this country in some very dark and sinister ways.

My post wasn’t an attempt to support the position, merely to add some perspective. Keep in mind that by 1939, Irish men had fought and died in the first world war as members of the British Army, as Ireland was still part of the UK at the time, seen their capital levelled by that same army in response to a relatively small and poorly organised armed insurrection (plenty of historical photographs of the destruction laid on the centre of Dublin following shelling to end the 1916 Easter Rising) and its leaders executed, fought a war of independence on the island which was followed by a civil war that divided families, all before the end of the 1920’s. By the late 1930’s there was little support to enter what at the time was seen as someone-elses war. Add to that a fear that during WWII Britain would invade to secure use of the ports on the Atlantic coast and you can perhaps see why there was little support at the time for those who ‘took the kings shilling’.

By today’s standards the actions of the State were incredibly harsh, but there was little outcry at the time.


@TR

I don’t think the duration of a State’s history is a determinant of the fidelity its citizens owe to it. The British dominion that was the Irish Free State ceased to exist in 1937, being replaced with the current sovereign State, namely, Ireland. The UK as it is currently constituted has existed since 1922.

Certainly there may have been members of the Irish armed forces in 1939 who were formerly members of the British regiments in Ireland and elsewhere. Many will have fought on one side or the other in the Irish Civil War post the creation of Free State ("so called" or not). Either way, I doubt many would have questioned the loyalty of any of them to what they saw as their country.


Overall, the actions have to been seen in their historical context. Personally, I do believe that the punishment was far in excess of what was warranted by the 'crime'.



JAS

[Training Risky]

I don’t think the duration of a State’s history is a determinant of the fidelity its citizens owe to it.

That may be what you think, but thousands of loyal Irishmen disagreed with you.

2) The BBC News article repeatedly referred to "the Republic of Ireland". No such country exists, nor has ever existed.

In the UK the Ireland Act 1949 provided that "Republic of Ireland" is the official name of the state under UK law. So there.

[Tankertrashnav]

Whatever the legal definition of a deserter, I think in most people's minds the term means someone who is a member of an armed force who flees from that force, either to ensure their own safety, or perhaps to fight for the enemy for idealogical reasons.

To describe those who absented themselves from the armed forces of a neutral Ireland in order to go and actually fight against the Axis as deserters is tantamount to sophistry. They were neither displaying cowardice nor were they fighting for their country's enemies, indeed in de Valera's neutral state, the country in theory had no enemies.

That so many of his countrymen saw things differently is to their credit and to his eternal shame.

[Just a spotter]

2) The BBC News article repeatedly referred to "the Republic of Ireland". No such country exists, nor has ever existed. In the UK the Ireland Act 1949 provided that "Republic of Ireland" is the official name of the state under UK law. So there.

Well now, at the risk of serious thread creep, I wasn't aware that the UK's 1949 act had applied a name to the country that was different to it's official titile and that which is internationally recognised.

From the Irish Constitution
Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

Amazing what you pick up on PPRuNe these days!

;)

JAS

[Fareastdriver]

The name 'Republic of Ireland' only applies in English law. To recognise it as 'Ireland' would infer that Northern Ireland is part of it and not part of the United Kingdom. Other countries can call it what they like.

[racedo]

Whatever the legal definition of a deserter, I think in most people's minds the term means someone who is a member of an armed force who flees from that force, either to ensure their own safety, or perhaps to fight for the enemy for idealogical reasons.

To describe those who absented themselves from the armed forces of a neutral Ireland in order to go and actually fight against the Axis as deserters is tantamount to sophistry.

Nope it is the legal term and claiming its not desertion because it benefits one side rather than the other is playing semantics. Churchill wanted to invade Ireland and take back the ports it gave back in 1938...........Irish Govt was as worried about UK invasion as it was of German.

Irish Govt executed IRA members and locked many members up to make sure they couldn't become a Nazi support network.................so much for Irish Govt being pro German.

Where as Allied forces were treated a hell of a lot more leniently and as the war drew on many got released pretty soon after landing where as Germans were locked up for the duration.

[parabellum]

Where as Allied forces were treated a hell of a lot more leniently and as the war drew on many got released pretty soon after landing where as Germans were locked up for the duration


According to a recent article published here in Oz, relating to a TV programme I missed, some 534 allied airmen were detained in The Republic of Ireland, most were released in May 1945. Some escaped to the North due to lax security and possible collusion as well as a friendly public.

The brutal way in which the De Valera administration dealt with soldiers and their families, who deserted the Irish Army to fight for the British doesn't blend easily, for me, with the notion that Irish neutrality was biased to wards the British.

[alisoncc]

Attempting to look at historical events through modern eyes is an exercise in futility. One of our broadcasters - the ABC in conjunction with the BBC, did a marvellous documentary called "The Leaving of Liverpool" about the thousands of English children who were "Transported" to Australia, Canada and South Africa post WWII. Many of whom had been evacuated and then never reclaimed as their whereabouts had been lost. So they became Orphans, taken in by the likes of Dr Barnadoes who then shipped them out to religious penal colonies. It happened.

[ORAC]

And both the British (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=government%20apology%20children%20australia&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEoQtwIwBg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2F8531664.stm&ei=WxoAT4_rDIWXhQeSzuWpDQ&usg=AFQjCNHm075KTwXoElyY4ujElRgtZpN-gQ) and Australian (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=government%20apology%20children%20australia&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Fau straliaandthepacific%2Faustralia%2F6578427%2FAustralian-apology-to-British-child-migrants-speech-in-full.html&ei=WxoAT4_rDIWXhQeSzuWpDQ&usg=AFQjCNGaNf4kJQV1mdNABYAj--qdn4OcHg) governments apologised.

Hopefully the Irish government will follow the example.

[Finningley Boy]

And that mainly thanks to a dying musician rather than a grateful national leadership! BC's commander was slighted, both in life and death, and his aircrew got just the same campaign medal after D-Day as those in the rear Army echelons. On the whole that anti Bomber Campaign bias was top down, rather than the reverse. I would suggest that, in defence of the Irish population, much the same applied in their case.

On the question of a Bomber Command Campaign medal, was not the Aircrew Europe Star intended to cover all air operations flown from UK Bases?

All WWII campaign medals were designated by region of conflict, not unit. There was, however, the one small exception, this was the clasp "Battle of Britain" which is worn on the ribbon of the 1939-1945 Star. Perhaps this is what everyone has been unhappy about, maybe a clasp "Bomber Command" should have been issued to be worn on the same ribbon. I also uncovered some documentation and minutes, some years ago, at the National Archives, apparently Lord Sholto Douglas and Sir Arthur Harris were both engaged in trying to get H.M. Government to recognise R.A.F. groundcrew of the operational commands with a campaign star and also therefore by default, the 39-45 star. H.M. Forces personnel, regardless of their endeavours, who did not serve outside Great Britain or British dominions received no campaign stars at all.:ouch:

FB:)

[Tankertrashnav]

...and his aircrew got just the same campaign medal after D-Day as those in the rear Army echelons.



On the question of a Bomber Command Campaign medal, was not the Aircrew Europe Star intended to cover all air operations flown from UK Bases?


Chugalug is actually correct, Finningley Boy. The France and Germany Star replaced the Aircrew Europe Star for ops flown from 6th June 1944 on. However to describe it as the medal awarded to army rear echelons is to ignore the fact that it was also awarded to British and Commonwealth soldiers who fought their way from the beaches of Normandy to Berlin and who dropped and fought at Arnhem and on the Rhine crossing. Tens of thousands of them were killed or wounded in the process, so there is no question of the France and Germany Star being an inferior medal

Trying to get back on thread, actually the Irish issued a rather interesting series of medals for service during "the emergency" as the unpleasantless elsewhere was called. One was for the Irish Mercantile Marine, which in spite of its neutrality still lost many ships sunk at German hands with attendant loss of life. Because of the reduced danger of their being torpedoed, Irish merchant vessels often stopped to pick up survivors of sunken ships and saved hundreds of allied lives in the process. There is a memorial plaque to Irish merchant seamen lost at sea 1939-45 in the National Arboretum in Staffordshire.

[Chugalug2]

Thanks for the confirmation, and for the admonishment, ttn. ;-) In no way do I wish to belittle the bravery or duty done in the Army's Land Campaign as it fought its way from Normandy to Germany. That is the point, though. It was a separate campaign to the Bombing Campaign, which should have had its own Campaign Star from the start. The fact that it did not, that all air operations over Europe qualified for the Aircrew Europe Star before D-Day, meant that afterwards it shared the France Germany Star with those in direct tactical support of the Army's advance in their land campaign. Harris was wrong to want a "Bomber Command Medal", that I'll concede, but his aircrew should have received a "Bombing Campaign Star" (or some such) for the 1939-45 Strategic Bombing Campaign that cost them so dear.
To try to desperately haul myself back on board the OP's thread, I have never understood the moral superiority often expressed by those who espoused neutrality in WW2. Here we had the choice of either fighting dictatorships that invaded and brutally repressed their neighbours, and then threatening their neighbours in turn, or of simply sitting on the sidelines and seeing how things turned out. Quite well, it would seem, for most whose neutrality survived the war. Certainly Sweden and Switzerland never looked back, though Portugal and Ireland seemed to have had little to offer the combatants other than intrigue. Perhaps Franco's Spain can be said to have made best use of the opportunities offered, though I wouldn't consider that any of these countries elevated neutrality to a moral high ground, rather they hoped that one side or the other would prevail, but were not betting their shirts. Expedient? Pragmatic? Sure. Morally superior? Hardly.

[teeteringhead]

in this case the fact of the matter is that members of the armed forces of one state deserted their post and went to fight for another sovereign ... not at all justaspotter and others.

The 26 Counties (or whatever you wish to call it) remained a member of the Commonwealth until 1949, so His Majesty retained some duties/responsibilities.

[Finningley Boy]

Sorry to jump back to WWII medals again, but I'm currently watching 633 Sqn on ITV4 + i've noticed an awful lot of the chaps sporting 39-45 ribbons, when its meant to be 1944? I undrstand that campaign stars, save the Africa Star, didn't appear until after the war when the medals and awards review boardboard, or whatever they're called, decided what merited what. I often wonder who advises on such detail in these films, they must ignore what they're being told sometimes and just do their own thing. Harumph!!:(

FB:)

[Tankertrashnav]

Chugalug, I must say I agree that I could never see the logic of cutting off the qualification period for both the ACE and Atlantic Stars at D Day, but for good or ill nothing is going to alter it now.

Interesting point about Irish membership of the Commonwealth, teeteringhead. Does that mean that the king was the Irish head of state during the war?

Finningly Boy, I'm going to have to start charging you for educating you about WW2 medals ;). The 1939-45 Star started life as the 1939-43 Star, and the ribbon (but not the medal itself) was issued for wear from 1943 on. I have a photo somewhere of my father wearing it alongside the Africa Star ribbon sometime in 1943 or 44. You do get a lot of mistakes in films I agree, ribbons in the wrong order, upside down, etc, but in this case they seemed to be ok, other than rather too many DFCs and AFCs than you'd expect to find.

[Finningley Boy]

Thanks for the info Tankertrashnav, I stand corrected. Cliff Robertson has just disobeyed a direct order to abort the mission, by the way!:ok:

FB:)

[teeteringhead]

Does that mean that the king was the Irish head of state during the war? .... I think not TTN, as they had their own pres, the aforementioned Mr DeValera.

So I'm unsure (and will try and find out definitively) what part the King would have to play as Head of Commonwealth if not of State. After all, Auntie Betty is Head of a Commonwealth which includes some countries (firstly India) with their own Pres .....:confused: More research needed!

[edited to add the further research!]

The Executive Authority (External Relations) Act 1936 of the Republic of Ireland contains the following:
3.—(1) It is hereby declared and enacted that, so long as Saorstát Eireann is associated with the following nations, that is to say, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand, and South Africa, and so long as the king recognised by those nations as the symbol of their co-operation continues to act on behalf of each of those nations (on the advice of the several Governments thereof) for the purposes of the appointment of diplomatic and consular representatives and the conclusion of international agreements, the king so recognised may, and is hereby authorised to, act on behalf of Saorstát Eireann for the like purposes as and when advised by the Executive Council so to do.
This Act was not repealed (and so was de jure still valid) until it was specifically so in the first section of the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948.
1.—The Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936 (No. 58 of 1936), is hereby repealed. So under the terms of the 1936 Act he was still King throughout the War . Which makes the Irish actions even more reprehensible and quite possibly illegal!

Both Acts referenced from the Irish Attorney General's Irish Statute Book Website! (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1948/en/act/pub/0022/sec0001.html#zza22y1948s2)

Perhaps I shouldn't get out more! :ok:

[parabellum]

You do get a lot of mistakes in films I agree, ribbons in the wrong order, upside down, etc,


Not sure if it still is but it used to be an offence to wear the King's/Queens uniform on stage, my father was quite involved in the theatre at one time, (fifties), they would overcome this by taking the medal ribbon bar and inverting it, possibly the same law applies to films? Deliberate errors?

[racedo]

Quote:
Does that mean that the king was the Irish head of state during the war?
.... I think not TTN, as they had their own pres, the aforementioned Mr DeValera.

Er No

President of Ireland from 1938 to 1945 was Dr Douglas Hyde

So under the terms of the 1936 Act he was still King throughout the War . Which makes the Irish actions even more reprehensible and quite possibly illegal!

Illegal to whom ?

As the Parliment of Ireland had voted to remain neutral and not get involved then how was it illegal ?

[racedo]

To try to desperately haul myself back on board the OP's thread, I have never understood the moral superiority often expressed by those who espoused neutrality in WW2. Here we had the choice of either fighting dictatorships that invaded and brutally repressed their neighbours, and then threatening their neighbours in turn, or of simply sitting on the sidelines and seeing how things turned out. Quite well, it would seem, for most whose neutrality survived the war. Certainly Sweden and Switzerland never looked back, though Portugal and Ireland seemed to have had little to offer the combatants other than intrigue. Perhaps Franco's Spain can be said to have made best use of the opportunities offered, though I wouldn't consider that any of these countries elevated neutrality to a moral high ground, rather they hoped that one side or the other would prevail, but were not betting their shirts. Expedient? Pragmatic? Sure. Morally superior? Hardly.

Dunno why you would see neutrality as being morally superior.........somehow the neutral countries didn't.

Spain had just come through a vicious civil war with in excess of 500,000 people killed,
Portugal has had 30 plus years of instability with coups and dictatorship with mass poverty
Ireland had come through a vicious War of Independence with a country now at war with a country which had never invaded it and following that a Civil war still alive in peoples memories

Countries staying out of WW2 and remaining neutral were more concerned with their survival as nations rather than being part of YET another major war between Europe's great powers.

I use the word YET as the previous couple of centuries were full of wars and skirmishes between the major powers and the little countries always got penalised. Unfortunately in the 20th century man found a way to kill on a greater scale.

[Brian Abraham]

possibly the same law applies to films? Deliberate errors?I would say you are correct parabellum. Couple of nights ago watched a TV show (drama) involving RAN and all wore the ribbons on the wrong side. Obviously a deliberate error of which you speak.

[Dan Winterland]

Ireland remained a dominion of the UK until 1948. But whereas in WW1, where the dominions entered the war with Britain because an act of agression on one was considered an act against all, this was not the case in WW2.

De Valera was a pragmatist who had a difficult job leading the independant, but still very fractionised Ireland. He had tried to reign in the people in his governemnt who had wanted to side with the enemies of the British realising that Ireland's independance would be in jeopardy if the UK was invaded. In fact, it was quite apparent that Germany had no intentions of respecting Ireland's neutrality had the planned invasion of Britain been successful. Some of his actions such as signing Hitler's condolence book should be seen in the light of diplomatic relations.

In fact, despite relations with Nazi Germany, the Irish were more helpful to Britain than their neutrality would have normally demanded. The return of Allied airmen and seamen where Axis personnel were interned, the allowed use of Irish airspace and the positioning of Allied radars on Irish soil all demonstrate this.

Which makes the handling of the Irish Governemnt to these soldiers inexcusable. An apology should be given.

[A and C]

I can back Dan Winterland's post with eye witness evidence, a friend of mine's father lived in Dublin during the war and had seen British airmen being put on the boat back to the UK, most of these people were pleased to be going back for a second chance to fight, one to two he told me were physically put on the boat by the Irish authority's. Clearly a small minority saw the Irish republic as a danger free bolt hole in which to sit out the war.

[corsair]

Where to start?:ugh: I really have to nail a few errors and misrepresentations perpetrated here. It continues to surprise me how often wartime propaganda and rumour passes for fact even after this length of time.

First, to declare an interest. One of my uncles, possibly two fall into that category. One definitely deserted the Irish army and went to England. I don't know if he served in the British forces but he remained a little nervous that he might be arrested on his visits home. Another uncle was a member of the LDF (Home Guard) and left to join the RAF but failed the medical. I'd be interested in seeing the list to see if they're there.

What happened is a disgrace and should be redressed however late it is now.

TankertrashnavA very creditable campaign. This was a shameful period in Ireland's history. The actions of de Valera's state were in contrast to the courage of a large number of its citizens, Recommend you acquire a book called 'Guarding Neutral Ireland' by Michael Kennedy. A scholarly work which nails many of the myth surrounding Ireland's so called neutrality. How about a British naval attache accompanying the head of Irish military intelligence on an inspection tour of the Coast Watching service? Not very neutral. There are numerous examples.

Just a Spotter, get your facts right: In fact it is the Constitution of Ireland that imposed neutrality on the State.Absolutely untrue. There is nothing in the constitution about neutrality and there never will be. As things stand Ireland is currently not even neutral. Ireland is non aligned. There was even a attempt to join NATO after the war.

As for your pedantic reiteration, where's the roll eyes icon:rolleyes:, of the correct title of the country. It's unneccessary. We all know exactly what's meant. During the war it was Eire or the Irish Free State. Now it's Ireland but if you're British and want to be specific, Republic of Ireland. Get over it.

Irish men had fought and died in the first world war as members of the British Army, as Ireland was still part of the UK at the time, seen their capital levelled by that same army in response to a relatively small and poorly organised armed insurrection Dublin wasn't levelled and that's a matter of historical fact. The damage was localised and there's plenty of photos to prove that. I'm also sorry to see you denigrate the rebellion as merely 'small and poorly organised'.

Parabellum:According to a recent article published here in Oz, relating to a TV programme I missed, some 534 allied airmen were detained in The Republic of Ireland, most were released in May 1945. Some escaped to the North due to lax security and possible collusion as well as a friendly public.I think you'll find that it was May 1943 and all were released. In fact there never was an intention to intern Allied airmen but the Germans complained about unfair treatment and it became neccessary with the agreement of the British. It's a well known story but they weren't exactly locked up and most lived a full life of hunting, fishing, dancing and chasing girls and even studying in college. In reality many others were quietly conveyed to the border. There was even a case or two of aircraft being refuelled and allowed to continue. No US service personnel were interned. There was plenty of collusion even by the military.

Dan Winterland:the positioning of Allied radars on Irish soil all demonstrate this.Not true in fact but other than that you are correct.

To redress the balance somewhat, there were plenty of examples of favourable treatment of ex HM services people in business and the professions. Much of which even then was dominated by Anglo Irish Protestants. My Father's employer for example had a strict employment policy of hiring British ex servicemen, followed by Irish protestants and Irish Catholic ex service and eventually when all else failed Irish Catholics like my Dad. This was in Dublin by the way. This kind of thing was prevalent. Guinness only appointed it's first Catholic manager in the sixties.

Such was the reality of the times.

[Green Flash]

Should not be forgotten that had the Allies had not been aware of a particular weather observation from Black Sod point, John Stagg would not have given his advice and D-Day might have had an different outcome.

[racedo]

What happened is a disgrace and should be redressed however late it is now.

What happened was political reality, no different from the dismissal of Conscientious objectors over here by public bodies, not nice BUT existing voters likely required something.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but the danger is that everyone ends up apologising for things they never had any control over in the 1st place.

Has UK apologised for allowing Nazi's take Sudentenland and infamous piece of paper ? etc etc.

After a while the catch all of "lets apologise for everything" ends up being a mere sop with little feeling behind it but its a nice media event.

[Tinribs]

An aspect of the disloyalty, to Ireland or otherwise, of those soldiers joining the British Army which seems to have gone uncommented;

Many of those absconding in the early 1940s would have been born in about 1920 and thus would have been British by birth

This status earned all the Irish people special rights, my mother among them, allowing them to reside and work within Britain, although they did need a special identity card. Such rights were denied those born elswhere in Europe

Since they were Bitish by birth and had the special rights many would think they should defend the country granting them. Certainly if they wished to retain those special rights after the war, as my Mum did, they would think evidence wartime service might become a requirement and so it would be prudent to serve in some way and be able to prove it. What would be clearer than military service

[ORAC]

Mixed messages here....

Will Ireland forgive its soldiers of the King? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8992258/Will-Ireland-forgive-its-soldiers-of-the-King.html)

The Irish government has finally announced that it is giving active consideration to exonerating the thousands of Irish army deserters who joined the British Army during the Second World War.........

Sinn Fein to back pardons for 'deserters' who fought for Britain in World War II (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/sinn-fein-to-back-pardons-for-deserters-who-fought-for-britain-in-world-war-ii/story-e6frg6so-1226236308833)

A CAMPAIGN in Ireland to pardon 5000 men who deserted from the country's forces to fight for Britain in World War II is likely to be backed by Sinn Fein, the Republican party that sought Nazi support against the British.

It has emerged that Sinn Fein is ready to add its voice to calls in the Dail, the Irish Parliament, for a pardon. During the war, Irish Republicans said that they would welcome German invaders as "friends and liberators".

Johnathan O'Brien TD, Sinn Fein's justice spokesman, said that the party's position was still under review, but party officials spoke of the pardon as a matter of natural justice. "Of course these men should be pardoned," said a Sinn Fein spokesman. "These are old men who fought in a world war against fascism. They fought for a just cause. I don't imagine anyone would claim they shouldn't have the same rights as anybody else."

Military chiefs 'baffled' by BBC story about Army deserters (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/military-chiefs-baffled-by-bbc-story-about-army-deserters-2978928.html)


IRISH Army deserters who fought with the British during World War II are not currently being considered for a pardon.

The BBC had claimed yesterday that the Irish Government "would take action" on the matter in the coming months. But a statement from the Department of Defence contradicted this, saying Minister Alan Shatter was baffled by the story.

The minister has instead sought the advice of the Attorney General amid the campaign for the pardoning of an estimated 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted the Irish Army to fight with the Allies against Hitler.

But a final decision on the matter is not expected soon...........

[rmac]

Just as well that Sinn Fein didn't have to welcome the Germans as "Friends and Liberators" if their treatment of the Ukrainians who welcomed them on a similar basis is anything to go by.

I also suspect that the Waffen SS methods of putting down any attempts at self determination may have been a little more harsh than the British ones. At least the executions after the Easter uprising were not done summarily by hanging hundreds from lamp posts in the street.

[Avionker]

I wonder what the Sinn Fein position would have been if this subject had been raised 20 years ago?

Personally I welcome their response and am all for anything which improves the official relationship between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

[melmothtw]

It's interesting that Ireland is condemned for 'supporting' Hitler against the British, yet the Finns don't come in for the same treatment for doing the same in their struggle against Russia.

Both were small nations trying to cast off the shadow of a larger and overbearing neighbour by employing the philosphy of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'.

[Just a spotter]

It would be inaccurate to portray Ireland's position during WWII as 'supporting Hitler'. If anything, the Irish position was supportive of the Allies.

Allied aircraft were authorised to overfly Irish airspace, all be it in a restricted way. Allied air crew who were forced to land in Ireland were 'assisted' to the border with Northern Ireland. There were a number of Luftwaffe bombing raids on towns and cities in Ireland, including the raid of the night of 31st May 1941 against Dublin, known as the North Strand bombings, which claimed the lives of over 30 civilians and injured nearly 100 more. It is suggested that the raid was in retaliation for fire tenders from Dublin, Dundalk and Drogheda assisting the fire service of Belfast (in Northern Ireland) and surrounding areas following the "Belfast Blitz" of April '41.

The Irish government protested to the Nazi's over both the Belfast and Dublin raids.

JAS

[3starsonly]

Most of the Irish children, who were consigned to Ireland's Industrial Schools' System, on leaving found sanctuary in the UK - not just the children of those Irish 'deserters' who found themselves incarcerated in those abusive places. It should be noted that in the 1930s in Ireland there were more children in the Industrial Schools than were in care in the whole of the UK. These were the places, along with the Magdalen Asylums, that the Irish State used for those who it deemed were the outcasts of society; the people who didn't conform to the Roman Catholic ideology of those times.

The book Spitting on a Soldier's Grave (http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=1234) is a very important book in every regard.

[racedo]

It's interesting that Ireland is condemned for 'supporting' Hitler against the British,

Since when did Ireland support Hitler ?

FFS at least if you are going to comment on a thread like this please do some research.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

After a while the catch all of "lets apologise for everything" ends up being a mere sop with little feeling behind it but its a nice media event

How true, but we'll never learn.

[Tankertrashnav]

I think that one can draw a difference between a country apologising for historical wrongs, where both oppressors and victims are long dead, and the matter under discussion where many of those who were wronged are still alive. Apologising for the slave trade, Polynesian islanders apologising for eating missionaries etc is just silly - this isn't.

[paull]

Thread creep, but I met a Frenchman (now deceased) who jumped ship from the french navy and joined the british RN in WW2 . Had he accepted a lift to the UK and joined deGaulle he would be a hero now, unfortunately by joining the British navy he remained a deserter and the only income he had was a British Navy pension.

[melmothtw]

Since when did Ireland support Hitler ?

FFS at least if you are going to comment on a thread like this please do some research.


Racedo - The implication of statements mentioned previously in this thread about the Irish government expressing its condolences to the German people suggest that the Irish supported Hitler during the war.

I qualified my use of the word support by wrapping it single quotes to show that, although they were no fans of the British, support is probably not the right term to articulate their feelings towards the Germans.

Apologies if this escaped you, FFS.

[KG86]

I heard this story, first hand, from someone who had been an observer on Sunderland flying boats in Northern Ireland, during WW2.

They were based on Lough Earne and, as has been mentioned in other threads, the aircraft were permitted to fly due West from there, crossing about 5 nm of the Republic, rather than have to fly NE for some 50 nm before turning W to avoid it. This was known, in some parts, as the 'Secret Air Corridor,' and saved about 150 nm each way to/from their Atlantic patrols.

My colleague said that, being fed up with rationing in NI, his crew decided to nip over the border, find an Irish pub, and have a few glasses of whisky (or should that be whiskey). So, one evening, they borrowed a 3 ton truck, all piled aboard and drove across the (completely unmanned) border. They drove to the west coast, and headed south, stopping at the first pub they saw.

They climbed out of the truck, all in uniform of course, went into the bar and ordered a round of drinks. As they waited, they looked behind the bar, through into the 'snug' and there, also in uniform, was a German U Boat crew! Both sides raised their glasses to each other, drank up and his crew then turned tail to rerurn, somewhat shocked, back to NI.

The view from their limited persepective at the time was that Ireland was allowing German vessels to berth.

[What the Fug]

Probably British/Polish/Dutch Naval personnel from Derry having a bit of fun at RAF expense.

Besides the U boat that dropped survivors in Kerry early on in the war, there is not one recorded incident of a U boat in Irish waters, except as figment of the imagination of the Daily Express/Mail.


All reports of U boats were radioed to Dublin, on a frequency which was made know to the British Admiralty

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Besides the U boat that dropped survivors in Kerry early on in the war, there is not one recorded incident of a U boat in Irish waters, except as figment of the imagination of the Daily Express/Mail.

Well one that was going to Irish waters was carrying Sean Russell back from Germany after his liaison with the Nazis. I would be very surprised if that was the only one tbh.

Also

During this patrol, U-38 was able to land Walter Simon, a Nazi agent, at Dingle Bay in Ireland on June 12. Not realising that the passenger services of the Tralee and Dingle Light Railway had been closed fourteen months earlier, he asked when the next train to Dublin was. He was arrested and interned in the Curragh Camp for the duration of the war.

[cazatou]

IIRC some 250,000 Men from the Republic of Ireland volunteered to serve in the British Forces in WW2.

[racedo]

Racedo - The implication of statements mentioned previously in this thread about the Irish government expressing its condolences to the German people suggest that the Irish supported Hitler during the war.

I qualified my use of the word support by wrapping it single quotes to show that, although they were no fans of the British, support is probably not the right term to articulate their feelings towards the Germans.

Apologies if this escaped you, FFS.

Being a neutral nation the also expressed their condolences to the US Embassy on the death of FDR.............or did you not realise this ?

[racedo]

My colleague said that, being fed up with rationing in NI, his crew decided to nip over the border, find an Irish pub, and have a few glasses of whisky (or should that be whiskey). So, one evening, they borrowed a 3 ton truck, all piled aboard and drove across the (completely unmanned) border. They drove to the west coast, and headed south, stopping at the first pub they saw.


Right and given that history shows that severe rationing was in force in Ireland do you not think that a 3 ton truck wandering round the countryside looking for a pub would not get noticed ?

Ireland is not short of pubs, the idea that someone would take a truck and wander miles and miles passing towns and pubs so they could just get into the same pub as a phantom U Boat crew is one of those stories which not even the great fiction writers would believe.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Racedo
Being a neutral nation the also expressed their condolences to the US Embassy on the death of FDR.............or did you not realise this ?

Mmmmm.......Eamon De Valera went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer in 1945 for gods sake when the war was nearly over. Not exactly a supportive thing to do for the Taoiseach was it ?


Did he go to Washington ? Or the US Embassy representative ?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I visited Dublin as part of a school rugby team in the early 80's - I believe that I watched a Triple crown winning team that Saturday. I was somewhat surprised to see a swastika adorned chimney in 'the middle' of Dublin - I dn;t think that there were any U-Boat crews, though.

Duncs:ok:

[racedo]

Mmmmm.......Eamon De Valera went to personally commiserate with the Nazi representative in Eire, Dr Eduard Hempel on the death of their beloved Fuhrer in 1945 for gods sake when the war was nearly over. Not exactly a supportive thing to do for the Taoiseach was it ?

Supporting thing for whom ?

De Valera followed the protocols he felt correct for a neutal nation.

[racedo]

I visited Dublin as part of a school rugby team in the early 80's - I believe that I watched a Triple crown winning team that Saturday. I was somewhat surprised to see a swastika adorned chimney in 'the middle' of Dublin - I dn;t think that there were any U-Boat crews, though.

Duncshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I think thats the Swatztika Laundry

Swastika Laundry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry)

Then again on google maps of Japan the Swastika is shown.....nowt to down with Nazism

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Racedo
De Valera followed the protocols he felt correct for a neutal nation

It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture (really ?) but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make or any other neutral nation. It was also 3 months after the hell of Auschwitz had been discovered and a few weeks after Belsen ! What a leader eh !

The Irish government were no friends of the British during WWII, no matter how some try to paint over it.

[racedo]

It was a display of support that no other national leader on earth made. At the time it was defended as a diplomatic gesture (really ?) but was one that not even General Franco was insensitive enough to make or any other neutral nation. It was also 3 months after the hell of Auschwitz had been discovered and a few weeks after Belsen ! What a leader eh !

And your point is what ?

A leader of a nation wishes to maintain its full declaration of neutrality in both its deeds and words even when he didn't have to.

As for using Franco as an example :ugh:................he happily used Nazi airplanes on his own people and was more than happy to accept Allied cash post war even while exiling and still terrorising his own people.

Irish maintained its neutrality even when Allied victory was assured and didn't jump on the bandwagon which is to their credit unlike quite a few others who did.


The Irish government were no friends of the British during WWII, no matter how some try to paint over it.

The Irish Govt were neutral and needed to be friends of nobody. Their stance was pro British rather than pro German as many other posters have already alluded to. Facts of history are already there to show it.

There is no such thing as friendship in International affairs just National Interests because if you think US supplied Britain with weapons prior to Dec 7th 1941 for friendship reason rather than for its own economic reasons I have a bridge to sell you.

[ORAC]

De valera was a, strange man, and of his generation. As with Maggie Thatcher we was divisive in the support he attracted.

As many would protest at Maggie being used to define their nation, so would many Irish.

As background, my parents were Irish ad moved to the UK in around 1948. Pre-war the photos of my father show him as a corporal in a naval service, I presume the Coastguard, during the war he was commissioned in the Army and guarded one of the POW camps.

We were never that close, and we never spoke of his time before he moved to the UK.

Things that are lost in time.......

[Fire 'n' Forget]

As for using Franco as an example

If you cannot see the point that Franco had the support of Hitler and Mussolini as well as receiving equipment etc against his people. Yet even that tyrant was not insensitive enough to offer condolences towards Hitler or the German people Only 1 leader in the WORLD did :ugh: where was Sweden/Switzerlands condolences etc ? :D

Ireland was that neutral that post war they gladly signed up to the Marshal Plan and put their hand out to the Americans offer of cash to help rebuild Europe :D :ooh:(something they are still particularly good at doing today :cool:)

It is also telling that on the 26th January 2003 Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,"

It is also funny that famous Poet/journalist/broadcaster Sir John Betjeman, while working in Dublin during the war stated with regard to the Irish people that they are: " either anti-British, pro Irish and pro-German, the Irish papers are all anti-British…and the best-selling writers are pro-German".

Let's face it, EIRE was lower than a snakes belly during WWII where the British were concerned. :ok:

I presume you have some link to EIRE Racedo that is maybe clouding any sort of objectivity :hmm: :ugh: it's getting boring so I'm at my Bingo on this bye !

[ericferret]

Spains neutrality is a little like the kings new clothes!!!!

From Hitlers Legions S.W Mitcham 1985

German 250th Infantry Division

Spanish volunteers 14,000 strong August 1941
8000 casualties turning back the Russian winter offensive 1941/42
Received further replacements from Spain
Further 3200 casualties 1943
1944 Franco requests division returns to Spain
Half of the troops transfer to the Waffen SS and fight to the end of the war.

Divisional comanders Major General Munoz Grandes and Emilo Esteban-Infantes

One mans neutral is another mans enemy!!!!!
Probably about 4 times the number of Irishmen who fought on the side of the Allies.

Given the fate of most of the foreigners fighting for Hitler on the eastern front it is unlikely
that many of those who stayed saw Spain again.

Valour in support of an unworthy cause, very sad.

[racedo]

If you cannot see the point that Franco had the support of Hitler and Mussolini as well as receiving equipment etc against his people. Yet even that tyrant was not insensitive enough to offer condolences towards Hitler or the German people Only 1 leader in the WORLD did :ugh: where was Sweden/Switzerlands condolences etc ? :D

Ireland was that neutral that post war they gladly signed up to the Marshal Plan and put their hand out to the Americans offer of cash to help rebuild Europe :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif(something they are still particularly good at doing today http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif)

It is also telling that on the 26th January 2003 Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell openly apologized for Irish wartime policy that was inspired by "a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,"

It is also funny that famous Poet/journalist/broadcaster Sir John Betjeman, while working in Dublin during the war stated with regard to the Irish people that they are: " either anti-British, pro Irish and pro-German, the Irish papers are all anti-British…and the best-selling writers are pro-German".

Let's face it, EIRE was lower than a snakes belly during WWII where the British were concerned. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I presume you have some link to EIRE Racedo that is maybe clouding any sort of objectivity http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif :ugh: it's getting boring so I'm at my Bingo on this bye !

Given your whole remit has been to ignore the subject matter and continue on a rant about your hatred of Ireland I don't see you moving on as losing anything on this thread.

If you had actually bothered to read up on the history of the period both readily available from both sides it would open your eyes but I see that not happening.

[Brian Abraham]

Intermission entertainment. Warning - aviation content.

The German (http://player.vimeo.com/video/31202906?autoplay=1)

[Tankertrashnav]

Did RAF aircrew routinely carry personal firearms? Or German aircrew for that matter?

[Halton Brat]

What a good little vignette BA, thanks for posting.

In a peaceful glade, high in the Wicklow mountains south of Dublin, there is a small German war cemetery for those sailors & airmen who were not so fortunate.

As a 100% full-blooded, Guinness-swilling, ballad-singing (ex-RAF) Mick, I am hugely proud of Wing Commander Brendan 'Paddy' Finucane of Dublin. When he was shot down (by ground fire) in 1942, he was a 21yr-old Wg Cdr/OC Hornchurch Spitfire Wing, with 26 confirmed victories. I am sure that he would have become the top-scoring RAF ace of WW2, had he survived. His No1 uniform is on display at the RAF Museum, Hendon.

Erin go Bragh!

HB

[RUCAWO]

Have a look at this thread on Slugger O'Toole about this subject, not recommended for those with high blood pressure.

Ireland vindictive treatment of soldiers who ‘deserted’ peace for war… « Slugger O'Toole (http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/01/17/ireland-vindictive-treatment-of-soldiers-who-deserted-peace-for-war/)

[clareprop]

My Father was a guard at The Curragh which was the camp where combatants from both sides who found themselves in Ireland were incarcerated during the war. German forces (mainly Luftwaffe) and English (mainly RAF)were subject to parole conditions which allowed them to leave the camp during evening hours. These conditions were observed almost exclusively during the period.

[Dundiggin']

...........and then the so call 'neutral' Irish Government allowed the 'U' boat crews to have R & R in their ports between murdering the atlantic convoys. 'Neutral' my @rse. Irish gits! :\

[racedo]

...........and then the so call 'neutral' Irish Government allowed the 'U' boat crews to have R & R in their ports between murdering the atlantic convoys. 'Neutral' my @rse. Irish gits!

Another fantasy post.....

Backed up by not a single shred or fact.

[Dan Winterland]

An urban myth. Ireland was losing ships to the U Boats so I don't think the Kreigsmarine would have been very welcome.


A story regarding a brawl in a bar in Angra, the capital of Terceira Ialsnd in the Azores isn't a myth however. The Azores are Portuguese and tehnically Portugal was neutral in WW2, for the first couple of years at least. However, the British put pressure on them based on a 600 year old treaty and the Portugese allowed the RAF to establish an airbase at Lajes where anti submarine aircraft operated. Germans were still putting into the Azores for supplies, and one night, a group of RAF crew on a night out came across some Germans in a bar and a punch up ensued. The story has it that it was a U Boat crew, but as the U Boats didn't dock away from base, it was more likely to be a supply ship. The Germans were for a while resupplying the U Boats off the Azores and there is a large rock off the south coast of Terceira with a large split, which (as the story says) the Germans used to use as cover for the resupply operation.

[Tankertrashnav]

In a statement indicating the Irish government's willingness to pardon the Irish "deserters", Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter made the following remarks about Irish neutrality before and during WW2, with particular reference to its failure to assist Jews who were seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.


“In the 1930s practically all visa requests from German Jews were refused by the Irish authorities.
“This position was maintained from 1939 to 1945 and we should no longer be in denial that, in the context of the Holocaust, Irish neutrality was a principle of moral bankruptcy.(my italics)
“This moral bankruptcy was compounded by the then Irish government who, after the war, only allowed an indefensibly small number who survived the concentration camps to settle permanently in Ireland and also by the visit of President de Valera to then German ambassador Edouard Hempel in 1945 to express his condolences on the death of Hitler.



Referring to the treatment of those considered as deserters from the Irish Defence Forces, he said:


"It is untenable that we commemorate those who died (a reference to Holocaust Memorial Day) whilst continuing to ignore the manner in which our State treated the living in the period immediately after World War II, who returned to our state having fought for freedom and democracy".

[racedo]

n a statement indicating the Irish government's willingness to pardon the Irish "deserters", Irish Justice Minister Alan Shatter made the following remarks about Irish neutrality before and during WW2, with particular reference to its failure to assist Jews who were seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.

Alan Shatter known as a Zionist supporter of Israel so would you expect him to say anything else ?

Many countries refused to accept Jewish people fleeing the Nazi's, MS St Louis is but one example.

[Tankertrashnav]

I know that Mr Shatter is Jewish, I believe he is the first ever Jew to be an Irish government minister. I don't know enough about him to know whether he can fairly be called a Zionist, but I'll take your word for it.

I hold no particular brief for the state of Israel, but whatever one's views on the actions of a state which wasn't formed until 1948, they seem irrelevant when considering the fate of the Jews attempting to escape Nazi oppression in the 1930's. There seems little doubt that Ireland's refusal to offer asylum to Jews at this time was in no small way influenced by the Catholic Church, whose attitude to the Jews in those days can at best be described as ambivalent.

As a Roman Catholic of Irish extraction I feel ashamed of both Ireland's and the Church's record in this area, and wholeheartedly agree with Mr Slatter's statement.

With reference to the MS St Louis, it should be noted that the United Kingdom accepted 288 of the 930 refugees who returned to Europe after its abortive trip to Cuba, the USA and Canada. I am not aware that Ireland took any in.

[racedo]

I know that Mr Shatter is Jewish, I believe he is the first ever Jew to be an Irish government minister.

Not by a long stretch as there have been previous Minsters in Govt including quite a few Lord Mayors of Dublin.



they seem irrelevant when considering the fate of the Jews attempting to escape Nazi oppression in the 1930's. There seems little doubt that Ireland's refusal to offer asylum to Jews at this time was in no small way influenced by the Catholic Church, whose attitude to the Jews in those days can at best be described as ambivalent.

Ireland allowed few emigrants in at that point in time because its own poverty caused a concern that emigrants would cause further issues.



With reference to the MS St Louis, it should be noted that the United Kingdom accepted 288 of the 930 refugees who returned to Europe after its abortive trip to Cuba, the USA and Canada. I am not aware that Ireland took any in.

No they didn't and neither did most countrys, Ireland's stance was neutrality in staying out of the big powers fights.

In 1937 The Irish Constitution gave constitutional protection members of the Jewish faith along with other religions...........

In 1948 DeValera over ruled his own Dept of Justice to allow in Jewish children and again in 52.

Monsignor O'Flaherty of The Scarlet Pimpernel movie worked extensively with Irish Foreign Minister to the Vatican in Rome to provide diplomatic protection to thousands of Jews in Rome acting under Irish Govt orders.

[Tankertrashnav]

I think we are going to have to agree to differ over this one Racedo. Your points taken one by one are certainly factually correct (and I stand corrected over earlier Jewish ministers) but I think it is all a matter of perspective. From my own point of view I think that whereas the country of my forefathers has often been able to claim the moral high ground, in this matter, as in the matter of the treatment of deserters it has much to answer for

[racedo]

I think we are going to have to agree to differ over this one Racedo. Your points taken one by one are certainly factually correct (and I stand corrected over earlier Jewish ministers) but I think it is all a matter of perspective. From my own point of view I think that whereas the country of my forefathers has often been able to claim the moral high ground, in this matter, as in the matter of the treatment of deserters it has much to answer for

Thank you for the polite interchange.

Ultimately a nation will treat a deserter in what ever way it sees fit if that deserter has left their army and joined a foreign power.

[corsair]

A pardon for those men has just been announced:

Pardon for soldiers who deserted for allies in WWII - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0612/govt-pardon-for-former-soldiers.html)

The Government is to pardon over 4,500 former soldiers who deserted the Defence Forces during World War II to fight with the Allied Forces.
Minister for Defence Alan Shatter told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.

A good resolution to the issue. Symbolic yes but important. I believe one of my uncles appears on the famous list.

[glojo]

Respect to the Irish Government for making what some might believe is a controversial decision.

John

[helen-damnation]

Lets look on it dispassionately while others rant.....

WHY? FFS, surely now is the time to get passionate about it :mad::ugh:

[Tankertrashnav]

Good result, even if long overdue :ok:

[Halton Brat]

I welcome this further sign of the maturity & forward progress of the Irish people and their government.

This, together with the huge success of HMQ's visit to Ireland last year, bodes well for the future of all of the peoples of these islands which we call home.

HB

[teeteringhead]

But why did the London Olympic torch get to Croke Park:confused::confused:

...and carried by Jedward:confused::confused::confused:

an integration/reparation too far methinks

[Tankertrashnav]

Croke park - yes.

Jedward - noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

[Halton Brat]

This was clearly a gesture of conciliation by Ireland in order to soothe the pain caused to England when Ireland famously beat them during the 6 Nations Rugby at Croke Park a few years ago.

Over it yet, are you boys? :E

HB

[Pure Pursuit]

The only decent speech Gordon Brown ever gave...

[Al R]

.. as well as the one keeping us out of the Euro?

[Tankertrashnav]

Well they finally did it - but what took them so long? I wonder how many died in the period between the decision being made and the pardon being made law?

BBC News - WWII Irish 'deserters' granted pardons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22430834)

What's that saying about justice delayed is justice denied? :*

[SOSL]

It's easy to criticise almost any country, state, nation, religion or cultural group, but we're not all perfect.

I think that we Brits, in the past, have been guilty of some serious crimes against large numbers of defenceless, innocent people.

"let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Rgds SOS

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm sorry SOSL, I don't agree. I am of mixed English Irish heritage and therefore I feel I have a foot in both camps. All of my life I feel that the United Kingdom has has a veritable hail of stones cast at it from the other side of the Irish Sea, some justified, some not. I think there is a general sense in this country now that historically the Irish people were badly treated by the British government, both before and after the Union, but those historical wrongs did not justify the De Valera government from treating its own citizens in the way that it did.

We are now in a period when relations between our two countries have probably never been better, and I celebrate that fact. All the more reason for the Irish government to act as it has done to overturn the injustice done to its citizens for fighting alongside "the Brits". All I'm saying is when you consider the ages of those survivors who were so shabbily treated by past Irish adminstrations, it's a pity the present one didnt get on with it once the decision was taken.

Still, better late than never, so two cheers for the Dail!

[racedo]

TTN

Would you want or trust a deserter alongside you ?

There was no punishment for Irish citizens who fought with the Allies in WW2. There was punishment for Irish citizens who having gave an oath as a Free State soldier then deserted to a foreign army.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

So, racedo,

What would you do with the Free French? Those individuals who refused to stand by the decision of their elected government to surrender to the Nazis and decided to cross the channel and continue the fight - sometimes against their own countrymen. Those men were deserters. Imagine having to stand next to such a person at the end of the war?

Duncs:ok:

[SOSL]

I don't seem to have made my point clearly. I do agree with your last post TTN.

My criticism was aimed, not at the Irish Government, which deserves respect for pardoning these valiant people after all this time.

Rather at the few posters on this thread who have expressed somewhat "jingoistic" opinions suggesting that the UK, in some way, can claim the moral high ground over the Irish. In spite of our long and bloody history and, in the past, our greedy and oppressive treatment of many weaker peoples.

I acknowledge that we weren't the only ones - Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Holland et al were all flagrant colonisers who exploited African, Middle Eastern, sub-continental asian and Far Eastern peoples and stole their natural resources.

Whew - got that off my chest!

Rgds SOS

P.S. My Dad's family are from Galway and my Mum's from Shetland. I was born in Shetland but when I joined up I was advised to "get rid of my accent". I worked at it and now I can't speak properly any more ( I sound English and when I go home they call me a sooth mooth).

[racedo]

What would you do with the Free French? Those individuals who refused to stand by the decision of their elected government to surrender to the Nazis and decided to cross the channel and continue the fight - sometimes against their own countrymen. Those men were deserters. Imagine having to stand next to such a person at the end of the war?

Good question.

But as French 3rd Republic ceased to exist, your country is occupied and Army was stood down then how can you desert something which has ceased to exist.

[Halton Brat]

I think that it is worth remembering that events such as this were engineered and administered by people now long dead. Through the safe and comfortable telescope of time, it is very difficult to understand the reasoning, emotions and politics of an era which is, now, a life-time from us.

Current leaders and politicos may express regret for such actions; this really changes little, other than to act as a soothing (and justified) balm to the survivors themselves, and relatives & descendants of the subject individuals.

I sometimes find it slightly bizarre to hear present-day leaders 'apologising' for events which occurred perhaps more than 100yrs ago, before any of us were born; history is all in the past, as some sage said............

HB (Irish)

[Tankertrashnav]

That is true, HB, but my point was that many of the victims of this policy are still alive, albeit in steadily diminishing numbers. This is different from, say, the slave trade, the potato famine and many other historical wrongs, where no amount of meaningless apologising can make a shred of difference to the long dead victims. In this case a (regrettably small) number can feel that their actions have finally been vindicated.

[Halton Brat]

Point well made & taken, TT

HB

[Tankertrashnav]

Just reviving this thread after two years to mark the fact that Phil Harrington, the last of the group of Irish soldiers who received a pardon for "deserting" during World War two, has died

Phil Farrington: Last 'Irish pardon' WW2 soldier dies at 94 - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32573191)

With this and the welcome presence of the Irish head of state, President Higgins, at the recent ceremony at Gallipoli to mark the deaths of so many Irish soldiers in that campaign, perhaps Ireland can now finally put this shameful period in its history behind it.

[KenV]

While, personally, I have every sympathy for those who stepped forward and fought fascism (whether Hitler, Franco or anyone else), and do believe that their action and sacrifice should be acknowledged, in this case the fact of the matter is that members of the armed forces of one state deserted their post and went to fight for another sovereign. If members of the British Army had deserted their posts in Afghanistan, the UK or elsewhere to take up the fight against Gadaffi, how should they have been treated?



Hmmmm. US airmen "deserted" their county to fight for the British as well as the Chinese governments. There was some consternation concerning their actions, but they were welcomed back into their own nation's military and came home with a hero's welcome. So in answer to your question, "they" should "have been treated" far far differently than they were and CERTAINLY their children should have been treated far far differently than they were. There's just no excuse or even a remote justification for treating the children of these people in the manner that they were treated. NONE.

[Top West 50]

Does anyone know where Benny Jackson is buried?

[t43562]

Rather at the few posters on this thread who have expressed somewhat "jingoistic" opinions suggesting that the UK, in some way, can claim the moral high ground over the Irish. In spite of our long and bloody history and, in the past, our greedy and oppressive treatment of many weaker peoples.

I acknowledge that we weren't the only ones - Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Holland et al were all flagrant colonisers who exploited African, Middle Eastern, sub-continental asian and Far Eastern peoples and stole their natural resources.There were quite a lot of Irish people (such as my dad) out there exploiting the empire. Just to mention it. You know - holding long discussions about the wrongs done to them by the Brits and pausing occasionally to shout red-faced at their native servants. To be fair that wasn't my dad but I have the men in mind. :-)

Perhaps moral high-grounds should be treated like football matches. You win sometimes and lose sometimes but everyone manages, given the power, to do some things they're not proud of later. If you can't take the idea of ever losing a "match" then you can't take the steps needed to be the kind of decent group of people you want to be.

[Tankertrashnav]

That is oh so true t43562 (or may I call you t45 for short? ;) The idea that the world can be divided into goodies and baddies is nonsense. Once anyone gets into a position of power we do tend to turn into baddies, regardless of our race, religion or nationality.

[Pali]

Look what happened to many Czech and Slovak warriors who joined RAF and returned home after WW2. Many of them have been considered as spies by communist regime under Stalin and served many years in jail or been even executed.

Heroes are not always acknowledged as it should be.

Without this thread I wouldn't know about this part of Irish - UK history.


Just a side note: Even today it is considered a criminal act if a Slovak citizen would join military service of any foreign state without permission from according authorities.