Poor CRM or Company SOPs?

[forever flying]

I recently found this video on YouTube which shows a B738 landing and the Captain "tapping" the FO's hands from the throttles to take control when they approached minimums. Seeing as this is the airline side of DG&P and I'm a low time student pilot, I figured this is the best place to ask if the Captain was displaying a rude attitude or just following a SOP or something?

Auto-Land Boeing 737-800 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/eROvM02HpJY)

Cheers,
FF

[chimbu warrior]

Obviously cannot comment on the SOP's of the carrier (no idea who they are), however I have a few other concerns about this Captain. Allowing loose items on the pedestal is most unwise (in any type), and I notice that despite being the handling pilot once on the ground (normal for most B737 operators, as most only have a tiller on the LHS), he insists on turning off the landing lights.

This is definitely not in accord with the Boeing "area of responsibility" policy.

Maybe he is just one of those "these are all MY buttons and switches" type of dudes..........:ugh:

[c100driver]

That is SOP for some airlines. The First Officer is the flying pilot and head down all the way to DA. The Captain assesss the conditions at DA if suitable to continue with enough vizual ques to land, the Captain then takes over and lands.

If the Captain does not have the required ques he calls the GA and the First Officer flies the missed approach.

The First Officer is always head down and the Captain is scanning outside for visual ques and aircraft positioning.

[PLovett]

I think c100driver is correct.

I recall reading an article about the Swissair operation of the DC9 many years ago and an instrument approach was conducted by the FO. The Capt. took over at the minimums and landed or called for the missed approach. This was pre-auto-land when approaches were conducted manually.

[Capn Bloggs]

and I notice that despite being the handling pilot once on the ground (normal for most B737 operators, as most only have a tiller on the LHS), he insists on turning off the landing lights.

This is definitely not in accord with the Boeing "area of responsibility" policy.

Maybe he is just one of those "these are all MY buttons and switches" type of dudes..........
Oh come on. Are you seriously getting into a knot over landing light switches? Your paranoia over "areas of responsibility" appears to be taking over from KISS. The Boeing AOR is for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

I suppose you think the FO should switch the lights to Landing for the takeoff because the captain's too busy...

[greybeard]

Actually the PF usually has only 2 hands, one on the controls or steering and the other on the power levers.
Which is why the off/on bits are better done by the support pilot.

I have seen such distractions cause some incorect and inappropriate selections of items.
:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Actually the PF usually has only 2 hands, one on the controls or steering and the other on the power levers.

On the ground before TO or after landing??

With this paranoia about loadsharing, one wonders what would happen if one of the crew carked-it and the other had to go single-pilot for the arrival.

[astroboy55]

called a 'monitored approach'......

as c100 said...

[Popgun]

Actually the PF usually has only 2 hands, one on the controls or steering and the other on the power levers.
Which is why the off/on bits are better done by the support pilot.


This has always made complete sense to me and was how we operated in my former (Boeing) company.

In my current company (Airbus), we make one exception. The PF turns on the Autopilot rather than calling for the PNF to do it.

I've never understood the rationale for this odd exception...that the PF should take his eyes off the flight instruments, and his hands of the thrust levers, in order to reach up and select an autopilot on.

Not a major point, of course, but not really in line with the general philosophy that a PF, when flying manually, should do nothing except fly.

PG

[Unusual-Attitude]

The skipper could do with learning how to use an iron...that shirts a disgrace! :}

[forever flying]

That makes sense re: being a monitored approach, but did the Captain display an appropriate way to assume control from the PNF? I would have thought a basic "taking over - handing over" would be a little more professional than how he did it.

[Agent86]

FF I would have thought a basic "taking over - handing over" would be a little more professional than how he did it.

You can't hear any of the interphone chatter on the video (you HAVE to talk to the aircraft to make it fly remember:hmm:). I would guess the FO just forgot to remove his hand. I have had to do the same to a few FO's during the takeoff roll after the power has been set. Old habits die hard.

[redsnail]

My guess is it's Ryanair. A B737-800 going into Luton/EGGW.

FO probably just forgot to remove his hands.

[40Deg STH]

As a Cathay pilot, I was amazed at the lack of talking and mouth music lol.
Also as an ex 737 Captain, I was not overly surprised, it would greatly depend on the the FO flying and experience and SOP's.
If you have a 3000 hour FO ( normal), then no worries! ex cadet, the the Captain was correct and the FO (SO) responded correctly. An experirnced FO, I expect would tell me to FO!!!!!!!if I did that

[BraceBrace]

Don't see anything wrong with the handover of controls. The hand movement of the captain is in our company the only correct one, a very nice example of how to do it correctly.

It prevents to FO from moving his hand too soon (which happens a lot when trying to be "polite") since he might have to do a go-around. It prevents the CPT from moving his hands on the throttles too late. In short: 50ft above the ground is not the place where you spare time so "positive transfer of control" is required.

We have a similar situation on takeoff, when FO is PF and keeps his hand on the throttles untill captain confirms "takeoff thrust set" and takes over the throttles. Same methodology is used because at full takeoff thrust, there isn't a period of time where you want the throttles to be "unattended by hands". If I don't feel the cpt's hand crawling under mine, I'm not letting go of the throttles. No way. I do "curl" my hand to kind of "show" that he's supposed to take over the throttles.

Now as for the "cleanup" procedures: the only issue is not really landing lights, but the fact that he needs to start with the spoilers :-), since it's a "go" sign for the cleanup (if runway vacated). Landings lights he can still do, he still is the captain. Same with the FD which you normally keep on untill shutdown. But many pilots don't like the ridiculous layout of the PFD during taxi. Aaaah procedures :-)