Would it have been any good?

[Oldsarbouy]

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss297/oldsarbouy/SAR%20Merlin/P1010020.jpg

[Sun Who]

Yes.

I had the privilege of assessing it for UK use, as a SAR platform.

With some minor modifications it would have been awesome. Tricky for very small boats, cragfast climbers etc, but definitely doable and its other capabilities would have more than made up for its shortcomings.

Just my view.:)

Sun.

[Trim Stab]

For mountain rescue I suspect it would arrive really quickly, then bury everybody in an avalanche...

[[email protected]]

Tricky for very small boats, cragfast climbers etcor anywhere else where downwash is an issue when winching (which is a majority of UK SAROPs) - exactly what 'minor modifications' would be needed to turn this into an 'awesome' SAR aircraft.

Speed and range are but a small part of the picture if the downwash of the aircraft requires ridiculous hover heights (with the associated loss of hover references) to enable a safe and effective winching configuration to be achieved.

PS in what capacity were you asked to assess this as a suitable SAR platform?

[Rigga]

"...or anywhere else where downwash is an issue when winching..."

I seem to remember the very same statements made against the introduction of the Seaking to replace Whirlwinds and Wessex.

The only difference was a longer winch line.

[llamaman]

Rigga,

Spot-on re. Sea King. There's always a percentage of people who are very quick to right-off anything new (e.g. every single new type while I've been in service!).

Downwash and hover attitude are definitely issues for the Merlin but by no means insurmountable. IMHO these would be most definitely outweighed by the advantages the airframe would bring, regardless the 'it hovers too high for references' argument is lame. A B737 autopilot with extremely good auto-hover and rad-alt holds would no doubt come into it's own in certain circumstances. I know if I'd just been winched off a ship in desperate need of medical attention that 148kts cruise speed with stacks of fuel (even more in the 3A) and an excellent icing clearance would more than make up for the ex Sea-King pilot grumbling that 'it hovers too nose high'!

With a decent radar I think it would make a very effective SAR platform, now cost would be another issue!

Just my tuppence worth.

llamaman

[alfred_the_great]

can you not use the auto-hover/transition capability of a Merlin in SAR Ops? I would ask our WAFUs, but we're on leave.

[llamaman]

Yes, you could.

[oldgrubber]

Reading this and personal experience with the Royal Navy version I would say yes it would have been good. Despite the early problems there are times when only the Cormarant can get airborne in the extreme conditions in Canada.


'Most Challenging' Mountainside Helicopter Rescue Wins Cormorant Trophy | Aero-News Network (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=8abbfcac-c1af-4a92-b751-543c8d8e18c3)

[Spanish Waltzer]

Paint it grey & red and you may get your wish. :oh::mad::oh:

[Sun Who]

Crab said:

PS in what capacity were you asked to assess this as a suitable SAR platform?

I was the RWOETU rearcrew SAR desk officer. Work it out.

Sun.

P.S.

Crab, ever winched in an EH101, over the water? I have.

[sycamore]

If you have a good crew ,you don`t need hover references,you just listen to the `mouth-music`......!

[Jollygreengiant64]

'til someone steps on it.:}

[Just This Once...]

Leaving a yellow DIRCM pod on the model was a nice touch.

[Thone1]

The Danish Air Force is using it, having retired their very last Sea Kings last year.

They seem to be working well with them.

Thomas

[[email protected]]

Ah Sun Who? possibly small, loud, recently retired radop????

Since 90 plus% of UK SAR involves rescuing less than 3 people, how is that extra size, downwash and expense going to make itself useful??

I believe you actually weren't that complementary about it when you did the trials!

The move from the Wessex to Sea King did involve increasing hover heights to mitigate the downwash but the Merlin has a very concentrated downwash due to disc loading and blade design that takes it into another league entirely.

I guess those that dismiss decent hover references as unimportant must be such Gods that the rest of us poor mortal SAR pilots are not worthy:{

[Sun Who]

Crab,

Ah Sun Who? possibly small, loud, recently retired radop????

Nope, keep guessing. I'd hope my spelling and grammar were too good for the chap you're thinking of. My log book says you and I last flew together on 23 May 2002 - Sits, Rad/FCS and Dex;)

Hopefully we can keep this friendly, I remember us getting on very well in person.:)

I don't think EH101 or variant would have been good for all scenarios, and the rotorwash does take management. However, as a solution to the 'large platform' requirement of a two type SAR-H force, I think it could have been pretty impressive. Hence my answer to the OP's question - would it have been any good?

Having also had exposure to the AW139, I could counter that the cab on that platform was too small. I can't think of a 'perfect' SAR cab (a fast Sea king maybe?) but I do believe the way the Danes configured the EH101 for SAR resulted in a pretty impressive effort.

Sun.

[Senior Pilot]

The move from the Wessex to Sea King did involve increasing hover heights to mitigate the downwash

By a huge 10 feet :p

As did the Whirlwind to Wessex before it, but no-one seemed to find these changes a deal breaker when put against the overall improvements :hmm:

[llamaman]

Crab,

I'm not sure anyone was dismissing decent hover references as being advantageous, just that the Merlin (hypothetically) would be a good SAR cab if operated correctly as I'm sure the Danes and Canadians will testify. If the requirement is to only rescue 3 at short range then why bother with the Sea King in the first place?

A mixed fleet would offer best flexibility, it's nice to see that the Government have gone for that option with the civilian contract.

Whatever platforms they go for, I'm sure plenty of 'experts' in this forum will be very quick to dismiss them.

llamaman

[[email protected]]

Sun Who - that does narrow it down to a choice of 2 but the small, loud one who was also in the post you held did fly the Merlin extensively and was less than impressed with its suitability for UK SAR due to the downwash.

Whether or not it is good for the Canadians or the Danes is irrelevant for UK SAR since our requirements are clearly different.

I agree llamaman that a mixed fleet is the way forward - it is what we had with Whirlwind and Wessex and also with Wessex and Sea King but we were forced into a 'one size fits all' fleet with the Sea King.

The Sea King brought a huge increase in capability over the Wessex into all- weather, day and night SAR - any new helicopter will not bring such a quantum change in capability, just enhance what we have in terms of speed.

The Merlin didn't make the cut in the first evolution of SARH - very unlikely I would think to see it in Pt 2. I also think the Danes and particularly the Canadians might not be that satisfied with it on reliability and availability grounds regardless of whether or not it fulfills the role well.

[ShyTorque]

The "intensive" downwash argument helped steer the RAF away from Puma/Super Puma SAR, many years ago.

Yet we found during wet drills that we could trap the liferaft and then bring the Puma down to a wheels on water height to allow "survivors" to climb directly into the cabin. ;)

Obviously, we kept it quiet, to make sure the yellowjob winch-ops didn't get put up for redundancy...

[SASless]

The move from the Wessex to Sea King did involve increasing hover heights to mitigate the downwash but the Merlin has a very concentrated downwash due to disc loading and blade design that takes it into another league entirely.


So....does that mean the V-22 with its phenomenal downwash is not a candidate for over-water SAR? Why think of the range, speed, and endurance the aircraft advertises!

Three or a dozen....surely the "need" is secondary to capacity because when you need the capacity it is surely a life or death situation is it not?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I also think the Danes and particularly the Canadians might not be that satisfied with it on reliability and availability grounds


Can't speak for the Danes, but the Canadians admit that much of the availability shortfall which they have experienced was a self hack because they omitted a proper spares/support package from the deal to buy the aircraft.

Gievn that our procurement always runs on rails, maybe the Merlin is a likely candidate after all...;)

[llamaman]

Torque,

Fair point about the Canadians. It's the same issue that hamstrung the Brit Merlin which, with adequate spares support, is a very reliable cab given it's complexity. At one point a few years back it wasn't possible to put a serviceable Mk 3 on the line because there were no spare landing lamp bulbs! Incidents like this, to the uninformed, meant the aircraft was categorically 'unreliable'.

llamaman

[COCL2]

Well pedantically the uninformed would be correct..
Like so much modem military kit the Merlin is a "system" - and its the "system" that' has broken down.
You can't tell the public that on one hand the Merlin is a complete packaged system, but then claim the Merlin is only an airframe when the system goes wrong..
Time for consistency in nomenclature - or even a completely new nomenclature to differentiate between "Merlin the system" and "Merlin the aircraft"

[llamaman]

COCL2,

Fair point.

As an aside, using the word 'pedantically' in the same breath as such poor grammar/spelling may not be the wisest.

llamaman

[COCL2]

Yeah you're right... memo to self: buy bigger computer screen so I can see what I'm typing