FAA to implement new fatigue/rest rules. Will CASA?

[bubble.head]

FAA finalises controversial pilot fatigue rules (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/faa-finalises-controversial-pilot-fatigue-rules-366293/)

"Airlines will have two years to implement sweeping changes to pilot rest rules as part of a final pilot fatigue rule for passenger-carrying airlines released by the US Federal Aviation Administration on 21 December"

Some of the changes are 10 hour min rest period before a flight and a 30 hours consecutive rest per week.

The question is than, will CASA follows the same footpath for a safer sky?

[Icarus2001]

Key elements of the rule include requiring a minimum 10h rest period before a flight, up 2h from the current rule; defining flight duty time to include deadheading, simulator training and other duties as assigned by the airline, and requiring pilots to have at least 30h consecutive duty-free time on a weekly basis, a 25% increase from current rules. There are also new monthly limits and a stipulation that a pilot sign off on the flight plan before a flight that he or she is fit for duty. Airlines will be required to switch out pilots who have determined they are not fit for duty.

I believe the US are simply catching up to Australian rules.

Can you point to something that they are doing that is markedly MORE limiting than what we have? Even using a standard industry exemption.

[compressor stall]

I work under an exemption that demands 10 hours free of duty and 36 hours off in 7 days. What exactly is the US catching up to?

[Howard Hughes]

If you are living in a major metropolitan centre you need considerably more than ten hours to facilitate commuting, adequate sustenance and rest.

[gobbledock]

FAA to implement new fatigue/rest rules. Will CASA?
CASA are weak incompetent nimrods. If the FAA do it then CASA will end up doing it.
These old pensioners are too bust concerning themselves with where the next fiddle will come from or when there next taxpayer funded perk will come. No time to think for themselves and come up with a strategy. Well not unless you get paid 150k per year as a board member to sit on just 4 meetings per year!! Then you have plenty of time. And if you are a bureaucrat who sits on several Boards then it is 'gravy time' !!!

[tail wheel]

The question is than, will CASA follows the same footpath for a safer sky?

I don't think CASA ever went there. Generally, pilots flight, duty times and rest periods, even with concessions/exemptions, are more restrictive in Australia?

[glekichi]

The 10hr thing is one minor change in these new US rules.
Take a look at the max duty limitations for different sign on times and numbers of sectors.
If implemented on RFDS operations it would certainly require some changes to the way we do business.

[HF3000]

I've always had issue with the difference between 10 hours rest and 10 hours free of duty.

The CASA CAO48E says something like 10 hours rest "at suitable sleeping accommodation". Now, does that mean the 10 hours starts when you reach your home or a hotel, or does it start when you walk off the aircraft, commute maybe 90 minutes to home or hotel, have 45 minutes wind-down before you can sleep, wake-up and spend 45 minutes getting ready for work, commute another 90 minutes and sign-on?

In the latter case the 10 hours has reduced to 5.5 hours of sleep.

[Capn Bloggs]

commute maybe 90 minutes to home
Move.

If the company forces your pilot group to taxi-it 90 min to a pub on an overnight, then that becomes a safety issue and can be pursued as such.

[Di_Vosh]

Move.

You're not management are you?

The distance (time) that you're allowed to live from your home base is detailed in your EA. Look under the reserve call out time. If it's 2 hours, then you can live 2 hours away from work.

IMHO if your company schedules your pilots a rest at home base which doesn't take into account your commute time plus 10 hours at home, then a pilot is entitled to call in fatigued if he/she isn't fully rested when they wake up for the next days duty.

DIVOSH!

[Icarus2001]

Sorry Di Vosh I agree with Bloggs, damn! (No he isn't but that is funny.)

On a reserve day you are in the garden, get the call to come in, clean up, shower, shave etc, THEN drive to work, two hours total. NOT two hours drive to work.

I believe the ten hours is roughly based on an hour to get home, eight hours horizontal and an hour back to work.

If a person CHOOSES to live over an hours drive from work then it is up to them but along with the right to do so is the responsibility to accept that on minimum rest periods they will suffer.

What you are suggesting here...IMHO if your company schedules your pilots a rest at home base which doesn't take into account your commute time plus 10 hours at home,is unworkable. Are you suggesting that the company keeps a register of each crews commute time?
Sign me up, I'll buy a property two hours away from work and keep a flat next to the airport or use a cheap motel to leverage some extra time off. It will not work.

Bottom line is if you are fatigued, do not sign on.

[bankrunner]

I'm sure CASA will get to it as soon as the rest of the regulatory reform program is sorted out :E

10 hours free of duty? I have a hard time believing that's safe. Even Woolies checkout operators get minimum 12 hours off between shifts.

[Captain Nomad]

Australian F&D limitations usually are more restrictive than the US. I have a friend in the US flying freight on a B1900 SP IFR, NO A/P, dodgy old wx radar and he is cheering because he is on a new route that will see him only doing about 850hrs a year as opposed to a figure closer to the 1,200hr/365 day limit that he was doing. He gets 5 days annual leave a year and after ten years of service he will get a whopping 2 weeks long service leave!

The grass ain't always greener, and the US ain't always the gold standard (even though they think that because they invented the 'airplane' it entitles them to that position)!

[Di_Vosh]

Icarus we may have to agree to disagree then :ok:

On a reserve day you are in the garden, get the call to come in, clean up, shower, shave etc, THEN drive to work, two hours total. NOT two hours drive to work.

That may be the case for you! I know plenty of people who when on reserve are showered, shaved, uniform ready to throw on, etc. Phone call, 5 min later are driving and at work bang on 2 hours after the call.

I Disagree on the other as well.

Are you suggesting that the company keeps a register of each crews commute time?

No. What I'm suggesting in a base of 150 pilots (i.e. Syd) the company directs the rostering people to NOT ROSTER late finishes followed by early starts at home base.

In any case, I'm talking Sydney here. Relatively few Qlink pilots can afford to live within a 60 minute drive to work.

When I was in Mildura it wasn't such an issue, as nearly all the flight and cabin crew lived less than 10 minutes away from the airport. Even so, finishing at 8:30pm and being back at work at 6:00am generally meant 7 hours sleep.

DIVOSH!

P.S. Bottom line is if you are fatigued, do not sign on.

Agree 100%!

[HF3000]

I'm not really talking about what an airline may choose to put in their work contract regarding distance of domicile from work... That is between them and their employees. I'm talking about the regulations - CASA says 10 hours rest "at suitable sleeping accommodation". The airlines interpret this as 10 hours free of duty.

Can you walk in the door and be asleep within 60 seconds? Do you sleep your uniform and jump straight in the car within 60 seconds? There is no way most crew can get 8 hours sleep with 10 hours free of duty. If you reduce my 90 minute commute time above to 60 minutes, you will probably still only get 6.5 hours sleep best case scenario. And this applies to hotels as well as domicile.

[Sarcs]

Maybe CASA's hand has been forced:

Red-eye pilots set for more rest in CASA safety overhaul | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/casa-plan-overhaul-in-pilot-fatigue-management/story-e6frfq80-1226229166461)

[Capn Bloggs]

I'm talking about the regulations - CASA says 10 hours rest "at suitable sleeping accommodation".
Not that I am aware. CAO48 says "rest" and the exemption syas "time free of duty". The term "suitable sleeping accomodation" is only used in the scenario of increasing the total duty time during a split duty.

[aussie027]

FAR 135 (AWK, Charter ops etc) flt and duty regs allow a 14hr duty day.
FAR121 (Airline ops) flt and duty allow a 16hr duty day.
The majority of people in regular jobs, work on average 8hrs, doing non safety critical jobs, yet its OK for pilots to work up to twice that??:mad::ugh::{

This means as HF3000 said that by the time you leave the airport after doing flt admin, get to a hotel etc, eat ,shower, etc your actual possible sleep time before you have to get up to go thru all that again and get back to airport means less than 4-5hrs sleep.
All prior to another 12-16hr day. :ugh:
That is insane.
Even doing a max 14 hrs duty in a highly safety critical job such as flying is nuts. Might be OK on an odd day but not as a very regular or daily event. As we all know sleep deficits add up and acute fatigue becomes chronic very quickly.

We have all heard how studies of fatigued pilots, truckies etc end up performing as if they are legally too drunk to drive a vehicle etc.
The CAO 48 max of 11 hrs with a possible extension to 12 almost looks pretty good when compared to these FAR limits and the standard? exemption most operators in Aust seem to work under.
Problem is a Max limit is just that, a maximum but when employers roster and expect you to go to those max limits on a daily basis then that is where all the problems start and grow from.
The basic physiology of the human body and its needs remains the same and does not change but the greed and expectations of the worlds industries increases constantly.

Would anyone here want a surgeon to start an operation even a minor one,on them when he has already been working 12, 14 or 16 hours straight and on maybe 4-5hrs sleep???

Probably not, no way, yet pilots need to approach and land in good or bad conditions at the end of that very long 12-16hr day or flt and carry out the highest risk portion of the flt, half asleep or on adrenalin.

If regulators worldwide and corporations and the public in general want high standards and safety levels they need to get serious about implementing realistic flt and duty limits and addressing fatigue management.
Not introducing FRMS that basically still allow you to fly half asleep and then incur managements wrath if you call in tired and unfit for duty as is your "strictly legal" obligation under medical regs.
Will that happen?? No of course not, because as others have said its about absolutely max profits and rock bottom min ticket prices all whilst grossly overworking and underpaying staff.
Great for corporate profits, until metal gets bent or ends up in a smoking hole.
Collateral damage I think its called, after all whats a hull loss and a few hundred lives really worth?? :(:rolleyes:
Compared to annual profits??

[Jack Ranga]

Would anyone here want a surgeon to start an operation even a minor one,on them when he has already been working 12, 14 or 16 hours straight and on maybe 4-5hrs sleep???

I'm not having a crack at you Aussie but I think they do this in the A&E don't they?