IR(H) Options

[miket_68]

Hi.

looking for IR training early next year.

I see 3 current options.

1. £55,000 straight to a IR provider.

2. £14,000 IR(A) then TR for Twin £14,000 + IR(A) to IR(H) £20,000 = £48,000

3. £11,000 FAA IR then TR for Twin £14,000 + IR(A) to IR(H) £20,000 = £45,000

Are my figures accurate ? are the routes valid and are they any other suggestions ?

Thanks.

Mike

[HillerBee]

There's a school in Sweden with better far better figures

[jonwilson]

Hands on 123,

did you do it that way?

[Jet Ranger]

hm, sounds very expensive. Ask OAA Stockolm Sweden (FFS plus H) about prices...

[flight beyond sight]

The usual price in the UK is £35K + VAT Including twin type rating

[Perra]

Single IR about 27500 pounds. I friend on mine will do it there in February next year.

[Peter PanPan]

How about doing it somewhere outside of the UK on a single piston engine for a couple thousand euros? :hmm:

JARland is a little wider than the British Islands... Here's an updated list of EASA members: EASA - EASA Members / Links (http://www.easa.eu.int/links.php) :ok:

[ec155mech]

Im sure Im not the only one that would like to see some examples from approved training organisations

so please post some links to places that offers an EASA approved IR (H) rating on piston engine whirlybirds

[Peter_CDG]

Try Home | Gestair Flying Academy (http://www.gestair.pt) ... They offer an IR-H for 19.200 Euro on a Schweizer 269

[Peter PanPan]

IR on a single Piston? Sure the CAA will recognise that? And will an UK offshore operator recognise it also?

Yes they would for the first question. Yes as well for the second question. For the third question: who cares whether the UK Offshore operators recognizes it or not? Once you hold a single engine IR you are then able to upgrade it to a multi engine IR once you complete a ME type rating, so that is 8 hours plus 5 hours versus 55 hours of instrument instruction of which 10 need to be on a Twin (On top of the 8 hours you need anyways for the type rating provided you have never flown a Twin before) Does this need that much more debate? :ugh:

[hands_on123]

Has anyone here actually done it like that? If so, did you save any money?

And don't forget... flying an single engine piston in VMC under the hood, is a lot different than flying a turbine twin in actual IMC.

[jymil]

Not convinced about the portugese outfit, I didnt find anything on their website about a HU300 IR Course. And the LongRanger in Denmark doesnt convince me either, mainly because they only have an FNPT1. Their website states about 32k EUR as cost. Doing 14.5h ME (8h TR plus 5h IR plus 1,5h checkride) for 1500 EUR/h costs you another 22k EUR, adding up to a total of 54k EUR, which is more than the 45K you have to pay for a ME IR course with FNPT2.

In general, the UK is not really attactive mainly due to the 20% VAT imposed on training. There are better options with 0% tax on training, and this makes a considerable difference for multi engine.

[Jet Ranger]

@Peter PanPan ... I absolutely agree with you, good sugestion:ok:

One more...you can do it on aeroplane, if you have PPL-A for example...for 7500 € (35 h FNPT plus 15 h aeroplane). Or, plus aditional 8000 € (or less) with PPL training (35 h) and 5 hours of Night Q...if you don`t fly aeroplane.

After everything, with type rating on ME helicopter, you need 10 h of transition training, from IR/SE(A) to ME/IR(H)!

[misterbonkers]

I'm doing the following route;

Converting CPL(H) to UK NPPL(A) minimum 3hrs plus test (already done)

Solo flying plus 20hrs dual to convert to JAA PPL(A) (of which I'll do at least 10hrs simulated IF)

UK IMC rating (15hrs Sim IF)

Night Rating (5hrs Night)

FAA PPL IR (using a lot of the above simulated IF flying towards hours)

Then I'm going to convert to JAA ME IR(H)

Circa £25k max using C150 and a none equity share in a DA40D and I could do JAA CPL(A) IR for not a lot more!

[Jet Ranger]

Yes, also good combination, (A) and (H).

[Peter PanPan]

@Jetranger & Misterbonkers

I also explored the IR bridge route a while ago, you can certainly save some bucks while becoming dual rated but it does take some careful planning and lots of time availabilty, not ideal if you're working full time. The best value option out there is in my opinion the SEIR, while it exists and those days are counted :p

[Bravo73]

If you are aiming for offshore, why would you want to get the ME IR yourself??? For the operators it doesn't make a difference whether you show up with SE or ME. They are putting you through an extensive type rating course anyway, and the ME IR in the end is just another ticked checkbox.

That's not necessarily the case, I'm afraid. The TR obviously requires a TRI/TRE, of which the UK offshore operators have plenty of. The SEIR to MEIR upgrade requires an IRI, which the operators might not necessarily have on staff (which would mean an additional cost and hassle). Which means that with certain operator(s), there is definetely a preference for MEIRs over SEIRs.

[Torquetalk]

The never-ending SE IR(H) versus ME IR(H) discussion...

It's in the JAR-FCL regs and it will probably be in the EASA licensing regs.

A good proportion of the guys and gals that go to wok for Norsk and Helikopter Services in Norway go the FAA IR(H) then JAR-FCL SE IR(H) route. Hard to know if UK (and other European operators?) struggle to put on the SE-ME conversion course or incorporate it in the sim and TR training due to lack of available personnel to make this easy. Best ask someone in-the-know at the operators you intend to apply to.

The question might also be why an operator would see any real difference between someone who has done FNTP training plus a TR and 10 hours and test in a squirrel (JAR), compared to someone who has done FNPT training, 40-odd hours IR in an R22 or similar, more FNPT training, then 15 or more hours single engine (FAA-JAR)? One has a bit of experience in a twin that they won't be flying offshore (and barely knows that aircraft), the other has a handful hours more IR time likely a bit of GPS approach practice. When faced with the first MPH/complex type, both will have their work cut-out.

TT

[jymil]

@TorqueStripe: Let me guess .. you work for Bristow. All other operators seem to require a ME IR as entry ticket. If you already have a ME type rating, then it is cheaper for the operator to pay for an additional one (8 vs 5 hrs).

Also, if you paid 20k EUR for the JAR SE IR conversion course, you´ve probably spent 10k EUR on the FAA IR rating before. This adds up to about the same price as directly doing their SE IR course.

[Peter_CDG]

I just found 2 other SE IR-H course providers; Helibravo Helicopters (http://www.helibravo.com/school) and Nortávia, Transportes Aéreos SA (http://www.nortavia.com)

They do a full IR on a R44

[Peter PanPan]

@Peter CDG: You're on good track :ok: I can personally vouch for Gestair, the Cascais bay is gorgeous, weather can be exceptionally fair, experienced and professional instructors, there are a couple of precision approaches nearby and a non precision one on the airfield, last but not least a lovely little restaurant nearby where you can get awesome grilled fish for a couple of euros :)

[Kevin Mclelland]

All,

I've been paying particular attention to this thread as I'm currently in the process of reviewing IR options.

As noted in previous threads the SE vs ME IR argument is well documented. However, as Peter CDG pointed out there are organisations in mainland Europe offering less cost prohibitive ways of achieving an IR - without paying UK prices.

My concern is the "validity" of an R44 IR in the eyes of the CAA. Unless organisations such as Helibravo are offering an FAA IR and therefore, I've missed something?

Done anyone have actual experience of gaining an IR through Helibravo or Nortavia which has subsequently been accepted by a north sea operator for purposes of employment?

[Torquetalk]

Hi Kevin,

Any course you are considering doing must be acceptable to the UK CAA if that is your licence-holding authority. Make sure the acceptance process is complete before undertaking any such course.

The question of whether NS operators favour/discrminate with respect to courses/authorities is a separate matter.

TT

[Peter PanPan]

@Kevin: Check my post of December 22nd. Yes is the answer, the UK CAA has issued and as I speak should still be issuing SE IR(H) based on training completed on single engine piston helicopter in a mainland european FTO. But better check with good ol'licensing dept: [email protected]

As Torquetalk said, the NS Operators discriminating with respect to course/autorities is clearly another issue. As it has already been suggested in the past, you may upgrade your SE IR(H) to a ME IR(H) after completion of an Initial ME type rating and the additional minimum 5 hours instrument instruction followed by a LST. And that could be done through a UK FTO, or Norwegian or Danish! At the end of the day you will get your ME IR(H) stamped on your UK CAA issued License and your ME training will have been conducted in one of the North Sea countries club, if that is really a concern for you. ;)

[Pandalet]

Several things from my own experience:

Consider EHC in Norway for an ME IR(H) - excellent school, and they compare very favourably to UK costs (0% VAT!). I believe you can now train there in an AS355 as well as the original Bo105. Accomodation on site, good selection of approaches at home base, and lots of budget airlines flying direct to their airport.

The CAA will require a copy of every single JAA approval (school, instructor, examiner, aircraft, etc. etc.) from a non-UK school, but assuming you have all the paperwork, it's no problem getting them to add the right things to your license (what? The school you chose was JAA-approved, right?). I assume this will continue, replacing JAA with EASA.

Of the 3 major offshore companies in the UK, only Bristow will accept a SE IR; CHC and Bond both require a ME IR to even consider you. Bristow, however, require a minimum of 500 hours ME time, if you didn't attend Bristow Academy, so you may not benefit from the SE IR anyway. The above applies to low-experience co-pilot applicants, obviously - if you have a bunch of useful experience, they'll probably make an exception on the SE IR rule.

[Peter_CDG]

Yes, according Lasors, section E 2.2, SE instrument ratings are introduced and available in the UK

[vaibronco]

If anybody interested, now (when I already spent a lot of money on real machines :*) this FTO is accepting from external FTOs bookings for IR, MCC etc.


Simulatore elicottero (http://www.simulatoreelicottero.it/)

[Jet Ranger]

Hmm, do thay have page in english? Only italian...:ugh:

[vaibronco]

As the business is growing, I believe they will load at least the english page.
If you need help, I can give them a ring. You can post here or PM me.

[cjbiz]

Of the 3 major offshore companies in the UK, only Bristow will accept a SE IR; CHC and Bond both require a ME IR to even consider you.

Actually in the last 6 months CHC in Aberdeen have employed 3 new FOs with SE IR(H). Incidently these were all completed at Billund Air Center in Denmark.

Having also completed this course and been subsequently employed by CHC in 2010 I can highly recommend this route. I reckon I saved myself in the order of £15k which is hardly to be sniffed at and the BAC course was excellent (don't believe a word from anyone who tells you it's not as worthy as a ME IR, the skills learned are very easily transferred into a big twin.)

[Curtis E Carr]

Assuming you mean Microsoft Flight Simulator, is it approved by the CAA/EASA?

[vaibronco]

Assuming you mean Microsoft Flight Simulator, is it approved by the CAA/EASA?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/72638451/are%20you%20f___g%20kidding%20me.jpg

Have a look here. They have their english page now.
Simulatore elicottero (http://inglese.simulatoreelicottero.it/)

[vaibronco]

Have a look at this one:

http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2012/2012-011-R/CS-FSTD(H)%20Initial%20Issue.pdf

[jymil]

You need a night rating and 50hrs cross-country before.

[Hot_LZ]

The requirements for the commencing of an IR (or should i say the ME TR) are away to change. If the ME TR is not completed before Sept 17 you will require 70 Hr PIC before you can start the TR course.

All fun and games with EASA at the moment.

LZ

[Stoey]

"The requirements for the commencing of an IR (or should i say the ME TR) are away to change. If the ME TR is not completed before Sept 17 you will require 70 Hr PIC before you can start the TR course."

Where does it state that? do you have a link anywhere?

[Curtis E Carr]

Just realised jymil you were referring to the requirements for the IR...it appears that the 50 hrs XC is for the issuance of the licence rather than to commence the course so I guess some of these 50 would be covered off during the IR itself?

Er.... not quite.

FCL.610 IR(H) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting
Applicants for an IR shall:

(a) hold:

(1) at least a PPL(H), and:

(i) the privileges to fly at night in accordance with FCL.810 i; or

(ii) an ATPL in another category of aircraft; or

(2) a CPL(H).

(b) have completed at least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as PIC in aeroplanes, helicopters or airships of which at least 10 hours shall be in helicopters.

(c) Applicants who have completed an ATP(H)/IR, ATP(H), CPL(H)/IR or CPL(H) integrated training course shall be exempted from the requirement in (b).

[Hot_LZ]

Stoey,

I do not have a direct link however it is happening. It has been communicated through a number of channels (mainly flight schools) and is also now stated in the IR providers Pre Reqs.

From Bond :
"If your application for the multi engine type rating, including evidence of having complied with all of the requirements for that rating, is not received by the CAA before 15th September 2012, it may not be possible for the CAA to grant the rating until you have 70 hours as pilot in command of helicopters."

LZ

[jymil]

@simondlh:
The 50hrs XC must be met at the time of application (i.e. before the checkride). You can log XC for any training flight which goes beyond circling your local airport for shooting approaches. However, if that can be logged as PIC is another question. Our national CAA says you can if you have a type rating. Also note that the majority of IR training takes place in the simulator. You can do just 10hrs in the aircraft, so this will not increase your XC time by much.

[Curtis E Carr]

Also note that the majority of IR training takes place in the simulator. You can do just 10hrs in the aircraft, so this will not increase your XC time by much.

It won't increase PIC time by anything as it will be logged as PUT.

[Curtis E Carr]

If you consider the path from PPL to CPL, as part of your hour building you could easily do 50 hrs XC PIC, then do the SE IR gaining a further 30 hrs, then do the night rating and be at 155 hrs ready to commence the CPL, saving yourself 30 hours worth of hour building.

Not sure that your plan will work.

FCL.610 IR(H) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting

Applicants for an IR shall:

(a) hold:

(1) at least a PPL(H), and:

(i) the privileges to fly at night in accordance with FCL.810 i; or

(ii) an ATPL in another category of aircraft; or

(2) a CPL(H).

And from CAP 804 Section 4 Part L Appendix 6

B IR(H) — Modular flying training course

1 The aim of the IR(H) modular flying training course is to train pilots to the level of proficiency necessary to operate helicopters under IFR and in IMC.

2 An applicant for a modular IR(H) course shall be the holder of a PPL(H) with night rating, or a CPL(H) or an ATPL(H).

Also. I'm sure you are aware of the following with regard to the night rating:

FCL.810 Night rating

(a)

(b) Helicopters. If the privileges of a PPL for helicopters are to be exercised in VFR conditions at night, the applicant shall have:

(1) completed at least 100 hours of flight time as pilot in helicopters after the issue of the licence, including at least 60 hours as PIC on helicopters and 20 hours of cross-country flight;

[Curtis E Carr]

You stated that you would do the IR then the night rating. I have just shown you why it won't work so your plan, as it is, fails.

Also, why do you think you are able to ignore the requirement to have 100 hours as pilot of helicopters after the issue of the PPL before you can do the night rating?

[Curtis E Carr]

Do you mean 120 hours Total Time?

[Curtis E Carr]

I thought so.

If you gain a PPL in the minimum time i.e. 45 hours, you then need another 100 hours before you can obtain the night rating i.e. total time required is 145hours. If it takes you, say, 60 hours to obtain a PPL, you still will need another 100 hours making it a total of 160 hours for the issue of the night rating.

[FullTravelFree]

Impressed with your work Simondlh Sherlock!

I have a question for the JAR-FCL wizards:

Does my IR-SE done in 2009 (no renewals taken since :*)
can be upgraded to ME without doing SE renewal?

I didn't find it in the regs initially, but one FTO wrote this to me,
when presenting me their offer.

I found out the following:

Holders of a SE IR(H) wishing to extend the IR privileges to a ME IR(H)
for the fist time shall comply with JAR-FCL 2.240 (a) (4)


JAR-FCL 2.240 (a) (4)

The holder of an IR(H) valid for a
single-engine helicopter type wishing to extend
the IR(H) to a multi-engine helicopter type shall
satisfactorily complete a course comprising at
least 5 hours dual instrument instruction time in
that type.

What type would that be? (I assume it's not 5 hours on the SE-IR ship)
are those additional 5 hours IR instruction
on top of the 5 hours which are needed for the ME conversion?

I'm confused, somebody help....? :confused:

Thanks! :ok:

FTF

[peroo]

JAR-FCL 2.240 (a) (4):

The holder of an IR(H) valid for a
single-engine helicopter type wishing to extend
for the first time the IR(H) to a multi-engine
helicopter type shall satisfactorily complete a
course comprising at least 5 hours dual
instrument instruction time of which three hours
may be in FS or FTD 2/3 or FNPT II/III, plus a
multi engine skill test in accordance with
Section 5 of Appendix 2 or 3 to JAR-FCL 2.240
on that type, at an approved FTO/TRTO.]


Hope this helps.

Peroo

[FullTravelFree]

...Thanks Curtis.
(while you answered I also found the right paragraph, finally...)

But the basic question still stands. Do I need to renew my IR SE yes/no?

I think the regs say no, and I really hope no.... but this FTO thinks yes. :ooh:


FTF

[Jet Ranger]

I think - yes. Because you are doing an extension from (valid) IR-H/SE to IR-H/ME.

JR

[QTG]

The SE IR must, as the regulation states, be valid. Your first ME type rating will take 10 hours, not 5, and as for all courses, these are minimums.

[FullTravelFree]

This stuff is confusing...
let me rephrase my question.

Where exactly does it state my IR-SE has to be valid within the 12 months period;
before I can do the ME - IR conversion (after getting a ME-VFR typerating first)?????? :confused::confused:

The following is taken from LASORS 2010
First ME typerating - appendix F:
SPH MET (H): 8 hours:
Using FS C/D: at least 2 hours helicopter & at least 10 hours total
Using FTD 2/3: at least 4 hours helicopter & at least 10 hours total
...and pass the test.

From SE-IR(H) to ME-IR(H) - appendix E:
SE IR(H) to ME IR(H):
5 hour dual instruction time of which 3 hours may be in a FS or FTD 2/3 or FNPT II/III
The holder of a SE IR(H) wishing to upgrade to ME IR(H) will be required to hold a multi-engine type rating
...and pass the test.

[Jet Ranger]

JAR:

First - you will need a type rating for that ME helicopter ( on which you want to fly your training). Or not, if you are already type-rated on that type of the helicopter.

Second - your SE/IR-H must be valid because you are doing "an extension" from SE to ME / IR ( it´s connected )

Third - after all of that, you will need to fly a least 5 h on ME helicopter for ME/IR-H

(I am not sure how much can be on FFS or FNPT, who knows ? )

JR:ok:

[Aucky]

Have you emailed [email protected]? Probably not a bad idea if you dob't agree with the responses on here. I'd be interested to hear the outcome. It's always good to give them something to do after those fees we pay :E

[Curtis E Carr]

Where exactly does it state my IR-SE has to be valid within the 12 months period; before I can do the ME - IR conversion (after getting a ME-VFR typerating first)??????

Forget LASORS. Part FCL is applicable in the UK from 17 Sep 2012

FCL.630.H IR(H) – Extension of privileges from single-engine to multi-engine helicopters

Holders of an IR(H) valid for single-engine helicopters wishing to extend for the first time the IR(H) to multi-engine helicopters shall complete:

(a) a training course at an ATO comprising at least 5 hours dual instrument
instruction time, of which 3 hours may be in an FFS or FTD 2/3 or FNPT II/III; and

(b) section 5 of the skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to [Part-FCL] on multi engine helicopters.

[FullTravelFree]

OK, clear case: IR SE needs to be valid.... :{

Thanks for help and references

FTF

[helimo]

I am trying to find the minimum amount of required training to lift my EASA ME IR from the 355 onto the 412.

Regulation 1178 should give the answer somewhere, but i cant find it:{
If I remember coreectly, its 2hrs training + skill test.


Can someone please give me a hint...

Thanks

[FloaterNorthWest]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the IR a standalone rating and isn't type specific so can be renewed on any type you are rated on during a LPC.

Are you rated on the 412? If not you would cover it during your type rating training.

[QTG]

AMC2 FCL.725(a)(e) - 2 hours IR training on type + Proficiency Check

[paco]

The EASA IR is type specific for helicopters

phil

[FloaterNorthWest]

Phil,

So no cross-crediting in accordance with Part-FCL Appendix 8?

I know in industry if a pilot holds an IR on more than one type then the IR is only usually revalidated annually on one and then cross-credited to the other. The next year the IR is revalidated on the other type and so on.

I've been away from the books for some time so it may have changed in that time.

[paco]

Ah, good point - you will probably need to speak to an IR ATO about that - Helicopter Services springs to mind.

Phil

[QTG]

Like I said, the AMC is clear - to extend the IR privileges to a new type for the first time, it's 2 hours IR training + Proficiency Check. That PC may be used to cross credit eg. to revalidate the IR for existing types on which IR privileges are already held.