Anyone familiar with UHMA, UHPP, UHWW?

[V1... Ooops]

Hello All:

I need to ferry a small turboprop from Western Canada to Asia in January, and have planned the flight such that I will land in UHMA (Anadyr/Ugolny), UHPP (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky/Yelizovo), and UHWW (Vladivostok/Knevichi). I'll fill up with fuel and stay overnight at each of these locations. I might need de-icing in the morning - but would much prefer to stuff the plane in a hangar overnight if one is available.

I'm using a dispatch company to assist with the details, and will be employing a handler at each of these airports.

I'm quite familiar with intercontinental ferries, but most of my experience has been in Africa, the Americas, and Europe. I have not visited this part of the Pacific Rim before.

Has anyone here in the Dispatch forum used any of these airports in the recent past (last couple of years)? Do you have any tips, advice, suggestions, or "lessons from the school of hard knocks" that you could offer?

Many thanks in advance for all guidance you can offer.

[VIKING9]

You have a PM.

[V1... Ooops]

Your PM was nothing more than a solicitation to ask me to use your company as my dispatcher. If you want to advertise on PpruNe, get a commercial account with the people who run this forum and buy a banner ad.

Don't use the PM facility to solicit business, it's inappropriate, and it's not what the PM facility is intended to be used for.

[Halcyon Days]

Well said!!

[galaxy flyer]

Hello, V1,

I've tech stopped and overnighted at UHPP. It is probably the most used airport in eastern Russia, very popular with bizjets that need the fuel stop. Handling was fine. You will need de-icing, I was there in late April and it snowed every night. Drive to town is about 25 minutes. Two hotels, the Avacha and the Hotel Petropavlovsk, not much to choose between them from our office's experiences. The Avacha is nearer the town center, if that matters. It has a restaurant and a Mickey D's across the street. Lots of high terrain, so plan out the arrival and departure carefully. Aeroflot transits daily from Moscow, so airport is maintained, but the runway will rattle your teeth. Petro is a navy town, you'll lots of uniformed kids.

Internet may not be available, we have had to rely on texting.

Haven't been to Vlad, but it is a major airport, I suspect no problems. Anadyr might be difficult, not widely used.

Don't plan on a hangar at UHPP. Alternates are a long distance away at all of these places. Magadan, Sakalin and Khabarovsk are usable, Khabarovsk is right on the Chinese border, so might not work for you.

Are you familiar with Russian ATC procedures? They might still be using QFE, ATC expects a "gear down" call prior to landing (yes, even if bolted down), you might get a vector at 90 degrees to the ILS and left to your own to intercept. Your ATC airways "clearance" will be nothing but a squawk code and a departure route, everything else is assumed to be your filed route.

Flight planning: be vigilant about entry and exit points, they can be sticky about this issue and they might restrict your routing.

[Bergkamp10]

UHPP (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky/Yelizovo), and UHWW (Vladivostok/Knevichi).

Both of these are OK for small planes. They should allow you to use a hanger overnight(they will charge you, about the same as de-icing to be honest)!

If I recall fees were about the same for IMM/CUSTOMS. Circ 2009, good drinking clubs at both stations, although go easy on the hard stuff if flying the next day or so ..:)

[V1... Ooops]

Galaxy Flyer, Bergkamp:

Thanks very much to both of you for sharing your experience and suggestions. A McDonald's in Petropavlovsk - wow, globalization marches on! I think I'll try the Avacha hotel in UHPP - I like being able to get out of the hotel and take a walk around whatever town or village I'm staying in when I make ferry flights, it provides a most welcome break from constantly thinking about aircraft logistics.

Unavailability of internet could be a headache - I use Jeppesen FliteStar to fetch weather reports and, especially, upper winds. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that one... I've found internet access in more remote places than UHPP in the recent past, so, maybe I might get lucky (or, more probably, maybe the McDonald's might have it...)

I'm least concerned about Vladivostok, because it is a major city. But, if anyone has any hotel recommendations (or warnings), or other hints and tips, I would be grateful to hear them.

Anadyr remains the unanswered question right now. It seems to be a pretty big town (at least, compared to most of the high Arctic villages we have here in Canada), and based on what I have seen in the YouTube video below this paragraph, it looks like a pretty nice town as well - although I do note that 99% of the images in the YouTube video were taken in the summertime. If anyone has been to that town and can offer suggestions about hotels, where to eat, facilities, transportation, hangars, de-ice availability, what the entry procedures were like, etc., I would be very grateful to hear from you.

Youtube video - Town of Anadyr

I ferried another brand new Twin Otter across the High Arctic of Canada around this time last year, but that was going eastbound (across the NAT) - it was a very enjoyable and stress-free flight - despite the fact that the plane was not equipped with de-icing boots - and I am hoping that this westbound flight to Asia will be equally pleasant. Here's a link to a little blog I wrote about that ferry, with pictures and commentary about the various small towns I landed in - just in case the information is of value to anyone who ever needs to go in the opposite direction: Across the Eastern Arctic Christmas Tour (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=69781&hilit=broughton&start=29).

I'll create a similar illustrated blog about this upcoming trip (scheduled to begin about mid-January) and append it here to this thread, to provide information for others who might consider following this same route in the future.

About Russian procedures: I have not flown in Russia since 1991, and I expect things have changed a bit since then (most especially with last month's transition to using conventional Flight Levels). The aircraft avionics can display metric altitudes concurrent with altitude in feet, so no problems there. Galaxy Flyer, thanks very much for the tip about the ILS intercept and the departure clearance, that is greatly appreciated and exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for.

Below is a screen-shot of the proposed routing for the Russian portion of the voyage. Suggestions, comments, and criticisms are welcome.

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/NorthernRouteDec182011.jpg

[VIKING9]

V1
If your dispatch company is so good as you mention, why are you looking for advice on here :confused:

I never asked you to use my company. I merely offered advice as someone who has visited these regions many times. I bet your dispatchers haven't !

I'll stop trying to help people in future, it's not worth the grief that some give back.

Good luck with the trip though.

[V1... Ooops]

V1 I never asked you to use my company. I merely offered advice as someone who has visited these regions many times.

Really? That's not what you said in your PM. Perhaps you might want to read your PM again to refresh your memory.

Below is the exact text of of the PM you sent me, complete, unedited, and unabridged, except for the red colour that I have added to highlight your 'advice'. Feel free to ask one any of the forum moderators or administrators to check your 'PM sent history' to confirm the veracity of my quote below.

If all you intended to do was 'offer advice', why use a PM? Why not post your reply right here in the forum conversation, like everyone else does?


Good morning

I notice you are using a dispatch company to assist you but do they have knowledge of the Russian airfields you mention ?

My company often provides ops support throughout Russia and we have an excellent relationship with an agent throughout the country.

Things to note:

Get a VISA prior to entering the country.
Take cash USD but some airfields won't take cash which you might think as odd !
How will you pay for fuel because again, some airfields won't take cash or cards and some will not even accept a UVAIR or Colt card.
Who will file the flight plan locally ?

If you want assistance at a low cost, and let someone take the strain of planning then get in touch and we can price it up for you.

My email is andy(at)naljets.com

Regards


I stand by what I said to you in post #3 above: Don't use the PM facility to solicit business, it's inappropriate, and it's not what the PM facility is intended to be used for. If you want to advertise on PPRuNe, get a commercial account with the people who run this forum and buy a banner ad.

[galaxy flyer]

V1

If the weather on the coast is inhospitable, Anadyr to Magadan (UHMM) is 800nm; followed by Khabarovsk (UHHH) or Sakhalinsk (UHSS) is doable. Magadan to Vlad is 1200 nm, by the way. UHSS or UHHH would break it up into shorter legs. All are usable, our guys use UHMM frequently, UHHH is very quick turn, large city, freighters use it a lot. I turned going into China, with deicing, in an hour. Handling very good, hotels downtown are used by Kalitta; can't speak for the quality, though.

The Avacha Inn, in Petro, has lots of safe walking tours available; the harbor is about 20 minutes away. As to internet, fax'ing is available.

GF

[V1... Ooops]

Thanks GF, that is very kind of you to suggest that alternate path, it is a great suggestion. It's actually 100 nm shorter than the original (coastal) route that I proposed above. :ok: I have a still-air range of 1,300 NM after allowing for 'ample' reserves, and would feel very comfortable planning UHMM to UHWW as a single leg, particularly if I route so that I pass overhead UHHH and can then do 'planning based on reclearance' when I pass overhead UHHH.

For the benefit of other forum members who may refer to this thread in the future for planning similar flights, I've posted an illustration of the inland route that you proposed.

Alternative Inland Route
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/AlternateRussianRouteinland.jpg

[monkey lover]

Hi

Looking at your routing, would it not be easier going UHPP-Japan avoiding flying over North Korea ?

Thanks ML

[galaxy flyer]

I can pretty much guarantee he won't be overflying North Korea. Entering into Japan from Sakalin Island might also be problematic--the Japanese haven't forgiven or forgotten that it is a Japanese island, not Russian.

Probably go over China toward Beijing and south or direct to Japan from Vlad and south depending on destination.

GF

[VIKING9]

China won't approve a turboprop overflight.

[Masif Eego]

[QUOTE]China won't approve a turboprop overflight./QUOTE]

Yeah they do..!!

Have ferried turboprops through their airspace a number of times, just need to know whom to contact.....:ok:

[VIKING9]

Message I received from CAAC on 22nd December 2011, just for your info:

CAAC will not allow this type of a/c operate into China because turboprop.

Type being PC12 and this is not a new rule so if there is a way round the problem, please do share :ok:

[galaxy flyer]

Perhaps, it is a single-engine issue?

GF

[VIKING9]

I was given the same reply for a B200. It seems they refuse unless plans are made to land at non congested airports, or fly at night. This then leads to issues with route planning/range/scheduling etc.

So if Masif has a way round these issues, I'm all ears :ooh:

[V1... Ooops]

China won't approve a turboprop overflight.

If that is a correct statement, it must be a relatively new change in policy. I have overflown China before in turboprops, as far back as 1991 and as recently as 2010.

Michael

[V1... Ooops]

...I can pretty much guarantee he won't be overflying North Korea...

I don't want to fly over the DPRK - no need to do that - but it sure would be nice if I could transit their FIR, well offshore of the country, as illustrated in the diagram below.

This would enable me to avoid landing in Japan, which can be a 'complex' activity. Ideally, I'll fly from Vlad to Busan, then from Busan onwards to Taiwan.

We'll see how the overflight permissions progress. If I don't get an approval to transit the DPRK's FIR, I'll need to make a pretty big turn to the west after leaving Vlad, and land somewhere in Japan. That will take me quite a bit off-route.

Michael

The Proposed Route
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/DPRKFIR.jpg

[VIKING9]

As I mentioned before, the message I received was on 22nd December 2011.

CAAC do make allowances and take each application on a case by case basis but in general, it seems these days they are less likely to approve.

Keep us posted on if you get approval.

BTW - someone mentioned not overflying North Korea. Any reasons ??

[Masif Eego]

Hey V1,

Have done quite a number of ferries similar to the one you're about to embark on....from B200's, DHC-8's and a couple of ATR's over a 15 year period. Last one was 6 weeks ago, and have never had a problem with Chinese clearances.

Remember to keep your request polite and non demanding, the chinese will go out of their way to help you out. Demand entry, and they'll tell you to go jump, or ignore you....Make sure you oversee the application and ensure all the details are included in the format listed in their AIP. They'll remember you if there's a next time..!!!

Another thing, and with all due respect to other posters here, don't believe the naysayers here, most of it is BS...many have successfully ferried acft through that region before you.

[VIKING9]

Masif, thanks for the info. What I posted is not BS. I just passed on the message received from CAAC before Xmas.

Happy New Year to all.

[Masif Eego]

Oh, forgot to add V1,

It'll be some of the best flying you'll ever do......:ok:

[VIKING9]

that is true Masif, I have done it but in jets and very big ones at that :ok:

[bravopapa]

For UHMA you may want to check immigration/customs requirements. If I recall correctly this airport is quite hard to use because of some special immigration/customs procedures.

[URRVCTR]

Hello!
Nice trip, but I'd like to add some comments.
I think it's really hard to get North Korea overflight permission as well as South Korea.
Which fuel Your aircraft flies? If avgas, I'm not sure mentioned airport have it.
I can link information from AIP, if You need.

[V1... Ooops]

Hello URRVCTR:

The aircraft uses jet fuel (TS-1 or similar), so I am OK there.

Thank you for your kind offer of information from the AIP - however, I already have the Russian AIP (all 4,000+ pages of it!).

I am quite looking forward to this trip and hope to get going on it soon. Just waiting for all the crew visas to arrive.

Michael

[V1... Ooops]

Hello Everyone:

I became involved in a discussion about this flight that was taking place on a Canadian aviation discussion forum (click here to go to it (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=79032#p741538)), and I have posted an account of my flight, hotel details, how it went, and all the information I think would be useful to others who might make such a trip in the future at that site.

Thanks to all of you (especially Galaxy Flyer) for your invaluable advice. It turned out to be a very pleasant and trouble-free trip.

Michael

[galaxy flyer]

V1..Oops,

Very happy to have been able to help with the suggestion on routing. Your postings on AvCanada were most helpful and interesting.

Cheers,

Mike aka the Galaxy Flyer

[acmi48]

Wait until spring before you go, winds should be kinder

[V1... Ooops]

If only I could... :)

Michael