Touch Down Auto Training.

[alouette3]

Hello all,
A bottle of 18 year old Scotch is riding on the reponse to this question!

Does any company with an AOC ,across the Pond, operating single engine helicopters,conduct full touch down autorotation training ? In other words, I am talking about a company, for example, owning Bell 407s or AS350s doing this on an annual or semi annual basis for it's pilots to stay current or qualified as per the JARs.
Not talking about training in flying schools.Just a regular company making money with single engine helicopters.
Thanks,
Alt3.

[GoodGrief]

There is a "No" here.
Were told by the boss it wasn't covered by the insurance.

[Sky Bear]

Yes, is the simple answer, every 6 months for all pilots.

Various profiles from 40ft to 1500ft always to the ground as well as engine failure on take off. Always have and guess we always will. Normally about 5 or so per check ride.

SB

[Phoinix]

I guess it depends on insurance and how many helicopters we got in the hangar. Normally the answer is no, because we can't afford the time it takes to repair a spread skid.

[Jet Ranger]

We say, cheapest way is to go in training organization.

[OvertHawk]

Always done several EOLs (with throttle retarded) during 350 / 206 OPC's in UK.

I suppose it does depend on the organisation and the TRE as to how adventurous they are, but the answer to your question is: "Yes - some but perhaps not all AOC operators doe EOL's to the ground during OPC's"

OH

[hueyracer]

Doing it every year-with my renewal checkride....

[Ascend Charlie]

Only power terminations - the true skill in an auto lies in the pilot carrying out a good entry, assessment of where to go, adjustment of the flight path to get there, and a flare to stop forward movement and control rate of descent.

What subsequently lies under the skids cannot be determined from 1000', and no amount of touchdowns onto a hard runway will affect your REAL auto onto sloping, rocky ground or a grass-filled swamp.

There is no economic sense in doing touchdowns on a check ride.

[fijdor]

No in Canada in general, at least for the last 10 years or so. Same reason here, insurance.

I do also agree with Ascend Charlie, we do power recoveries at the bottom.

The chances of you surviving the last 5 feet in an auto are pretty darn good if you can control your autos all the way down to that point and can make your intended landing spot. On the other end, not to sure about the aircraft, landing gear, crosstube etc and that could be expensive.

JD

[EN48]

Doesnt seem to meet your specification of "across the pond" but Bell Training Academy does virtually every auto to a touchdown. Been there several times and the only autos not to a touchdown were those associated with simulated enroute engine failures. They do a superb job of this IMHO. As to the value of autos to a touchdown, I buy the logic that the last five feet may not be all that important, but I can tell you that learning what to expect on a touchdown, getting the muscle memory and mindset conditioned, etc is something I have found quite valuable and an eyeopener.

[Hughes500]

Might regret saying this but people talk about bending ac in full touchdown autos ?? If a TRE or chief pilot or come to that any commerical pilot cannot do a full touch down to the ground on an airfield without bending it, then they are not fit to be flying it. Answer here is yes

[HillerBee]

We do them on every LPC and OPC, and several types.

[500e]

What are you trying to say H500, out with it:E:E
Every one to the ground on training & LPCs

[Sir Korsky]

I sure miss doing any autorotation practice at all outside the sim. Flying a medium twin just aint as fun and flying finesse is definately degraded as a result. When doing single engine touchdowns in the past, I could get the skids on a dime everytime. Not sure how good I would be now in a dual flame out:{

[snotcicles]

Full on autos at our company in Canada. The insurance company doesn't even ask. Twice a year. 206's and 407's.

[Pilot DAR]

100 hours of training in five types, with three operators of excellent repute in Canada, but I have never done a full on auto, other than from a hover.

[rotorrookie]

yep... the best way to do it...

[snotcicles]

"100 hours of training in five types, with three operators of excellent repute in Canada, but I have never done a full on auto, other than from a hover."
If I had not done a full on auto within 100 hours of training or training on 5 different types without doing a full on auto, I would question the "excellent repute". I have never received an endorsement without full on autos. Lots of them.

[Stan Switek]

When I first got my license, like everyone else, I did a ton or power recovery autos. Never did a full touch down auto till some time later when I lost an engine in flight at about 400' AGL and had to do one for real. Not a scratch on the aircraft. I was really lucky. Lots of good points for full down vs power recovery. Full downs are great but if you don't have the profile, air speed & rotor RPM nailed at 200'AGL my personal preference is to go around and try again rather than risk a bent aircraft. Just my two cents.

[tophelios]

Exactly the same in my mother company, in France, we try to do them on every LPC and OPC, but still upon captain discretion ...(weight, wind, traffic, landing stripe state, recent training...)

[feathering tickles]

A3, is the Scotch currently swinging toward or away from you?

[rotornut]

When I did my training at Trentair (now out of business), every auto with an instructor was a "full on". I trained in 300Cs and a 206. I must have done at least 30 including hovering autos. That being said they lost one 300C in a "full on" auto:sad:

[alouette3]

Feathering,
Looks as if it is straight down the middle! The bet was with an English gentleman who claimed that "every" company in Europe,operating single engines, does full touch down autos "regularly".My contention was , as in the US, most companies would shy away from that due to repair costs, out of service times and insurance costs associated with training incidents or accidents.
Well, I have shown him this thread and we decided to downgrade to a 12 year old Scotch and share the cost!:{

Nonetheless, please keep this discussion going as I am getting valuable input here to build a case for at least a once a year event in a fleet aircraft.
Alt3

[Ready2Fly]

I did my CPLH training on AB206 and all autos were with power recovery ... all but the one at the end of my CPLH checkride :ok:

The autos done in R44 with the company on LPC/OPC are to the ground. With another company the ones in B206 and AS350 are with power recovery.

I agree with most of the people here: It is good for your confidence to do them to the ground but not worth the risk of damaging the helicopter.

If you auto an AS350 to 3-5 feet with flare, reduced forward speed and power recovery, you will survive the day the engine quits (all parameters being equal).

There is no simulation of the 'real thing' ... add some bad weather, rough terrain and adrenalin because you know this one is for real and it will definitely be a different experience compared to the ones you did in training.

[Sky Bear]

Ready to fly have to agree with you.

Having gone to the ground with no engine in a 206 I can tell you it is very different to training when there is no chance to go around or flare recover. If you get the battery off as well then it is very quiet, you can not talk to the person next to you and all you seem to hear is your own breathing. That said it is over fairly quickly and if you have done enough practice then it seems to happen before you even know you are doing it.

SB.

[erang5]

does any one have recomandations for a full touch down Auto training facility in Europe? mainlly for BH 206B & Ls day and night (NVG)

[ShyTorque]

During my time as an RAF student (1978/9) and latterly as a QHI, our training was for every one to be to the ground. In fact, once the speed select (Whirlwind 10) or throttle (Gazelle) was retarded, it was prohibited to advance it again until on the ground. So, in effect they were for real.

As students on the Whirlwind we were required to do a whole sortie of solo engine off landings (IIRC, this was with a total of about 40 hours of the 110 hour course completed).