Saying your Squawk code.

[Togalk]

Hey boys and girls, I don't know where this got started but saying your squawk code when changing frequency's is NOT required!!! Neither is saying what position you are at or going to!!!
From the Middle East to most places in Europe you are under radar coverage. The controller knows your code, where you're at and where you are direct to. So lets just stick with what is required.
Call sign and altitude.
Cheers.

[kennedy]

Correct, unless you are entering Iraqi or Indian airspace.

Oh well non standard ICAO radio pretty much rules in the middle east.

What to do?

[I.R.PIRATE]

Often get asked our squawk code when checking in with a new station. Especially in Cairo FIR, which is radar controlled. Often in Riyadh FIR which is radar controlled, and even Bahrain FIR when its really busy. So one doesn't need to mention it when checking in, but just because its a radar environment, doesn't mean the controller might not require it at some stage.

[Togalk]

I get asked for a wind check occasionally too, it doesn't mean I tell every controller the wind.
If they want the squawk code they can ask for it. I flew from the UK to AUH today thru Iraq and Bahrain and didn't say or was never asked my code once.

[latetonite]

Checking in with the UAE, you better stick to callsign, and FL, or passing and cleared level.
Although recently they also get busy with the" one one thousand, eleven thousand" thing, which I never got straight.:sad:

[ferris]

It's technical, but between certain units we are required to identify you, and other units we are not. eg between UAE and Bahrain, no need for ident. Between Bahrain and Kuwait, ident required. And it is enforced by the 'higher ups'.
Ideally, pilots would know when to include the squawk with check in. However, it's not reasonable to expect that as the rules of wherefors and whys are pretty stupid. So, Togalk, if guys want to say their squawk at every change, let them. It actually helps us when busy because we don't have to go back and ask for the ident or 'say squawk'.

If you are bored and want to know why: The agreement between Bahrain and Kuwait does not require radar link sharing, it is just a 'nice to have' so it is not guaranteed. Just because it is functioning 99.9% of the time doesnt matter. Kuwait may turn off their radar at any time without telling anyone else, and Bahrain can only see inbound traffic from Jeddah/Riyadh via the Kuwait link. However, the overlapping covering of each others radars in UAE and Bahrain means permanent and constant radar handoffs.

[John21UK]

One thought, could it come from the large stream of Latin American pilots that came to the M.E over the past +/-2 years? (not meant negative, just a different way of operating in that region compared to the M.E.)

[CanadaRocks]

Ferris it's not a big deal here yet, but in Europe, it adds to congestion on the radio.

[Xaxa]

Are you serious? Adding to the congestion?

Yes, Varmint, is adds to the congestion.
How many flights do you have flying over Europe at any given moment?
And how often do any ATC controllers over Europe ask for your squawk code when checking in with them? Almost never.

[Togalk]

How many flights do it? Only the Middle East and Indian carriers do it!! Thats why I started this post in the first place.

Jeppesen Air Traffic Management 4.11.3 Radiotelphony Procedures for Air-Ground Voice Communication Channel Changeover

When so prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, the initial call to an ATC unit after a change of air-ground voice communication shall contain the following elements:
a. designation of station being called;
b. call sign;
c. level, including passing and cleared levels if not maintaining the cleared level;
d. speed, if assigned by ATC.

Like i said earlier I get asked for a wind check OCCASIONALLY so does it mean I should just decide on my own to tell every controller the wind? Its NOT required DONT say it!!!

The guys here have a hard enough time just doing basic radio airmanship. Like waiting a few seconds after switching frequencies before talking, or saying your passing and cleared flight levels. Lets not confuse them any more.

CR is correct, adding your own little thing like saying "The" Emirates, or "THE" Etihad or saying your squawk just adds to the congestion.

[Landflap]

And, is it necessary to give callsign on every transmission? Establish comms, yes. Two way established, not necessary. When handed over after a long period of two way, is it necessary again ? My CAP 21 well worn & after 38 years. I thought I knew it all but got a right old chewing out on yesterday's Line Check ! ATC told me " Continue now with.....on......." I kept saying, for example, 'Frankfurt on ......, cheers mate, have a good'n". Oh and finally, Checker admonished me for continually saying "Roger, wilco". He told me that "Roger " means, I understand & will comply. "Wilco" means I will comply. So, I was saying, in effect, " I understand & will comply, I will comply", followed by a unruly "Cheers mate, have a good'n". Oh dear. Nearly grounded for R/T refresher Training. Think the flying went ok though !

[Guy D'ageradar]

Most of us fly to 6 continents with different ATC wants and wishes....some more picky than others.

Problem is, each and every country (and, to an extent, unit) has their own rules - which, in certain parts of the world are a) written by cretins and b) enforced, to the letter, by the same cretins (and their minions). Little leeway exists. It's nothing to do with being picky!

[WELCO]

Its NOT required, DONT say it!!!

That makes a long story short. It's all about adhering to the rules guys! I don't have to say this, do I?:suspect:


He told me that "Roger " means, I understand & will comply. "Wilco" means I will comply

Seriously?!! A check captain said this??:ugh:

Roger: I have received your message..ONLY received it!
Wilco: I have understood your message and will comply with it!

Now your Checker is the one who should be grounded for R/T!

[kotakota]

I have just left the ME and know that many controllers ask you to confirm your squawk ( not UAE I hasten to add ) . When you are tired it is just easier to say it . Perhaps the various ATCs could agree on this procedure ?

[alwayzinit]

"Say Squark and verify level" whilst wobbling one's head............every bleeping freq change


But if you want peeps to stop clogging up the airwaves can we PLEASE stop the Salaams, Giddays, Morning, Checkin' in, etc etc etc and any other polite HOO HA.

At least a squark code has some point!

Coat , hat , door!

[Xpatpilot]

I did ask the very same questions directly to ATC controller the other day. Answer: "It is not required but it helps..." so why not?

[Togalk]

Why not? Cuz it's not required and it adds to the congestion. That's why not.

[tothepoint]

If you are all so concerned by these minor RT points or inaccuracies I suggest you get a hobby or a stiff drink!!

Who cares - you are making the job harder than it is!! (possibly less enjoyable if you are a check airman and this is the ****e you debrief about)

Saying G'day, Morning, evenings salams whatever is great.

If you are more worried about RT procedures because some pilots say the squark to eliminate certain FIR stations asking it in the next call, get a life a I say. Clogging up the frequency? I think not, your aircraft will not stop flying if you cannot make a call to the appropriate state at a boundary crossing due to congestion!!! They'll get too you eventually.

Is this what flying has come down too? Get a life and enjoy aviation for what we started out to to, fly, and enjoy the craft we work hard at!!

I know the Aussie's and Kiwi's are pedantic about RT but at the end of the day with so many nationalities flying around the middle east does it really matter if squark is stated....

[Dixons Cider]

so next time Bahrain asks me for my squawk because I didn't give it to them on first contact - I'll refuse and say TOGALK told me not too because I'm clogging the freq :ugh:

[whossorrynow]

Answer: "It is not required but it helps..." so why not?

As someone said earlier this would depend on where it is being done. Every five minutes over Europe with Maastricht handovers is probably not the place. On the other hand what might help the next controller is to know what short-cut/direct routing a previous controller has put us on. This is hardly ever mentioned on the handover but amounts to a reclearance from the original flight plan. Aircraft are often heard over Europe being asked where they are tracking to but I don't ever recollect being asked for my squawk.

Why do people insist on requesting the Flight Level when asking for ATC clearance away from homebase? Very few Ground Delivery units around the network want to know what it might be - although as we know Dubai does. Why? It's just luck if we get the level we want and Bahrain etc don't seem to know what level we might have requested anyway, so apparently the message is not being passed along either. It just blocks the Delivery frequency with unnecessary verbage. If other ATC units don't want it why does Dubai? And when will Dubai get PDC/DCL?

And then there's Dubai Approach inbound...

[GlueBall]

It's more annoying when pilots first call: "Request" and then pause...rather than to state their request on the initial call-up....Why? Because the controller may actually hear you the FIRST time. Get it?

It's also annoying when during multiple verbal exchanges in the same brief conversation, pilots keep repeating their full call sign, over and over, like a parrot. Needless to say, there is such a thing as VOICE RECOGNITION...because you had just talked to the controller seconds earlier, no? ...Would someone else be masquerading with your identical voice? :ooh:

[Rule3]

Agree 100% on the :mad:Request.....Just say what you want.:}

As for :mad:BLOCKED. I will realise the message has not been received and will repeat it. So PLEASE do don't waste more RT time by saying BLOCKED.:ok:

[HeathrowDictator]

At least "BLOCKED" is not just confined to the area I'm working in then! It gives me some satisfaction after I've issued an instruction, heard someone say "BLOCKED" only for the original recipient to read it back in full!

Most of the time there's a side tone for us ATCOs anyway which lets us hear when someone else is transmitting at the same time...but some R/T discipline (from both sides) wouldn't go amiss!

-HD-

[Gulf News]

Hey boys and girls, I don't know where this got started but saying your squawk code when changing frequency's is NOT required!!!

This is where it comes from. The scene is any given day the skies over India .

UAE 500: Mumbai Emirates 500 position Nobat FL350.

Mumbai ATC: Jeteweys 223 contact Nagpur 123.9

Jet Airways 223: 133.9 Namshakar Jeteweys 223

Unknown: Babu is that you ?

Jet Airways 223: Hi who is that ?

Unknown: Siti

UAE 500: Mumbai Emirates 500 FL350

Jet Airways 223: Hi Siti how are you.

Unknown: Cant complain you know.

UAE 500: Mumbai Emirates 500

Jet Airways 223: Ok happy landings Captain

UAE 500: Mumbai Emirates 500

Unknown: You too. Say Hi to Raj.

Mumbai ATC: Emirates 500 Mumbai I have been calling you for the last 5 minutes Werify(sic) Skwak(sic) and level. Next time maintain a listening vatch(sic).:rolleyes:

[six7driver]

Togalk you are a bitter, anal little man. It's people like you that wish to turn this job to the the cr*p it has become in this part of the world. Worried about this instead of worrying about why your company reams you out every month @ a hundred hours a month. Why don't you change your screen name to CALLSIGN NAZI. If I had to fly with you I'd press 2. HA HA now go start some other crappy thread on this supposedly professional pilot forum. :E

[Togalk]

Ninja, it looks like your life is just as pathetic as mine. You took the time to read and respond to the post. Moron.

[Oakape]

Gulf News, did you make a recording on a trip & then transcribe it? Word perfect! :ok:

[Togalk]

Haha six7 you're funny. I think I may have flown with you before back in the great white north. And if I remember correctly, you were the one that people hated flying with not me.

Most of the comments here were informative and helpful until your "professional" post appeared.

No go find another thread to ambush.

Cheers.

[Over and over]

Can't believe the number of times I have to repeat myself (are the transmitters that bad or are people not listening?)

Totally sick of pilots of a certain area saying "confirm" after I've read the clearance and acknowledged the correct readback!! Cut it out!!!

[VoxPopuli]

ATC: "Birdseed 69, report squawk and level passing."

BS69: "Estimating ORSAR at 2123, registration IDIOT"

:ugh::ugh:

[I.R.PIRATE]

If we could ditch the ragmatullah barakatu habibi hayakallah hatikallah ghoi feraitallah inshallah inshallah on the radio, things would go so much smoother.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Yup, ending each read back in the form of a question, or saying confirm after every single transmission.

Get real people, and open your ears for a change.

[xbleedstart]

Togalt,

If you think checking in with ATC and giving a squak code is causing congestion you might want to look at the congestion you have cause on this post!
I will put up with someone relaying their squak code before the ones which start their transmission with "a very good morning"

Squaking 7600

XBS

[fatbus]

Just goes to show you how bad the profession ( if you can call it that) has got when we see the childish behavior of little boy pilots, grow up guys !

[Shrike200]

OP posts reminder on what correct procedure is in order to reduce congestion on frequency.

OP gets dumped on for being an idiot.

Aaaah, pprune! :ok:

Ignore the sceptics. The word for the day is 'brevity'!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Approaching the Cairo FIR boundary last night, I pondered whether to give my squawk code to the controller on initial contact - but then I thought Togalk might be in the air, and decided that I wouldn't want to spoil his night.

So I contacted Cairo on 126.6 and the first thing he asked for was....yeah...my squawk code.

As I was saying earlier, its most definitely not required, or necessarily correct, but once you get to know where they always ask for it, I can't see anything wrong with checking in with your squawk, if you KNOW its a sector where ATC always asks you anyway. That way you are cutting out an entire extra request/reply transmission.

[VoxPopuli]

Hey boys and girls, I don't know where this got started but saying your squawk code when changing frequency's is NOT required!!! Neither is saying what position you are at or going to!!!
From the Middle East to most places in Europe you are under radar coverage. The controller knows your code, where you're at and where you are direct to. So lets just stick with what is required.
Call sign and altitude.
Cheers.

Togalk, below is the definitive guide to squawk code usage for the UAE FIR:

1. If you enter the UAE FIR via either ORSAR or DARAX (Tehran FIR), say your squawk and level/level passing.

2. If you enter the UAE FIR via either KITAP or TANSU (Bahrain FIR) say your squawk code and level.

3. If you depart DXB/AUH/RAK etc, say your squawk code and level passing on first contact with APP.

4. Should you ever find yourself departing from Al Dhafra, say your squawk code and level/level passing on first contact with Al Dhafra APP and UAE ACC. Highly unlikely though.

Edit to add: Feel free to say good morning.

[PanPanPeter]

flight planned route and nothing has changed to your routing - it has started creeping into UAE radar now
The book of rules that the UAE ACC operate under specifies that the route of every aircraft must be confirmed which means a full route clearance from FIR entrance to exit is a requirement. This is not a new thing. I am actually surprised at how often the flight plan does not match the intended route of the aircraft including some fairly major airlines. Unfortunately the route is often read back but not followed just as often. As an example, tracking after ORSAR cleared via PEBAT for DESDI, read back is as cleared for PEBAT and the aircraft turns for ITITA. While that may not sound like an issue, when there is any holding going on, the points are used as vertical insertion points for the pattern and the anus WILL pucker if a turn to ITITA occurs. This is mainly a problem with Russian Fed/Ex Soviet aircraft.

The requirement to identify aircraft from unit to unit is laid out quite clearly in ICAO documentation as well as any local differences in identification procedures. For example, the method of observing a coupled assigned code in an expected position is not a valid method of identification by UAE hence where we do not have agreements in place, you need to say your code. Again, this is nothing new. Not wanting to start a war, I would have though that airlines would train their staff on route specific requirements such as these and you would know exactly what each unit is going to want.

[PanPanPeter]

There is no question that there are many non standard things going down around these parts. But to be frank, if you do the most procedurally correct thing every time, you should not have an issue. If you are asked for more, give/do it. Doing the wrong thing just because everybody else does is not a good thing in a safety critical indutry like Aviation and that goes for both sides of the mic.

Be the change that you wish to see in the world.” ― Mahatma Gandhi

[ferris]

Staynes (and others) And another point, why does Bahrain insist on telling you your flight plan route and getting you to repeat it back Because we are required to do so by our employer- under threat of dismissal. Why if we can fly from USA / Australia / Far East / South America all the way back to the gulf without having to repeat our flight plan route once I presume because the tight airspace design in the BAH FIR means that if you deviate unexpectedly, there is a fair chance it will get ugly very quickly. It is also the type of knee-jerk reaction that a manager applies after an incident (or series of incidents) that shows he has done something about it. eg. EK123 enters BAH at BALUS, exiting via IVONI, would be expected to route UL768, however, turns left after BALUS to follow N969. Why wasn't this detected from the flight plan, you say? Because there were 2 flight plans for that flight, and the assistant picked the one he thought it should be, which is different from the one the crew had. How is it possible for a flight to have more than 1 plan, you say? Good question, is the answer (from our end). The record I have seen is 27 flight plans submitted for 1 flight.
The single biggest problem for unexpected route deviations in BAH occurs for a/c tracking on N929, and who are expected to remain on that airway until SILNO. Some turn left at TOBLI to overfly KFA (which they shouldn't do) and almost immediately cross the descending QR arrivals on UN318. Large pucker factor. Note: Some a/c, after reading back the required route, subsequently turn left at TOBLI anyway, which does leave you wondering.

Hope this explains a little of the whys and wherefores, some of which are grey :)

[White Knight]

As for the Indians, who knows, credit the English

Haven't yet heard ROG from LATCC:D:E:D:ok:

[ask26]

One that I encountered today, was a Captain saying that the minimum rate of descent I have to do is 900fpm, else the traffic above will not get further descent clearance and we can stuff up their profile.

Anyone know of any reason why this may or may not be true? I was trying for a CDA, doing 500fpm at 7000ft, on profile at the time.

[SassyPilotsWife]

And here I thought a Squwak code was to let ATC know to warn your girlfriend and advise her you're 100 miles from home and so is the wife! Code 68. I will owe ya one baby.. she's not flying back to her family for at least a month!

Silly me...:E

[ferris]

ask26; anyone above you being vertically separated is not landing on the same runway. Captains are notoriously bad at air traffic control. Ensure you use correct CRM when you point this out.
sassypilotswife- at last, some sense on this thread.
Quote (from a very wise friend) "mobile phones are transponders for wives- they squawk, you ident".

[Gulf News]

anyone above you being vertically separated is not landing on the same runway.

In my experience traffic descending in the BUBIN or DESDI holds are invariably going to land on the same runway.

This topic has been covered before in other threads but perhaps a definitive answer from ATC would put it to rest. At a forum between Dubai ATC and a body of EK trainers last year the ATC boys asked for 1000'/min minimum rate of descent to free up airspace above. As a result of the STAR and other airspace constraints traffic inbound to DXB are normally well below profile, to mitigate this the crews reduce the rate of descent when they can. Perhaps if the controller wants a particular rate to achieve separation he or she should make it a requirement when giving the descent clearance.

[ferris]

As I said, Gulf News, Captains are notoriously bad at ATC. You are a Capt, right? Anyone at 7000' trying to do a CDA is not in the BUBIN or DESDI hold. Perhaps if the controller wants a particular rate to achieve separation he or she should make it a requirement when giving the descent clearance. I agree. Which is why a Capt doing the ATC is a bad idea.

[Gulf News]

Apologies. Captains are notoriously bad readers too. I missed the 7000' reference in ask26's post. In light of that I agree with you.

[vinayak]

Just because they don't say it in your part of the world make it right :)


Squaking 2012... Cheers guys!

[ralphmalph]

From a helicopter pilots perspective, in Afghanistan and other areas where there is alot of traffic in a small area, being verbose on the radio causes huge problems.

If everyone (USA, UK, UAE, Civillian) uses the same calls and procedures, traffic flows very well. It only takes one person to deviate, and all bets are off.

As aviators we all know well how long a certain call takes to make, and if the controller plays the game as well...things can be very slick.

Trying to get through Heathrow as a helicopter crossing 2 active runways requires timing and accuracy to get the correct radio call in!

The other maxim I suppose is that common sense should prevail! But when you are a new guy, use the handrail (Standard Op Procedures) provided!

Ralph